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user1804599
9:10 AM
@Ven help
 
Ven
u were mean to me ;(
Java? you're not gonna target the JVM in general?
@rightfold wow you're not even gonna target Purl?
 
user1804599
No
 
user1804599
Generating Perl code is a nightmare
 
Ven
meh.
 
I'd think parsing it is the bigger nightmare.
 
Ven
9:13 AM
^
Especially stuff like barewords. And all the NP-complete stuff like BEGIN.
(barewords in Perl are literally resolved off of a reduce conflict)
 
hm 5G phones
 
Ven
5g languages : ^)
 
user1804599
@Ven class format is horrible
 
user1804599
CLR at least has ilasm
 
Ven
well, yeah, but generating Java code feels like a waste
 
user1804599
9:24 AM
I'm aiming only for CIL, ECMAScript, and PHP right now.
 
Ven
If you actually get those, I'll gladly contribute some others :P
(yes, we all know you're gonna drop the project earlier to this stage)
 
Jan 16 at 17:17, by Madame Elyse
Perl 6 is really nice.
30 mins ago, by rightfold
Perl 6 is shit.
 
user1804599
I am truly sorry for exploiting my ability to change opinions over the course of months and experience.
 
user1804599
I should never improve and I should always stay in the same old shithole for the rest of my life.
 
@rightfold It's funny because it seems to change back and forth regularly every ~3-4 months.
 
9:29 AM
k I’m done reading Civ5 criticism, I am now anti-hyped for Civ6
 
user1804599
@Ven :'(
 
Ven
It doesn't matter to me. I'm just stating that I can promise to contribute and all if it reaches a stable point, because I know it won't.
you're free to do whatever you want with your free time.
 
@rightfold You can find that back-and-forth trend going back as far as January 2015, then there's some consistent liking all the way back to June 2014, and then there's consistent disliking first reported in September 2013.
@doug65536 I have no idea what this is replying to.
@LucDanton I'm a dinosaur still stuck with Civ4.
For lack of time, mostly.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes so it took him 4 months
 
user1804599
@Ven do you know if V8 efficiently optimizes poor-man's gotos implemented as switches in while true loops?
 
9:38 AM
@rightfold them slippery slopes
 
Ven
@rightfold switches are optimized like your good ol' C compiler would, yes
 
user1804599
like
 
user1804599
var label = 0;
for (;;) switch (label) {
    case 0: label = 1; break;
    case 1: label = 2; break;
    case 2: label = 0; break;
}
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes they’re different games
 
Ven
@rightfold lol state machinez
 
user1804599
9:40 AM
In other news it's 2016 and it's still impossible to select a single character in the address bar in Chrome on Windows.
 
Xeo
Aw yeah, I just dropped Sparklestrup into our dev-chat at work.
(Context is Meeting C++ 2016, where he's the keynote speaker)
 
user1804599
You must select at least two.
 
user1804599
If you use a mouse that is.
 
I locked on Civ5 criticism because I have an inkling that a lot of its questionable design choices were carried over to Civ:BE and crippled it pretty much similarly to how vanilla Civ5 at release was a disaster. Now I’m on the lookout for that for Civ6.
 
user1804599
@Ven it's the easiest way to compile jump instructions XD
 
Ven
9:40 AM
I know
 
@Xeo small life goals
 
user1804599
ECMAScript y u no GOTO statement.
 
Ven
@Xeo when's that?
 
user1804599
@Ven 2016, duh
 
12 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
@rightfold It's funny because it seems to change back and forth regularly every ~3-4 months.
 
Xeo
9:41 AM
@Ven End of November
 
iow I don’t need Civ6 to be another Civ4, but if it’s going to be another Civ5 I’ll wait until it’s severely discounted and patched before considering it.
 
Ven
@Xeo thanks :)
 
@rightfold what if the next state is not defined.. is it gonna loop forever?
 
@LucDanton I meant that I just go back to Civ4 instead of Civ5 (despite owning both) because it's the game I know how to play I don't have the time to learn a new one.
 
Xeo
Well, not quite end
> 18th and 19th November
 
Ven
9:42 AM
@Khaled.K default: throw
 
user1804599
@Khaled.K it is; the code generator checks this
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes you don’t have to defend yourself, it’s a game very much worth playing
 
user1804599
the code generator doesn't generate jumps to non-existing blocks
 
the UI and wait times throw me off these days though, it’s a shame :/
 
user1804599
it'll panic instead
 
Ven
9:42 AM
PICNIC!!!1
 
user1804599
write_jump calls solve_phi, and solve_phi panics if the target block isn't in the control flow graph
 
> I don't see how our ability to be lazy defends us from paperclippers.
 
