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2:01 PM
Can't miss an opportunity to say bad things about VS.
 
Yeah, SE has fucked up their servers again, haven't they. Such incompetence.
A few days ago the entire network broke down because they pushed an untested Python script with a syntax error, FFS.
 
Web 2.0: production = testing.
 
mm
I've seen a pattern of this behaviour through reports on Meta, too. Lots of code changes simply not being tested.
Seems to be a common pattern on sites funded by advertising (Facebook in particular); I guess who cares if service to users is not great, since the users aren't the customers, right?
I find it to be a lazy and dishonest way of running a service, though.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit it's kinda gone downhill since Atwood left
 
@Mgetz Yes it has. One example:
I hate to say it but you clearly have not noticed (or are choosing to ignore) the direction that StackOverflow owners want the site to move in. They've even said they "want StackOverflow to be a site where people learn how to code", as well as be a repository for every code-related problem ever. It hasn't been a place for "answering questions from professionals and enthusiasts" for years. — TylerH 17 hours ago
 
2:05 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit And yet we're still here instead of lurking in a c++ channel on freenode
 
@Mgetz Actually I'm lurking in a C++ channel on Freenode ;)
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I'm not but only because my build of hexchat is unstable at the moment
 
@Mgetz I like the right-aligned nicks
like here
worth noting that the Linux version doesn't seem to look half as good
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit so do I, as for UI... I'm not sure if I'll stick with GTK
hexchat uses gtk 1.0
 
btw fyi
@StackStatus Seems to be a Core1 issue, now you mention it http://pastebin.com/qSGzyPQ2 Red herring as only SE affected from this end
shit
guys
look at Bartek's twitter account :/
 
2:17 PM
Yes?
 
There's a bunch of physicists on there, yes.
 
Got you to look. Joke over
New joke time
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I think the ticker is the best there.... XD
 
@Puppy FWIW, I got my first job by applying to a position I wasn't really qualified for. They still invited me for an interview, and after that they invited me for an interview with another department, and there they offered me a position.
 
@Mgetz Yes, that's the joke
@R.MartinhoFernandes And that's how you became a robot.
 
2:23 PM
I don't get it.
Also, ow, my wrists really hurt now. Taking a break.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit you can't show us anything better than those photos from The Fappening
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, I think Cat had it right that the smarter choice is just to send them back my CV and then if their position requires 20 years experience of COBOL that's their problem.
 
I've heard some of the Fappening's stuff featured pictures from someone who was a minor at the time the photos were taken.
 
wtf is The Fappening
10
 
2:31 PM
Which means, if you're downloading the whole package, you're technically also getting child porn.
@Puppy Right, forgot about how strong your filter bubble is.
 
it's not really a term I want to Google.
 
You know those actresses' nude pictures that got leaked out of iCloud?
 
yep
 
Well, the event is called "the Fappening" by Reddit.
Because of course it is.
 
2:33 PM
oh right.
when you were sarcastic about my "filter bubble", I thought that meant that "the fappening" was a thing in reasonable circles instead of Reddit.
 
@EtiennedeMartel so what?
 
@Abyx Right, you're Russian.
You guys love child porn.
 
@EtiennedeMartel why?
 
A lot of child porn goes through botnets operated by Russians.
 
2:39 PM
Anyway. That was a joke.
 
@Abyx they weren't that good
@Puppy loooooooool
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit You can't honestly be surprised right now.
 
> That's a lot of cameras
 
@EtiennedeMartel nopes
 
Xeo
the fuck. speedtest says my internet is fine, but websites take an awfully long time to load
 
Ell
2:43 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Depends how child.
I don't know if I can make jokes about this or not
 
@Ell You can't. Stop this right now.
Wherever you thought you were going, it's shit.
 
Ell
@EtiennedeMartel Good idea I think
 
wooopsie
had a bug where when you tried to copy a type, it instead moved it.
 
Ell
Can you instantiate types at runtime in wide?
 
