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5:00 PM
@CatPlusPlus Oh wait, none of the 3 conditions is true for NaN :)
 
@GregorMcGregor make it halfway between here and tony's
 
@GregorMcGregor hmmmm
 
Then we can mate and have a baby and it would become the youngest GPU MVP
 
user1804599
@fredoverflow a and b may be NaN.
 
WAIT
 
5:00 PM
Lets go to Scotland
 
@TonyTheLion That's probably somewhere in middle east
 
I wanna visit Scotland
 
@Mr.kbok Hmmm...let's see. Left bank, but not Latin quarter, right? I've got already got it narrowed down to no more than...1.1 million people.
 
Scotland seems nice
 
Mountains <3
 
5:00 PM
@TonyTheLion We could also visit Rockstar North's headquarters and teach them C++.
 
@Elyse Batman!
 
@ElimGarak lol
 
user1804599
@GregorMcGregor Your mother is like Scotland: seems nice.
 
@JerryCoffin why left bank? did I mention it?
 
Fuck, I left a jacket at work today... and we are moving to a new office this weekend.
 
5:01 PM
@Mr.kbok Are there really civilized people in the middle of the channel?
 
user1804599
@fredoverflow BatNaN
 
Does this qualify as doing a Robot?
 
I can get us in Rockstar San Diego for a tour, but that's in... San Diego.
 
@Mr.kbok Not to my knowledge--I was just guessing there (though now you seem to have pretty much confirmed it).
 
user1804599
Scottland
 
5:01 PM
@Griwes Are you Robot?
 
Or is this too minor for that?
 
@ElimGarak I wanna go San Diego.
 
We had a Bartek eruption earlier
 
I hope someone took care of it... I'm not going to spend an hour now to go and try to fetch it (...hoping no-one else from my office took it with them).
 
That sounds wrong
 
5:02 PM
@ScottW I felt the same all day
 
@ElimGarak I had a lot of new in my code, but then I switched from Java to Kotlin which replaces new Foo() with just Foo().
 
@TonyTheLion everyday
 
@ElimGarak If you do, I'll join the tour...
 
@JerryCoffin Wait, aren't you somewhere inland?
 
@GregorMcGregor We are one
 
user1804599
5:03 PM
@fredoverflow How do you pass type arguments in Kotlin?
 
I hope it won't be raining too bad in the morning on Monday... and it's supposed not to rain during the weekend...
I might survive.
 
@JerryCoffin it's a less than 1 million because the left bank is quite smaller (see the map). Also I mentioned earlier that I lived in the brittanic part of the city
 
@Elyse angle brackets, just like Java
Kotlin has no XML literals ;)
 
user1804599
How does it distinguish between T<U>(x) as a constructor call and as two comparisons?
 
Magic
 
5:04 PM
Probably by knowing that T is a type?
 
user1804599
Ugh, context-sensitive grammars.
 
@ScottW <3
 
@ElimGarak Inland? Well, I'm not within walking distance of the ocean, if that's what you mean. But in San Diego nonetheless (in case you want something more precise: east of the 5, but west of the 15).
 
comparison is \less and \more
 
@Elyse context
 
5:04 PM
@Elyse I honestly don't know, I was just guessing.
 
user1804599
Rust does it funnily.
 
@Mr.kbok I'll take your word for it (but then again, I'm not entirely sure where the brittanic part of the city would be.
 
equality is **equals**[x# y]
 
It's very important how the language is implemented
 
user1804599
In Rust T<U>(x) is two comparisons whereas T::<U>(x) is a call with type arguments.
 
5:05 PM
@JerryCoffin I know. I leave it for you do find out, if you're in the mood.
 
oh well, its been nice talking here (I suppose). I should rest now.
 
@JerryCoffin Oh, wow. For some reason, I thought you were in Colorado.
 
never understood the hate against context sensitive languages
 
butthurt
 
@ElimGarak I used to be (but I've been here for ~1.5 years now).
 
5:07 PM
@TonyTheLion Even Jerry is in San Diego.
 