Ven
that'd be a funny one :P
 
Decontextification is awesome.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Isn't like gaming supposed to happen in your spare time anyway
 
9:46 AM
@BartekBanachewicz No such thing as spare time when you're talking Civ.
It's not a game I can play a few hours here and there, especially if I don't know how to play it yet.
It takes several playthroughs to be able to devise new strategies, and even new tactics as those may be of ephemeral nature given the technological progress.
 
there isn’t a preferred form for Concepts Lite/concepts lite/Concepts-Lite/concepts-lite/etc., is there? this drives me mad
maybe I should pick concepts-- Lite as a compromise
 
Ven
concepts++ best concepts
C++20 will be conceptually different.
 
Old paper called "Concepts Lite", but granted that could be title case. First line contains "concepts lite", 6th line contains "Concepts Lite"
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes you make it sound almost like starcraft really
I thought it's casual
 
Ell
10:28 AM
Lite concepts
ConCeptsLight
@BartekBanachewicz I think casual or not mostly depends on the player
I had a dream with @R.MartinhoFernandes in it :P
 
ETOOMUCHDATA
 
Ell
You said "I'm almost 50 now" and I was shocked because I thought you were much younger.
That was it
 
cOncePtSlight
 
@gnzlbg makes it harder than you dream :)
 
@Ell lol
@Ell's nightmare: old robot.
 
10:34 AM
FFS people misusing colours again
 
@BartekBanachewicz I guess you can enjoy it casually if you play small maps with fast time progression, perhaps. I always play largest maps with slowest time.
@BartekBanachewicz I like how you can still see East Germany.
 
of course you can, but you also could if the colorscale wasn't bad
 
civ5 plays 'fast' (but only by civ standards) because if you play for a challenge then there’s mostly one good economic strategy with only slight tweaks from game to game, so you tend to explore that space relatively fast (again, only by civ standards)
 
user1804599
Weird that countries outside the EU are doing so well. IIRC if you're not in the EU you can't trade with countries within the EU.
 
if you don’t play for a challenge then I guess there are religious games as well
 
10:37 AM
@rightfold what? Of course you can
 
you can trade, theres a tariff though iirc
 
@rightfold That's not how it works. If you're talking Norway and Switzerland, they are both members of the EEA.
 
user1804599
I'm making fun of people who claim this.
 
user1804599
It's sarcasm
 
right
 
10:38 AM
It's the EEA that establishes the free movement of goods and services, not the EU.
 
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes haha, it was a really short dream, that's all I remember. How bizarre :P
 
@rightfold I mean that in practice they aren't really "outside the EU" for this purpose, since they take part in the EU internal market via the EEA.
The countries in the map that are outside of that are the ones that are doing worse.
 
user1804599
I am keenly aware.
 
user1804599
// Result<O, E> <=> Either E O
fn print(s: &str) -> Result<(), Error> { ... }

fn main() {
    print("Hello, world!"); // warning: ignored error
}
 
user1804599
This is really nice.
 
user1804599
10:52 AM
rustc is amazing
 
user1804599
> Defending Rust From Murphy's Million Monkeys
 
Hi all, can you point me towards exceptionally well-documented C++ projects (and tell me why you consider it good)? I have a little open source project that I want to release soon and I'd like to see what people expect in terms of documentation.
3
 
user1804599
Boost, if its documentation would also tell you what headers to include.
 
user1804599
But it doesn't, so it's useless.
 
Ben
@TamásSzelei If your documenting something, the most important thing that matters is if all the relevant topics are covered, and can be understood by your intended audience.
 
user1804599
10:58 AM
Document all invariants, preconditions and postconditions of every public API.
 
@TamásSzelei examples, lots of examples
 
Encode your invariants, pre and post conditions in the type system
Oh wait... it's C++
 
Well C++ was advocated for high memory failure environments (like outerspace). The research paper said that RAII was a good way to check pre-and-post conditions.
 
@Mikhail I'm definitely aiming for that with a "Cookbook" section (similar to gtest docs).
@rightfold I found that most people are not too keen on Boost docs (myself included) although it varies from library to library in Boost.
 
nwp
@TamásSzelei does en.cppreference.com/w/cpp count?
 
