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12:03 AM
@AjeetKljh Depends. Most OSes support things like allocating blocks of memory that are shared between processes. Those won't normally be released until all processes sharing them exit or release the shared block.
 
12:28 AM
> Why Anecdotes Trump Data
Aargh, it's all about Trump these days..
 
67
Q: Did toddlers with guns claim more American lives than terrorism in 2015?

matt_blackThe Economist isn't a fan of Donald Trump as a presidential candidate. In an analysis of his ascendence to the Republican nomination they try to discern some of the factors. As part of their list of factors driving Trump support they argue that terrorism has become a national bogeyman while quo...

 
@StackedCrooked "Why Anecdotes Trudeau Data" doesn't have quite the same ring to it. OTOH, "... Merkel Data"...hmm...no, still doesn't work.
 
Wait, I have it: "Why Anecdotes Staller Data". (maybe that should be "... Illona Staller data"?
 
 
2 hours later…
2:12 AM
@milleniumbug Actually Macs use MB and KB correctly to signify 1'000KB and 1'000B respectively
And I think that Linux too
> For example, all versions of the Microsoft Windows operating system show a file of 220 bytes as "1.00 MB" or "1,024 KB" in its file properties dialog and show a file of 106 (1000000) bytes as 976 KB.

All versions of Apple's operating systems had the same behavior until Mac OS X version 10.6, which instead uses megabytes for all file and disk sizes, so it reports a 106 byte file as 1 MB.[9][10]

The Ubuntu developer Canonical implemented an updated units policy in 2010 and as of Ubuntu 10.10 all versions now adhere to the IEC binary prefix for base-2 units and the SI prefix for base-10 un
s/220/2^20/
s/106/10^6/
A very microsoftish approach indeed. Being the black sheep as always
"Fuck standards, who needs them"
 
 
1 hour later…
3:24 AM
~casting the reviving spell~
 
3:37 AM
but revivify has a limit of one round after death
 
4:04 AM
fake grey panda
 
Ben
@Telkitty aww
 
4:26 AM
theis guy could have retired at the age 14
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/05/10/this-14-year-old-turned-down-a-30m-offer-for-start-up.html
Full version
http://money.cnn.com/2016/05/10/technology/recmed-taylor-rosenthal-techcrunch-disrupt/
 
do not care
 
@Telkitty jelly :D
 
of kitty's wig
 
@Telkitty pretty cute
 
@milleniumbug Andrei-style ranges is the common alternative, as seen in D and Rust
 
4:39 AM
@Telkitty ooh looks like you run your own venture. no wonder.
~1800 people were too ^%$##$% to surf youtube.
https://www.udemy.com/how-i-made-100000-my-1st-year-selling-on-ebay-no-inventory/
oops. 13500 students enrolled...o_O
 
5:07 AM
HI
 
5:20 AM
@Mikhail Hey . My greeny friend. welcome back. Looks like I made this group sleepy with my bulshit . Hope you won't get affected :P
 
5:34 AM
what happens in linux if you create and delete billions of users (only having tens actuallly exist at any one time) over a long period of time. does that actually work okay?
it might catastrophically screw up if it wraps around right?
I should tias
 
Certainly, irrelevant but the number of users is limited by how the kernel is compiled, I think its 2^32
 
I thought the uid would be increasing 32 bit numbers. every dir entry, etc, has 2
the thought crossed my mind about (repeatedly) creating a temporary user to tunnel through the vps and I projected ahead running it for a while :D
bad idea, should just reuse existing pool of users
 
@doug65536 Billion Users, You hacked facebook? :P
 
if an infinite loop around useradd userdel wrecks the system, that would be funny
 
Want to use std::array but don't want to include #include <array> due to keep compile times down...
 
