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sbi
1:00 PM
@thecoshman This is him. He used to be known as "SpaceC0wb0y" (or some similar misspelling) and did hang out here for a few times. He lives in London now.
 
And I couldn't remember the syntax for update-alternatives to respond to you with another joek
 
ergh... still too expensive for my liking
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes hehe
 
@sbi ah, no idea who he is, but looks cudly enough :P
 
1:00 PM
All those people don't know the joy of listening to that song
 
@sbi Oh, he changed jobs?
 
sbi
@набиячлэвэлиь I was there back then, when it was released. We thought it was a good song for about a months or two. This is probably 30years ago, though, and it hasn't aged well.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Last year, IIRC. (For personal reasons, I might add.)
I thought I had told you.
 
Wow, glad git add .git doesn't work or, should I say, works as it should.
 
Universe destroyed
 
Ell
@Prismatic right, that is not harfbuzz' job
pango is for doing that, harfbuzz is just a shaping library
 
1:06 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes sounds like GCC's new numbering scheme
 
Ell
pango does line breaking I mean
 
@sbi it's be a very odd job that made you changed jobs :\
 
you know
 
Ell
and I don't think it's harfbuzz job to do bidi or script detection. usually fribidi is used for bidi and idk what for script detection
 
filesystems should work like zip archives
with hardware support from hdds
 
Ell
1:07 PM
...
 
so when you copy a folder you're getting a .zip file
 
Ell
zip archives have hardware support? :V
 
I don't think so
buy they should
 
@BartekBanachewicz do you mean hard disk compression?
 
@BartekBanachewicz would or should?
 
1:08 PM
@BartekBanachewicz What kind of support would the hardware provide?
 
@orlp maybe
 
Sounds like something totally doable at the filesystem driver level.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes uncompressed storage :P
 
@thecoshman Zactly.
 
Ell
@thecoshman heh
 
1:09 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes I guess it shouldn't slow down the operations
having the compression algorithm burned in the hw
 
@BartekBanachewicz I could see this working with a co-processor on the hard disk
 
That depends on how the filesystem driver lays things on the disk.
 
Ell
Is there a usecase for this?
 
@Ell no idea
 
1:10 PM
just some really efficient DSP that can only do a single compression algorithm
 
Ell
I don't think it's useful really
 
it's just a random thought
 
but I believe all this is more downsides than upsides
 
But do you want compression, or folders behaving as single files?
 
1:11 PM
I don't know what I want anymore
 
@fredoverflow the state of teaching programming
 
The former is already support in NTFS, ext4, ZFS, etc.
 
the biggest problem is that a hard disk doesn't have neat files that can extend
 
Aren't there a couple of loungers that teach programming?
 
@fredoverflow AskingTheRightQuestions(TM)
 
1:11 PM
@fredoverflow oh god that cancer
> The only rule to the above is that if your noun is simple, like say a number, then you don't need a class. But if it is more complex, like a bathroom, or a user, then it will need a class.
 
zzz
 
@orlp That's what a driver handles.
 
> like a bathroom, or a user
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes no, that's what the filesystem handles
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes what does that later mean?
 
1:12 PM
@orlp A filesystem driver :P
 
@orlp what is a filesystem, if not a driver
 
@thecoshman He mentioned folders acting as zip archives.
That can be done at the highest level.
 
@sehe a format of data stored on the hard drive
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes sure... but what does that mean?
 
class Craftsman extends Bathroom
 
1:13 PM
With no performance penalty (disk bandwidth is the bottleneck), unless you want extreme compression along with it.
 
and the associated behavior with that format
 
@orlp Extend how
 
Ell
yeah windows explorer even does that already with .zips
 
yes I know but, I was just testing it. The actual implementation in source is cleaner than this. , hey if you wont mind is there any way I can reach out to you (other than SO & livecoding.tv)? Thanks for helping out :) — DragonX 1 hour ago
 
Ell
in vista I think :P
 
1:14 PM
Did I mention clingy OP?
Not a word was a lie there.
 
There be dragons
 
@CatPlusPlus conceptually you can easily append/shrink a file
 
@BartekBanachewicz What about complex... numbers?
 
in the real world you have chunks, fragmentation, etc
 
I don't see how hardware can solve that in a way that software can't, though.
 
1:16 PM
I do mind. There is a reason why I'm on SO. Here the idea is that helping one person is helping others too. Also, there is not a personal dependence (if I'm not in the mood, someone else can help). There's no reason for me to go off-site. — sehe 1 min ago
 
Yes, and? Contiguity is just an optimisation
 
@fredoverflow You mean they're not flat? ;P
 
@orlp fuse filesystems do all kinds of application specific "virtual" filesystem logic (like tag-based paths)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes lol
 
@sehe yes, but I don't see why a filesystem would be considered part of the driver
the driver just knows how to talk to the hardware
you build a filesystem on top of that
 
1:17 PM
Part of what.
It is the driver.
 
