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Xeo
10:01 AM
Nom nom, cake.
 
@Xeo I just had oreos :P
 
¬_¬ always make sure your CI jobs do not call themselves as a post build step
 
@ScottW Malic acid.
 
@ScottW because you are always hungry :'(
@ScottW maybe you are contemplating stalking SO mods subconciously?
It's called inception :p
 
No, it's called being an annoying bitch.
 
10:10 AM
:'(
 
@Rapptz You should tell that to the ladies.
 
I survived the stupid seminar
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'm sure someone else think that!
 
Xeo
@JerryCoffin What happened to your sleep?
 
That's another course down, 4 to go
 
10:13 AM
@Xeo Couldn't sleep.
 
@JerryCoffin that's opposite to me, I had 8 hours sleep last night but still fell asleep on the train just now ...
 
@Telkitty Yeah--I drank something, and only afterward found out it contained caffeine.
 
you are not a coffee drinker?
 
@Telkitty No--never.
 
> John Rees is my name or company name but I never surely liked that name. I am really fond most typically associated with gardening but I'm thinking about it on starting something new. Since I was 18 I've come working as a time assistant and I'll possibly be promoted soon. West Virginia is where we've been living for years and I enjoy every day living appropriate here. My wife and I maintain your site. You might want to prove it for yourself here: youtube.com/watch?v=KSDL13dS8DM
WTF is this?
@Cat, the wiki is being raided by spammers...
sigh.
 
10:26 AM
Ahahaha already?
 
Impressive.
 
user1804599
lol
 
Won't lie lol
 
Google must've crawled over transcript
There's literally no links to that site
 
user1804599
10:31 AM
Hmm.
 
user1804599
Can I use a regex in a Gmail filter?
 
user1804599
I want to autobin everything from promotion(.*?)@amazon.de.
 
@CatPlusPlus I wouldn't be surprised ... or maybe there are people reading this chat decisively spamming you. Maybe you or your site has as enemies </conspiracy theory>
 
Xeo
uhm, just disable promotions?
 
user1804599
I don’t speak German so I can’t read the settings page. :D
 
user1804599
10:38 AM
(I can’t even find it.)
 
Wiki locked
 
lol, fool of cat, thinking he can trust the internet to find somewhere to post spam :P
 
10:54 AM
Doesn't it usually take time to find sites like loungecpp.net?
Unless google has changed its crawling algorithm, spammers should not have found it so fast
 
I need two wifi cards.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes to connect them to each other to increase entropy?
 
So I can be connected to the work network and to one of the devices I'm debugging.
 
TIL that the robot supports two wifi cards.
 
Damn thing can only operate as an access point for now.
 
11:02 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Can you not just plug in your box with an old-fashioned ethernet cable thingy?
Those rectangular holes in the front panel of the routers have a purpose:)
 
@MartinJames ew, front? the only thing on the front should blinking lights
 
@thecoshman Heh - I'm used to so much patching that I prefer the holes on the front:)
 
Xeo
hmm... lunch time
don't feel like eating, though. meh.
 
@MartinJames I'm used to gettings sorted :P
that and patch panels :P
 
@MartinJames Nearest plug is too far (like, downstairs)
 
11:09 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes cat5 supports runs up to 100m! how big is your house?
 
Hopefully the electronics dudes will have this setup to connect to an existing network instead of insisting on making its own soon.
@thecoshman Office. We don't want cables all over the stairs. That's a bad idea.
Especially if said cables will be permanently close to me.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I don't follow...
 
@thecoshman The nearest place I can plug a cable is downstairs. What else is there to follow?
 
Heh - my usual approach to such problems is to acquire a drum of cable, hide it under my desk and then volunteer for a night-shift. There always seems to be some way of routing/hiding the cable.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I fail refuse to see the problem
 
Xeo
11:12 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Apropos stairs and downstairs, what about your headphones?
 
@Xeo That's also not advisable to have cables hanging over the mechanics' workplace.
 
@Xeo Thy'll be wireless too. Robot is using all the bandwidth available locally:)
 
Xeo
@MartinJames Not what I meant
@R.MartinhoFernandes I take it they're done for good?
 
@Xeo Oh, that. Yeah :(
 
Xeo
:/
 
11:15 AM
I wish you hadn't mentioned that. My headphone cable is crackling around the box plug:(
 
11:26 AM
@MartinJames doesn't sound like something a good length of duct tape cannot fix ;)
 
11:37 AM
@ArneMertz I've got the cable hanging over a bent coat-hanger fastened to the wall - that has strained the connection enough to keep it useable for a year. Now I guess I'll have to cut off the bad end of the cable and solder on a new plug.
 