That's a feature
 
Ell
2:46 PM
I mean
Make new types
Idk what I mean. Nvm
 
not unless you bring the Wide compiler with you.
just like any other language.
 
Ell
Or a virtual machine right
 
that pretty much just brings the compiler with you because it's shipped with the VM.
Java and C# cannot instantiate types at run-time without bringing the compiler with them; it's just shipped as part of the VM instead of needing to be linked in, but the principle is the same.
> Set Next Statement is a real power tool. If you're debugging, and you've accidentally (or not so accidentally) stepped past the point where something interesting happens, you can sometimes "unwind" execution. What this really means is that, maintaining the current state of the world, you can tell Visual Studio to go back and start executing from a previous instruction.
wait what.
I didn't realize VS could go backwards.
 
Not the same.
"Set Next Statement" is a blunt IP = x
GDB does have reverse debugging which is more than merely making an artificial jump.
 
Xeo
> maintaining the current state of the world
yeah fuck you
 
Ell
2:50 PM
GDB reverse debugging is really cool
 
Xeo
because that's really useful...
 
@Puppy they can without the compiler but it's very painful as you have to manually construct the types with reflection.
 
eh, well, you can also modify the value of variables with the debugger, so as long as it's managable to roll back your locals, you could probably still make it work.
 
@Puppy You can emit IL directly.
@Puppy Yeah, but that makes it totally not a "power tool".
Just a fucking hammer.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Which is exactly the same principle, except now you wrote the source -> IL part yourself, and the IL -> execution part is shipped for you in the VM.
emitting IL doesn't change the fact that it only works because the IL -> execution part is shipped for you in the VM.
 
2:52 PM
The IL -> execution part is shipped in C++ programs as well.
Replace IL with whatever machine code you want.
 
@Xeo I think the internet is broken today.
39 mins ago, by Lightness Races in Orbit
@StackStatus Seems to be a Core1 issue, now you mention it http://pastebin.com/qSGzyPQ2 Red herring as only SE affected from this end
 
You produce executable code directly. No need to compile anything.
 
true, but if you emit machine code directly, then you've still brought the compiler with you, it's just that now you also wrote the compiler yourself instead of bringing an existing one.
let's back up a second, because I'm starting to get this a little loose in my head.
 
Er, no, you're still missing the part where in the JVM and the CLR the types are defined in executable code.
 
Puppy you've always been loose in the head
 
Xeo
2:55 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit yeah. I was also having trouble connecting to chat from work earlier
(and no, that's not my employer tinkering with the connection. I hope.)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Right, but they still have a subcomponent that maps that executable code to machine code (or interprets it or whatever).
 
@Puppy You mean an execution environment, like say, a CPU?
JITting is not necessary for this to work.
It's an implementation detail.
 
right, but the same principle applies for interpretation, since you just have to bring an interpreter instead of a JIT.
 
Which has the same job as a CPU.
 
right, but you still have to provide it or have it provided for you by another program; it's not a basic part of the environment.
 
2:58 PM
By contrast, C++ provides no functionality that would make this work even in an interpreter.
@Puppy Oh, I see, the programs run in vacuum.
 
what, adding new types at run-time?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes They don't run in a vaccuum. But the CPU does not have the ability to interpret your favourite source language. You have to provide or have provided for you by a VM or whatever a translating component, if you want to translate it at run-time.
 
From the point of view of a C# program you can just put bytes into a buffer and have them run.
The C++ abstract machine has no such functionality. It can only execute the code that was provided as part of the program.
@Puppy You don't need a source language. You can just emit machine code directly.
 
right, but that's just your program performing the same job as a translator would.
 
3:02 PM
The language includes library calls to run blobs of machine code (it also includes others to generate those blobs, but those are merely conveniences).
 
Xeo
Shouldn't the @CppCon Twitter handle be @cpp_con?
hahaha
 
@Puppy The important functionality is the ability to actually run the code, not just to generate it.
@Puppy Or not. You can just grab a blob from a network stream and run it.
(Yes, yes, that's a horribly insecure idea)
 
sure.
but the underlying process is not really different to what would happen if you grabbed LLVM IR from a network stream and ran it.
 
