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7:00 AM
Yup
 
what do you mean by flat
 
I'm still at that point where everything kind of makes sense and seems beautiful, but I have yet to see the skeletons in the closet
 
7:23 AM
@AngryLettuce did it worked
 
@LucDanton Yeah it was a for (auto&& p : some_function() left alone on a line
 
do you even compiler theory
 
yes just that
 
> Permission denied (publickey).
._.
 
@LucDanton pls
j'en ai bouffé
et dire que je voulais en faire ma carrière
rip
 
7:35 AM
Les gens t'auraient demandés des compil 80's
Oh hi Mark guise
 
> whose second operand is an xvalue of type T1, and whose third operand is an xvalue of type T2
who wrote this crap
this is part of the spec for std::common_type
this is at best an under specification
@JohannesSchaub-litb what happened to the spec for std::common_type?
 
7:54 AM
Why can't I ever fall asleep
at a decent time.
 
ikr
 
> […] in particular in generic codes, […]
authored by Gabriel Dos Reis, Herb Sutter and Jonathan Caves
 
Le mot d'ordre ici c'est "torcher le plus vite possible"
 
@AngryLettuce faut bouger son cul
 
@Mr.kbok
Where's @Tony :(
 
8:01 AM
@AngryLettuce toot le monge!
 
yes, tooting helps
 
hi
 
@AngryLettuce Oh ici aussi!
 
@AngryLettuce ça te dérange parce que t’es anal c’est ça
 
considering how things are going this week I'll probably get smashed on friday again
 
8:04 AM
cool
 
@AngryLettuce You should have let at least a 2-message gap between this and @LucDanton's one :D
 
@LucDanton au contraire
 
Il a le bon pseudo pour parler d'anal B)
 
Comment ça ?
 
8:07 AM
vaut mieux?
 
inb4 meta storm
 
la discussion ce matin a une certaine classe[FR]
 
@LucDanton WTaF
 
ah tiens y’a un cyclim.se c’est pratique ça
 
@sehe my only explanation is that they are secretly indian
 
8:09 AM
It's the sad states of affairs
1 message moved to bin
Who the hell flagged it though. Please /talk/ about it instead
 
@sehe unlikely to be a typo, it appears on several occasions
 
isn't it an generic codes
 
@LucDanton Les vrais savent
 
> By generic codes, we don’t just mean “template codes”.
 
OMDʸWTaF-B㏃
> ATTENTION: CE SITE N’EST PAS UN SITE SUR LE CYCLIMSE
 
guys
where's strict aliasing rules in sea pee pee standard again
I need to bookmark it
 
@LucDanton Those fonts, too
 
@Rapptz 3.10/10
 
danke
 
no I’m rating your joke
 
8:18 AM
"Sure the behaviour is technically undefined but if you're writing low-level code then you should know what your code does."
wwjd
cause this is my signal to give up all hope
 
@WGhost heyyy there
 
@sehe I think that’s a Gabriel thing
 
Bad
 
Sample of one of our class's destructor:
 
That's brief
 
8:21 AM
SomeClass::~SomeClass() {
    Init(NULL);
    Finish();
}
 
yeah as it so happens I’m in a Sutter, Stroustrup, Dos Reis paper and it looks the same
 
@LucDanton oh yeah I was just thinking about this today
I wonder if this will be standardised
 
@Rerito is that a bad destructor
 
@Rapptz solid arguments and big names behind it makes it a good candidate, although of course not a shoe-in either
at worst that’s the sort of paper that becomes influential down the line
 
@Prismatic Well, I'm sure it does what needs to be done but... Init() in a destructor... That sounds quite messed up to me...
 
8:26 AM
Yeah, I was thinking that calling Init with NULL does something special (maybe uninitialize?)
 
@Rerito good quality
May 5 '14 at 8:19, by presius litel snoflek
@FredOverflow I did already and my complaints fall in a deaf ear. Q: -Why do you have 16 nested if?. A:-Well, what's wrong with that?. And so on.
ahhh sweet memories
 
you havent changed your name in awhile @AngryLettuce
 
he's probably still an angry lettuce then?
 
