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12:00
^robotproof
sbi
sbi
@Abyx Someone who came in here and asked impossibly bad questions, trying to make people explain just about everything. She was so bad, it almost felt like someone was doing a psychological experiment on us. Alf spent a few nights teaching her.
She was cited on meta for being a woman who disapproved of some raunchy jokes here, and I wrote a in comment that Tina merely complained about us not answering her questions, and that none of us felt compelled, because Lounge and because Tina. Then Jeff banned her from SO (because she was bad) and told everybody Tina was a man – a breach of privacy to which the lounge really exploded in rage... It's all down there in the archives, if you want to know.
@LucDanton Well, I guess most bots would despair trying to find the text widget to write "I'm not a robot" into. :)
It’s a checkmark.
sbi
sbi
@LucDanton That's why they would despair.
Ell
Ell
@sbi hmm. I feel like I remember tina but I'm not sure
although I was the first in the lounge of the regulars, I wasn't really regular to begin with
@sbi lol
sbi
sbi
12:11
@Ell You have certainly been around long enough. Last night we found your first message here, on the 2nd or 3rd day of this room.
Ell
Ell
Yeah I think I do remember her/him
Hey Coliru is down and for once it's not my fault.
> This message is to inform you that the host that your cloud server 'stacked-crooked' resides on has alerted our monitoring systems as of 11:03 UTC. We are currently investigating the issue and will update you as soon as we have additional information regarding what is causing the outage.
Unless I also wrecked the host.
user1646075
@StackedCrooked UB in one of the submitted codes
user1804599
> codes
user1646075
:-)
12:14
Oh, I recently enabled /proc. Maybe that enabled some attack..
Probably not.
user1646075
i think your mistake was setting the root password to 'password'
No silly, it's 123.
user1646075
you'd have to use l23 these days - mixed charsets!
Ell
Ell
well what do we have here: nordpresse.be/…
^this isn't for real is it?
sbi
sbi
@Ell Do you remember this? Or this? Or this?
12:20
@Mgetz: No, there's no such guarantee. The definition of pointer subtraction specifically mentions overflow (and UB) if the difference is too large for ptrdiff_t. — Mike Seymour 1 min ago
I could have sworn ptrdiff_t had to be able to hold the absolute difference between any two pointers on a system
sbi
sbi
@StackedCrooked Um. Why don't you scroll up a screen or two?
14 mins ago, by sbi
@Abyx Someone who came in here and asked impossibly bad questions, trying to make people explain just about everything. She was so bad, it almost felt like someone was doing a psychological experiment on us. Alf spent a few nights teaching her.
user1646075
@Ell can't load it?
Oh, Tina..
I noticed that she was spamming Alf on his facebook months after she'd left this place.
sbi
sbi
@StackedCrooked Really? Oh my. Well, he did have time on his hands, apparently.
user1646075
@Mgetz only big enough to cover an addressible lump. eg back on segmented mode 16 bit intel days, pointers were effectively 20 bits stored in 16+16 bit words, and each allocation could only be a 16 bit lump.
Ell
Ell
12:23
@sbi I seem not to. Looking at it, I can't even find any messages by me for some days
I think I popped in on the 2nd day, and never returned for some number of days
sbi
sbi
@Ell What a thing to have slept through!
@aclarke AFAIK most compilers used long which was 32bits at the time for that
Ell
Ell
@sbi yes!
sbi
sbi
@Ell That's be months after the room was created!
@rightføld We have submarines
Ell
Ell
12:24
@sbi It must have been months before I returned then :)
user1646075
@Mgetz not in 16 bit segmented mode with long pointers. What a nightmare that was.
user1646075
it's probably the main reason tehre's so many UB scenarios in the rules now
user1804599
Vim is great.
@aclarke that was precisely the reason, because you could end up subtracting two far pointers
user1646075
12:26
@Mgetz yup - and then wonder why it wasn't addressible. You could even have two 16kb allocations right next to each other (if you cared to do the math) but you couldn't access a byte in the 2nd chunk from chunk1[16386 + n] withut getting a protection fault
Ell
Ell
@sbi I think this chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/336403#336403 was my second message
@Mgetz The precondition is already present for 2003, but I know it’s been a longstanding topic in the folklore.
sbi
sbi
@Ell Basically, Tina is one of the major reasons people are so weary of help vampires here. /cc @Abyx
Ell
Ell
Hmm. I must have just not been so active back then
@LucDanton ah, I suspect that @aclarke is right, segmentation and AWE would make it very painful to write a standard that would cover all cases
sbi
sbi
12:27
Apr 11 '11 at 10:21, by Chris Becke
@sbi I don't believe tina is real. I believe we are being gamed by some psych students doing a study on how much more helpful people in internet chatrooms are when faced with an persona which is perceived to be female.