C++ can't grab C++ code from a stream and run it. Can't even grab already compiled C++ code and run it.
 
well, it's not a mandatory component of the Standard library, but there's nothing in the language that prevents it.
hell, I have a C++ program right here that reads C++ code from the disk and runs it.
 
3:05 PM
@Puppy Which is also not fundamentally different from grabbing x86 assembly. I don't understand your focus in the fact that there is an IR.
 
there isn't really a big difference between emitting assembly yourself and getting an IR and then translating that to assembly.
but in both C# and C++, if you have some machine code, then you have to perform the same steps to execute it- it has to be placed into executable memory, instruction caches flushed, etc, then you call/jump to it.
 
So do still hold your idea that you have to ship a compiler to generate types at runtime?
 
types are not executable code; so yes, you must have a translation layer.
 
In the CLR they are.
 
only because the CLR ships a translation layer for you from their executable code to the underlying executable code.
 
3:08 PM
Only if you run it on your machine.
 
unless you have a hardware implementation that runs MSIL, then there must always be a software component that performs translation.
 
Which is not a really important fact, because it also applies to running MSIL that doesn't generate types at runtime.
 
right, but nor is there anything terrifically important conceptually about linking Clang and LLVM into your program and using that.
all I ever said was that the only difference between that and the CLR is that in the CLR it ships for you and in C++ you have to ship it yourself.
both systems have the same requirement for fundamentally the same process.
 
And what I said is that you don't have to ship anything.
You need a particular implementation of C++. You don't need a particular implementation of the CLR. All of them are capable of this.
 
right, but the fact that there are C++ implementations that can't be used this way isn't terribly important.
 
3:14 PM
No. But the same that there are no implementations of the CLR that cannot be used that way is.
You don't need to ship any compiler or, in fact, any part of it.
 
well, Microsoft/Mono/whoever ships it for you, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a fundamental requirement, and the same would be true of any Wide implementation that wants to provide a similar feature.
I'm not saying that it's not easier or more accessible in C#
 
A Java processor is the implementation of the Java Virtual Machine (JVM) in hardware. In other words the bytecodes that make up the instruction set of the abstract machine become the instruction set of a concrete machine. == Implementations == Up to now the following Java processors are available: picoJava was the first attempt by Sun Microsystems to build a Java processor aJ102 and aJ200 from aJile Systems, Inc.. Available on boards from Systronix Cjip from Imsys Technologies. Available on boards and with wireless radios from AVIDwireless Komodo is a multithreaded Java microcontroller for research...
Would it work for you if you discuss it in this context?
 
all I'm saying is that they're fundamentally the same approach
well, admittedly, if you actually do have a hardware implementation that runs JVM bytecode, then you can create new Java types at runtime without needing a software translation layer.
 
95
A: Scala: What is the difference between Traversable and Iterable traits in Scala collections?

Duncan McGregorThink of it as the difference between blowing and sucking. When you have call a Traversables foreach, or its derived methods, it will blow its values into your function one at a time - so it has control over the iteration. With the Iterator returned by an Iterable though, you suck the values ou...

According to that terminology, Java not only sucks but also blows since version 8 :)
3
 
@Puppy Needing any software that implements a given spec is fundamentally the same as needing a specific implementation of that spec?
 
3:22 PM
ITT computers made of concrete
 
@jalf GCC can be used as a JIT too.
 
@FredOverflow ;p
 
you don't need Clang specifically, you just need some implementation that satisfies the additional property of being embeddable as a JIT, it just so happens that right now, there's only one implementation that was built to support that.
 
after the -o main is enough. very few Unix programs require you to put options after arguments, and in general it's a bad practice IMO. — jcomeau_ictx Jul 9 '13 at 4:03
wtf??
 
fundamentally, any prospective Wide implementation that would want to offer execution of any code not in a format already suited for execution on that machine would have to offer a software component that makes it suitable, whether that's an interpreter or a JIT or whatever.
personally I absolutely would offer a Wide compiler as part of the Wide Standard library, it just would take forever to keep rebuilding it again under Itanium on Windows :P
 
user3010322
3:29 PM
Ewww itanium.
 