I've got two coworkers that are on some documentation tasks. So they're reviewing the code to establish UML diagrams and whatnot... They discover WTFs on a daily basis. It's hilarious
 
user1804599
% echo world | sed 'ihello\'
hello
world
 
user1804599
8:31 AM
wooo my first non-substituting sed program!
 
don't the diagrams come first normally?
 
Yes. That's the result of 5 years of shotgun programming :')
 
are you enjoying it
 
@AlexM. I guess that way you save yourself the retconning of the diagrams to the actual implementation :p
 
@AngryLettuce Since I'm doing crappy HMI maintenance, not quite...
 
8:34 AM
@melak47 fair point
I'd make a funny drawing of an uml diagram that fits every project ever known to mankind
but I can't do it now :<
 
Quote from my product manager: "Ne pas réfléchir, c'est bien, parce qu'on est efficace."
8
 
@Rerito that still sounds like a low wtf/min rate :)
 
such is life, enclosing your sense of humor at times
 
(Translation: "No thinking is good, because we get efficient")
 
@Rerito do not use reflection, it's good, parcels are more efficient
nailed it
 
8:36 AM
> We believe that the const key is a basic design flaw in the original map specification which we now have no way to fix because the value type is exposed directly by the API.
 
@AlexM. hey sexy
 
@Rerito maybe a botched attempt at "don’t be clever"?
 
@LucDanton Yeah smth like that
 
did you guys notice how middle clicking a video in youtubes search results opens it in the same tab
unless you middle click the title or sth
so annoying
 
yes, I have middle click failures on several sites
fairly recent, too
 
8:46 AM
probably a webdev movement trying to revolutionize human <-> internetz interaction
 
those damn programmers trying to be smart with that jabbascript :(
 
hey alex is no longer rapptz
 
user1804599
 
@jaggedSpire Working pays off in the night: I just got the equivalency for User Interface Design at my University as compared to a summer course. So I'm taking a total of 3 courses this summer, and once I finish my current semester I'm at a pretty wonderful 4-4 split for my senior year. :D
 
@Madara I finally compiled all the patterns for שלמים conjugations, including stress changes, vowel shifts, and dagesh variations. i.imgur.com/kHC08mB.jpg. I probably won't pester you with such matters again any time soon.
 
9:02 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Looking good!
It's customary to replace the root letters with פ ע ל when talking about verb בניינים
So פעל in future females third-person would be תִּפְעַלְנָה
(Rather than blank placeholders)
I'll review the correctness when I have a bit more time
But at a first glance, looks really nice
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes mumble mumble icelandic runes mumbl- ban
 
@Rerito TRWTF is drawing UML diagrams from the code
 
user1804599
% cat /tmp/evenodd.p6
subset Even of Int where not * % 2;
subset Odd of Int where * % 2;
multi sub category(Even $n) { "even" }
multi sub category(Odd $n) { "odd" }
say category(1);
say category(2);
% perl6 /tmp/evenodd.p6
odd
even
 
user1804599
so cool
 
user1804599
multiple dispatch is great
 
9:11 AM
@slaphappy I know... But at least someone is trying to fill the lack of docs (well, the absence actually)
Fortunately I can wreck myself at the gym otherwise I'ld always be depressed
 
lol
 
welp nothing wrong with building docs now as long as you use them later
 
@slaphappy seriously
 
what
 
name collisions are furbidden
 
9:14 AM
so?
it's me
lol
 
no pretty sure you're mr. kokblok
 
yeah, but I figured I don't want to make it too easy for someone to trace me back here from my name
 
@Rapptz where seen? (yes, give up all hope, after checking the author didn't accidentally mean IB)
 
@slaphappy I know, but it's still a collision
 
@AngryLettuce your mom is a collision
 
9:19 AM
@Madara I thought of that but that doesn't capture the middle dagesh :S Guess I could put a dagesh on the ayin, but that looks weird.
 
isn't dagesh the other name for isis or something
 
maybe gisis
 
user1804599
gisis christ
 
@Angry "Da'esh"
 
score
 
user1804599
9:22 AM
Gardesh
 
#JeSuisGharlie
 
@MadameElyse The video has generated lots of noise.
 
user1804599
#JesusCharlie
 
@LucDanton huh. Having mutable keys is far worse IMO. If they mean "inconvenient". Sure. But pair<K,V> already converts to pair<K const, V> implicitly. What more could one want (except a brain)
 
user1804599
@fredoverflow I don't really care.
 