@StackedCrooked obviously
@Mgetz Don’t think segmentation is an issue. Remember you can only perform difference on pointers into the same array; can you have arrays across segments?
> one of the .... codes
[sic]
user1804599
Now I only need to figure out a way to make Vim highlight lines that were mentioned in compiler output.
@sbi thanks for the explanation. and btw I don't think that trolls should have privacy.
user1646075
12:28
@sehe whimsy? why am i being picked on rage quit!
rip SSL
6
user1646075
@Abyx trolling is in the eye of the beholder
@aclarke you mean, ℓ⒉⑶? Because l23 is not mixing charsets
user1646075
@LucDanton the same-array rule is to guarantee that a legal array won't be screwed over by segmentation
YAY my new laptop shipped!
user1646075
12:30
I seem to recall that you could allocate massive (for the time) arrays back then and there was some serious drama going on in the assembly to implrement it
Once again loungecpp dot net remains unvulnerable by virtue of not using SSL at all
@aclarke Ah yes, that would be the right way around.
@sehe required a chassis swap apparently
user1646075
@sehe well, y'know, must include at least one from [0-9] [a-z] [A-Z] [*0-9a-zA-Z] etc. But forcing higher unicode letters too - I like!
sbi
sbi
@Abyx Yeah, what I perceive as trolls shouldn't have privacy. Or a right to live, really. However, what you perceive so, I am not so sure. You could, after all, be misguided enough to consider me trolling. And let's not even start about the other billions of people on earth. Who knows what they consider bad behavior?
So, either all follow my rule on what's good and what's bad, and who's got to get privacy and who's not, I'd rather admit everybody to have it. In the end, facing 6 billion potential enemies, this seems the best for me.
12:31
@aclarke that's character classes, I think. But yeah. I kid
user1646075
@sehe I really want to learn how to inject unicodes (<==) into my text. My plain vanilla US-ASCII keyboard on Linux doesn't seem to support it out of the box.
@aclarke kcharselect FTW (babelmap or something on windows; babelstone.co.uk/Unicode/babelmap.html)
user1646075
but metakeys and all shift left-altGR business? I assume europeans with their funny character sets have it as a matter of course.
I'm sure they do. I'm, however, in the sane part of Europe!
@rightføld Oh I see. fn is an object there, right?
user1646075
12:38
oh well. Plain vanilla. nowt wrong wi' 96 characters
So objects can't be polymorphic?
@sehe ¿How do you write ‘Bacon–Erdős number’ with the correct symbols and typography then?
    <¿> 191, \277, U+00BF INVERTED QUESTION MARK, ^K?I, ^K~?, &iquest;
    <‘> 8216, U+2018 LEFT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK, ^K'6, &lsquo;
    <ő> 337, U+0151 LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH DOUBLE ACUTE, ^Ko"
    <’> 8217, U+2019 RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK, ^K'9, &rsquo;
@LucDanton Vim FTW
Missed the ‘–’.
I did. You get the drift :)
user1646075
12:43
@sehe I want languages to start using more unicode operators. I heard a rumour that Perl 6 is dabbling with that. Perl6 will be ready around the year 2043 I believe
user1646075
@LucDanton how do you type them in??? maybe i should set my linux to a EU charset that is a safe superset of boring old US-ASCII. Any suggestions?
@aclarke My layout has them.
That’s not right, hang on.
user1646075
and the alt-gr lets you select the meta chars? I think enabling alt-gr might be the first great leap
Can’t find an image, weirdly enough. This interactive map has everything though ("Maj." means "Shift").
user1646075
heh - there's some significant movement of the ordinary letters there.
12:49
@aclarke Nah, it’s all layout-dependent. E.g. "éèê" I have on level 1, and I have used layouts where AltGr wasn’t very convenient.
I hate X's keyboard maps.
@aclarke They're not ordinary
user1646075
and you have the german B (SS) in the french layout? any particular reason beyond teh obvious
user1646075
@sehe maybe not in your world
@sehe’s right though, it’s not a usual layout.
user1646075
12:50
ok
@aclarke don't trigger my traumas
user1646075
i'm almost inspired to try again. The old X11 fiddling was traumatic.
