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user1804599
10:00 PM
Only Bartek but he's gone.
 
user1804599
@Puppy Java has surprisingly many users.
 
what, did he ragequit SO
 
@Puppy Terrible?
 
@Puppy exams or something
 
user1804599
He ragequit Lounge.
 
user1804599
10:00 PM
TRAITOR
 
@rightføld That's what the "most" is for
 
He made his own C++ Chat
 
He didn't ragequit afaik
 
user1804599
He's still active on GitHub.
 
(Not the "Lounge"!)
 
user1804599
10:00 PM
He starred rust-lang/rust yesterday.
 
there are some terrible technologies that gain amazingly many users
 
@Puppy In what way is OpenGL terrible?
 
Java, for example, is terrible because it forces the user into a straitjacket, but that's just fine if the user was originally a metaphorical axe murderer
2
 
dat analogy
 
user1804599
@Puppy The web :D
 
10:02 PM
@Puppy I'm stealing that
 
user1804599
@TonyTheLion You can't; it's private.
 
all rights reserved by the Puppy
feel free to request a paid licence
 
Puppy™
 
Its too long for Twatter
but it was funny, nevertheless
 
ah just cut "metaphorical", and "but", and a couple others you could probably get away with
 
10:04 PM
:effort:
 
you suck
you steal my greatness and then you can't be arsed to take it?
 
Try Harder™
 
holy shit, I've really gotta crank on finding a place of my own
winter's getting it's fat ass over here now
ohb yeah, drugs.
 
it fits if I take out the "for example, " part
 
grr java
 
10:07 PM
Cat I'd like to you explain the tag line of this room?
 
So Apple is making a new Graphics API called "Metal"
 
Ell
ugh what is it with everyone making their own graphics API!
 
^
 
Ell
this will be the end of graphics on linux unless steam os pushes hard enough
 
They said that OpenGL had too much overhead
 
10:07 PM
@Ell all the current ones are shit and they want to continue that trend?
 
@TonyTheLion Not mine
 
Ell
why don't they all collaborate on one open standard?
like the next opengl thing
 
@CatPlusPlus sounds like something you would say
 
OpenGL is fine for me
It's the only multi-platform API I've seen
 
@Ell Graphics on Linux had a beginning?
 
10:09 PM
in the beginning there was a button
 
Ell
@Puppy opengl on linux is fine
 
@Puppy Steam OS?
 
yesterday, by sehe
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: All butans have been rebutted [c++] [c++11] [c++14] [c++-faq]
 
@Ell Simple. OGL/DX were created to abstract multiple hardware vendors platform-specific APIs. There's no more need for that because there's only two hardware vendors of note. Going from two APIs to two APIs is not a problematic complexity increase.
 
Ell
10:10 PM
@Puppy there are more than two hardware vendors of note
 
furthermore, since Moore's Law is dead (in terms of a single thread) it's more important to find new programming techniques that can handle inherently sequential operations more efficiently.
 
Ell
look at qualcomm, exynos, arm, all the mobile ones
 
@CatPlusPlus I'll start running ads as a part-time prophet
 
who pretty much all licence NVidia or ATi chips.
all current-generation consoles use ATi graphics chips.
 
1157
A: Why do game developers prefer Windows?

Nicol BolasMany of the answers here are really, really good. But the OpenGL and Direct3D (D3D) issue should probably be addressed. And that requires... a history lesson. And before we begin, I know far more about OpenGL than I do about Direct3D. I've never written a line of D3D code in my life, and I've wr...

 
Ell
10:12 PM
@Puppy also just because there are only 2 vendors, why wouldn't you abstract over them?
 
@Puppy No, they don't.
 
@Puppy Not really.
 