12:06 PM
welcome
 
user1804599
Yay! My code works! (ノ◕ヮ◕)ノ*:・゚✧*:・゚✧
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Get an electrical circuit connector.
 
<obj c> omg, protocols are interfaces, interfaces are implementations, implementation is the shit you write </obj c>
 
they deliver ethernet through the electrical mains supply.
we have them in our house.
 
user1804599
@BartoszKP Interfaces are not implementations.
 
12:09 PM
the connection drops out from time to time, but it's servicable.
 
@DeadMG Are you joking?
 
@rightfold in objc they are
 
user1804599
Nope.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'm using one right now.
 
user1804599
Implementations are the implementations.
 
12:09 PM
and have been for about a year, maybe more.
 
user1804599
Interfaces are the interfaces of classes.
 
eh
they're certainly very convenient at reducing clutter.
but the uptime of the cheaper model I'm using could be better.
 
Good day everyone.
 
@rightfold but attached to one particular class, so it's not an interface in a common understanding
 
12:10 PM
if you're prepared to pay a little downtime/etc or, hell, just pay some more money, in exchange for saving cables, they can be quite effective.
 
user1804599
@interface tells you which methods you can find in a class. @implementation tells you how those methods are implemented.
 
Xeo
@DeadMG Don't they also reduce bandwidth?
 
user1804599
@BartoszKP It is depending on the meaning of “interface.”
 
@Xeo Yes.
 
@rightfold -.- yes I know
 
12:11 PM
they're certainly not as fast as a physical wire.
 
user1804599
Objective-C is probably older than the meaning of “interface” that Java and C# use.
 
but then, AFAIK, we have the dirt cheap model.
 
@rightfold like everything, and I'm just noting that this not the common meaning of "interface" currently
 
it's about 3MB/s instead of 10-12MB/s, so a pretty hefty reduction.
 
@rightfold yes, probably that's the reason
 
12:12 PM
but then again, when you're just playing Starcraft 2 or downloading at a miserable 300kbs, it's really not a problem.
anyway, I'm not saying they're wonder devices or anything, I personally dislike the uptime issues I've had, but they are certainly extremely convenient.
 
Xeo
@DeadMG mh
Ugh, Milewski also uses std::function when he could've perfectly fine templated the struct on F :(
 
link?
 
Xeo
3h video :P
With tons of Haskell
 
lol
 
Xeo
Kinda interesting, though
 
12:20 PM
it does seem to me that that guy's Mission In Life™ is to sell Haskell to C++ programmers.
 
Xeo
Well, it's kinda nice how he does it.
He had trouble understanding Boost.Proto, and mapped it to a State-like monad in Haskell, which makes it very clear
Also, I think I get how the reader monad works now, yay.
 
@DeadMG he seems more interested into showing different ways of doing things, than in writing fast code. So to me it looks like teaching functional programming concepts to C++ programmers by using C++ in unusual ways.
 
@gnzlbg Yeah, but he's way short on why anyone would actually want to do that.
 
@DeadMG I couldnt play SC2 with more than about 20ms ping :/
 
@DeadMG threadsafety through immutability
 
Xeo
12:24 PM
The audio is really annoying at times, though.
Like he's eating the microphone or something
 
@gnzlbg Most aspects of most programs do not need to deal with synchronization.
 
@DeadMG but yes, they look more to solutions to problems that Haskell has due to purity. C++ just doesn't have those problems.
 
Xeo
C++ TMP is very Haskell-like, FWIW
and that's what he uses Haskell as an example for
 
it's funny cause that's the part of the language I hate the most.
 
Xeo
in this specific video, anyways
 
Xeo
12:38 PM
@DeadMG Expression templates?
 
expression templates are a pretty creative hack, of which I am not a great fan.
I mean, they achieve their objective of superior run-time performance through what essentially amounts to AST introspection
 
Xeo
It's not just about performance
 
They allow cleaner syntax.
 
Xeo
Boost.Proto is for producing EDSLs
And Boost.Spirit is an example of that
 
well you can also use them for that, I guess.
but given their limitations you can't produce very powerful or interesting EDSLs.
 
Xeo
12:44 PM
... come again?
 
You can't do f after g because there's no "after" operator.
 
Xeo
Boost.Spirit (and Phoenix) is increadibly powerful and interesting, IMHO
 
Given the impressive expressiveness of C++ having ET-based DSLs is a net win.
 
@Xeo They're conceptually interesting.
 
@Xeo Boost.Phoenix is really interesting, but i don't find it useful :/
 
12:45 PM
the entire reason for the introduction of lambdas was the failure of libraries like Phoenix, wasn't it?
 