11:04 AM
@rightfold In terms of API documentation, can you show me an example where invariants, pre/postconditions are documented well?
@nwp sure, but tell me what you like about it?
 
@Martin Don't "remember". Just look at your code in the question. It's not there. My code doesn't crash. Hope that helps. — sehe 10 secs ago
 
nwp
it has examples, explains all the parameters, links to related things
it also has a small paragraph that explains the use case
 
user1804599
Also write tutorials.
 
user1804599
Describe typical use cases
 
Ven
nqp-js is going smoothly :D
 
user1804599
11:09 AM
And describe composition so people can build their own abstractions on top of yours
 
Ven
@rightfold are you sure you want to tie yourself to languages who only have exceptions for Iron?
 
hi
@R.MartinhoFernandes Perhaps maybe you can also try Stellaris
Paradox just released it
 
It's €40
 
user1804599
There are languages that don't have exceptions?
 
user1804599
Well, Coq, but just don't generate throwing instructions then.
 
Ven
11:14 AM
@rightfold yes
 
@rightfold C
 
nwp
C?
 
user1804599
Oh, you mean target languages?
 
user1804599
Not source languages?
 
Ven
da
 
11:15 AM
I guess C has "exceptions" if we think about setjmp/longjmp...
 
user1804599
Well, say you want to target Coq. You'd just make an iron backend that generates code that threads everything through Either vOv
 
user1804599
Except functions marked nothrow
 
Ven
that's gonna be tough, though
 
user1804599
But even then, Coq isn't Turing-complete but iron is :v
 
user1804599
I can't think of any Turing-complete language that doesn't support exceptions.
 
user1804599
11:16 AM
Even C has longjmp.
 
What constitutes exceptions?
Error-triggered goto? or the throwing as well?
 
user1804599
Using instructions that throw exceptions.
 
user1804599
Such as arithmetic with throw-on-overflow.
 
@rightfold oh...
...signals?...
 
Ven
wat??
 
11:19 AM
I thought overflows generate a signal
Same with floating point div/0 and whatnot
 
user1804599
Through the power of abstraction, you can make them generate whatever you want :)
 
Ven
gt
-_-
 
@rightfold Yeah, I know, but I'm thinking in terms of C... It generates a signal, right?
I haven't touched signal handling in C yet
 
@VermillionAzure Do you remember the part where I said I don't have that much time?
 
user1804599
No, in C it's UB on signed ints, and IIRC wrap on unsigned ints
 
11:21 AM
@rightfold Okay but division does right?
 
Ven
@rightfold 2's complement for unsigned
 
user1804599
Integer division by zero is UB in C.
 
Ah right.
Hm...
 
11:22 AM
also throws a hardware exception
 
user1804599
@Ven wat
 
user1804599
that makes no sense
 
@Mikhail Can you catch that one? Or is that OS-level?
 
user1804599
If you increment the largest unsigned, you just get 0.
 
Ven
@rightfold unsigned overflow is specified to behave like ints are implemented using 2's complement
 
11:23 AM
@Ven ...
 
user1804599
oh
 
@Ven I mean technically, yes, but that's just as true as saying it's one's complement, or sign-magnitude, or any other of a zillion represenations.
 
Ven
@VermillionAzure ??? look it up
 
@Ven "unsigned overflow is specified to behave like ints are implemented using 2's complement" ??? you mean like addition in 2's complement?
so like 1111 + 1 => 0?
 
Ven
11:25 AM
@VermillionAzure like whatever operation you're doing
 
@Ven No, it's specified to behave like modular arithmetic. Which is happens to be equivalent to arithmetic in 2's complement that ignores overflow.
 
@VermillionAzure Even if you did, the compiler could optimize it out...
 
@Mikhail Supposedly... But suppose it cannot
 
However, saying it is equivalent to arithmetic in 2's complement that ignores overflow is just as true as saying it is equivalent to arithmetic in 1's complement that ignores overflow.
All of those representations have the same behaviour when dealing with positive numbers.
 
@StackedCrooked this sounds like japanese nickelback
 
11:26 AM
@VermillionAzure I'm told that floating point division might even be faster? Why not just convert to float and then roundf() the value?
 
really?
 
Ven
@VermillionAzure JO/JNO?
 
dunno much about nickelback
 
@StackedCrooked well, it's really not dissimilar
 
@Mikhail No, all I'm asking is if you can catch hardware exceptions at the user level?
 