@Puppy people still use itanium?
 
admittedly, the Itanium ABI is not especially well suited to running on Windows, they really need a Windows-specific spec change.
@Mgetz Itanium ABI and Itanium processors are totally different things.
Itanium ABI is the C++ ABI used virtually everywhere, usually with a few platform-specific tweaks, by GCC and Clang.
 
3:43 PM
0
Q: MinGW64 produces 64bit incompatible hello world

user2907546I have a windows 8.1 64 bit computer and have installed MinGW 64bit windows version and added the bin directory to the path. I have compiled hello world - im using the command line. However running the executable produces 'cannot start or run as this program is incompatible with windows 64 bit ...

my money is they forgot to link
 
My company wants to put my picture on their website. And they want it to be a picture of my ass.
 
@OmnipotentEntity You have a donkey?
 
@EtiennedeMartel Mule actually. He's a stubborn fucker. Might just cook him.
 
@OmnipotentEntity I find that parboiling helps get the meat much more tender.
 
4:15 PM
Oh, btw, I finished the draft of my nonius usage guide, yesterday. gist.github.com/rmartinho/dd622309ea46aceeff57
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Is ‘reentrant’ the right term? You won’t run the user-code while running it right? ‘Repeatable’ perhaps?
 
Oh, true. There's no interruption there
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes No asynchronicity?
 
Not unless you introduce it yourself.
I don't want to skew results by adding threads myself.
 
Good stuff.
 
4:22 PM
I do use threads in the analysis steps, but that's after all user code has run.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes nice
 
Btw.
That last example:
std::vector<std::string> v(meter.runs());
std::fill(v.begin(), v.end(), test_string());
meter.measure([&v](int i) { in_place_escape(v[i]); });
How do you prevent an optimized-out scenario?
(If it's easier to answer: How do you prevent it in a handwritten benchmark?)
 
> Fuck the law with my dick in my hand.
 
I conveniently didn't mention it in the text, but v is never used in observable effects, and in_place_escape doesn't return anything.
Gotta go.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes What about returning? (Note: I really don’t understand the example, beyond the need for setting up.)
 
4:33 PM
@LucDanton It sets up a number of strings instances that are modified by the in_place_escape function, since it might run in_place_escape more than once and you don't want it to operate in the same instance every time as that results in different behaviour.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I usually try to do something to summarize the data (e.g., add up numbers, add up a count of some character in strings) and print that out with an "ignore:" label.
Might be hard to make that really generic though.
 
Yeah :|
std::vector<std::string> v(meter.runs());
std::fill(v.begin(), v.end(), test_string());
meter.measure([&v](int i) { in_place_escape(v[i]); });
return std::accumulate(v.begin(), v.end(), "");
I guess this would be reasonable enough.
Well, maybe better just accumulating the lengths or something.
In the end, I can simply let the user deal with it, but I'd like if I could give some pre-packaged help.
 
Oh, void returns? Up to the benchmark writer to use v or whatever it takes to prevent optimizations then?
 
Yeah. Guess that'll have to be it.
I'll just make returning from the setup code volatile too, so that you don't have to make dummy variables.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'm a bit wary of that--especially if you used a constexpr function, it might be able to figure out (for example) when all the strings are the same length, and just return the length of one multiplied by the number of strings it was supposed to generate.
 
4:39 PM
class Arbitrary and a dual, for consuming any value? :Þ Then a benchmark is (Arbitrary a, Consumable b) => a -> b.
 
@JerryCoffin Well, I'll leave it to the user to pick the option that works.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Fair enough. volatile should help a little, but I worry about it too.
 
My code doesn't even know the vector exists.
@JerryCoffin Oh, why that?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Doesn't need to--with global optimization, it can look at one big lump that includes your code and theirs inlined together.
 
