« first day (1602 days earlier)      last day (3347 days later) » 

11:00 PM
nobody in Windows-land expects binary compat between releases.
 
yes but they don't have a system c++ library everybody uses
 
@ThePhD and on wednesdays
 
so breaking it is a non-issue.
 
@Mgetz ?
 
Linux-land is a very different matter though.
 
11:00 PM
using msvcrt or the c++ equivalent is not supported
 
user3010322
I'm not sure why it has to be different in linux land it is different, though?
 
user3010322
Like, why can't they break the compat by releasing newer versions of their standard libs?
 
user3010322
THe only ones it'll affect would be the ones that dynamically link, right?
 
they can, and that's exactly what they're going to do.
it's simply a question of how often.
 
Yeah, it would follow. Linus takes broken userspace behavior as more correct than standards conforming behavior.
 
11:01 PM
in VC++ they do it every release, in Linux they prefer to go decades without breaking.
 
user3010322
So it's just a matter of preference?
 
That doesn't stop me from considering that approach to be absurdly broken. ;)
 
more a matter of what you require.
 
@sehe they have msvcirt but it's not supported and nobody links to it
I don't even think many system components link to it
 
I honestly don't really think that the std::string thing is particularly important.
 
11:02 PM
@райтфолд Today, I wrote an email to Martin Odersky, and he already replied :)
 
I don't even remember what part of the interface is broken by COW.
 
user1804599
@FredOverflow nice.
 
@Mgetz sorry, how does MSVC not having a standard library implementation? Or how is it "not supported?
 
I honestly think std::string needs to be replaced
 
user1804599
@FredOverflow Today, I wrote the non-parsing part of my compiler and hello world now works.
 
11:03 PM
that too.
 
user1804599
Now I'm implementing conditional expressions.
 
What do you mean "non-parsing"? You start with an AST?
 
semantic analysis.
 
I don’t mind having a byte (or not-so-byte) vector with a separate type from other vectors too much. So obsoleted I don’t know; superseded maybe.
 
@sehe because the versions you are allowed to use are not the system CRT they are versioned CRTs. Linking to msvcrt and msvcirt is explicitly forbidden
 
user1804599
11:04 PM
@FredOverflow Yes.
 
user1804599
I wrote the parser yesterday.
 
@LucDanton I don't see any purpose in std::string really. If you need a string, then better to use something that can handle Unicode in a remotely sane way. If you need a bunch of bytes, std::vector<char>.
 
@Mgetz ah you mean, explicitly linking. Of course, they will still link to it (by manifest) and it is very much supported. Moreover, every other program on windows uses it
 
@Puppy Passing stuff around. Sometimes a code unit is a code unit.
 
@sehe only indirectly via system dlls
 
11:05 PM
So?
 
@LucDanton That would be helpful if code units were helpful, which by and large they are not.
 
oh nevermind, my original point has gotten lost at this point
 
@Mgetz By the way, I have read somewhere that this whole "lockdown" is going to be phased out again. I'd almost find the article but I'm a bit busy
 
@sehe I recall.. but then they never really explained the 'how'
 
or in other words, passing code units around is only useful if the final destination uses code units, which is fairly senseless because you would have to convert to either bytes or codepoints to do anything useful.
 
11:06 PM
@Puppy Well yeah they are helpful. You have to realise the Unicode somehow.
 
user1804599
@FredOverflow what did you write him?
 
@LucDanton Sure, but that is more of an implementation detail than something the user needs to handle.
 
I guess they are assuming that now that they have a c99 conformant CRT they can just add on to it as the C++ standard requires?
 
@Mgetz Is it not about ODR and breakage? Because, exactly when what gets linked is hardly relevant for ODR. The only thing is that SxS combined with manifest linking indeed prevents trouble. At the cost of spending 20GiB of libraries in SxS cache
 
@Puppy Segregating the types by code unit seems very sensible.
 
11:08 PM
@sehe SxS never had 20gb in it... but explorer doesn't know how to navigate hardlinks
 
@LucDanton Why? They all offer the same operations.
 
Suppose a program sometimes communicates with one party that wants code unit X, and also separately communicates with one party that wants code unit Y.
 
either way... I'm off to get noms
 
so, types that appear in APIs really
 
11:11 PM
@Mgetz hehe. sure. This is why my SSD is full.
 
Bastard. RR 'root cause analysis' guy has 2 weeks in China on exes. He says he has to lose weight b4 going 'cos expected food overload. I hate his guts.
 
@sehe sooo many jokes about what's really on your ssd... but I'm hungry... and away!
 
@LucDanton That's what implicit conversions are for. But more generally, that would merely imply say, templating a proper string type on the encoding, and not forcing the user to deal with all the encoding details all the time.
 
Convert what?
 
user1804599
@FredOverflow nice
 
11:12 PM
@Mgetz Linux too, yes.
 
user1804599
__v20 = {
    3: __v12,
    4: __v18,
}[__camefrom];
 
user1804599
hehe phi instructions
 
What is there to convert? API A wants char16_t you can feed it that. By passing in char16_t.
There is nothing to abstract over.
 
Actually I'm quite capable of finding out what the hell is on my SSD, tyvm
 
@райтфолд lol
 
11:14 PM
'Code unit' is not a bad word.
 