9:24 AM
@fredoverflow is it worth watching?
 
user1804599
I don't know what the video is about, even.
 
> everything in his "Why does OOP not work" section seems to hinge on the idea that you can't include object references in messages... which as far as I can tell, is just a completely made-up requirement.
 
user1804599
I skimmed it but it didn't look very interesting.
 
That was actually an interesting point.
Erlang messages are pure values, I suppose?
 
user1804599
@fredoverflow You can send any Erlang value as a message.
 
9:24 AM
@slaphappy I watched the whole thing yesterday evening, and it didn't feel like a waste of time.
 
user1804599
That includes process IDs and functions.
 
But you can't send stuff "by reference", right?
 
@MadameElyse quite nice indeed
 
user1804599
@fredoverflow In Erlang, every value is immutable, so references are nonsensical.
 
Right. They guy argues that OOP is sending messages, but calling methods isn't if you pass references.
 
user1804599
9:25 AM
@fredoverflow However, in Erlang, "objects" are typically implemented as processes that loop indefinitely, processing incoming messages, and "object references" are process IDs, and method calls are messages sent to the process through its process ID.
 
> Even Erlang, which embodies shared-nothing message passing perhaps best of all, allows object references (in the form of process IDs) to be passed in messages.
Oh, maybe I should have read the whole comment :)
 
user1804599
@fredoverflow Objects in Erlang: ideone.com/ITMrlS
 
Ven
Yo, yo.
 
user1804599
In this case, with async method calls. For sync method calls you'd want the process to send a message back and you wait for that.
 
Ven
How's it going, lounge?
@MadameElyse use %% and !%% :P
 
user1804599
9:30 AM
Loungelike.
 
user1804599
@Ven Interesting.
 
Ven
Perl 6 auto-generates meta and hyper-ops for you, if you ask nicely
 
user1804599
@Ven is this a bug?
 
user1804599
10:19 < ely-se> m: grammar G { rule TOP { <r:sym<b>> }; proto rule r {*}; rule r:sym<a> { '1' }; rule r:sym<b> { '2' } }; G.parse('1').perl.say
10:19 <+camelia> rakudo-moar 770d10: OUTPUT«Match.new(ast => Any, list => (), hash => Map.new((:r(Match.new(ast => Any, list => (), hash => Map.new(()), orig => "1", to => 1, from => 0)))), orig => "1", to => 1, from => 0)␤»
 
user1804599
I think it should return a parse failure instead of a match.
 
9:33 AM
 
Ven
@MadameElyse tell masak about it :P
 
user1804599
@Ven why masak?
 
Ven
@MadameElyse he "manages" the bugtracker
 
@MadaraUchiha If you'll do that, I'll explain what the headings mean. "Segolate יחידה" refers to -e-et endings in present, instead of -ah; "plural stress" refers to the last root vowel becoming a shva due to the stress change in present plurals, "vowel stress" refers to the same in vowel suffixes; "vowel shift" refers to the last root vowel becoming patach due to consonantal suffixes (I later realized it always happens, but in certain binyanim it already is a patach).
 
Every time I read "vowel" my brain instantly translates it into "bowel". "bowel stress", "bowel shift"
 
9:36 AM
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix I did. Only for interop obviously (I'm not crazy)
@rubenvb CX++CLI is unsafe { C# }. The only reprieve is some level of static template support
 
user1804599
unsafe in C# is really silly.
 
user1804599
You can misuse P/Invoke and IntPtr without it, and you can't mark custom operations as unsafe.
 
Complains that the option to remove safety guards is not safely guarded
 
if someone casts one ptr type to another ptr type in an unsafe block in C# is that guaranteed to work?
 