@Ell Because it hurts my performances and I can't get performances for free anymore.
ok, well, it's not really fair to say that there are only two vendors of note
Intel's embedded chips are doing better and better
 
yea these days you have to pay for lunch
 
There's also considerably variation in desktop hardware over time. For example, not all nVidia GPUs are even close to identical to each other--they've built them with (at least) three distinct overall architectures--a fact that most miss precisely because almost nobody ever programs directly to the hardware.
 
10:13 PM
The reason D3D is dominating the market is because Microsoft launched a F.U.D. campaign back in Vista
 
Ell
@Nooble combination of michealsoft and opengl being silly also
 
@TonyTheLion specifically:
Sep 24 at 12:22, by Bartek Banachewicz
See you in a month. Love you all :3
 
@Nooble It predates Vista by quite some time.
 
Ell
but I do think opengl is the way
 
@Nooble Read the linked answer.
 
10:14 PM
@sehe Thanks for this.
 
Ell
You can achieve lower driver overhead with opengl currently (iirc?)
 
fuck @rightføld!
 
Ell
But moreover it's an open standard
 
but the Moore's Law problems are very real.
 
Ell
@Puppy where are the moore's law problems in graphisc?
 
10:15 PM
@Nooble I'm sure it has nothing to do with, for example, not offering a buffer swapping function. Or not offering DSA for 20 years.
 
I wonder how the industry is ever going to solve this parrallellization/concurrency thing?
 
@Ell Because the vast majority of existing rendering technologies can't handle the CPU side of rendering from more than one thread. And Moore's Law is dead in terms of the performance of a single thread.
@TonyTheLion A huge sum of money.
 
I'm not sure there will ever be an "easy" way to make software that's properly parallel or concurrent
 
sure there is.
 
@TonyTheLion føk rightføld, FTFY
 
10:16 PM
lol
 
you get some guy who's smarter than you and paid to do nothing but work on this problem, and then you steal licence his code.
 
@Puppy True. Point is, OpenGL did suck back then, and in the time that it did suck compared to D3D, everyone switched to D3D. Everyone became familiar with D3D, and even though OpenGL 3.3+ almost certainly has all the features D3D has, no one uses OpenGL for desktop development anymore.
 
the same way we solved every other difficult programming problem.
 
It may even have more, and is cross platform
 
@TonyTheLion I'd guess a lot the same way they've deal with serial computation: in quite a few different ways, most devoted to fairly narrow niches, and the majority of them following Sturgeon's law.
 
10:17 PM
@Puppy you clever clogs
@JerryCoffin You're probably not wrong.
 
@Nooble DSA not core until, is it 4.5? 3.3 can suck a dick.
 
@JerryCoffin :D
 
aand secondly
cross-platformity is not of tremendously high value, really.
 
Ell
@Puppy I'm a little confused. What do you mean the cpu side of rendering? Afaik most graphics stuff is gpu bound
@Puppy How come?
 
@Ell It was. Then Moore's Law died for single-threads, but not for GPUs.
 
Ell
10:18 PM
@Puppy I mean I thought it still is now.
I thought that was the whole point of offloading things onto the GPU
 
@Ell Because all the gamers on desktop are on Windows.
 
@Puppy In my opinion, it is of tremendous value. Especially since you can't even use D3D for mobile development.
 
Ell
or are you telling me the "offloading" is the bottleneck now?
 
@Ell The degree to which graphics is GPU bound varies widely. It's certainly not a given that it's (even close to) always true though.
 
Ell
@Puppy graphics isn't just about gaming
 
10:19 PM
and if you target some other platform
then you're pretty much bound to whatever the OS vendor gives you anyway
 
So many terrible game devs in that question
shudder
 
Mobile gaming is a thing now. Completely ignoring it by choosing to use D3D is a horrible decision.
 
Ell
@Puppy which with a cross platform api is the same across all vendors?
that is the whole point of cross platformedness isn't it?
 
right, except it's totally not at all.
 
Ell
Why not?
 
10:21 PM
@CatPlusPlus "terrible game devs" sounds awfully close to completely redundant.
5
 
Ell
opengl is the same across mac, windows and linux
 
well first, half the useful functions are vendor-defined or extensions anyway.
 