@Mr.kbok Is it a good place to live? Seems very expensive
I remember having lunch there for 26 euros
 
For some reason, I always thought San Diego, Los Angeles and San Francisco were more closely packed.
 
HELLO DO YOU WANT A BOILED EGG THAT WILL BE 4.10 € THANKS
welcome to Paris
 
Is there a way to hint the compiler that a certain branch is likely to be taken? (Without resorting to non-portable stuff like __builtin_expect?)
One of coworkers is convinced you should always put the hot code in the if branch.
 
5:08 PM
@StackedCrooked No and no
 
So the codebase is full of "arrow" shapes.
 
@GregorMcGregor Basically, it comes down to Fortran. When it was invented, most grammar theory hadn't been developed yet, and it turned out to be nearly unparseable. That prompted a lot of study, and a backlash (from which we've still only partially recovered) that emphasized ease of parsing.
 
Your colleagues are wrong
 
user1804599
@fredoverflow nice post JavaSuck
 
@ElimGarak Takes 8 hours to drive LA - San Fran and 2 hours from LA to San Diego
 
5:09 PM
@GregorMcGregor It's reasonable, but it's still Paris
apt is €30 sq meter
 
@GregorMcGregor I know. But this is a difficult guy.
 
@TonyTheLion I remember you were in LA in 2012, right?
 
@ElimGarak yes
 
@StackedCrooked Well it's very simple, make a sample, invert the branches, be amazed at how the generated code is identical, the end
Write for clarity not for branches
Besides the compiler is smarter than you
 
@GregorMcGregor It's useless. I tried that before. People don't listen. They don't trust the codegen either. It's like religion.
 
5:11 PM
Also in hot path if your branches have a regular pattern the CPU will predict it correctly
 
IME just assign those guys to projects that aren't very important
 
So branch hints are useless really
 
I have the impression that GCC alternates the branches. So all combinations are equally worse/good.
 
Even BOOST_LIKELY translates to nothing at all
because it's pointless
What really matters is branch predictability :w
 
how can your face look like a w are you really that ugly
 
5:13 PM
lol
 
user1804599
clang generates different code when branch hints are given.
 
@GregorMcGregor Yeah, but if the compiler knows the likely paths it can put them together so all the hot code is laid out contiguously. AFAIK the only two ways to achieve this are __builtin_expect and guided optimization. I don't like the former and the latter triggers ICE on our codebase...
 
user1804599
It makes the cold code the jump target, and the hot code the not-jump target.
 
PGO is a good thing indeed
 
5:13 PM
@StackedCrooked Probably need to show him generated code then. They're right though: some processors support static branch prediction, but if you're targeting x86 there is no such thing.
 
user1804599
Because of cache locality.
 
:&
 
@Mr.kbok Maybe he's referring to the vim command?
 
Use PGO
 
I've also noticed that assertions are translated to a forward jump to the very end of the function.
 
5:14 PM
@StackedCrooked Laying out hot code contiguously isn't necessarily the best way either though.
@GregorMcGregor He's already said he can't.
 
@JerryCoffin Why not?
 
I'm going now
bye guys
 
make sure to post your face in the lounge
 
I'm off to bed, have a good weekend everyone
 
5:15 PM
you too
 
night
 
Connect & cut
 
good lord, cppcon vids are still pouring in
 
@StackedCrooked Because you're typically dealing with an N-way set associative cache. It can cache code that's scattered throughout memory just as well as code that's contiguous.
 
@GregorMcGregor Funny thing I noticed a few weeks ago: boost::lockfree uses inline functions named likely()/unlikely() that wrap __builtin_expect(...). Of course this collides with macros from other libraries.
@JerryCoffin Yeah I suppose.
I have to admit that I never encountered a situation where branch prediction caused performance problems. @GMan however, did :)
 
Usually there are much bigger bottlenecks in the system like allocations and context switches. Or IO. Or nested loops with O2 complexity.. (I'm ashamed.)
 
