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user1804599
10:00 PM
And since I have a dynamic type system, I can make writef variadic with currying and without ugly hacks!
 
"beloved pure LISP"; This explains stuff.
 
user1804599
I can even make uncurry and curry generic!
 
user1804599
[(1, 2), (3, 4), (5, 6)] |> map (uncurry 2 (writef "%d / %d"))
 
what about korma?
mmm
 
@gamesbrainiac I'm tempted to say, you can search @Wikipedia for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refreshable_braille_display. Admittedly didn't get it this time. Might be fixed?
@CaptainGiraffe (hint: I hate lisp)
 
user1804599
10:03 PM
Lisp hates you!
 
user1804599
I fucking love Clojure.
 
Phew.
 
@rightfold You forgot the "In Soviet Russia" part...
 
user1804599
I would suck Hickey's dick for the sole reason he created Clojure.
 
@rightfold you creating a language or something?
 
user1804599
10:04 PM
I've been doing that for about a year and a half.
 
Ah nice, what're the it's goals?
 
user1804599
I start over every time, but this time I got further than ever with my working optimising compiler!
 
Hahaha
And awesome
something I've been interested in
 
@sehe There is a certain non-lisp like elegance that is permeating all the code You've shown me so. Yeah =)
 
The design part takes me so long though...
 
user1804599
10:07 PM
@OMGtechy A simple, functional language with high-level concurrency features and a library that doesn't rely on global variables like I/O streams, file systems and other OS resources that should actually be passed to main in a dependency injection-like fashion.
 
@sehe I have a blind Comp-Sci student. He is great. He has picture pads, and lots of neat aids. For coding he only uses his row of Braille keys though.
 
@rightfold sounds nice, what're its cons? What is it not good at? And when can I have a go :P
 
user1804599
Object-oriented programming, probably.
 
user1804599
It's basically structs and functions, like in C, except functions can be made overloadable on runtime types of the arguments.
 
> neat aids
Had to block the double-take bifurcation point
 
10:08 PM
@OMGtechy the answer to the last question is never
 
@rightfold you have mutable objects?
 
user1804599
Apart from channels, no.
 
Haha. I'm coming over to check right now
 
user1804599
You can implement mutable variables using threads and channels if you want.
 
user1804599
And they will be slow as a dog.
 
10:09 PM
What if it's a greyhound?
@BartekBanachewicz I find this is often the case. I can hope though!
 
@sehe I'm just a lowly non native speaker. Did that really come across as autoimmune deficiency?
 
user1804599
In fact, I did that in an earlier idea of the syntax I had: gist.github.com/rightfold/5833d7f69938847a398b
 
user1804599
The syntax has changed a little in my mind since then, as have generics.
 
@CaptainGiraffe Mind you, I'm also not a native speaker :) And I am half professionally understanding things in the wrong contexts
 
@CaptainGiraffe not really, no.
 
10:12 PM
@sehe I'm applying the salt grains as needed.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I could try throwing a Budweiser REALLY hard if you'd like?
If we can get people inbetween to rethrow we might do it
Wow, that'd be epic; beer transport system.
 
Be sure to catch it by reference
 
Na, copy the beer!!
All those people along the way get free beer then too.
Beer generator transport system
 
user1804599
But yeah, mutable objects have no benefits. You can implement them using channels and threads if you really want to but they just suck beyond comprehension and complicate everything. Not gonna bother with that shit.
 
user1804599
10:16 PM
Same with mutable local variables because wat do in closures.
 
they're only efficient, convenient, and expressive
who wants any of those things
 
user1804599
They are highly inconvenient.
 
user1804599
It is much easier to reason about immutable objects.
 
nah
mutable objects work fine as long as you reason about them in the same way that you reason about more derived types
 
user1804599
Have you ever written any program other than hello world in a functional language?
 
10:19 PM
The way of thinking is just so different @Puppy
 
immutability isn't that bad. You can get around it
 
nobody gives a shit what the more derived type is as long as it behaves according to the base interface
 
user1804599
And I don't mean C++ but a language that actually focuses on functional programming.
 
similarly, I don't give a shit what state my mutable variables are in
therefore I don't need to reason about it
 
@Puppy hence the locks :)
 
10:19 PM
The guys at work fix my immutable classes.
 
user1804599
@Puppy better make them all invalid state then; no need to initialise them since you don't care about that and it will be more efficient as well.
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix What locks?
 
