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2:00 PM
Defying all logic and experience, I hoped MSVS2013 November CTP would compile my C++11 code.
I am disappointed once again. And hit with an ICE.
 
ice?
 
Internal Compiler Error.
 
ah, lovely
 
@rubenvb VS is crap. Better pretend it doesn't exist.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes but it so PRETTY *-*
 
Xeo
2:01 PM
Guess Robot gave up any and all hope
 
@Xeo It's ridiculous and we're all schmucks for putting up with it.
Heck, even just for taking it seriously.
 
Xeo
@rubenvb file a bug report, at least
 
@Xeo I should, shouldn't I? They gave it to me (student) for free anyways.
 
Xeo
Hm, what should I eat today
 
@rubenvb And you should have given it back. With lemons!
Make MSVC's favourite colour watch while you kill its parents.
 
2:05 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes No, much better: grenade apples!
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit stackoverflow.com/help/privileges/vote-up "When should I vote up? Whenever you encounter a question, answer or comment that you feel is especially useful, vote it up!" The question was useful to me because I learned something. — James Duffy 2 mins ago
wtf
 
Now I'm dreaming of a season of 24 where MSVC is the big bad and Jack Bauer spends the entire season torturing it for no reason.
10/10 would watch.
 
oh shit, @sehe overtook me in rep again
@R.MartinhoFernandes speaking of, the new series starts on Sat \o/
 
Meh, got bored of 24.
After S2, IIRC.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes You would do if you had to 'watch' it in narrative, text form in a Linux terminal box.
 
2:12 PM
Actually, I got bored of most TV shows lately.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit you should lighten lightening up.
 
Yeah, me too. I'm moving onto something more intellectually challenging, like 'How do I assemble this fucking chair?'.
 
pling pling pling
 
Actually, not checked TV shows today.
 
Vote for return <braced-init-list> support in MSVCrap!
 
2:16 PM
@rubenvb very good
 
There's Elementary S02E22.
 
> Berlin Brandenburg has been built with a capacity of 27 million passengers a year, but the city’s two other airports, which are supposed to close when BER opens, took 26 million passengers last year.
 
I now see your nick does not contain "lightning" at all.
 
Well done.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Each?
@rubenvb whoops
 
Xeo
2:17 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes That whole project is just a giant WTF
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Does seem to be a bit short on expansion room, yes:(
 
@MartinJames Revolution and The 100 were both good yesterday. Excellent music in each, actually.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Together.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Okay so what's the problem?
 
Xeo
"the" problem? BER is/was full of problems from the moment of its inception
 
2:18 PM
Capacity for another 1m passengers. What was the capacity of the old airports? Bet it was less than 26m combined.
 
@Xeo Oh - one of THEM? In UK, we have 'HS2' - a boondoggle high-speed rail line.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit No. It was 26M combined. That's what it says there.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes No, it doesn't. It says it took 26m combined last year. Doesn't mean that was its designed-for capacity.
 
> but the city’s two other airports, (...), took 26 million passengers last year
 
I don't remember where I'm going.
 
2:20 PM
@MartinJames Technically we don't have it yet
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Ah. Still not important. The new one will be already at capacity when it opens. That's the silly bit.
As soon as it opens, a new one is needed.
 
Xeo
@rubenvb You couldn't have simplified that code further?
 
Sounds like one of Zeno's paradoxes.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes My point is that that seems to be the norm. Capacities are under-specified. Opening with 1m spare capacity seems likely to be a much better state of affairs than found at present, if one presupposes that the original capacity of those airports was far less than the number of passengers they ended up serving yearly (hence, build us a new airport plz).
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes ...and may easily be short for Vladislav (for one example) not just Vladimir.
 
2:21 PM
You're also making assumptions about growth in passenger numbers without showing any figures, and ignoring the fact that encouraging huge growth in passenger numbers may not even be desirable
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Oh, there's more. The new one will not open any time soon.
 
Same reason we don't build our new motorways to have 5 lanes on them in each direction
well, not all of them anyway :)
 
It's pretty much certain that when it opens it will be over capacity.
 
Ah - 'SXF'. That's the other one. I went to Tegel last time.
 
It's one of those delayed forever projects.
 
Xeo
2:23 PM
IIRC Berlin had a third airport before the whole BER thing
 
They're already arranging funds to expand it.
hahaha
@Xeo Yeah. It's a park now.
 