@gnzlbg Lemme guess. You never used Boost Range, or similar
 
@sehe I use Boost.Range a lot in production :P
 
boost lambda was introduced in 2003 and nobody used it.
 
it's just, the moment you want to access member functions with boost.phoenix things get extremely verbose
 
as for Spirit, sure it's interesting in theory, but my experience of the reality is that hardly anyone can use it and if they do, the result isn't anywhere near as clean or useful as you can get from a hand-written parser.
 
12:46 PM
@DeadMG cough. It's the other way around. Phoenix and siblings (Lambda, Proto, etc. etc.) have served as inspiration. Still do.
Poly-lambdas are likely mostly in c++14 due to the research / experience gained with libraries like Phoenix.
 
and if that experience was "ETs are great and fine", they wouldn't have needed to inspire anyone.
 
for doing really simple things like a += b; Phoenix is nice, for more complicated stuff it gets really.. complicated
 
I played a little with Phoenix but I have not yet found a practical purpose for it.
 
plus there's that whole mess with ETs and auto.
 
@DeadMG Compilers were getting swamped. Phoenix's ET's still are more expressive than c++14 lambdas, IMO. However, getting core language support enables compilers to know the intent and do a much faster job of generating optimal code.
 
12:49 PM
@StackedCrooked if you wouldn't have C++11/14 lambdas, then you will have some uses, but most of the time you are better off writing a functor anyways
 
See Protox11
Do you see how those boost libraries are paving the way for good language/library support?
 
@sehe it doesn't fix the auto mess, but hopefully we'll get something like operator auto to fix it. That would probably be thanks to boost.proto, eigen and friends
 
@gnzlbg Well it fixes all relevant problems with auto. What you'd like operator(auto) for is actually a hack to help hide abstractions. I'd not label it a problem. Stale refs to temps were a problem. That's worth solving. And also solved in Protox11
 
the stale refs to temps thing isn't really the core problem.
 
well is at least one that can be solved with rvalue refs
the auto problem for me is an user interface problem
 
12:55 PM
Now I doesn't and the error message is rather cryptic :D
 
auto just gives you an expression and i think that although very useful, it should be made explicit. Users shouldn't need to know what their library is doing behind the scenes.
 
Also Luc mentioned that he wasn't sure if the use of auto was safe here.
If Luc isn't sure then it's a scary situation.
 
1:14 PM
@StackedCrooked BOOST_RESULT_OF_USE_DECLTYPE (or USE_TR1_FALLBACK_TO_DECLTYPE IIRC)
 
Xeo
@gnzlbg If we had a way to automatically generate functions for that... cough [].member cough
@sehe couldn't resist debugging that, huh?
Delicious Boost errors
 
@Xeo Debugging? It's just the thing that I think when I see that error.
I spent all of 4 seconds looking at that
 
Fast debugging is still debugging!
 
Xeo
@sehe Also, doesn't (seem to) help.
 
@StackedCrooked Some compilers get decltype selected as preferred result-of protocol, but if it is, result_types will be deselected. Likely, you need to use Phoenix V3. Did you include the spirit header for phoenix ('cause: DON'T)
 
1:17 PM
Yeah, @sehe you are a debugger!
 
@Xeo ^ Likely either include boost/phoenix/phoenix.hpp (if not already) OR define BOOST_SPIRIT_USE_PHOENIX_V3
 
Xeo
There are no obvious spirit includes, at least
 
Whoah, bash scripts are pretty awesome.
 
@GamesBrainiac meh
 
No really, they're awesome.
 
1:22 PM
meh
 
@GamesBrainiac no really, meh.
 
@sehe I thought that that specific decltype bug was only in the earliest round of decltype implementers, and that newer G++/Clang/VS had it right?
 
@thecoshman Well, I like them because you can do a lot of the stuff python can do with bash.
 
@GamesBrainiac you can do a lot of stuff that a lot of languages can with a lot of languages. What's your point?
 
@thecoshman You have to install python. Bash is pretty much the language of the terminal.
 
1:26 PM
poor excuse
 
Bash is also shitty and arcane
 
@GamesBrainiac they are obscured shit
 
@CatPlusPlus Really? I use 'em daily on Linux.
I'm pretty sure you have too.
 
@DeadMG there's no bug. just library assumptions (at least, I wasn't referring to any decltype bug). Anyways, that wasn't the cause here
 
@GamesBrainiac I use windows everyday, doesn't mean I think it is good.
 
1:28 PM
@GamesBrainiac So?
Also I don't use bash at all
 
If you are using a tool because you have to use it, chances are it is not a very good tool
 
(Not that it matters much, because every sh derivative is shitty and arcane)
 
@thecoshman Hmm, I guess you're right. I need to explore bash more.
 