I'd love more fine grained control over the domain of a specific type.
 
@Puppy in a threading environment
 
I'd like to be able to define type Hours = Int [1:24] and be statically checked.
 
10:20 PM
because race condition is just a myth
 
That would be really cool.
 
@Puppy they're not expressive, they're convenient, but not any more convenient than the immutables and they're only efficient if you don't have any scaling concerns.
 
user1804599
@Sofffia In F* you can do that.
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix Yes, because it's a totally logical extrapolation that I use mutability in every single scenario ever.
 
@rightfold Also in Ada IIRC
 
user1804599
10:20 PM
I am considering such a thing for Styx as well but I don't know how I could possibly do type equality without solving the halting problem (if I want to generalise it enough to any predicate).
 
But Ada is not a functional language so...
 
someone should make a chrome addon so I don't have to give poor journalism sites ad revenue
 
@rightfold Type equality is that hard?
 
@Puppy you give a shit when it changes
 
@Sofffia Yes (something it inherited from Pascal).
 
10:21 PM
@sehe No, I really don't. All that matters is that the new state meets the preconditions.
 
user1804599
@Sofffia Well if I want to do Int[even? this] == Int[not (odd? this)] where the expression between […] would be the constraint.
 
Also Hours(25) should overflow to Hours(1)
 
user1804599
You cannot do that for arbitrary predicates.
 
Well, maybe you don't need arbitrary predicates.
Ada has the even/odd thing IIRC.
 
user1804599
You could brute-force if you could get a set of all values of a specific types, but even then some types have infinite sets of values so == would never terminate.
 
10:23 PM
So it's definitely possible.
 
user1804599
I'm not sure how F* does it. I think it's limited.
 
@rightfold Like "BigInt"?
 
user1804599
Lists for example.
 
@Sofffia Here's where you run into disagreement. A pretty solid argument can be made that hours(25) should throw, or something similar.
 
@JerryCoffin Yes, I could accept that.
 
user1804599
10:24 PM
There are infinitely many values of type [()].
 
Countably infinite though
I know little about the many types of infinity, this is just one I do know a little about
 
@rightfold Why don't you just blindly say that two types are different if they have different names?
 
user1804599
Hmm.
 
user1804599
Because having to give these types names would be inconvenient.
 
And don't check if Hours := Int [1:24] and SomethingThatHasOnly24 := Int [1:24] are the same.
 
user1804599
10:26 PM
let sqrt (x: Float[this >= 0.0f]) = … would be rather interesting.
 
What are these things called? I want to learn more about them.
 
user1804599
IIRC F* calls them refined types.
 
liquid types?
 
user1804599
Section 4.
 
user1804599
10:28 PM
Singleton types should be possible to implement and equality-checkable, though. It would allow overloading on constants. (I.e. type.singleton x would be the type of which only x is a value.)
 
And make it so Int, Double and Float don't exist.
 
user1804599
I only have Int, Float and Decimal and literals for those (0, 0f and 0d).
 
Make it so the compiler chooses the best with regards to what the domain the user specifies.
 
user1804599
And maybe complex numbers but beh detail.
 
user1804599
Whether you want decimal or float literals is always explicit; 0.0 is a syntax error.
 
10:30 PM
For example Int [1:24] -> SmallInt, Int [1:1837346464749] -> Int, Int [1:...] -> BigInt
 
user1804599
@Sofffia Beh.
 
user1804599
That's like that shit in C++ where an integer literal that is too large automatically becomes a long or something it's horrible and unintuitive.
 
@rightfold Did you also start with the "I pretend to be a woman to attract attention and break chauvinism" stuff, like Lightness?
 
user1804599
No guessing; explicit is better than implicit.
 
@rightfold It's good.
 
10:31 PM
@rightfold Not the same. Here the user explicitly defines the domain, so you can easily choose what's best.
 
@Sofffia Because structural equality (for one obvious alternative) is often extremely useful.
 
user1804599
Apr 6 at 22:14, by rightfold
I’m not sure of my gender.
 
@JerryCoffin In the implementation of the language or for the end user?
 
user1804599
@Sofffia Ohh the -> … syntax is actually part of the code?
 
@rightfold Good that i learned about the difference of sex and gender yesterday
 
10:32 PM
@rightfold Yeah, I didn't want to look for +infinite
 
user1804599
Would that be module-wide (maybe good not sure)? Or program-wide (horrible idea)?
 