Xeo
ye
 
Yoohoo! Still waiting for that Stellar Question badge, guys!!
 
Schönefeld seems to be a bit further out:(
Somebody downvote LRIO to remove the suspense.
 
Sam
Hi guys!
 
2:28 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah - the dubious UK HS2 will be the same - delays and overruns.
 
@Xeo It has already been under construction for twice as long as originally planned, no longer has a scheduled inauguration date, and already cost four times as much as planned.
It's quite an impressive failure.
 
@Sam Oh hai sam.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit sure, you want a stellar question by having others favorite one of your posts. I want an upset by having people vote for someone else's answer stackoverflow.com/questions/15090209/… -- Maxim Yegorushkin gets 3 more votes, and I get a shiny.
 
..unless the contract is worded with massive penalty clauses, in which case the line will get half-built and then abandoned, ie. all the eco damage but none of the advantages.
 
Sam
@Jefffrey what's up? How's going on?
 
2:29 PM
And there's this week's request for another 1.1 billion, which is more or less the total initial budget, so up to five times now.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes ...and some people like to exclaim about how only software projects can go that badly wrong.
 
There is worse:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_Trams
 
I like the expression of desperation that is just giving up on having a scheduled date for completion.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes It's literally impossible for me to use gdb without finding 10 features I miss from MSVC debugger.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes "when it's done" :p
 
Xeo
2:33 PM
@Yakk He needs 4
and you need 2
> more than 10
is the badge description
 
@JerryCoffin LOL!
 
Xeo
> Highest scoring answer that outscored an accepted answer with score of more than 10 by more than 2x.
 
@Sam It's ok.
 
@xeo blast! Oh well, there goes my hope.
 
Sam
@Jefffrey Great!
 
2:36 PM
@JerryCoffin Clearly they don't build airports with Scrum
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes :( if the overruns are so massive, the temptation will be to up the landing fees and EasyJet/Ryanair will simply stop servicing Berlin. June could be the last unconference:(
 
Xeo
@MartinJames BER won't be open for a long time, I think
 
@MartinJames Actually, I heard they were planning to open the parts that are built for the low-cost companies before the whole shebang gets running. (source: EasyJet pilot)
 
I heard that I'm a genius.
 
Xeo
ahaha, what
 
2:39 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes ...at least not this one. (Some) hardware people are starting to do Scrum though. Not that surprising I guess, since virtually all circuit design is now done by writing code.
 
@MartinJames let's start our own open source airport project :D
 
Oh, and btw, Qt Creator 3.1 snuck in a Clang Code model plugin :-)
@Xeo what, you mean, remove the std::string stuff?
 
@DeadMG The voices in your head are not a reliable source.
 
Or was that sarcasm?
 
Xeo
2:40 PM
and the std::pair and the function calls
 
well screw that.
 
Xeo
(although the std::string seems to be needed to reproduce the ICE)
 
@Xeo It's pretty minimal, let them figure it out.
 
@Xeo you're right but I suspect it's a doc bug. 11 would be dumb
 
2:41 PM
I have better things to do, like, not use MSVC.
 
@DeadMG starred for irony
 
Xeo
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Since I actually got that badge twice, I can say that it's not
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Sounds like a good plan. Open the essential airport facilities, like runway, security, passport, refuelling etc. but forget about the ridiculously-overprices shops for now.
 
Xeo
the minimum needed upvotes is 11 and 23, respectively
@rubenvb I think I also managed to produce another ICE while trying to trim down your example
 
@Xeo lol, at least submit a bug report :-p
 
2:42 PM
@Xeo oh fuck it then
@Xeo I always disliked the way that badge description is worded, anyway
 
@rubenvb MS notified me 3 days ago that the bug I reported in the VS2013 preview has been fixed in RTM :p
 
@melak47 I think the most surprising thing is that you got notified. And that's saying something.
 