@MadaraUchiha That's your brain adding dageshim :P
 
9:39 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes :D
 
user1804599
Rust does it much more nicely.
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix depends on your silly deadkey settings. Make it AltGr deadkeys
@CatPlusPlus ah you already said that
 
@sehe yeah, those are windows defaults
OTOH they're very reasonable defaults if you're not a programmer
 
Had to increase the font size in this window. Either I'm already tired or my astigmatism is getting worse.
 
Same here. I have been increasing fonts sizes for years now. I keep unzooming too because when it's comfortable to read, there's no overview anymore (page is cramped)
 
user1804599
9:44 AM
> EDEADLK
 
@CatPlusPlus Dead keys are a godsend if you're typing in a language with ~20 different accent+letter combinations.
 
@thecoshman FTFY
 
user1804599
Dead keys are terrible if you're programming.
 
Dead keys are a great subject of programmer debate. Now that space and tabs are deadbeat
@ElimGarak Wait. That's a science breakthrough. Until now, nothing have been observed exceeding lightspeed
@Puppy Thank you for blurring the image to prevent triggering me
@ElimGarak At first I was confused. Then I started to get giddy. Then I started to be enlightened. Now I've become a monk in the church of QA
 
user1804599
Hmm, what programming language shall I write my CSV editor in?
 
user1804599
9:54 AM
C++ is insane because encoding.
 
warning: sehe is going through the transcript
 
@sehe the topic of the paper is set/map splicing
 
I didn't see a paper. Yeah well, not with std::set/map then. And I'd think that is a good thing (we don't need more invitation to UB right)
@ElimGarak TIL India has a droid army for years already
 
Is there a way to do find replace on files in a folder?
 
@sehe you think it’s convenient you we can’t efficiently merge etc. some containers?
 
9:56 AM
preferable from within VS, need to change things in a bunch of project files
 
@sehe and I didn’t link to the paper because while I think it’s interesting in its own right, the quote I highlighted got me thinking and I wanted to share that in particular
 
@LucDanton Who said anything about convenient. I think it's good that the keys are explicitly const. Also, the containers could provide internal access in non-const way (because they know when the const cast would be legal, and what invariants to preserve)
@LucDanton It didn't get me thinking. Well. It did. It reminded me of how you can have more interesting datastructures with different trade-offs.
 
@sehe you said 'a good thing' which is vague, and I don’t like vagueness
 
Well. You came with a strawman - something I didn't claim, I don't like that :0
I've realized the limitations of const keys many times over and concluded I'll use something else when it hurts. But 90% of the time I like it enough
 
fight
 
10:02 AM
I don’t understand this message then. (What is the good thing, and in what way is it good?)
 
@LucDanton Simple. 1. I say non-const key invites UB. 2. You say "do you think it's convenient to not have feature Y or Z".
Unrelated IMO
 
@sehe it’s because I thought you said 'it’s a good thing we can’t merge', the question mark was me making sure that is what you said
 
@LucDanton (the good thing is that const key prevents accidental modification)
@LucDanton Ah. I hadn't seen a thing about merging. Sorry
@LucDanton Understood
 
oh, no link again
 
@sehe I prefer not programming in C++CLI than deactivating my dead keys.
 
10:05 AM
@sehe was a data race
 
retarded chrome caching aggressively localhost
 
@LucDanton hehe. Still not seeing it ? but it's ok, I get your intent with the question there
 
@AngryLettuce your expiries suck
 
@AngryLettuce why should it not?
 
@sehe splicing is the analogous list operation, merging is the more appropriate terminology for sets/maps—at least that’s how they put it and I mistakenly said 'set/map splicing' at first and tried to be more consistent later on
 
10:08 AM
Geebusfsckingkist.
1
Q: Microsoft WebDriver hangs while starting new Edge session, does not respond to further requests

juangjI'm using the Microsoft WebDriver server to automate Microsoft Edge. I was able to start up the browser the first 2-3 times I tried, but subsequent attempts seem to result in the WebDriver server hanging. When I send the new-session command: The WebDriver server logs that it received the /sess...