5:45 AM
make -j 8
 
there are no easy answers
 
fast cpu, lots of ram, os with fast i/o, parallel build
 
All, that just to use std::array, what a waste
 
vs has a parallel build option somewhere in the project (I think it still does anyway)
 
I'm already using this stuff, anyways, I think I'm going to use a tuple (which somehow is mysteriously included)
 
5:52 AM
don't limit yourself by how long it takes to compile headers. seriously?
I couldn't care less how long it takes to compile, if I am happy with implementation
the DRY principle makes your compiles fast already
those longer compile times are caused by the compiler knowing every little detail about everything that is happening, resulting in near ideal code generation (ideally, lol)
 
@Mikhail nearly all of my code uses not only tuples, but many tuple utilities/algorithms of my own
 
or by you dumping in lots of unused headers
 
in a variadic world, it’s a very pervasive utility
 
Indeed, std::make_integer_sequence is a god send, although I'm using MSVC2013
so FML
 
variadic/tuple/indices is indeed a trinity of sorts
receive multiple things, pack them, unpack them
 
5:57 AM
@LucDanton yeah, they all cause you to need the others
apply is a powerful concept, like piecewise_construct using a tuple as constructor arguments
 
I used to not think much of the fact that tuples are a library feature, but nowadays I’m tipping towards the 'too important not to be a language feature' side—as long as the language feature is not just the tuple data types, but a lot of the machinery that should come with
 
We also need multiple return types, like in Python. Containers for the sake of return types is waste of time.
 
Python has single return, but a good tuple(/iterable) story
 
same thing :-)
 
technically, no. you can design a language to have multiple returns such that it’s comparable to what Python does with respect to e.g. assignment and function calls, but then you’re missing a feature when you want to e.g. store the result of a function type in data
 
Ven
6:04 AM
Hi.
 
local year,month,day = someString:match('(%d+)/(%d+)/(%d+)'); in lua
that's pretty neat imho
don't need to assign match array entries to reasonable names on separate lines
the idea is totally incompatible with c++ though, pretty much
I suppose you could get close by returning a tuple and tie'ing it to variables
 
Ven
How'd you handle "no match" then? Exception?
 
compile time
 
year would be nil (and the next 2 would be nil too because nothing assigned to them)
 
lol
> i dont think the problem is actually the literal words "i dont know what to program." the problem is that nothing worth programming (an infinite set of things) is worth the time required to program it. it feels very inefficient to do personal projects.
Hm, interesting point.
 
6:16 AM
it is the journey that makes it worthwhile, not the destination
 
Its fucking 1:16AM and I'm still at work, not worth it (most of the time)
 
@doug65536 But there is a pot of gold at the end of that rainbow, right?
 
@Mikhail exactly what do you do for a living?
 
Grad school now, PhD in microscopes
 
@fredoverflow rewards come for all good work
nice thing about this industry is, regardless of the monetary gain, you grow yourself so much
 
6:20 AM
if you want to grow, you need to experience in a few industries
I am a firm believer that people (especially the lucky ones) are not screws, they should learn while contribute to the societies while still having a good time
 
That is the definition of a dilettante
 
I disagree
 
The ivory tower is steep, if you want to succeed, work on a single domain for a long long time.
 
define succeed
 
Make a contribution to a field of knowledge
 
6:23 AM
but people can't live on knowledge alone
 
Ven
@fredoverflow that's literally been such a problem for me, I have a project to create a website to list programming project ideas
 
people need to eat, living in a house (or apartment)
knowledge is useless unless you can make good use of it
 
@Ven I guess it's a good thing then that I don't have Netflix :)
 
Now I am becoming more and more practical
 
@Ven You should also file patents on them :-)
 
6:27 AM
@BartekBanachewicz When I first tried Java on personal projects a decade ago, I was very pleasantly surprised that a full rebuild on middle-sized projects took just 1 or 2 seconds. Will modules get us in that ballpark? Or will C++ always be slow?
 
it parsed to an AST and bytecode fast, sure. easy
realizing templates/optimizing/register allocation/codegen/linking are expensive
 
What about D, isn't that much faster than C++ when it comes to compilation?
 
isnt the whole point pushing as much computation up front as possible to make the resulting code do as little as possible at runtime? if it didnt do that, it wouldnt be c++
 
Ven
@fredoverflow oh, I don't either, I just play games instead
 
@doug65536 Isn't compiling C++ mostly slow because of the preprocessor?
 