@JerryCoffin But they know so much about ODR-using arrays.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit the notification came about 9 months after STL already commented on it to tell me the compiler team had already fixed it :v
 
Xeo
@melak47 hah, same
 
2:45 PM
@melak47 Oh well that's more like it
 
Xeo
bet they were going through their open reports and closing the fixed ones
 
@DeadMG They're not very good at communication, unfortunately
 
@Xeo still nothing on the empty parameter pack substitution though :(
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I'm not sure which part is more funny: them destroying everything, or their stereotypical behaviour.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes exactly
 
2:47 PM
in C is there a way to cast to a type derived a runtime?
 
frankly, is there any fucking difference?
@mrpyo sorry what
 
for example in Java you have Class.cast()
is something like this possible in c?
 
wouldn't you need inheritance first? :v
 
C doesn't have derived types...
 
Sam
@mrpyo Did you mean C++?
 
2:49 PM
well first a type would have to be a first class object in C which I guess it isn't...
 
Xeo
@rubenvb Now I can't find the repro anymore :(
 
also I can assure you that I have no idea what the fuck Class.cast does in Java.
nor do I want to know.
nor does C even have inheritance or member methods.
 
but maybe there is some hack around it?
 
your question doesn't make sense.
come back when it does; or preferably don't
 
The hack around C not having derived types is called C++. Try that.
2
 
2:52 PM
@TheForestAndTheTrees but can you cast to type derived at runtime?
...like in managed languages?
 
can you ask on Stack Overflow?
 
What is a type derived at runtime? Do you mean a type deduced at runtime, or a derived type?
 
deduced, sorry English is not my first language
 
That doesn't make sense.
 
Oh wow. Jonathan doesn't easily lose his temper
 
2:55 PM
@mrpyo Class.cast doesn't do what you think it does.
 
@LucDanton everyone is, then :)
 
(Hint: it doesn't really do anything)
 
well it does - it gets you object of other type
 
Nope.
 
internally maybe it does nothing
 
2:56 PM
@mrpyo Alright. What are you actually trying to do, then? Why do you want to do that?
 
i dont care about that
 
Given Class<T> klass;, klass.cast(o) is exactly the same as (T)o
 
It just stays an Object, but it has checked for runtime type
 
No difference at all, not runtime.
 
@mrpyo Start caring. We do care. We get too many people who don't care here.
Why are discussing Java?
 
2:57 PM
@mrpyo If you could just kindly leave, then we'd all appreciate it.
 
@sehe seems obvious that some comments are missing
 
@mrpyo I have the feeling that you think that doing this is the solution to your problem, but you don't know how to do this. I suggest looking for other solutions to your problem. And if you have a specific issue with your solution, try searching StackOverflow for an answer.
 
let's say I have *void but I deduced at runtime what type (call it T) it is (have some reference to type, I don't know how it is represented in C++) and want to call a method that takes T as an argument: some_method(T obj) with this *void as an argument
 
@sehe I saw this when it happened. Jonathan was not out of line.
 
@DeadMG Stop being a total dick. Thanks.
 
Sam
3:00 PM
*void ?
 
@mrpyo "(have [something that doesn't exist in C++], I don't know how it is represented in C++)"
 
*trekvoyager
 
is type a first class object in C++?
 
@mrpyo You need a problem before you can get a solution.
 
@mrpyo: You will have to stop thinking in Java terms if you want to fix this. Think in terms of C, and in terms of what you're trying to achieve.
@mrpyo No.
 
3:02 PM
oh ok than
 
Xeo
Err, define 'first-class'.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit The other guy can't even ask a well-formed question, and he comes in here and shits it all about the place, and I'm the dick? Nice.
 
@DeadMG He's been polite the whole time. Try it. If nothing else, "we'd all appreciate it" is yet another example of your continued insistence on bundling everyone here with your shitty behaviour, and frankly I'm getting fucking sick of it.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit So many poor souls desperately seeking rep.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes sweet sweet repz
or "merit points" as the meta naysayers like to call it
@Xeo me
 
Sam
3:05 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I don't believe that's Lightness today! Someone must have hacked his/her account!
 
@Sam Darkness Races in Dog
@Sam Her cat was on earlier
 
Xeo
... 'her'
lawl
 
Sam
@Xeo allright?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes 14 and trolling? same person
@Xeo innit
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit yup
@R.MartinhoFernandes The thought never even crossed my mind. I was just observing.
 
3:07 PM
wish I'd seen it
got an URL at least?
 