The typical layout in France is a qwerty-derivative (azerty), and is terrible for most purposes (including inputting French). I switched over to a layout that was carefully designed, with the same methods as a Dvorak layout.
user1646075
@sehe sorry, you've been through enough. Here, have a mintie.
o.O
user1646075
12:53
oh right. I guessed that qwerty foolishness could be ignored for other languages, but yet it still has influence? ewwww
@aclarke And as it so happens, almost every available space was used for many symbols—it’s a layout designed for French, but with European languages in mind.
Plus niceties like a dead key for Greek letters, useful for e.g. mathematical symbols but not inputting Greek proper.
user1646075
@LucDanton ok
user1646075
12:55
dead-keys - they add accents but do not otherwise enter a distinct character?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Right! When's the next bus to Essen? :D
Yup. ('Diacritical mark' is the general term, e.g. the cedilla (ç) is not an accent. Neither are Greek letters!)
@R.MartinhoFernandes did you get to try it?
user1646075
groovy. Wonder if the internets will turn up a good how-to now. I haven't tried in 5 years
12:57
I'd like X to just take the console keymap and use that.
But it insists on using its incredibly daft and broken system.
user1646075
gag - it's midnight. Maybe tomorrow. The wife has just turned off the shower. If I don't hurry, miss the show.
user1646075
bbs
So here I am stuck without decent international keyboard (dead key) support
@aclarke Does that mean what I think it means?
user1804599
Dead keys are terrible.
@rightføld not having them is worse
user1646075
13:02
@rubenvb boobs! /cc @rightføld
@rightføld it's no secret that I can't stand him (which, as sbi has pointed out, is kind of rare. Most regulars are asses on a regular basis, but still well-liked overall), but... that's kind of a not cool thing to say :/
Dead keys should die
@aclarke go!
@aclarke It’s not much in terms of spicing things out, but you could shop for an international qwerty layout.
@rubenvb Why would you want dead keys in a system that supports Compose???
Also own layout best layout
13:10
-1 not enough Greek letters
λολ
I have lambda under K and chat hijacks AltGr+K for no good reason. Crime
user1646075
@LucDanton oh yeah, i'd be doing that to all my co-workers. and trying to use pseudo-mathematical symbolism in comments
user1646075
@sehe :->> ahhhh
yoy
13:12
Oh, no, it's under Y. Hm, maybe I moved it
user1646075
@LucDanton the main issue is telling the linux drivers to interpret it. I could texta my favourite symbols onto the keys
'sfar as I know xkb is fairly configurable
'sfar
wat
@aclarke What are you still doing here then? :-p
@CatPlusPlus A mix of Mathematica, LaTeX and normal typing.
My modus operandi has been ‘go into keyboard options, pick the layout I want’.
user1646075
13:14
@rubenvb just the show. next, a bit of relax in front of the teev. Think I'll suggest a glass of wine...
Dead keys are annoying
Compose keys break the combo ^+{
I'd rather type codepoint numbers than use dead keys
And break ctrl+^ in Mathematica for superscript, instead resulting in the useless ².
user1646075
I'd want an APL layout in the mix too, just for old times sake. that was my first language as a 15 year old. how geeky is THAT?
13:15
So yeah, I want the console keymap in X. Which seems to be impossible.
I only went as far as Perl as line noise goes
Ell
Ell
@aclarke woah
user1646075
@Ell IBM made a PC which had it inbuilt. My dad, as an engineer, would bring it home, and leave it for a few months since it wasn't used much at work any more ;=)
FTR I only have to use dead keys for those symbols that are not common in French. All of "çéèêœùæ" I can input without a deadkey, as well as their uppercase variants. That leaves "âïüë" with a need for a dead key.
'â' is likely more frequent than 'æ' though.
user1646075
@LucDanton actually, big duhh moment here. I can fiddle with a little VM and if I mess up the keyboard horribly I can just kill it off. wonder if Virtualbox supports delta disks...
13:20
Fun fact: 'ù' only occurs in one non-proper noun in French.
@LucDanton Yeah, but then a Spanish name pops up and you need ñ as well.
Or any other random combination of accents and characters.
Also the combo + is broken (you see the backticks, don't you :-p)
@rubenvb Indeed.
user1646075
also I want to be able to put diaeresis on cooperate, vacuum, coordinate, - and get the lulz when I say diaeresis to people who ask...
So yay for dead keys, but yes, in X they suck ass.
my head hurts
user1646075
13:24
coöperate, vacuüm, coördinate. cut-n-paste ftw.
@sehe How do you sanely input IJsselmeer anyway? :)
user1646075
@LucDanton Luc, you're in the Seine part of Europe?
user1646075
boom-tish!