@Sofffia Are you Jefffrey? Or are the three f's a coincidence?
 
@Loopunroller Yes, I am.
 
@Sofffia What happened, ban?
 
@rightfold What would?
 
user1804599
10:33 PM
The range–type mapping.
 
@Loopunroller No, a stupid experiment which is not going so well.
 
@Sofffia So you started with the "I pretend to be a woman to attract attention and break chauvinism" too!?
 
@rightfold It's just a type definition.
 
user1804599
Ohh I see.
 
@Loopunroller I did it for the money.
 
10:34 PM
This is getting trendy, i should do it too
 
user1804599
I smell mismatches between modules from different libraries.
 
@Sofffia :D
 
@Sofffia For the user of the language (not sure if you include that as "end user" or not).
 
@rightfold You don't have anything like int, long, float, double and just an Int type constructor that takes the lower limit and the upper limit and a Float type constructor that takes a lower limit, upper limit and a precision.
 
user1804599
 
10:36 PM
@Loopunroller Seriously, I just wanted to see if all the money lightness is receiving are because people believe he is a woman.
 
@rightfold Ne@
@Sofffia Money? You mean rep?
 
@Loopunroller No, I mean money.
Donations.
 
WTF!?!?
 
user1804599
@Sofffia You could write a function that takes two integers and returns a new type for which mathematical operators are overloaded. :)
 
Actual money?!
 
10:36 PM
Exactly.
 
You mean not std::get_money money?
 
user1804599
Because this is C++, not Perl.
 
She's getting fucking paper? Shit
 
@rightfold Hmm.
@Loopunroller He says.
 
@Sofffia ;)
 
10:37 PM
It's probably just a way for people to feel more likely to donate or something.
It's some psychological bullshit that works.
@JerryCoffin How?
 
user1804599
@Sofffia I need to figure out how I want generics first, but something like that should be possible.
 
That would be awesome.
 
@Sofffia Do you mean: "How does that look to the user?" or "How do you implement that?"
 
user1804599
In my current design Array T and Array U are completely unrelated types if T ≠ U and you cannot pattern match on it.
 
@JerryCoffin How is that useful for the user of the language.
 
user1804599
10:39 PM
But I want to change that.
 
@TheTweetOfGod Did you give up Friday night smiting? Don't tell me you smote your last foe
Maybe I should really go sleeps
 
@Sofffia If I define a complex<double> and you define a Complex<double>, but they're otherwise identical, they're compatible with each other.
 
Allright sweethearts, my name is Jenny and i looooove C++
WHAT
 
@JerryCoffin Then why don't you define one as an alias of the other?
 
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: went from "In a strange loop" to "It's Complex<...>" [c++] [c++11] [c++14] [c++-faq]
 
10:42 PM
Why is my new profile pic not updated
 
Meh. PATIENCE BRUDDAH
 
@Loopunroller Jenny already has way too much money.
 
@Loopunroller Oh God what have I done
lemme back
lemme change the past
 
@Sofffia Shit's escalating, baby!
 
i don't want to do this anymore
 
10:43 PM
At least your picture hafff fffome ffftyle
 
@sehe ffftyle is a negative thing.
 
@sehe Mine or Jenny's?
wat
i meant loopunroller
 
@Sofffia Typically they arise from different libraries doing roughly similar things, and you'd rather the user didn't have to jump through hoops to make them work together.
 
@Sofffia Yours, obviously. Bitch thinks she's pretty... -.-'
 
@JerryCoffin AFAIK not many languages solve the "different libraries" problem.
 
10:45 PM
@Sofffia ... is he named llloopunrolller?
 
lolno, got it
 
@Sofffia Not many, but some (e.g., Modula III) at least try to for some of the obvious cases like this.
 
@JerryCoffin Maybe you could try to check the actual type implementation. Like checking if they have the same primitive types and whatnot.
 
That might yield false positives though.
 
10:47 PM
@Sofffia Yes, it can.
 
> int x = (int) “Hello”;
this is legal in C++?
I thought pointer to int conversion was a big no no for the standard.
 
Legal? Well formed, yes.
@Sofffia (int) is a reinterpret_cast<> ultimately. It means "shut up, I know what I'm doing".
 
So everything is allowed?
 