6:32 AM
well yeah it redundantly reparses a lot and the whole compilation process is optimized for not having any memory, it can forget about the entire program except one unit
then linking becomes lots of name lookups and copying binary blocks (implementable with no memory)
 
@Ven I don't enjoy playing video games, but I enjoy watching other people do it :)
 
@fredoverflow templates as well
 
over time we started to blow memory on things to speed them up, but the big picture is optimized for the compiler only seeing part of the program at once
it is likely that (much) older compilers would only "think" about one function at a time and they would rely on the assembler and linker to catch things :)
of course, C++ requires a real symbol table lol
 
Ven
@fredoverflow it really is like netflix, then :p
 
some sort of precompiled headers are the workaround, if you insist on faster compiles. it sidesteps reparsing a bunch of nested include files every compilation unit
if we don't have modules by now, and it was removed from C++03 (right?) when will we
we almost had #import iirc ( wait no, you could put the definition of a template outside the header)
 
6:45 AM
@EtiennedeMartel 's been fixed for ages I think
@набиячлэвэлиь That's just 0
> C++ requires a real symbol table lol
what
Ah. During compilation
 
What I struggle with is why not have something similar to automatic header precompiling in the form of caching? I assume the compiler implements this already but its not clear to a developer when the code they write thrashes that cache. What we need is a tool that organizes includes to avoid duplicates, so that caching becomes easy.
 
yeah. I was talking about why the compilation process is so inherently slow for C++ (all optimized to have a tiny bit of the program in memory at once)
 
Complexity. Caching is a tricky problem.
Most compilers have it, and most developers quickly disable it to keep their sanities
 
Indeed, we need to reduce the complexity by making the order of includes more rigid
 
@sehe exactly. I disable it asap if it is on by default :)
 
6:48 AM
@Mikhail Meh. It was never about the order. That's just increasing the opportunity for cache, does nothing for complexity
The include model and the common implementation using files is such that you can't really cache, because of file system races. You'll have to re-read anyways, perhaps skipping the parse/AST building if you have a cache match
 
#include A, B cache that #include A,B,C cache that, heck you can probably use the built in recompiled header mechanism to do this
 
So. Ask for compilers to store runtime/standard library headers in private archives/in memory.
@Mikhail It's what that is
 
@sehe I want a different model than batch compilation actually
 
Of course. The premise of the discussion was "if we don't have modules, what should be done"
 
you need to be able to rapidly insert big blocks of symbols into the symbol table and deserialize AST/bytecode into memory faster than the parse would have been\
 
6:51 AM
@doug65536 I just don't do C++ anymore. Problem solved.
 
@sehe So, I was told the problem is that in real C++ codes the number of permutations grows very quickly. Thats why we need a static analysis tool that yells at us when we #include A, B and #include B,A.
 
@fredoverflow I approve
@Mikhail lololol
 
@Mikhail That's only one part of the trouble though (this chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/30464034#30464034)
 
part of the problem is that the symbol table gets huge in c++, so fast load/caching/etc is useless, it is just hard to find matches
 
If you want to fix that, fix the include model. The include model is stateful. It will never be convenient for analysis/build process optimization
 
6:53 AM
use more ram then
inb4 VS using linear search
 
inb4 download more ram link
 
@doug65536 Well. I can hardly believe that's a real problem. WIth proper datastructures comes proper support
 
@sehe I'm not sure how much of an issue this is because, the program at the end of the day compiles so it probably can fit in the ram.
 
@sehe I don’t think it’s a matter of course
 
All PLs come with standard libraries. All of them come with quite vast symbol tables
@LucDanton <raises-brow/>
 
6:55 AM
@sehe Yeah, so we can have the compiler automatically group stuff into 'modules' based on the include (or a cache)
 
We can. But not without changing the language
 
@sehe even if you had full O(1), sometimes you need to search for a symbol right? so you bang on it repeatedly. mangled names can reach ridiculous lengths
 
Sure, but most headers written since 1999 can be grouped/cached.
 