Everything bash can be done better with anything else
I really don't use shell scripts for anything that isn't extremely trivial
 
@GamesBrainiac No need to explore more - download any non-trivial and longer than 10 lines bash script from the internet and try to understand what it does
 
1:30 PM
I use bash as a terminal, I might alias few commands together. But fuck doing anything with any sort of logic it bash.
 
I always forget how to do if (x < y) in bash.
 
Xeo
if [x -lt y] or something?
 
user3010322
Yeah, without the square brackets I think
 
if fi :P
 
[[ $x < $y ]]
 
1:33 PM
I just Googled when to use double brackes in Bash and found a reply by Johannes :)
 
Who knows what ${var?foo} does
 
I've never seen that.
 
Or ${var##foo}
 
user1804599
@thecoshman I suspected a tar-related joke in the tooltip of the third image but I’m unimpressed.
 
1:36 PM
Or ${!foo*}
Fuck shell scripts
 
I like process substitution.
 
echo "` <$0`" # Echoes the script itself to stdout.
Why? Who the fuck knows
 
$0 is the script thats running right?
I mean in ruby you go if __name__ = $0
 
@sehe BOOST_RESULT_OF_USE_DECLTYPE originates because of a decltype bug in the earlier implementations (or possibly it was a draft Standard defect, which they discovered based on that). Which is why Boost didn't universally migrate to decltype when it became available.
 
@GamesBrainiac It's the filepath. So if you call your script as /tmp/test.sh then echo $0 will be "/tmp/test.sh".
 
1:47 PM
@StackedCrooked o.O
 
user3010322
@DeadMG VS didn't have it right.
 
Some programs have various symbolic links with different names and the program will check $0 to see which symbolic link was used, and run different code depending on that.
 
user3010322
Using Xeo's lift and chain and a complicated nested expression, we found a phony compiler error (me and STL) when using decltype()
 
@ThePhD I'm pretty sure it was actually a Standard defect (in the draft version).
 
user3010322
The bug was marked for fixing as low-priority in the Dev14 cycle.
 
1:48 PM
that's a completely different thing, most likely.
 
user3010322
Ooh. Probably.
 
Xeo
@ThePhD woah, what
 
user3010322
But yeah, I think only clang and Gcc have completely immune decltype.
 
user3010322
@Xeo I was doing a lot while I was at Microsoft. :D
 
user3010322
STL lent me his personal STL builds of the VC++ compiler and stdlib
 
user3010322
1:49 PM
I implemented <optional> under it.
 
user3010322
And I also tried some complicated templates.
 
user3010322
I didn't even get to Robot's template magic, because it failed on lift/chain.
 
user3010322
I still have to implement tuple_cat with no runtime quirks and give it to STL though. I've been holding back on that for a while. @___@
 
user3010322
I dun wanna do templates that crazy. :c
 
user3010322
(As a test, he doesn't need my tuple_cat, he's STL <333333333)
 
1:51 PM
@ThePhD why not? what's more intriguing than crazy template stuff? :P
 
Xeo
@ThePhD Unoptimized tuple-cat is pretty easy, IIRC
 
user3010322
Yeah, but he said he got it in under 20 lines of code. :c
 
user3010322
No dependencies
 
user3010322
Fucking OP as fuck.
 
They type-erasure used by std::function. Is this achieved via a polymorphic base with subclass<F>?
 
user3010322
1:53 PM
@StackedCrooked Maybe internally, but std::function isn't a base class, IIRC.
 
I mean internally.
 
user3010322
Probably. I don't see why you wouldn't.
 
user3010322
Might do some other shenanigans to avoid the new() call.
 
Xeo
@StackedCrooked pretty much
Boost.Function uses function pointers to function template specializations, but that amounts to the same, basically - manual vtable.
 
Could this be achieved without inheritance? (Somehow copy the lambda into a buffer with placement new and obtain a function pointer to it't entry point.)
@Xeo Ah.
I hadn't thought of that.
 
1:56 PM
@StackedCrooked It's just implementing virtual functions yourself.
the reality is that inheritance is what's necessary here.
 
user3010322
It has the benefit of not requiring new.
 
user3010322
And that's about its only benefit.
 
er, no it doesn't.
the whole "Pointer to table of function pointers" only implements the vtable aspect... it has nothing whatsoever to do with where you store the object.
 
new is required because the size is not known at compile-time.
 
assuming it doesn't fit into SBO, but the same is true if you point to a table of function pointers.
however you choose to implement virtual functions, you still have the same problem with where you're going to put the object you're calling them on.
 
user3010322
1:59 PM
Well, there's only 4 kinds of functions you need tow orry about
 
user3010322
Or rather, 3
 
which is utterly irrelevant.
utterly and completely.
 
user1804599
@CatPlusPlus because `<foo` reads the file foo into an argument, and $0 is like argv[0].
 
it wouldn't matter if it was fifteen billion.
 

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