Best case it's implementation defined. Or it can get UB. Depends on what yer casting
 
> However, they differ greatly with respect to the rules that
determine whether or not a program is legal with respect to types. As an extreme
example, one can do this in C++ but not in Java:

int x = (int) “Hello”;
 
10:50 PM
It's legal, but not specified.
The nature of pointers is implementation defined.
 
g++ and clang++ give an error for invalid cast
 
Oo. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm pretty sure C would allow it though.
Perhaps C++ started requireing reinterpret_cast<> there?
 
you have to cast it to size_t or uintptr_t
precision truncation
 
Hell, even comparing pointers is fraught with "danger" - can only compare pointers inside the same object (e.g. different elements from one array), and there's only weak ordering, nothing more is guaranteed
@Rapptz Ah. Still implementation defined
 
@sehe Pretty sure any new-style cast can be replaced with a C-style cast.
 
10:52 PM
3 mins ago, by sehe
@Sofffia (int) is a reinterpret_cast<> ultimately. It means "shut up, I know what I'm doing".
@JerryCoffin I agreed ^
 
not all of them
 
Dynamic cast :)
 
Maybe you could take few random values for a type and check if the same values are valid for the other.
But then again, it's not certain.
But it could rule out most of the problems.
 
@sehe Yes and no. Using < you can only compare within the same array--but using std::less, you can compare pointers much more generally.
 
Or hey! The programmer itself could define it.
 
10:53 PM
@Sofffia casting back and forth through void* is allowed, IIRC, although type punning is only allowed with char*
@JerryCoffin how so? I never knew that
 
type std::complex<double> == type OtherLibrary::Complex<double> or whatever
Type equality solved :P
 
Does it work now?
 
A c-style cast is the only way to cast a derived to a private/protected base
iirc anyway
 
@Rapptz You mean reinterpret_cast?
 
@Loopunroller It takes a while to update in chat.
It may take few hours even.
 
10:55 PM
reinterpret_cast is different
this a polymorphic cast
 
@sehe Yup. The "how" is pretty simple--standard says it must work in the definition of "std::less".
 
@Rapptz You do know that a C-Style Cast deferres to a reinterpret_cast if necessary?
 
No. That's not how C style casts work.
 
@Rapptz In C not :p
 
There's an FAQ somewhere
 
10:56 PM
@JerryCoffin Oh. I'm a bit puzzled why they didn't speicfy the same for operator< there then
 
@Rapptz Use the standard for gods sake.
 
> Since there is nothing else left to check and we have not found any reason to believe that
T1 and T2 are different, they must be equal.
 
@Loopunroller Too lazy.
 
@Rapptz §5.4/4
 
Yeah, so this paper basically initially assumes the two types are equal, and then tries to find out if there are some obvious cases in which they are not.
 
10:57 PM
@sehe Apparently wanted to leave operator< as C defined it.
 
Still not perfect.
 
@JerryCoffin ah. kinda makes sense. I try tend to forget about C
 
The conversions performed by
— a const_cast (5.2.11),
— a static_cast (5.2.9),
— a static_cast followed by a const_cast,
— a reinterpret_cast (5.2.10), or
— a reinterpret_cast followed by a const_cast,
can be performed using the cast notation of explicit type conversion.
[...]
If a conversion can be interpreted in more than one of the ways listed above, the interpretation that
appears first in the list is used, even if a cast resulting from that interpretation is ill-formed.
 
that
is missing the access specifiers
look up the line where it says a C style cast can bypass access specifiers
something that no C++ cast can do
 
Yeah, so Modula III had the same idea I had
 
10:58 PM
@Rapptz Now, look here:
The same semantic restrictions and behaviors apply, with the exception that in performing a static_cast in the following situations the conversion is valid even if the base class is inaccessible:
— a pointer to an object of derived class type or an lvalue or rvalue of derived class type may be explicitly converted to a pointer or reference to an unambiguous base class type, respectively;
- [...]
 
whoah
 
Congrats on telling me something I already know.
 
It is pretty explicit though: §20.8.5/8: "For templates greater, less, greater_equal, and less_equal, the specializations for any pointer type
yield a total order, even if the built-in operators <, >, <=, >= do not."
 
C++ is seriously twisted. They made exceptions for C compatibility, where C doesn't even have the feature in the first place. It's like "phantom compatibility"
@JerryCoffin Great. I love that.
 
@Rapptz Yeah, it's still static_cast (not reinterpret_cast, my bad). Just that access rules are ignored.
 