 
@ElimGarak poetic
 
They cannot do anything right. :(
 
@sehe as for the direct quote itself (enough about that non-paper), part of what made it stand out to me was some coincidental timing
I briefly brought up the topic before such as here
and another quote I can’t track, something about (im)mutability a property of variables and not types
 
@LucDanton totally with you on the second part. But I really think that explicitly const keys/elements are required (not desirable) in a general-purpose datastructure. Like with multi_index_container it would be well nigh impossible to check validity of your code otherwise. And changing an index slightly down the road would silently introduce a lot of UB that is near-impossible to track.
Safety above convenience
@LucDanton I remember that. Always have agreed. However, this is not interior as value_type is what gets externally iterated
 
user1804599
What does errno expand to in Windows?
 
10:13 AM
@sehe naw, think of e.g. std::pair<iterator,bool> insert( value_type&& value );
that can only immutably move from the key
 
That's usually perfectly optimizable right.
 
I think that’s partly what is meant when they say it’s an API mistake
 
Actually, I think (?) you can have a conversion-move-constructor (has pair<> got it?)
 
@sehe Stop trying to side with the devil
 
@sehe doesn’t matter, value.first is not mutable
 
10:15 AM
@LucDanton I think I understood all the way. And I believe it's the better trade off here
@AngryLettuce pfft. not trying
@LucDanton Of course it matters. Hang on
 
@sehe I’m demonstrating how "value_type is what gets externally iterated" is inaccurate, insert is no iteration
the std::initializer_list constructors take std::initializer_list<value_type>, too
not that you can mutably move from that of course :)
 
coliru.stacked-crooked.com/a/b45bd60f61b527a1 I don't see a reason why the pairs shouldn't be move constructed into the value_type
@LucDanton Mmm. At that level. Yeah. The prototype for insert could be less restrictive
 
@sehe the first pair it’s fine (into the temporary associated to the parameter), but after that it’s immutable move only
 
Yeah - just got it.
@LucDanton Hey, I bookmarked your silly coliru yesterday :) (slightly unrelated)
 
10:19 AM
morning
 
it’s actually quite tricky to figure out what value_type is meant to be, an issue which crops up in other contexts (e.g. iterators)
@sehe you monster
 
@LucDanton Yeah. I agree at these points value_type does hurt.
There should be something like insertion_type or insertion_compatible_type
 
@sehe well, don’t you agree it’s an interesting quote then?
2 hours ago, by Luc Danton
> We believe that the const key is a basic design flaw in the original map specification which we now have no way to fix because the value type is exposed directly by the API.
 
user1804599
 
0
A: Is there a downside to declaring variables with auto in C++?

Khaled A KhunaiferI think auto is good when used in a localized context, where the reader easily & obviously can deduct its type, or well documented with a comment of its type or a name that infer the actual type. Those who don't understand how it works might take it in the wrong ways, like using it instead of tem...

 
10:22 AM
@LucDanton Not really. /you/ made me think. By giving the cases where I agree it hurts. But I don't agree it's a "basic design flaw". You are starting to make me think that /maybe/ the best fix would be a totally different design without the const members BUT, and that's a big but, not sacrificing the protection
 
.. I wonder if I have I made a mistake in there
 
@sehe nobody is advocating to remove a const FTR
that’s also in the quote, how we’re stuck with the API
std::pair<const K, V> is not going anywhere
 
@LucDanton I think the second part ("we now have no way to fix because the value type is exposed") reconfirmed my quick verdict - the friction points don't seem to suffer from this at all - new overloads can be freely added. Existing overloads can be modified as long as they don't break existing code (hell all of c++11 standard library did this for move semantics)
 
@sehe I don’t think that sort of API tweak is good software engineering, but that’s sort of a different discussion
 
@LucDanton Yup, but the reasoning was off. The parts where value_type is strictly imposed are the parts where it is useful, right
@LucDanton Curious about the alternative (besides Rust)
 
10:27 AM
because you have to step out of the language to figure out if this works or not; or maybe put not as arcanely doing correct versioning/compatibility without language support is silly
@sehe versioning
 
Not really that much difference. Even with versioning, you'd still make the changes non-intrusive for adoption
 
versioning with migration plans etc., something in the type system
not the 'well, we applied a patch to the compiler and threw it a N codebases and everything appears to work, so why not do it' approach
one is a 'I know this is correct' approach, the other is an 'I can’t figure out what can go wrong even though I’ve looked very hard into it' approach
@sehe I don’t know
 
@ElimGarak where'd you got the missile from?
 