5 mins ago, by fredoverflow
@Mr.kbok Maybe he's referring to the vim command?
user image
2
(Yes, I just made this.)
 
I would star it, but I don't want to support Star Citizen in any way or form.
 
@ScottW yes
 
@StackedCrooked Use a macro that defaults to nothing. Under GCC define it to ` __builtin_expect`.
 
5:21 PM
So, when will the Lounge have official T-shirts?
 
What would it say on them?
 
@ElimGarak T-shirts are there for other people to see. Nobody cares if you wear a Lounge shirt while sitting in front of your computer, chatting in the Lounge.
 
"I'm a nerd, I spend 24hrs a day in Lounge<C++>, please love me"
 
Also, what are you guys up to on this wonderful Friday evening? Jk, it's rainy and shit.
 
fapping
 
5:22 PM
@ElimGarak Thinking about the cost/benefit ratio of static analysis over dynamic checks.
 
Static analysis all the way, bby.
 
Also, eating potatoes.
 
In chips form?
 
No, cooked. With Brussels sprouts.
 
I've just prepared myself for a game night.
 
5:24 PM
I chopped the potatoes in half in all three dimensions. Octree potatoes anyone?
@ElimGarak Which game?
 
GTA V with a couple of buddies.
Going to be hardcore. Or at least, nerdy. (online, duh :P)
 
Did the buddies come with the game, or were they an additional download?
 
@ElimGarak and the other computers are for multi-tasking while playing? :D
 
What, you guys are energy efficient? I leave everything on :/
That laptop down there is borken (OS got stupid)
 
@ElimGarak I've got a laptop that hasn't been turned off in 3 years - surprised it hasn't died yet
 
5:27 PM
@Mysticial Yeah. We actually have that.
 
@JonClements It'll be fine. Sometimes I feel they would fall apart sooner if I constantly turned them on/off.
 
> In general, you should prefer to use actual profile feedback for this (-fprofile-arcs), as programmers are notoriously bad at predicting how their programs actually perform.
I find that hard to believe.
How can the programmer be clueless about the branches in his program.
 
Also, I'm the best GTAO pilot ever. Just not sure how I can prove it. If only I could rope the Lounge to play with me sometimes. Heists are fun.
 
@StackedCrooked could it be not really the explicit branches in the logic, but more the "branches" that the compiler will use?
 
Hm, I don't understand what you mean by that..
 
5:31 PM
@StackedCrooked The average programmer is clueless about a lot of things.
 
Well, if I call a function - then I know where that fits in with my logic/design of the program. But that function may then go off call others, have loop intensive things, etc... etc...
So while "my logic" might be A->B->C - all of those can be doing a lot of stuff I'm not aware of (and ideally shouldn't have to look in to)
 
@JerryCoffin What motivated your move to San Diego? You changed jobs? IIRC, you were reverse engineering software for patent claims and such?
 
@JohanLarsson Eric Lippert -- Sharp Regrets: Top 10 Worst C# Features, should be an interesting read
> When I was on the C# design team, several times a year we would have "meet the team" events at conferences, where we would take questions from C# enthusiasts. Probably the most common question we consistently got was "Are there any language design decisions that you now regret?" and my answer is "Good heavens, yes!"
 
Last week I went to a DPDK conference. There was a talk named "The 7 deadly sins of packet processing". The first item was on branches. The chief intel guy architect talked about how branches are aligned on 16-byte boundaries and if you function starts with a branch + early return or ends with a return statement containing a branch then that's very bad. Didn't really understand all of that.
 
@ElimGarak Yup--I'm now doing an honest job, actually writing software and designing (or at least helping to design) hardware.
 
5:36 PM
@fredoverflow Btw., I'll be back in Hamburg for a month in December. Would you want to meet up?
 
@Columbo Do you drink beer and/or play Skat?
 
@fredoverflow I love beer. I'll learn how to play Skat until then :D
 
user1804599
@fredoverflow Meh, most are about syntax.
 
An interesting insight was the effect of inlining on branches. non-inline code called form different places will be less predictable. If you inline it then each caller will have it's own (more predictable) copy of the branch code.
 