11:26 AM
@StackedCrooked dunno, give them a listen
 
@VermillionAzure 1111+1 = 10000.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I know nvm
@Ven That... doesn't catch divide by 0 errors, though, right?
 
Not really, see
http://coliru.stacked-crooked.com/a/7119026c6cc036e6
 
Ven
@Mikhail just link the coliru... -_-
@VermillionAzure you get a SIGFPE on linux
 
sorry I've been up for like 19 hours
 
11:29 AM
@Ven That's for floating point though
????
stilll?
 
Ven
@VermillionAzure uuh, division par 0 gives a SIGFPE AFAIK
 
@TamásSzelei I am the dev for sol2, a project started in this lounge. For me, the single most important part of the documentation that I created and worked on over time, as made clear by this issue here, is a Quick 'n' Dirty tutorial with minimal explanation and just samples. I wrote API documentation first and that was fine for people wanting to know a bit of the details about the API, but in the end you need EXAMPLES.
 
@Ven hmmmm but why...
 
Examples are overrated
Cue OpenGL examples over the internet
 
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz just use modans and tyeps
 
11:31 AM
API has to be typed, that's pretty much obvious
 
Ven
an API has to be modaned
@VermillionAzure division by zero for floating point is defined
> If the divisor is zero and the dividend is a finite nonzero number, then the division by zero exception shall be signaled. The result, when no trap occurs, shall be a correctly signed INFINITY (6.3)
 
@Ven I'm asking specifically for integer, not floating point though
 
I wish we were already in the world in which modans were a popular concept noone needed to particularly focus on
 
Ven
@VermillionAzure as I already said: SIGFPE.
 
But when I ask for ints it gives me a floating point error? Strange.
 
11:32 AM
like functions or objects or w.e
 
@TamásSzelei Everybody will live, die, and use your code by your examples. Very few users go beyond that if they are good. They want a rundown of your API, how it looks, how it feels, and how to get started in 5 minutes or less. Is it headerless or do you compile it into a library? How do you do that compilation? When that's done, how do you start using it? What's the minimum required "Hello World" to know you've connected your application with the system properly?
 
Ah okay I see
 
Ven
@VermillionAzure LOL if you think "SIGFPE" is only for floating-point errors.
 
@ThePhD Unless you're actually targetting professionals, not a zoo of JS code monkeys
 
Ven
LOL if you think names make any sense in programming.
 
11:33 AM
They do if you're not bad
 
Ven
@VermillionAzure see here
 
@Ven who were you again? you're not the harvard dude...
 
Ven
¿¿¿¿???¿¿
 
VenmillionAzure
 
I am the harvard dude
 
Ven
11:34 AM
Even for a cinch, that's pretty far-fetched.
 
I thought ThePhD was the Harvard dude
 
Ven
Far-cinched.
I'm french, though, so no harvard here. But I have no idea how that's relevant to what we're talking about
 
@ThePhD lol, headerless
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes tfw my spelling
 
@Ven Because if you're one of the 15 year olds or so I want to go die
 
Ven
11:35 AM
I'm 16
 
@BartekBanachewicz Depends on your audience. For me, Lua developers all are a zoo of code monkeys: they can't be assed to read their own variables, many aren't 5+ year experts in code, and several are just kind of stitching things together to stumble along. They can't be assed to browse API docs, and they certainly can't do more than read beyond the first page of basic examples before throwing my library into the trashbin.
 
Ven
+5 for good measure
 
Ven
I didn't go into a good school, and my life is going downhill indeed, since I'm wasting my time trying to understand what you're Cinching here.
 
I literally lost users to much worse designed, terribly performing, SHITTIER libraries because, as the user in that issue states, I did not have hand-holding documentation that had focused, driven use-case documentation and I did not have a "Quick and Dirty" readme-style of tutorial.
 
11:37 AM
@Ven You're 16. Isn't college a couple of years away for you anyways?
 
@ThePhD I don't know what you mean by quick-and-dirty, but I think that there is such a thing as too quick and too dirty, regardless of what your audience thinks.
 
Ven
I'm 16+5, as I said
 
Also, documentation style is one way for you to make your own audience.
 
Thanks @ThePhD, the quick'n'dirty tutorial is a really good idea. I already have a mostly written tutorial which pretty long and explains many things along the way, but I suppose many people will prefer the quick'n'dirty approach
 
@Ven don't worry, cinch is 9
also I AM OLD AND HAVE ACCOMPLISHED NOTHING
 
11:39 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes In the user's words: "Make one like Selene or kaguya".
 