@LucDanton That's more like saying "the way in which the API is evolved could be improved". That's a different process more than a different evolution/goal
 
(and in general I can see how if you find superficial, source-only compatibility acceptable then the conclusion downgrades from 'we have no way to fix it' to 'file a defect and submit a proposal' by the way)
@sehe yeah as I’ve said it’s a different discussion :)
 
10:34 AM
I don't see how the improvements would be not "deeply compatible"
 
enters the lounge
 
Inventor of Quicksort sits 3m away and gives a lecture
:D
 
I mean, it's not as if things suddenly get moved from without consent. Rvalue refs "give consent" by default. This is a c++11 feature
 
// yes this method is useless
// I'm sure it had a brilliant purposed envisioned one day though
 
@sehe in this particular case I haven’t really thought about it too much, which is precisely part of why I dislike the approach in general because the human has to think so much about it with tooling help—the human sucks and will get it wrong some of the time
 
10:35 AM
typo is sic
 
@AngryLettuce As well a grammar checked comments
 
and even if/when it’s done 'right' I still think the approach of 'take your C++03 source, change the flag to -std=c++14, rebuild and hope for the best' leaves a lot to be desired
 
@LucDanton granted. The process could be improved. I think the status quo is not so bad (with the DRs that arise). Look at the competition.
Only .NET seems to have its act somewhat together (that is, after the Framework 1.1 vs 2 debacle). And they too are still converging, refactoring the whol framework into smaller bits so versioning makes more sense across all platforms
@LucDanton Actually, I think that is a strong feature. (It's like "take you C code and compile it in C++ mode"). I suspect live could get considerably better with modules though. I hope modules will get some kind of version level attached
 
std=c++13.9
 
@sehe everybody doing something as badly as one another doesn’t mean it’s acceptable to keep doing it badly yourself; I know as much, you know as much
 
10:41 AM
I agree things can be improved. I just said "I think the status quo is not so bad"
 
keep in mind I have an interest in such matters in part precisely because nobody dares do it, I’m of the opinion it’s a very hard challenge
 
It clearly is.
 
I told you it’s an interesting quote
not to mention the connections to variance and some forms of subtying, reckless mutability vs freezing/thawing, etc.
 
Mmm. I think the discussion behind it was. The quote struck me as absolutist ("basic design flaw", nah not so much "can't fix", nah not so much)
 
well, value_type is fairly close to the base of the design isn’t it
 
10:45 AM
@LucDanton Yeah. That's why new languages are in fact new languages. They're required and I don't think we can backport all that innovation as "unintrusive changes". I don't think that's a flaw either. That's just engineering to me.
@LucDanton But that's not the flaw.
@AngryLettuce And the corresponding define, obviously -D__cplusplus =13_89999999999999999965305530480463858111761510372161865234375
 
@sehe well, part of it is on me—it was really my intent to extract it and re-contextualise it in the light of previous talks about const etc.
 
@LucDanton If you're going to consider things like that you need radically different seperation levels of abstraction. Haskell comes to mind. Rust undoubtedly pins quite a few design choices down while allowing for these innovations (w.r.t. mutability) that you just mentioned C++ would not be able to absorb or accomodate easily
 
Rust deals with some of it by not dealing with it though (i.e. mutability appears a lot less in the type system, relative to C++), I don’t think it’s a good example
 
@LucDanton Yup. I got it. Thanks for sketching the background that made it interesting! It is interesting
 
Is this normal? I opened 1 instance of Chrome, a bunch turn up in the resource manager ..
 
10:55 AM
chrome uses multiple processes, one for each tab iirc
 
I had 2 tabs open
 
Yawns
 
@ElimGarak lol
 
stop laughing :'(
 
@TelkittytheWebDeveloper why hide process names?
 

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