@Columbo When exactly in December? Maybe there are some nerd events we could visit, dunno :)
 
5:38 PM
@fredoverflow About 8th Dec until 9th Jan
 
Where in Hamburg will you be staying, if I may ask?
Also, what human languages do you speak?
 
@fredoverflow My parents house, I guess.
@fredoverflow Ich bin deutsch, wusstest du das nicht?
 
Ich kann mir sowas nicht merken :)
 
Nähere Details können wir zu gegebener Zeit über Slack klären, wenn du möchtest.
 
They said these insights were crucial to if you want be able to process hundreds of million packets per second. (They went from 20Mpps to ~300Mpps in a few years.)
 
5:40 PM
Is it just me, or does the question not match the title?
-19
Q: which is the best public key encryption algorithm?

Amit CJava code for RSA 2048 bit key length???

 
@Columbo Was ist Slack?
 
@fredoverflow Das beschreibt die Seite selbst ziemlich treffend: slack.com
@fredoverflow Das Treffen am 15ten sieht doch gut aus
 
lol C++ Thema am 20.10. ist JavaX?
 
@fredoverflow Gebürtiger Hamburger. In meinem Jahrgang sind übrigens kurioserweise noch zwei weitere Hamburger, ein Geschichtsstudent und ein Physikstudent
 
Studierst Du Informatik?
> Yes that's right! We will improve Java for you. Just tell us what you need. We want the whole world to switch from Java to JavaX! JavaX is just better in every way - and wildly more productive. (Or time-saving if you want to see it that way).
> It's a mathematical fact: A language that is closer to you - closer to the way you actually think - is naturally more productive than a totally fixed language like Java. (Java has to fit everyone's needs, so it is naturally very restricted in the number of constructs. JavaX can adapt to you. Just choose a translator at the top of your program.)
 
5:45 PM
@Mysticial aww... I wanted to downvote it
too late
 
@fredoverflow ty ty
 
So, we've had vertex buffers for decades now, an API semi-specialized structure containing data intended for input assembly. As you might imagine, vertex buffers alone are not enough for processing, so one might need more data inside... Usually read only / constant buffers, as they're known. You'd usually have an API specifically to set them... But, Apple just has general purpose blob buffers...

So, *every buffer* in Metal associated with the vertex transforming portion of the pipeline (vertex function or shader) is called a vertex buffer in its nomenclature, as `setVertexBuffer`. Everywhe
 
@ScottW Never heard of it before, either. Apparently some hobby student project to improve upon Java.
 
@fredoverflow the libraries are probably worse than the language
 
@ElimGarak Blobs are love, blobs are life!
 
5:48 PM
would be nice with code transoformations as a way to undo language features
code > ast > new code
Should be a nice fit for roslyn
 
@JohanLarsson Kotlin does that when it reaches a new milestone. It's pretty neat.
 
I read somewhere that go has used it also
 
Yeah, that rings a bell.
 
Basically, under Metal conditions, vertex shader here is basically a 1D compute kernel which provides you with a vertex ID to manipulate said blobs with parametrization directly specified in code. But it still offers you to actually stage in vertex-per-vertex, in order to abstract it for schmucks.
 
Xeo
Take all the time you need to process what Trump just said. http://t.co/u2oG8zHFTo
lolz
 
5:50 PM
@Xeo Repost <3
 
Xeo
aww
:'(
 
Has all these amazing nuggets... Doesn't have geometry shaders. I mean, what the fuck, Apple.
You guys might know this one if you watched Halt & Catch Fire. It's pretty fancy.
Damn, Scott. Come to the shore!
 
@JohanLarsson Have you seen the A* interview?
 
We've got Nooble on the east coast, Jerry on the west coast... And Mysticial and you kinda middling. :P
Oh, btw, where is @Nooble?
 
@ElimGarak deep within yo' head
 
6:02 PM
@ScottW Yes, but we haven't seen him in the Lounge. Is he grounded?
 
user406009
He's probably in school right now.
 