@orlp there's nothing to "see" about that. It's definition thing. A filesystem is implemented by its driver.
@orlp So, there are different drivers, if that clears up your confusion.
 
@sehe To me that seems like a useless definition.
 
I think there's some SSD firmware that comes with filesystem knowledge for optimisation
 
Every piece of hardware needs it's own driver to talk to it (although some may share a common interface and thus a driver).
 
@orlp There's the block-device driver. And there's the fs driver (usually, a VFS drivers, which is another layer of indirection/abstraction)
 
1:19 PM
A filesystem doesn't know/care how the hard disk talks.
 
@orlp The most useful definitions are in line with reality
 
@orlp So what? That's not relevant.
 
So you have the driver for the hard disk, and then a kernel module to implement the file system.
 
@orlp Already answered (see retargeted reply)
@orlp gosh. Kernel modules are orthogonal
 
@orlp How does that view handle userspace drivers?
 
1:20 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's a thing?
 
Many drivers are implemented as modules.
3 mins ago, by sehe
@orlp fuse filesystems do all kinds of application specific "virtual" filesystem logic (like tag-based paths)
 
sbi
@thecoshman What's that mean in English?
 
Isn't a driver defined as some piece of software that talks to hardware?
 
god damn, why can't more people be like this guy. I didn't have to tell him, he just picked up on the convention I had for CI job names.
 
@orlp Nope. You can keep repeating it, and it won't become more realistic
 
1:21 PM
@sehe That's the definition I always assumed.
What is the correct definition then?
 
I have noticed this without the repeats
 
@sbi you stressed it was for personal reasons that he changed jobs, isn't that always the case? What sort of job would make you change for 'professional reasons'?
 
@orlp That'd just be a hardware driver.
 
@orlp There are abstraction layers all the way up.
 
sbi
@thecoshman If you work at a bad place?
 
1:22 PM
inb4 "driver" as "the one who drives"
 
Then what is a driver?
 
@sbi it's still 'personal' though isn't?
 
@orlp A piece of software
 
@orlp the man who get's the speeding tickets
 
It's a piece of software with a specific responsibility, really.
 
sbi
1:23 PM
@thecoshman Nope. If I am leaving because they know shit about programming and are doing it all wrong, it's for professional reasons.
 
Lounge<Pedantry>
 
Ell
I guess a driver is kind of arbitrary
 
Ell
or not well defined at least
 
@sehe Can you see my hesitation with accepting the term "filesystem driver", with the knowledge that I (falsely) thought "driver" meant "hardware driver"?
 
1:24 PM
@orlp I just see it as some software that interfaces with some (conceptual) device.
 
@Jefery Lounge<DontMakeAssumptions>
 
Same thing
Context matters
 
@sbi hmm... ¬_¬
 
can C++ and Windows live in peace afterall?
 
@thecoshman He means that the motivation was not job-related. "It's me, not you", he said to his employer.
 
1:25 PM
@orlp What difference does it make when I understand? I understood that long ago. I even quoted the message in which I explained to you what I thought was the source of your confusion. I was right. How can I ~not understand~ the confusion then?
 
@Dean WinAPI is already implemented in C++, so no concerns there
 
@sehe I said hesitation, not confusion.
 
Oh yeah. I can understand. I'm very confused why you want to know.
 
Driver is just a privileged process/module
 
I have learned so many things here. I never worried whether it was allowed.
 
1:27 PM
@CatPlusPlus That doesn't account for userspace drivers, though.
 
I just wanted some reassurance that it's not just me that thinks "filesytem hardware driver" makes no sense.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes They're implicitly privileged (they leverage privilege of the kernel counterparts)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes They use privileged API so
Kinda same thing
 
@orlp That's a different question. It's likely not just you, but I doubt many programmers keep the narrow view very long
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes oooh
 
1:28 PM
(My mom will have the same definition, and that will be fine for her)
 
PostScript drivers are a thing.
Just let that sink in.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes shouldn't we throw it a rope, rather than let it drown?
 
Very good examples. After this discussion we should totally check the related WP articles
And update it :)
 
I mean driver doesn't have to be privileged but at that point it's just some daemon/service/whatever and we don't call all of those drivers
 
Yeah. The fuzziness is what made me keep it really open ("It's a piece of software with a specific responsibility")
I wasn't too happy with it, but it does allow for the various gray areas, that are in fact called drivers often
 
1:30 PM
Can we be more specific?
 