@JerryCoffin lol
 
@JerryCoffin hahaha
 
like, I dunno, DSA, or swapping buffers, or windowing interactions.
 
Ell
10:21 PM
@Puppy in general? in opengl?
 
and secondly
even if you have a desktop-targeting project that uses OGL, you cannot just magically target ARM.
you have to rebuild your entire user interface.
and from a graphics perspective, the device is so different in terms of what features it has and what loads it can handle, you cannot not refactor your rendering code to handle it differently.
 
Ell
@Puppy we've coped without DSA for a long time. Also opengl doesn't claim to be about windowing.
 
who cares?
 
@Puppy According to Steam hardware survey, 95% of all gamers have OpenGL 3.1+
 
10:23 PM
devs need their rendering API to work with windowing.
 
Ell
@TonyTheLion direct state access
 
fanks
 
if you don't claim to be about it, you don't claim to be about a thing that people need that your competitor offers.
 
Ell
@Puppy Right. So what you're saying is that the graphics api you wrote isn't cross platform
 
@Puppy Sane people use a different Windowing library, for example, GLFW
 
Ell
10:23 PM
opengl is still perfectly capable on that ARM, it's you that's the problem
 
@Ell I second this.
 
@Ell you still don't know that in Puppy land nobody else really exists, its only ever about himself?
 
@Puppy What
 
@TonyTheLion Hehe...
 
yes, it's clearly my fault that I did not write my program to handle every possible GPU in existence with no accessible devices to test for and no business money or incentive to develop or test code for them.
I should magically find time (and devices) to test with.
 
10:24 PM
you wrote it
of course its your fault decision
 
Ell
@Puppy You're saying you claim that opengl being cross platform has no value, but you're actually claiming that the rendering code you wrote has no value being cross platform
(imho, does anybody else see what I mean?)
 
@Ell Yep.
 
DX allows you to not test things on various GPUs yes
 
@Ell And it never will do.
@CatPlusPlus Never claimed differently. In fact, my entire point is that OGL and DX are pretty much the same in this regard.
 
No one uses vendor specific functions. Whatever is in OpenGL 3, is already enough to develop any game.
 
10:26 PM
good
 
It might not be a lot, but you work with it.
 
@Ell I'd interpret it somewhat differently: that unless everything is 100% portable and automatically results in perfectly optimal code on every possible target, then all portability of any kind is completely useless. In short, a false dichotomy.
 
if you have a game for desktop, you cannot just flip a switch and target ARM, you will have to do a huge amount of work, and this is true regardless of whether you use OGL or not.
 
Or... you can
 
Ell
@Puppy Right. But you're talking about your game, not opengl
 
10:27 PM
Depends on how you go about it
 
Ell
you've even said it at the end of that message
that's your own fault for not making your own game cross platform
 
@Puppy D3D can't even target any non-microsoft platform...
What about Mobile?
 
@Ell To be more accurate, I'm saying that there is no way to achieve that.
 
Starting with portability in mind tends to make portability much less work than it'd be otherwise
 
iOs?
Android?
OSX?
Linux?
@CatPlusPlus This.
 
10:28 PM
FreeBSD?
 
I'm not saying that I personally did not write it that way, I'm saying that I could not have written it that way.
 
@Ell No, it's not just "right". It's undoubtedly correct for a few types of programs under a few specific conditions. But there are certainly quite a few cases for which it's just dead wrong.
 
The requirements for mobile games are completely different because of screen sizes and touch
So that's not really a relevant target
 
Familiarity is key.
 
Ell
@JerryCoffin yeah this is much more accurate :)
 
10:29 PM
fuck mobile anyway
 
A game developer that knows OpenGL will probably be able to code in OpenGL ES
 
Ell
@Puppy But this is not because of opengl
 
@CatPlusPlus You can say this but you can't deny it's a viable platform.
 