@JerryCoffin Oh, I meant that since my code doesn't know of the vector it can't make this choice: chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/18716021#18716021
 
4:41 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Because its semantics are so poorly defined that it's difficult to say exactly what it needs to do under all circumstances.
 
I guess I could write to a bit bucket instead.
But in the end I can only give some convenience and you're the one responsible for fighting the optimizer in the general case.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Could--I've certainly written a lot of garbage to NUL//dev/null over the years...
 
Xeo
I wonder if a compiler could figure out std::ostream out(nullptr); out << stuff; to be a no-op?
 
That's not a bit bucket.
I was thinking of std::ofstream out("/dev/null");.
(Or "NUL" on Windows)
 
4:45 PM
Can you even pass a null buffer to ostream?
 
Xeo
ye
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes No
 
Xeo
write just fails and it sets the failbit
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Yes
 
@Xeo Then it wouldn't work anyway: that operation does not actually require the values to be evaluated at all.
Writing to /dev/null does, because the bytes have to leave the program.
 
Xeo
Right
 
4:47 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yup. Boost logging also has a lazily initialized stream class that acts as a bit-bucket when you have logging turned off. Since that decision happens at run time, I'm pretty sure there's no way to optimize out the write to it.
 
16 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
Gotta go.
 
Bye.
 
I'll check those options later.
Thanks.
 
Xeo
Might as well make it std::fstream out("/dev/null"); and maybe get an input dependency that way too?
 
> [C++11: 27.7.3.1/2]: Two groups of member function signatures share common properties: the formatted output functions (or inserters) and the unformatted output functions. Both groups of output functions generate (or insert) output characters by actions equivalent to calling rdbuf()->sputc(int_type). They may use other public members of basic_ostream except that they shall not invoke any virtual members of rdbuf() except overflow(), xsputn(), and sync().
 
Xeo
4:48 PM
no wait, that'd need to be /dev/zero
 
> [C++11: 27.7.3.2/2]: Postcondition: rdbuf() == sb.
 
Xeo
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Are you trying to make a point?
 
It doesn't have a non null precondition?
 
@Xeo Yes
@R.MartinhoFernandes No, so the result is UB on any output operation through that stream.
 
Xeo
4:50 PM
No it's not
 
But not on construction :S
 
@Xeo How is P->sputc(int_type) on a nullptr P not UB?
 
Xeo
Because it's never called
 
> [C++11: 27.7.3.2/4]: Remarks: Does not perform any operations on rdbuf().
@R.MartinhoFernandes This, even!
 
4:51 PM
Assures the construction isn't UB, so you could bind an actual buffer afterwards, swap with another stream, that kind of thing.
 
Two-phase init.
 
@Xeo I quoted and bolded the passage of standard that says it is.
 
Two-Faced Init. That guy is the worst
 
him and his two faces, thinks he's oh so special
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'm just intentionally misspelling two-phase init
geez, I'd have thought that was obvious :p
 
4:55 PM
And I was playing along.
Misspelling "ain't it?"
 
:(
you win this round!
 
innit
0
Q: Is it valid to construct an `std::ostream` from a null buffer?

Lightness Races in OrbitConsider the following: std::ostream out(nullptr); Is this legal and well-defined? How about if I now do: out << "hello world\n"; Is this legal and well-defined? If so, presumably it's a no-op of sorts?

 
Xeo
21
A: Platform independent /dev/null in c++

XeoEdit: Taken from @Johannes Schaub - litb's mail here with slight modifications: template<typename Ch, typename Traits = std::char_traits<Ch> > struct basic_nullbuf : std::basic_streambuf<Ch, Traits> { typedef std::basic_streambuf<Ch, Traits> base_type; typedef typename base_type::int_t...

 
Immortalised so Xeo can refer to it whenever needed. :)
 
Xeo
The quotes are still there in C++11
just in a different place
 
4:57 PM
dammit
Could you adapt the bottom half of that answer into my question then?
 
Whoring backfired.
 