Ell
I want to try a microkernel
 
And similar bits are often not called drivers somewhere else
 
Is that responsibility always to provide an abstraction?
 
@orlp No.
 
@sehe I think the interfacing bit is the important aspect.
 
1:30 PM
@orlp The samples are specific
 
There's also different kinds of privilege, userspace drivers don't run in ring 0 but probably run with all local privileges etc
@Ell Me too
Well, write one
Some day
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes 'The responsibility thing makes it an interface. Because, if no one else can infringe on the responsibility, then either the component is perfectly isolated /or/ it is the de-facto gateway/interface
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes He doesn't, it can't be any more specific.
 
PostScript drivers are interfaces for a PostScript interpreter. Usually those interpreters are implemented in hardware, but no need. How can you know the thing on the other side of the network connection is really a printer?
 
Or a dog
 
1:32 PM
isn't it rather easy to write a kernal if you just want to make it work for you?
 
you can never know
 
Have you guys thought about giving stars to more worthy things: currently, cocks, your mum jokes and some retarded video gets easy stars, it reflects really bad on every regular (I am asking this because I care) ... but you can star all Bartek related topics, that's just fine ...
 
I also feel like bringing this up again, just because.
lp0 on fire (aka Printer on Fire) is a semi-obsolete error message generated on some Unix and Unix-like computer operating systems in response to certain types of printer errors. lp0 is the Unix device handle for the first line printer, but the error can be displayed for any printer attached to a Unix/Linux system. The message does not reliably indicate whether the printer in question is actually aflame. == History == The "on fire" message probably originated in the late 1950s, when high speed computerized printing was still a somewhat experimental field. The first documented fire-starting printer...
 
sbi
> On the Internet, nobody knows you're a printer.
 
@orlp I think so too. Mmm. There are many ingredients that are usually there, but not all of them are strictly required. Etc.
 
1:33 PM
"The first documented fire-starting printer" never fails to crack me up.
 
Ell
man why did I agree to going out tonight
 
So it's more of "just a software component", but usually we call them drivers only if they have a combination of X, Y, Z ...
 
@sehe Let's say I have a cron job that keeps a server alive by doing a ping every hour.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes You borrowed it in Nonius
 
@Ell minimum of 4 drinks per person, no sharing
 
1:34 PM
@sehe :)
 
That's obviously not a driver, but it fits your definition of a software component with a single responsibility.
 
@Ell Why?
 
printer is a good fire starter: because of the ease of accessing papers
 
@orlp No it doesn't.
3 mins ago, by sehe
@R.MartinhoFernandes 'The responsibility thing makes it an interface. Because, if no one else can infringe on the responsibility, then either the component is perfectly isolated /or/ it is the de-facto gateway/interface
 
Ell
@Jefery I don't know why :(
I dont' want to go really
 
1:34 PM
I really wouldn't introduce anything other than actual privileges into the definition
 
1 min ago, by thecoshman
@Ell minimum of 4 drinks per person, no sharing
 
@sehe "no one else can infringe on the responsibility" is not part of your definition
 
@CatPlusPlus I personally don't think privileges are the key bit. They're frequently there, but not always
 
Ell
it doesn't work for me :V
 
1:35 PM
@orlp It's what I meant.
 
Ven
yo
 
"A piece of software exclusively responsible for something specific."
 
Better
 
defining driver?
 
Responsibility is rarely shared, IRL. Especially software design
 
1:37 PM
@sehe well even if it isn't shared doesn't mean it's exclusive
 
it's like defining 'server' isn't it?
 
@Ell It's Friday night, I used to go out every Friday night because I feel extra lonely on a Friday night (when I was living by myself). Nowadays I don't feel the need because I always hang around with too many people.
 
or 'cloud'
 
@thecoshman That's a piece of software exclusively responsible for defining.
 
@orlp I know. Don't keep rehashing. It's noise
 
1:37 PM
E.g. I might be responsible for cleaning the toilet, that doesn't mean that other people can not clean the toilet.
 
51 secs ago, by sehe
Better
@orlp Right. Never lived in a dorm
 
@thecoshman Gee fuck wikipedia's "cloud computing" page ranks higher than "cloud" on Google for the query "cloud".
 
slow things are slow
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes why do you search for butts on google?
use bing
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I think people have a better understanding of clouds than they do cloud computing
 
1:39 PM
bing, not tor?
 
@thecoshman Tempted to test that thesis.
 
@chmod666telkitty tor is not a search engine?
 