Ell
@Nooble definitely
 
i can and i will
fuck mobile
 
10:30 PM
'Murica!
 
mobile fuck
 
'Acirum!
 
@Ell Right. But OGL doesn't help either. So I don't see how it's an advantage.
 
@CatPlusPlus The design of the game itself is generally quite different, but that has much less effect on the rendering engine.
 
Meh week again
 
10:31 PM
^
 
in fact I think I'd argue that using a different API would be an advantage since the compiler can correctly tell you everything that needs changing.
 
Ell
@Puppy why doesn't it help? it's having at least 0 component to change versus having at least 1
 
Using OpenGL allows you to target multiple platforms easier.
 
So many Minecraft clones on Steam
 
@CatPlusPlus lel
Speaking of Minecraft, it's made in OpenGL.
 
10:32 PM
@Ell You're not going to get away with running a desktop rendering engine on mobile, so changing 0 components is a goner.
 
Seriously stop making this shit people store.steampowered.com/app/280790
 
Ell
@Puppy you're missing it again. you're making claims about the rendering engine and not the graphics api
 
@CatPlusPlus Made in CryEngine™
 
the API isn't really of importance here.
 
Ell
@Puppy the graphics api is what we are discussing :S
 
10:33 PM
@Puppy It most definitely is...
 
Very Positive
People are idiots
 
OpenGL is superior in terms of cross-platform capability.
 
@Puppy Right. That why videos like this just don't exist.
 
right, and I'm saying that any "portability" claims for OGL are meaningless, because you're in the same spot either way, so the graphics API is not important.
 
Except you're making less work for yourself
 
10:35 PM
personally I'd rather have a well-written desktop component that can interact properly with the underlying operating system and stands a chance in hell of not being riddled with implicit state globals
 
@Puppy When was the last time you heard of D3D used for a Mobile game?
 
grr globals
 
rather than maybe sometime in the future I target another platform so I can re-use the shit I already have.
 
GLFW is a GREAT input/windowing library.
 
glfw is crap
 
10:35 PM
wait, let me just back up
 
@CatPlusPlus I like it.
 
GLFW?
 
Yes...
 
Ell
@Puppy you're not
 
Aww fuck I've said something I shouldn't have said...
 
Ell
10:36 PM
I think your claim is that all rendering engines are not cross platform
 
Yes People, I do not use SDL. I use GLFW because it's simple and elegant.
 
if (!glfwInit())
    return -1;
you suck, go away.
 
That is very relevant bit of the api yes
 
@Puppy Why...?
 
@Ell It's the nature of what they do. They bind closely to the hardware to get the best speed. That's the whole point behind the new MANTLE and whatever.
 
10:38 PM
And you're right, OpenGL isn't as polished as DX, it just can't be. DX is a full SDK, OpenGL isn't.
 
it would be like trying to retarget an LLVM IR backend.
 
We're comparing D3D to OpenGL here, not DX to OpenGL.
 
I mean, maybe between x64 and x86, but beyond that
 
DX is D3D
Well and D2D now but that's not very good
 
@Nooble Really? Because I completely don't care. All I care about is "When I download the software, what APIs do I gain?"
 
10:39 PM
@CatPlusPlus DX is a whole set of input handling, audio, video etc.
 
@Nooble Because he's stuck with two alternatives: admit he was wrong, or denigrate everything that proves him wrong.
 
@Nooble All of that is deprecated
 
@Nooble That is long gone now.
 
There's XInput but that's not part of DX
 
@CatPlusPlus Hmm. Didn't know this.
Still, OpenGL is still superior in terms of Cross Platform capability. Mobile gaming is a thing.
 
10:41 PM
Well DirectShow is still alive
For some reason
 
It might take a bit of work to transfer OpenGL to GLES code but it's definitely better than not being able to develop cross platform at all.
Windows, although dominant, is not the only relevant platform.
 