Xeo
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I did my homework - 3 years ago. :)
@LightnessRacesinOrbit You do, I'm busy cleaning
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'll still get the question rep :D
@Xeo happy to but it seems immoral to steal your answer, particularly when I disagreed with your assertion until now!
 
Xeo
You have my permission, if you want link back to my answer for C++03
 
Xeo
5:00 PM
Actually
 
I'll do it! I need the rep!
I won't.
 
Xeo
my answer is concerned with actually writing to that stream
 
I gotta get on the acoustic motorcycle and head off.
 
Xeo
the relevant quote in C++11 is in [ostream.unformatted]
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes what is an electric bicycle called?
amplified acoustic motorcycle?
 
5:04 PM
@SamDeHaan Hollow-body electric motorcycle.
 
Fixed it
Oh, look, Jerry being a raving twat again
I almost looked up the relevant C++14 quotes, but sod it
 
Xeo
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I ended up updating my answer with C++11 too
> If so, presumably it's a no-op of sorts?
hah
alright, back to cleaning
 
I'm alright
5
I wanted next unconf in Poland because cheap beer and food and stay
England is foggy and kinda dull
 
@BartekBanachewicz You should write a song about that. A few good guitar riffs, and it'd be a hit! :-)
 
next unconference in Michigan.
 
5:19 PM
But I'm enjoying the stay so far in general
 
what's unconf?
 
unconference
 
what's unconference?
 
Best thing ever.
 
user3010322
I wish I could've gone to the unconference.
 
user3010322
5:24 PM
But I'm poor and about to get a whole lot more poor.
 
@Xeo lol k
@BartekBanachewicz yes
 
user3010322
I boarded a plane to a faraway land
The sky was cloudy and the weather grim,
But there's always one thing I have at hand;
An awesome little tablet that makes everything grand!
 
user3010322
Now I just need a chorus.
 
Do you know when concepts are going to be part of C++ ? 2017 ?
 
no.
 
user3010322
5:30 PM
2017 for Clang and GCC.
 
user3010322
20Never for VC++.
 
damn didn't realize you were prescient.
what's the lottery numbers?
 
user3010322
0000000 :)
 
"Probably" 2017 then ?
 
still no.
 
5:33 PM
Is there a reason ? I read somewhere the committee considered concepts as "not ready" for C++11... but didn't find why.
 
if you want to know, you can go ask those morons yourself
none of us are currently unfortunate enough to be actively involved
 
'wish I had their phone number. Anyway, thanks.
 
Entering a bookshop. Wish me luck.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes just put your wallet into custody
 
posted on September 05, 2014 by RongLu

After shipping a number of improvements to Graphics Diagnostics in Visual Studio 2013 Update 3 RC , the team has been working to bring you more profiling tools for DirectX applications. In Visual Studio 2013 Update 4 CTP1 that released yesterday (Download...(read more)

 
5:37 PM
@Nelxiost I have a feeling this might precisely the reason why they don't give out phone numbers
@Puppy tsk tsk
@Puppy speak for yourself :)
 
@sehe Haha it might be so, indeed.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes lol that was so bad
 
oh this is cool. Kinda creepy, but cool.
 
@Nelxiost C++17 is the date of the next expected release of the C++ standard. And concepts is expected to be part of it. But that's not a guarantee either way.
As for the why, this article explains: informit.com/guides/content.aspx?g=cplusplus&seqNum=441
somewhat
 
@OmnipotentEntity "expected" by programmers or by the committee ?
 
5:48 PM
Well Bjarne is behind the idea.
 
I see... Thanks for that link.
 
Well, at least behind "Constraints" which is aka "Concepts Lite"
 
Back when they still had nice Sesame Streets!
 
@Nelxiost Anyway, if you're actually interested in the gory sausage making, isocpp.org/std/status that's a good place to start.
And this is the current proposed specification: open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2014/n4040.pdf
 
Is C++14 already there ?
 
5:59 PM
Yes.
 
@sehe That's so damn heartwarming
 

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