How do you think other programming languages work? My idea is that any language with "deep optimization" (Haskell, C++, Rust, D?) will always expand this tree of dependencies at the costs of lookups. It's inevitable.
 
you cant just go bang one lookup, you follow chains of scopes
 
6:57 AM
@sehe e.g. image development seems to only be remembered in certain circles and is more or less a very arcane and historical topic. otoh there is a lot of fixation on tooling/interactivity i.e. actual developer needs which are harder to satisfy than they could be as long as we stay fixated on batch compiling
brb groceries
 
Of course, it's not so inevitable when compiling to bytecode, or when foregoing these optimizations (you can just stop at the first symbol and emit an address label for it)
 
@LucDanton image dev? As in Smalltalk?
 
apparently the term "spaghetti stack" isn't cool anymore
the old page was titled spaghetti stacks iirc
 
@sehe The problem is that C++ even in debug mode compiles horrendously slow
compare that to JS which doesn't compile at all and typically runs faster than debug C++
4
 
7:05 AM
js trace compiles it though
 
the what
 
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz transpiler too good
If rightfold moves code from one language to another, is it transpiling?
 
didn't we agree to not use "transpiler" and "transpilation" here
 
it interprets through the 1st time, and generates asm for it as it goes, when it loops it uses the asm code, but checks for the types not changing. if a type changes it goes back to trace mode and makes a version for that type, etc
 
@Ven is it transpiling
for all you know he might just be a sequence of bytes
 
Ven
7:06 AM
okay
 
nwp
@BartekBanachewicz rightfold is a bot confirmed
I so want to be past mount stupid when it comes to C++, but the more I learn the more there is
 
@BartekBanachewicz Huh. Of course. What does debug mode have to do with things (did you mean "optimizations disabled"? That's not what I meant. Because C++ with optimizations fully disabled would be ridiculous)
 
Yes, "optimizations fully disabled" typically means the debug build
 
var x = function(a) { return a + 2; }; x(2); x('2'); < after execution beginning of x function will have a fork where it can do the "a is a string" machine code, or "a is a number" machine code
 
or "development" build
 
7:12 AM
@BartekBanachewicz I'd be interested in samples of this.
@BartekBanachewicz No it doesn't. And "fully disabled" is a non-starter in c++
 
@sehe That's what VS does.
 
I don't believe it for a second.
 
And that's what I did every single time when writing C++
 
You wrote compilers?
 
there's the /Od switch right
 
7:13 AM
VS also does index checking, on things like std::vector. For example, many number crunching libraries like CGAL explicitly disable this kind of checking, even in debug builds, for their containers owing to slow performance.
 
nwp
even in debug it does return value optimization and the like
 
If you fully don't inline a thing in modern C++ code, you should be surprised if anything actually ran
 
the callsite of the x('2') would be fixed up to call the string version directly
 
@nwp eh that matters really less if your iterators have 100x overhead
IME the difference between /Od and /O2 ranges in 15x-180x
 
@BartekBanachewicz That's the checked iterators thing @Mikhail mentioned
 
7:15 AM
and that's what you want when you're, um, writing the app
 
@BartekBanachewicz Meh. The fact that there is a large difference (well, duh!) doesn't mean that "Debug build" is fully unoptimized
 
release builds are for releasing
 
And the context was discussing how much symbol table lookup was required during compilation. That's not gone when compiling in debug mode
 
Personally, I had to disable that index checking stuff because I wasn't able to debug my image processing app. Also QVector doesn't have that stuff.
 