@Nooble Meh, you can start with GLES
 
depends on whether your boss wants to pay you to develop for other platforms or not.
 
Well you p much have to if you want actual portability
 
besides, the real name of the cross-platform game would be something like Unity or UE4
 
10:43 PM
Lowest common denominator
 
@Puppy Both of which put an abstraction layer on OpenGL/DirectX
 
That's how sane people write stuff
 
they abstract far more than that.
just abstracting OGL/DX isn't that valuable.
 
Why in the hell would you make the same game in both OpenGL and DirectX rather than just developing for OpenGL in the first place?
 
hmm
 
10:46 PM
Because Intel makes crappy GPUs
 
well, there is the whole, "Couldn't even figure out DSA for 20 years" thing.
 
Meh monday
 
@Puppy DSA isn't even that great.
 
@Nooble As usual, the reactions you've gotten overstate reality. It's true that MS haven't updated DirectInput for a long time, and at least some parts of their web site recommend a normal message loop for input (but other parts do still recommend DirectInput). It is, however, still present and AFAIK, MS has never made any kind of official statement deprecating it or hinting at the possibility that it'll ever actually be removed. Oh, it's not available for Windows store apps though.
 
@Nooble Should have expected that from glfw_init over here.
 
10:47 PM
What the fuck is wrong with glfwInit in the first place?
It's a simple API for input handling.
I didn't want/need anything else.
I wanted a small lightweight Window and Input handling API.
GLFW is the clear winner in this sense.
 
Allegro is better
 
if it's not immediately apparent to you why glfw_init sucks, you need remedial training
 
DX sucks because of CoInitialize
 
I mean, it's one thing to debate the inherent platform-specificness of rendering engines, but that's another
 
check mate
 
10:49 PM
I never called CoInitialize from any D3D app that I wrote.
 
Maybe you didn't
(You probably should)
 
problem solved, then
 
heh
 
i'm not even
 
10:50 PM
from a more serious perspective
 
that can work too
 
It's a small API that fit my needs, I still do not get why glfwInit() is so bad.
 
@Puppy Which ranks up there with "Left as an exercise for the reader" and "immediately obvious to the most casual observer" for meaning: "I have no real answer to that question."
 
@JerryCoffin Er, it initializes a bunch of global variables. Which is immediately obvious to the most casual observer.
which, in this particular case, is me.
 
10:51 PM
Everything initializes a bunch of global variables
There's literally no way to avoid global state
In anything
 
@CatPlusPlus This
 
not really.
it's true that you can never completely avoid global state but it certainly can be limited to where it doesn't infest your design
 
Ell
@Nooble opengles is basically opengl 3.3 last time I checked
 
And really it's required because e.g. on Windows you have to register global raw input stuff, and global window class
 
it's true, for example, that each function has one and only one globally unique address
 
10:53 PM
@Ell Correct. OpenGL ES 2 which (most) mobile platforms support is on par with OpenGL 3.3+
 
You're assuming that init does anything for the library and not the platform
 
window classes may be global but you don't have to treat them that way.
 
lol yes that changes everything
 
it changes a lot.
 
no it doesn't
 
10:55 PM
you can offer a re-entrant API on top of window classes.
 
You don't need a reentrant API for something you do once at the start of the program
At all
 
Ell
I don't think rendering engines are inherently not cross platform
 
If you start registering window classes with multiple threads you have bigger design issues than one init function
 
why
 
@Puppy Er, no, it doesn't. Please feel free to play again when you have at least some clue of what you're talking about. Most of what it does is call a platform-specific initialization routine. On Windows, that mostly calls a function to initialize libraries, which does this:
_glfw.win32.user32.instance = LoadLibrary(L"user32.dll");
if (_glfw.win32.user32.instance)
{
_glfw.win32.user32.SetProcessDPIAware = (SETPROCESSDPIAWARE_T)
GetProcAddress(_glfw.win32.user32.instance, "SetProcessDPIAware");
}