Xeo
> fromating
 
and no fromating fixes in sight
 
just mistagging
oh fuck it was approved
 
@Xeo I spy an auto-hotkey whizkid on badge hunt
 
3:08 PM
In programming language design, a first-class citizen (also object, entity, or value) in a given programming language is an entity which supports all the operations generally available to other entities. These operations typically include being passed as a parameter, returned from a function, and assigned to a variable. History The concept of first- and second- class objects was introduced by Christopher Strachey in the 1960s. He did not actually define the term strictly, but contrasted real numbers and procedures in Algol: First and second class objects. In , a real number may appear i...
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit It was ugly indeed.
 
Xeo
@mrpyo Now define 'passed as parameter', 'function', 'returned from a function' and 'variable'. You can pass types through C++ templates, you can 'return' them with meta-functions, or through template types that are otherwise empty and only carry the type along, and you can assign them to 'variables' with typedef/using.
 
can you pass a type to reference?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I bet the OP called Jonathan the equivalent of brain-damaged for failing to "intuit" that his invocation wasn't actually in the global namespace
 
3:11 PM
i.e. value of reference is type
if no it is not first-class object in C++
 
In java, it would still be a typereference, but yes, semantically
@mrpyo It isn't. What are you trying to establish here?
We already know C++ sucks.
 
thanks, Lightness... already told me
 
In Java it would still be an object holding type information.
 
I'm trying to explain what F-CO is to Xeo
 
Lol. That's amusing.
 
3:13 PM
Like you can make one in pretty much any language.
 
anyway Jonathan must have a mental illness because he chooses to administrate GCC
 
I didn't say C++ sucks
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Only the stdlib.
 
(personally I think it kinda does, but I didn't say it)
 
OK, C++ sucks. There, I said it;)
 
3:14 PM
well maybe not that it sucks, but it's too complex, and bit messy for me
 
Types as first class citizens is more like you have in Ruby.
 
@mrpyo There was no other point in saying all the other stuff, really
 
Jun 27 '13 at 13:05, by R. Martinho Fernandes
C♮ sucks.
 
3:16 PM
C++ sucks, not sure what adjective to apply to Ruby...
 
That's too neutral. It almost falls flat
@MartinJames It's a gem!
 
Aaarghhh!
 
@sehe It most certainly doesn't fall flat!
 
Sam
@Xeo looool
 
I don't think ANSI C sucks though...
at least I'm able to understand it more or less, entirely
 
3:20 PM
now we know you're crazy :p
 
Xeo
It's primitive beyond comparison.
 
How the fuck do I log a std::function.
Dammit.
 
Xeo
give up
 
This is undebuggable.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Watch: ⏥ ba-dum-tshh ͒
 
3:21 PM
wtb historical debugger
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes wrap it?
 
And then what?
I want to log useful information.
 
Well, have some kind of id in the wrap
 
That's too invasive :(
Need to change all sources.
 
Xeo
log the typeid of the target functor?
 
3:22 PM
Ah. So "I don't want intrusive changes" and "it wasn't designed for traceablity".
Well, you're in a bind
 
Xeo
that's the best you can do, I think
 
GDB has backwards execution.
 
Has had since v7 IIRC
 
Xeo
you can move the 'current line' pointer around!
 
3:23 PM
VS has IntelliTrace, but only for managed code.
 
If C had namespaces it would be fairly usable...
 
Xeo
lol
 
@Xeo Doesn't get me the old states back.
@mrpyo C already has namespaces.
:: is not what makes it usable.
 
well maybe not just namespaces, but proper package managment
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's what you get for mutable state!
 
3:25 PM
@mrpyo Use Go.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Honestly, its really barebones at the moment.
 
Sam
Okay guys...!! ... time to go...
 
What?
It already has a stdlib more featured than C++.
It has a standard package manager, a standard build system, a standard documentation generator, ...
Barebones?
 
Maybe he meant the board game
 
All that is well and good, especially go get, but I think the reason I don't like it much is that it was few language features.
 
3:27 PM
(That is pretty much all I envy from Go: the infrastructure)
 
is it compiled?
 
Everything is. And everything isn't.
 
@mrpyo yes.
 
I mean performance is the main reason to not use managed language...
 
That's not what you asked.
 
3:30 PM
oh, it's garbage collected, so I guess being young it may be even slower than Java or C#
not that they are really slow, I guess you know what I mean
 
Yes, that's how performance works. Guessing.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Take a look at Julia. Much nicer language and very good performance.
@mrpyo Believe me when I say this you want garbage collection.
 