@BartekBanachewicz (don't get sidetracked)
 
7:16 AM
@Mikhail you can disable checked iterators if it is killing performance too much. some #define
 
He knows
 
ya I figured. it really kills performance though, especially for multithreaded stuff
 
Good old lounge, devolving discussions to repeats of what we already know.
 
every operation touches everything sometimes, so you thrash the cache like crazy
I remember when -O0 meant, properly make debuggable code, that makes it reread every variable and store everything out on each line, so you can change values in the debugger and have a chance of it working. those days are long gone
you could even move the instruction pointer to another line and expect it to work
if you go "oh crap" and step one line too far over an idempotent operation, you could reliably just make it run that line again
someone on gcc team thinks I want fast -O0 code. seriously?
now they have some fancy "tracking values" or something that is supposed to keep track of when it is in a register and when it is in memory, etc. doesn't really work
 
Ven
@sehe hi
 
pressure = force / area
 
@doug65536 What's your point? Would you rather have no clue what is in register? Would you rather have debug builds that are actually unusable?
 
@sehe yeah
 
given force , pressure depends on the area, or spot
so G-pressure = G-force / ?
 
@sehe his total lack of concern for the aircraft's structural integrity is amusing
 
7:33 AM
I assume you mean the passenger. Yeah. He's not very fearsome.
I think the pilot just shows a shit ton of experience
 
yeah, the passenger
@Telkitty multiplication of your apparent weight by strong acceleration
weightlessness or apparent negative "weight" pulling you out of your seat for values below 1 and 0
@sehe older versions of gcc made perfectly debuggable code that always had all variables accessible in the debugger, modern ones optimize -O0 code and have the "home" location of a given variable randomly moving around and having lots of variables that dont even exist because of live range analysis
 
Older versions of GCC compiled older code.
 
I see <optimized out> in the debugger all the time, in -O0 code, lol
 
Ven
all the fucking time.
 
somehow the value of the 'this' pointer for the function call it is about to make is optimized out, lol
 
7:43 AM
> The Meme has moved on my friend don't get left behind in this dark dank world.
sage advice
 
@sehe lol and it's a prop plane
but the fact the pilot is wearing glasses makes me feel better about myself
I'm totes doing it one day
 
user1804599
Railscasts is a really nice colour scheme.
 
@Mikhail Include array is very cheap.
At least according to my measurements on Linux + GCC.
 
Ven
@rightfold welcome back :)
 
user1804599
8:15 AM
Thanks!
 
Ven
@rightfold should I have a separate module that represents my "base scope"?
 
user1804599
You could.
 
user1804599
With all the prelude/primitive stuff in it.
 
Ven
yeah.
 
user1804599
SNEK currently does that in main, but it shouldn't be there really.
 
Ven
Or maybe I should just have a "scope" module, a the ctor function should do that
@rightfold lol if you don't Map.fromList
 
user1804599
Ugly because there's three maps.
 
user1804599
eKSs is a map of kind symbols, eTSs is a map of type symbols, eVSs is a map of value symbols.
 
user1804599
Short for "Environment {Kind,Type,Value} SymbolS"
 
Ven
okay
 
8:23 AM
@BartekBanachewicz nice
 
Ven
should a scope be anything more than a Map and a parent?
 
@Ven a red dot and mil markings can help
 
Ven
thanks
but won't the red dot distract the cat?
 
good point, I haven’t thought of that
 
@BartekBanachewicz what about haskell?
 
user1804599
8:35 AM
@Ven It depends.
 
> the air is coming into the combustion chamber faster than the air-fuel mixture in the combustion chamber can expand when burned
 
Ven
wait wtf
 
I was missing this essential bit of information my whole life
 
user1804599
If you want multiple definitions in the same scope (i.e. let x = 1; let x = 2; is error, not shadow), then you need a parent. Otherwise, you don't.
 
@JohanLarsson what about it
 
user1804599
8:36 AM
If you want different namespaces for types and values, you need two maps.
 
@BartekBanachewicz c# > haskell?
 
Ven
@rightfold I need a parent as a simplification to copying every values
since "no immutability"
 
user1804599
I have no idea what that means.
 
Ven
@rightfold why does sub f { 2 if 0 }; f give 0? numeric context?
 
user1804599
Updating a map in Haskell won't copy all values.
 
Ven
8:36 AM
33 secs ago, by Ven
since "no immutability"
I said that ^ because I'm writing this in Perl.
 