_glfw.win32.dwmapi.instance = LoadLibrary(L"dwmapi.dll");
if (_glfw.win32.dwmapi.instance)
{
_glfw.win32.dwmapi.DwmIsCompositionEnabled = (DWMISCOMPOSITIONENABLED_T)
GetProcAddress(_glfw.win32.dwmapi.instance, "DwmIsCompositionEnabled");
}

return GL_TRUE;
 
10:57 PM
Also init function can be reentrant
 
Better luck next time.
 
globals!!!
Sure it could be better (it could return an opaque handle to that _glfw object which rest of the functions consume)
But it's hardly OMG TOTALLY BROKEN API
 
can I call a function without initializing it first?
yes?
-> broken.
 
You can call it, it will fail
You can try calling CreateWindow with non-existent class and it will fail too
 
@CatPlusPlus Yes, it could be better. If it were being developed entirely in C++ instead of C, it probably would be better, but they (apparently) decided on C a long time ago, and now live with its shortcomings.
 
11:03 PM
@JerryCoffin Yep, GLFW is a C Library.
 
And gosh who would've thought you have to call init function before starting to do anything else
Unfathomable
It's not a real problem
 
@CatPlusPlus Probably. But I have yet to observe any downside of just re-registering the class every time. Or if I really, really care, just make my users pass in an instance of a WindowClass object.
 
It's just OCD
 
@CatPlusPlus idiots, that's who.
 
You can call most init functions multiple times just fine
Not that it makes sense seeing as it's literally one line at the start of main() but w/e
not real problems.txt
 
11:04 PM
required by design? no? -> broken.
 
Of course it's required by design
It's a precondition to doing anything else
 
really?
I never realized that void() was a contract that demanded that you could call that function multiple times.
 
lol because C and C++ function signatures are so meaningful
Also who said anything about demanding to call it multiple times
 
depends on how you author them really.
 
They always have implicit global environment and unlimited side effects so signature tells you almost nothing
 
11:09 PM
they can also de-ref a null pointer but that doesn't mean that doing so isn't a dumb idea.
 
That's irrelevant
 
it's absolutely relevant.
 
You brought up signatures as contracts
Whether it's "dumb" is irrelevant, because it's possible and that's all that matters
 
just because it's possible doesn't mean that doing so is not broken.
 
god it's like whoever arguing that compiler should ignore legal but "dumb" things
It is completely irrelevant
 
11:10 PM
it's also possible that I could go and murder somebody but that's pretty broken.
 
ugh
we
 
I never claimed that the compiler should ignore the function or do anything differently.
I merely said that presenting globals as part of your interface is broken.
 
Oh look; Puppy's back! Completely unrelated, there's an argument in the Lounge.
<3
 
Ell
11:27 PM
this is very strange i.imgur.com/bKXUJrH.png
it's like a sawtooth wave
 
@Ell Looks like you frequently see from a GC.
 
Ell
I cant find where I'm allocating any objects at all though o.O Hmm
 
@Ell Line 42.
 
@bdesham, when Stack Overflow jumped the shark — Lightness Races in Orbit just now
@Ell not strange really
 
Ell
Yeah I guess I've never looked at gc graphs before :p
 
11:34 PM
Today was indeed TweetOverflow
> For avoidance of doubt, any comments arguing this point will be replaced with the phrase "Fart fart fart". here
> If the backlight on your laptop with an Intel GPU doesn't work, the number of fucks I'll be giving will fail to register on even the most sensitive measuring device.
 
Ell
I'm trying to decouple rendering from simulation but after I've refactored, it's gotten incredibly choppy :S ah well. I'll postpone investigation until tomorrow
 
It's Farts all the way down
 
The ALS Gitbucket Challenge
 
11:55 PM
@sehe lol, that shellshock tweet. that's neat.
 
Indeed. Requires some real lateral thinking to come up with that.
 

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