He's UTC-4
 
user406009
And schools tend to have a negative view of browsing chat rooms.
 
@AnalPhabet ITT weird UNICODE encodings
 
if (x) {
    hot_code(); }
else {
    // hint to the compiler that this branch is unlikely :D
    try { throw 1; } catch (int) { cold_code(); }

}
 
6:04 PM
@sehe huh
 
user406009
@StackedCrooked Don't we have intrinsics for this sort of thing?
 
hint: eggs, I din't spawn from them
puns: I make them bad
@StackedCrooked lol
 
@Lalaland GCC has stuff like __builtin_expect
 
@Lalaland yes
I've seen if(unlikely(condition)) { } which is quite elegant
 
@Lalaland So he was here yesterday?
I'm kinda blind these days, shiet.
 
user406009
6:06 PM
@ElimGarak Schools tend to have alternating class schedules.
 
user406009
Tuesday, Thursday one schedule, Monday, Wednesday, Friday another.
 
user406009
Don't worry. You'll be able to corrupt him with your evil DirectX ways later tonight.
 
@fredoverflow don't think so, link?
 
And one more data point confirming my earlier conjecture
 
6:18 PM
@sehe bool unlikely(bool) { return (rand()%100) < 50; } ?
 
nope. Also, wtf condition is that
 
@melak47 isnt unlikely a compiler hint for the branch predictor?
 
@Borgleader not after you define this, I guess :p
 
CANT STOP WATCHING THIS http://t.co/8TdCbwWWrH
Hilarious in a strange way
 
@sehe Probably done so he'll fit in the car door.
 
6:23 PM
Oh forgot @Fred lives in Hamburg! Was there two weeks ago with my girlfriend. We could have met. Damn.
 
And you could have eaten hamburgers.
 
I think he picked strange examples, did not mention reftypes default nullable
@fredoverflow nice fanboiing in the beginning luv it :)
think I have seen it, remember the background
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Your name is still italic!
Praise be!
 
why wouldn't it be?
 
6:38 PM
@JohanLarsson Lounge drama earlier today
 
who were involved?
 
@EtiennedeMartel well duh :)
 
don't feel like reading transcript
 
@JohanLarsson tl;dr Bartek
 
user406009
Is Bartek banned now or something?
 
6:40 PM
no
 
I bought shadow of mordor
hope it's good
 
@TonyTheLion is it worth reading?
 
@JohanLarsson if you enjoy reading lounge drama, yes, otherwise no
 
bartek is special drama
 
@Lalaland He's starting Bar<Haskell> because Robot hurt his feelings.
 
user406009
6:45 PM
Wouldn't that be Bar Haskell?
 
user406009
(If I remember the syntax for Haskell generics correctly.)
 
@Lalaland But <> represents sour grapes.
 
Note that I haven't implemented unary + and - yet :-D
 
user406009
Isn't it impossible to determine if all cases are handled in the general case?
 
6:49 PM
Well, the static analysis won't try to understand the conditions of multiple if statements in sequence.
 
did bartek leave?
sigh
 
user406009
@fredoverflow Also, your static analysis is actually correct in this case.
 
user406009
compareBad doesn't work for NaN.
 
@Lalaland welll....NaN != NaN, so returning true for compare(NaN, NaN) is sort of bad :p
 
user406009
Well, you have to return something.
 
user406009
6:52 PM
You could always just say screw it and return -2.
 
-NaN :D
 
Not a Good Idea
 
user406009
Anyways, if I ever write a programming language, NaN will have total ordering.
 
user406009
NaN = NaN.
 
user406009
NaN < everything
 
6:55 PM
Muh float perfomrance
 
Ugh, broken NaN
 
- Install MonoGame
- Create Empty Project
- Press F5
- DLL Not found
wtf seriously
 
user1804599
@fredoverflow change "does" to "may".
 
Not NuGet, broken
 
6:58 PM
MG comes with tools and template so I'm not sure how that would work with nuget
 

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