Removed "actually" for full alliterative power.
 
but it hides the fact that you have searched for butts
 
@chmod666telkitty the joke was cloud -> butt
 
1:40 PM
Butt computing is serious business
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I think it will hold out.
 
IEquatable<T> is annoying wtf at not splitting it up in IEquatable<T>and IHashable<T>
 
@JohanLarsson in Java?
 
1:42 PM
C# went with universal hashability
 
public override int GetHashCode()
{
    return 0; // returning same to force equals call
}
 
user1804599
Freenode is still borked. :v
 
Gonna try ^, should wortk
 
well, might be same argument, in Java, you have to be hashable if you are equatable
 
C# is #C backwards
 
user1804599
1:43 PM
We are again experiencing connectivity problems to some servers due to DDoS attacks. Please bear with us while we ride it out.
 
Just make it properly hashable
 
@Elyse nope
 
user1804599
Ah, that explains.
 
@CatPlusPlus nontrivial in this case, hakking
 
You're asking for trouble if your type is comparable but not hashable properly
 
1:44 PM
@JohanLarsson It's annoying but it doesn't make sense for them to not be together.
 
I think it makes some sense
 
I'd argue it's broken (see also: C++)
 
Consumers could say that they need both
 
Do DDoS hackers make money out of launching DDoS attacks against websites? Seems to be waste of efforts if they don't ...
 
@CatPlusPlus aren't those orthogonal
 
1:45 PM
@CatPlusPlus internal thing: private struct StringAndIndex : IEquatable<StringAndIndex>
 
@chmod666telkitty if you ever give money to DDoS attackers you're beyond stupid
 
trying to avoid allocations
 
C# has GetHashCode for everything, and there's nothing stopping you from using it in context where it needs to hash
 
@orlp you idiot, who do you think are talking to?
 
idk, never seen a case where generated thing wouldn't be enough
 
1:47 PM
this is what I'm playing with.
 
@JohanLarsson please do not link pictures of your genitals
 
why?
Maybe it explodes if I have only one element in a dictionary
 
@JohanLarsson the temperature density ("hotness") of this room will raise too high and spontaneously form a black hole
 
But everyone here is pedant perfect and will survive such an event.
 
@JohanLarsson Shouldn't you just call Equals(obj as T) and have Equals(T) handle nulls?
 
1:50 PM
That is what R# henerated, I usually don't spend much time thinking about it
 
The public bool Equals(StringAndIndex other)is the only relevant code, the rest is noise
 
I know, but shouldn't it return false when called with null instead of blowing up?
Oh, value type.
Missed that.
 
@VillasV Ouch. Well. The good news is you'll waste far fewer hours on X3. Although the discoverability is slightly worse in some areas. I make it a point to heal those gaps on Stack Overflow.
 
Now I see why R# generated it that way.
 
1:52 PM
Nov 20 at 1:01, by sehe
@JerryCoffin They are already better. If only for the fact that I reached warp speed with less than 12 hours of frustration.
@VillasV Note ^ x3 is not free of frustration
 
@Ell Then don't
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I don't think I have seen R# dumb equality yet
 
Nah, it's perfect. Doesn't it generate the hash for you as well, though?
 
@JohanLarsson I remember seeing something dumb in R# (and I was really surprised). Something with refactoring nested conditionals
(usually when R# does something unexpected there, it just means you missed a scenario and R# points that out, but in that case I replayed several times to witness it actually did something wrong.)
That was ~3+ years ago though
@R.MartinhoFernandes It certainly can
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes yep but wasn't a fit in this case since I want to hash a substring
In this rare case
 
1:55 PM
A simple implementation would be to copy the substring to an array and delegate call GetHashCode() to that.
Should do to get shit working.
But I'd replace it with something cheaper later.
 
yes but I'm microoptimizing, it is that allocation I'm trying to get away from
 
I have that now more or less
 
Take R#'s implementation for a class with a few members, and loopify that?
All the equality members in .NET are garbage :(
 
That's basically FNVe I think
 
1:57 PM
Yeah, not very nice
 
Types don't know # <3
Even C++ got this wrong :'(
 
user1804599
if (c) {
    A
    if (d) {
        B
    } else {
        X
    }
} else {
    X
}
 
beautiful :)
 
user1804599
I don't know how to refactor the duplication of X away.
 
user1804599
I tend to use gotos for this kind of stuff.
 
1:59 PM
EW!
@Elyse break out the conditions.
 
user1804599
So the first else gotos the second else.
 
user1804599
@sehe What do you mean?
 
@Elyse name your conditions so we can respond
 
call a method to handle x?
 

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