@LucDanton A), such APIs are fundamentally poorly designed, and B), if you have a string that expresses something more sane like Unicode codepoint, there is no reason why you could not convert at that one call site instead of infesting your whole program
 
oh my god, the fact that MSVC2015 has vsnprintf and snprintf breaks so many build scripts
 
Okay so I never actually used the word 'string', on purpose. It’s a term as loaded as 'character' in these matters.
 
fair enough.
 
As I’ve said, I’m okay with having specialized code unit vectors. I don’t think obsoleting them is that helpful. Should you supersede some of their uses with better tools, then so be it.
 
11:16 PM
I tried to compile one project and it had 3 dependencies that need upstream patches
 
I don't know what you mean by "obsolete" if not "Every use of them is better achieved by a better tool"
 
@PeterT I believe you (why? does it conflict with lib workarounds?)
 
yeah, they all just do a #define snprintf _snprintf and then you get a duplicate symbol error
guarded by #if defined(_MSC_VER)
 
what shall we say
 
which should now be #if defined(_MSC_VER) && _MSC_VER < 1900
 
11:19 PM
@Puppy I said 'some', not 'every'. DeadMG, I cast thee out of this innocent Puppy body!
 
and ffmpeg for example redefines its own snprintf implementation
 
I am not aware of any use that is not superseded.
 
More live exorcisms at 23
 
Any argument you have against a Unicode code unit you can turn into an argument against unsigned char, which is the ultimate (non-Unicode specific) code unit. You don’t want to deal with unsigned char most of the time, and there are better abstractions sitting on top of it (e.g. any object type really). Still, C++ does not need or want to obsolete unsigned char, nor any code unit—or vectors of them.
 
user1804599
OH MY GOD CONDITIONAL EXPRESSIONS WORK
 
user1804599
11:24 PM
The generated code is beautiful: gist.github.com/rightfold/b5597083b82f20ab6a03
 
> beautiful
 
well, I think that we really do want to obsolete char and it's variants.
 
user3010322
char is not the problem: it's its overuse that is.
 
it's overused because it's terrible by definition
 
You know what's terrible? Stupid computers and binary data representations
 
user1804599
11:30 PM
lol the JS optimiser NPEs
 
Best to stay away
 
user1804599
Now I can't see how it optimises my generated code.
 
it's overused by Standard.
 
user1804599
 
@sehe actually the best non-dirty response is VS inifinite install temp files, like those that consumed robots surface pro
I had 50gb of them myself
 
11:33 PM
@Puppy how so. I have a feeling that's just arguing lack of UNICODE awareness in the library, but from the vantage point of containers defined
@Mgetz you know. I did look into this. And a bare Win7 64 bit took 30Gib ~16 of which were in SxS
 
@FredOverflow I am curious; Which talk was that?
 
@sehe The most obvious is it's triple use as "codeunit for exceedingly-poorly-defined encoding", "some bytes" and "8-bit integer"
 
It doesn't matter whether viewed with ntfstools, windirstat or explorer
 
@sehe really? because powershell or cmd should show otherwise
 
@Mgetz which cmd?
@Mgetz and why "should" - do you have any definitive information about my system that I can't have?
 
11:36 PM
perhaps it depends on the system
I did not have Win7 x64 be over 20GB on first installation.
 
user1804599
puppy are you proud of me
 
no.
why would I be?
 
user3010322
I agree with @puppy here. unsigned char should have been the standard-defined way to be bytes, and unsigned char should have been the 8 bit unsigned integer, signed char the signed variant.
 
Because he's a talented young man
 
@sehe I'm looking for the link, basically the shell and all shell related file handling mishandles hard links because they just appear to be files
 
user3010322
11:38 PM
The only thing char should have been is a character type.
 
ntfs knows better though
 
@sehe My Win7 right now is 23.4GB and it's a years-old install.
winsxs 10.2GB
 
user3010322
I don't know if the standard did it like that, though, because it was the way C was designed or if it was because de-facto usage throughout the programming spheres.
 
@Puppy Well, SxS is currently 11GiB on my Win8 installation that I never use - so it has nothing whatsoever installed (outside OpenOffice)
 
@ThePhD Pretty much all of char's semantics are inherited from C, afaik
 
11:43 PM
worksforme on Closure Compiler (http://code.google.com/closure/compiler)
Version: 20130227
Built on: 2014/01/02 05:11
 
user1804599
@sehe 404
 
@райтфолд gosh that's just the banner of the cc binary... - output paste.ubuntu.com/10553446
 
user1804599
Nice.
 
user1804599
@sehe Yup, runs correctly under optimisations! :)
 
user1804599
It was generated from this beautiful module:
 
user1804599
11:46 PM
use std.io;

proc main(x: Boolean) {
    if x {
        io.writeln("Hello, world!");
    } else {
        io.writeln("Byebye, world!");
    };
}
 
sehe@desktop:/tmp$ node ./opt.js
Hello, world!
Byebye, world!
No idea what all the goog stuff in the intermediate is supposed to do :)
 
user1804599
Yup. main is called twice, once with true and once with false.
 
user1804599
@sehe It's the Closure module system.
 
Oh. That
> Sum n random numbers (for simulation purposes)
Beautiful. Never stop to think.
 
user1804599
Closure optimises the mess quite well though.
 
user1804599
11:53 PM
I wonder what the next version that isn't broken does.
 

« first day (1602 days earlier)      last day (3347 days later) »