@BartekBanachewicz Says the guy who worked for Intel
 
"I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream" is a post-apocalyptic sci-fi short story by Harlan Ellison. It was first published in the March 1967 issue of IF: Worlds of Science Fiction. It won a Hugo Award in 1968. The name was also used for a short story collection of Ellison's work, featuring this story. It was recently reprinted by the Library of America, collected in volume two (Terror and the Uncanny, from the 1940s to Now) of American Fantastic Tales (2009). == Background == Ellison showed the first half dozen pages of "I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream" to Frederik Pohl, who paid him in advance...
 
@Ven Ah.
 
@StackedCrooked is this your website? coliru.stacked-crooked.com
 
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz we should form a club!
 
11:39 AM
erm yeah :)
 
@VermillionAzure like that's any real achievement
Intel hires shitload of people
 
@BartekBanachewicz At least you can get a job with a company
I'm stuck without an internship this summer because my only one figured out they didn't have the funding.
 
@StackedCrooked erm.. I'd like to talk to you about something
 
@VermillionAzure I want to be a jet or racecar mechanic anyway and I'm wasting my life programming
 
@BartekBanachewicz Then why don't you?
 
11:41 AM
because you need experience to get that job?
 
Trade school?
 
And getting experience as a mechanic means working your ass off for little to no pay
 
@ThePhD I guess the project's nature also matters, but I like my guides to have more prose :P
Like in nonius.io.
 
If I had (nearly) infinite money I'd probably take a break from programming
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I liked your guides, but even when I wrote a longer-winded tutorial people were just like "nothx like Selene pls", even the person I worked on it with in school said that too. Made me so sad q_q
 
11:42 AM
Really? Hm I thought you were happy with it by how much you come here...
 
dunno, right now I'm pushing the only non-shitty language on the planet to its limits and it kinda feels like there's not much beyond it
I want better ways to make better software, but there aren't any
 
Too bad I'm such a scrub it'll take me nearly a decade to get started on that proble
 
Ven
better start early
 
And that's if I get into grad school
 
user1804599
ho lee fuk
 
11:44 AM
@Ven I'm actually focusing my senior project around the stuff I want to research
 
Programming is the funniest when you don't know shit about it
 
Ven
don't fall into that trap, bartek
 
@BartekBanachewicz Have you tried looking at Facebook's Infer project? That seems quite nice.
 
Ven
don't enter the butt castle, on the top of the butt tower.
 
user1804599
praise dickbutt
 
11:45 AM
> if you give Infer some Objective-C, Java, or C code,
 
@BartekBanachewicz Which is indeed a start.
 
Ven
XD
 
Dec 1 '15 at 13:04, by Bartek Banachewicz
If I need to become an elitist asshole to actually move forward at this point, so be it.
 
Ven
butt..
 
point being I'm kinda lost.
I almost got to the top of the butt tower
the only way now is back
 
11:46 AM
There's supposed to be a lot of stuff but I guess I'm not smart enough to understand it...
hmmm
 
@ThePhD I think I take the same approach with examples as I take with presentation slides: they enhance the results, but aren't the main focus. My nonius documentation reads just fine and loses very little if you remove all the examples from it.
 
user1804599
Is Spore still popular?
 
user1804599
Was it ever popular?
 
lol spore
 
11:48 AM
I thought Spore was popular before it was released.
3
 
user1804599
Oh I thought Spore was an MMORPG.
 
user1804599
Apparently it's single-player only.
 
Ven
da
 
OH today: "docker is like iframes for linux"
 
11:52 AM
nice
 
oh cool, thrustmaster made their own flight pedals
maybe I should buy those things
all people seem to say it's like essential and absolutely necessary
 
Ven
which means it totally isn't
 
well real planes do have those
 
user image
7
@rightfold malloc and free implemented
 
but I always felt that rudder control is really only useful for small adjustments and corrections
 
user1804599
11:56 AM
@fredoverflow what happens when I double free?
 
@fredoverflow what's this?
 
user1804599
What happens when I do this? struct Point *one = malloc(1); one->y = 1;.
 
@rightfold You get an error message that says "dangling pointer"...
 
user1804599
nice
 
oh wow the Warthog HOTAS has 16 bit for each axis
 
Ven
11:58 AM
@fredoverflow looks absolutely amazing
 
user1804599
 

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