Xeo
@GamesBrainiac Err
 
@Xeo You don't look like Sutter :P
 
@GamesBrainiac I know I do, but there are some people that don't
believe me there are people that still use C++
 
3:35 PM
cough
 
I don't want it.
 
I want my garbage collected.
 
@mrpyo Honestly, why not use C++ then. Loads of people use it, so there's sure to be someone who can help you if you have a problem.
 
Xeo
@mrpyo ahahaha
 
It would start smelling otherwise
 
3:35 PM
@TonyTheLion You already smell :P
 
I smell great, yes
 
Xeo
Right, I use C++ because I don't want garbage collection.
Did you know that there are garbage collectors in C++?
 
places breakpoint in tick function FUUUUUUUUUUUU
I need more screens.
 
Xeo
go home and work remotely from your 6 screens
 
3:37 PM
@Xeo Eh? Where?
 
Seriously, garbage collection is damn old.
@GamesBrainiac hboehm.info/gc
 
doesn't it require use of special references?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Thanks. I'll probably never use it. Smart points seem to be working all right for me, for now.
 
Xeo
9 mins ago, by Games Brainiac
@mrpyo Believe me when I say this you want garbage collection.
 
3:42 PM
@Xeo condition: if I use C++ that is.
 
Didn't you just contradict yourself twice?
 
I use C++ because I love MSVC.
 
He said that I want gc, he didn't say anything about himself :)
 
Said no one sane ever.
 
I like MSVS but I don't use C++
 
3:46 PM
In fact I'm not sure why I use C++ even when I have a choice
 
oh, I guessed you people had no choice
just made to use C++ by your bosses
 
It seems to me the only sane motivation for using C++ is if you care a lot about performance, which is not the case in most situations, at least for me
Yet I use it
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes still
 
> Within C++, there is a much smaller and cleaner language struggling to get out.
That's what everyone falls in love with, not C++.
That, or they're just not snae.
(Keeping the typo because it reminds me of SFINAE)
 
Xeo
@AndyProwl I use it because I generally like it, and am proficient with it
 
3:48 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah, but it seems to me that such smaller and cleaner language already exists in other languages
 
I don't use much C++ these days.
Yay
 
Xeo
@mrpyo I'm currently made to use ActionScript.
 
why complain?
it's pretty decent
 
Xeo
what
 
lol
@AndyProwl Like what?
 
3:49 PM
@Xeo Right, I think it's the same mechanism that keeps me choosing C++, but I realize that a sane decision would be to become proficient in more convenient languages
 
you use 3.0 don't you?
 
Xeo
Yes
Doesn't make it better.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes C#, for what I know about it
Haskell for the functional part
 
try haxe
 
That's the thing, they all have bits and pieces of it, but not it.
 
Xeo
3:50 PM
The meta-programming capabilities of C++ are pretty hard to find elsewhere, from what I know.
 
But it seems to me C# has more of it than C++
And it's way simpler
@Xeo That's the thing, most often I do not need them. I surely love them, but at work I rarely end up using any of my meta-programming skills
 
The main difference is that it is perfectly sane to like those pieces you can find elsewhere, but it isn't sane to like "it" when it looks like It in C++.
 
It happened only once actually
 
I bet you wanted to be glamorous game developers in your youth, that's why you people learned C++
 
Xeo
3:52 PM
Warning, stereotypes inc.
 
I'm in my youth.
C++ was the last language I learned.
 
or as a kid...
 
I started late
 
Xeo
I learned C++ because that's the first language I came across, basically
Well, actually, the first was some C-derived bastard scripting language for some Ragnarok Online server emulator
 
I feel sorry for you
 
3:54 PM
I still like C++. C++03.
 
Fuck I'm old
 
the first language I encountered was DinkC
a C-inspired language used to script Dink Smallwood
 
Xeo
I have since worked with Delphi, Python, C#, AS3 and Haskell.
 
I suppose it's even hard to get into C++ (meaning proper C++11) today, with all the old stuff floating around
 
I don't think so
C++11 makes C++ more attractive than it was before
Maybe I should say less disgusting
But that's the idea
 
Xeo
3:58 PM
Except if your name is Tomalak.
 
I still tell everyone that asks me to not start with C++.
 

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