@JohanLarsson it builds faster, but that's about where the advantages end
 
user1804599
@Ven It gives undef, which is 0 when used as a number.
 
user1804599
@Ven Oh. :P
 
Ven
@rightfold mkay
I just "say"'d it
 
user1804599
SSCCE?
 
user1804599
8:38 AM
undef in string context is the empty string
 
Ven
@rightfold sub f { 2 if 0 }; say f
 
also
A turboshaft engine is a form of gas turbine which is optimized to produce shaft power rather than jet thrust. In concept, turboshaft engines are very similar to turbojets, with additional turbine expansion to extract heat energy from the exhaust and convert it into output shaft power. They are even more similar to turboprops, with only minor differences, and a single engine is often sold in both forms. Turboshaft engines are commonly used in applications that require a sustained high power output, high reliability, small size, and light weight. These include helicopters, auxiliary power units...
this is amazing
how could I live my life not knowing all this
 
Ben
@Bartek are you free to join a TS server? :)
 
I'm at work
 
Ben
damn
I wish I had work to be at.
 
8:42 AM
get a job then?
 
user1804599
@Ven hmm, it appears it returns the condition if it's false
 
user1804599
it prints the empty string if you make it 2 if ''
 
Ven
WAT
 
Ben
@BartekBanachewicz welp, I don't have a CS degree, nobody likes me, not the most effective communicator, etc.
 
user1804599
So $x if $y is syntactic sugar for $y && $x.
 
Ven
8:43 AM
@rightfold why does say f + 5 still print 0 ._.
 
@Ben I don't have a CS degree, a lot of people dislike me and yet I still have a job
 
Ven
I don't have a CS degree either, and everybody hates me \o/
 
fairly pathological compile 1 sec for whole thing including link and everything
 
@BartekBanachewicz What has the world come to. ;)
 
user1804599
@Ven LOL WTF
 
user1804599
8:45 AM
 
Ven
@rightfold pretty WTF.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes :D
those things are so unbelievably sexy
 
Ben
@BartekBanachewicz I love jet engines.
 
this is a turbofan actually
 
high-bypass turbofan to be precise
 
8:46 AM
true.
 
so beautiful. power to weight ratio coming out its ears
 
i wonder if they cover all of the pipes in the middle though
intuitively you don't want turbulences inside of the engine
 
cooling?
 
oh maybe
 
nice 700km/h -78C air going over it :)
 
8:48 AM
well, you could still put a nicely shaped radiator or something there
 
turbine?
 
Ben
@Bartek do you have any good planning strategies for projects?
 
@Ben @rightfold has
1) start project
2) abandon it
3
 
Ben
@BartekBanachewicz I've done that many times before.
 
8:51 AM
while (project.is(fun)) workOn(project);
 
pff imperative peasant
 
A turbine (from the Latin turbo, a vortex, related to the Greek τύρβη, tyrbē, meaning "turbulence"), is a rotary mechanical device that extracts energy from a fluid flow and converts it into useful work. A turbine is a turbomachine with at least one moving part called a rotor assembly, which is a shaft or drum with blades attached. Moving fluid acts on the blades so that they move and impart rotational energy to the rotor. Early turbine examples are windmills and waterwheels. Gas, steam, and water turbines have a casing around the blades that contains and controls the working fluid. Credit for...
 
I know what a turbine is.
 
an airliner engine actually produces torque, geared down through a gearbox, to around 3600 rpm, which drives the fan
the jet's thrust is negligible
 
user1804599
@Ven interesting github.com/rightfold/iron/blob/master/src/ir/type_.rs#L10-L13 because unit = 1 (true), void = 0 (false), and this is the same as the truth table for implication that way.
 
Ben
8:54 AM
Nevermind
I found the definition.
 
if you want to pour massive quantities of fuel into an engine to get enormous thrust, then a "real" (non-turbofan) jet is better
if you want to carry half a million pounds through thin air for 8 hours, turbofan is better
 
@doug65536 Fuck pounds.
 
tell that to the airline industry, lol
people have died because of mixing up pounds and kg of fuel
 

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