11:00 PM
'just'
 
@Rapptz :p
 
Sorry I have a huge headache
 
@Loopunroller Demo code, in case anybody cares.
 
>tfw one day waifuism will be a social norm
 
mlp.txt is so new to the internet
 
11:05 PM
Today, the inimitable @JerryCoffin made me aware of the fact that the standard library has more stringent specifications for the function object templates defined in <functional>. Added. — sehe 47 secs ago
Now I can sleep better
 
I don't understand how you can make a twitter account over being so new to the internet
 
user image
4
 
> make a twitter
@AlexM. ow
 
@sehe Trying to decide if use of "inimitable" when talking about comparison operators was some sort of pun, or just accidental irony.
 
>tfw >tfw is a fad on facebook
 
11:08 PM
What do you guys use for configuration files?
 
Ell
yaml
 
lol
there's literally 1 parser in C++ for YAML
 
@JerryCoffin It's a kind of neutral flattery (I considered "the venerable", "the enigmatic" but they all seemed too prone to unkind readings)
 
@Rapptz XER encoded ASN.1 of JSON carrying CSV data.
 
@Rapptz Javascript
What
 
11:10 PM
if you go on github and search YAML
all you'll get are mirrors of that one parser
 
@Rapptz WUT. I have 5
I didn't know you work at IBM.
Luckily for you, it's not under the NDA. Because the fools need to publish every odd standard they come up with
@Rapptz cool story.
GUYS! no code outside github exists, KAY?!
 
Steam store front has been updated if anyone cares.
 
Underspecified.
What is the state of the Steam store front if no one cares?
 
@sehe I was trying to figure out some way of cramming "ini" file format in there too, but (not being an actual IBMer) couldn't figure out how to do that.
 
I didn't say 'no code exists outside of github'
Why put words in my mouth?
 
11:13 PM
I liked XER enough :)
 
The last time I searched for publicly available YAML parsers in C++ there was only one.
 
4 mins ago, by Rapptz
there's literally 1 parser in C++ for YAML
 
Go ahead and look on Google for YAML parser for C++.
You'll only get 'yaml-cpp'
 
@Rapptz I agree. Yet, you didn't give any solid basis for your claims earlier. When asked, you just referred to github. You gotta to see how that's misleading if you actually used more information to reach such a conclusion
 
Ell
@Rapptz tbh I don't use configuration files in c++
 
11:15 PM
@sehe Enough for what? To make you want to puke so badly it reminded you of when you were young and got ridiculously drunk?
 
Ell
I don't finish projects :L
or get far enough to need config files
 
@JerryCoffin Wait. When was that?
 
@sehe Your big birthday party. If you don't remember it, maybe you were even more drunk than I realized.
 
It must be true. The venerable wasp man never lies
 
@Ell The last time I asked this question I ended up wrapping Lua for C++.
I might just use INI
I don't think I'll need anything other than key-value.
 
Ell
11:20 PM
@rapptz just use lua?
 
I could just make my own domain specific config
 
Ell
You won't even need to write or download a parser then
 
@sehe It's true--I never lie. You can only lie if you know that what you're saying is false; I know so little I could almost never lie even if I wanted to.
 
Ell
@rapptz if INI sufficed surely you don't even need to extend anything
 
That seems like a mean tablet for € 169,95
 
Ell
11:22 PM
Just run the config file through Sol and get some variables
@sehe it does
 
Test, test, test
 
@Loopunroller Sorry, your signal was not received this station.
 
@JerryCoffin Just by forgetting 'by' you gave it away
Actually, wtf
You gave nothing away because there was nothing to give away
 
@Rapptz I'm telling you--you're seriously missing out if you ignore the wondrous beauty that is XER!
 
11:27 PM
@sehe I have a Nexus 7 (the original model) and I'm quite fond of it. The 2013 model (the "sequel" to mine) is supposedly better on all counts while hardly costing more than the original.
 
@sehe looks nice
 
11:52 PM
Some big store chains are called "category killers". That was apparently the "Lounge killer"...
 
Ell
Man I'm lonely this year already
 
user1646075
@Ell lucky the year is nearly gone. Better luck next annum.
 
Ell
Academic year :'(
 
user1646075
ohhhh. No eligibles in your institute?
 
Ell
Not in an institute is a problem
All my friends are :P
 
user1646075
11:59 PM
dayyum!
 
Ell
I'll be in one next year
But its gonna take some getting used to
 

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