Well, I’m not.
@aclarke Yes
user1646075
13:28
@CatPlusPlus interesting how one project leads to sub-dependencies. Goal: extended keyboard. Step 1: learn differencing disks.
Just make a snapshot
user1646075
I have a good SuSE sitting around, so adding a diff to that should be quicker than a rebuild or even a clone, assuming the doco is clear enough. Snapshots are full clones, aren't they?
user1646075
hmmm - not exactly...
user1646075
13:33
yeah just reading. A transaction log. Nice.
Noice
user1646075
that was too easy
user1646075
@Sofffia excaaactly!
@LucDanton %s/\Z\%u0132/Ij/g
13:47
Meh... bad day. The Lounge is falling apart from internicine warfare and one of my customers has a screenful of beeping exception boxes:(
Hi @BartekBanachewicz!
if a is a rational number, then a^3 is a rational number... I have no idea how to prove or disprove it. IT should be easy, right?
user1646075
well, i have keyboard layouts swapping on ctrl-alt-k using built-in SuSE config management, but not getting any obvious compose or dead-key etc activity. I guess that's what reading is for.
@LucDanton Just capital I capital J
@corvid a³ = a times a times a. Rational numbers are closed under multiplication. QED.
whatcha mean by "closed under multiplication"?
@corvid it means "if you multiply a rational number by a rational number, you get a rational number"
It means the result of the operation acting on a member or two members of a group will result in a member of the same group.
Example: humans are closed under natural reproduction.
@MartinJames the lounge is falling apart?
Within limits of evolutionary weirdness.
Two humans reproducing will result in one (or more) humans.
user1646075
@rubenvb that's arguable.
14:01
52 secs ago, by rubenvb
Within limits of evolutionary weirdness.
@TonyTheLion hi Tony
@BartekBanachewicz hows you?
@corvid they form a semigroupoid
Ell
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz do you still do graphics stuff nowadays?
does the same apply for addition and division? eg, r+s/2
Ell
Ell
14:03
well surely by definition for division
@TonyTheLion alive. rather well.
@corvid As far as my early evening mind can still think: yes.
Ell
Ell
as long as the num & denom are rational of course, which is what you're suggesting
@Ell not a lot and not in my current job. Why?
@BartekBanachewicz good to hear
Ell
Ell
14:04
a division represents a ratio after all
@BartekBanachewicz just wondering really
I'm doing a little on android
of opengl
I see
@TonyTheLion a lil underslept, is all
same here
I want Porny The Lion back.
Where did he go?
also I think the fact that LRiO quit is fucking sad
and despite the fact he was annoying at times, we lost a valued member of our small community
10
Ell
Ell
Although ATM I'm implementing open multi methods for c++ in a terrible probably UB ridden unperformant manner
14:10
@BartekBanachewicz Let the record show I tend to agree with that sentiment.
@Mgetz It is reentering on a bad trajectory. Also, breaking news: my customer is zipping up their entire DB for me to sort out:((
Ell
Ell
I need to update my clang++ and gcc
aww shit, the US government is freaking out about exporting encryption again...
idiots
@BartekBanachewicz Nah, it's not like he quited for the first time. :D
Coliru seems to be faster after chassis swap.
14:16
@Griwes still. I think the fact that stuff like this happens might be a sign we could be doing some things in a different way.
Web dev could be so much better.
@Sofffia if everyone used Haskell. Hi jefff.
We've just ended 4-hour js debugging session
@BartekBanachewicz or maybe it's just how LRiO is.
(I am not saying I am sure of that, I am just wondering.)
user1804599
14:17
Web dev cannot be any better, because the applications are used by users.
@Griwes he's not the only one, altough I agree probably the most... radical
morning
user1804599
And users suck.
Does anyone have VS2013 installed? Do the following reproduce for you as well? coliru.stacked-crooked.com/a/7f3b92ff3a484dd6
@rightføld Could say that about all software
user1804599
14:18
Not about vapourware!
Ell
Ell
@StackedCrooked I know it kinda defeats the point but I think an offline coliru would be awesome
user1804599
Why do you think I only write vapourware?
I think turdware should be a thing
Just take something as simple as: "How, do I test this page is showing these 10 articles in this order?". How does Django solve the problem? `self.assertContains(request.body, string)`, which is extremely hard to get right.

Why can't we define a web page as a serie of widgets (that may contain other widgets) for which the implementation is HTML and CSS? "What does that solve?" you say? Now you can test Widgets and you can test the page properly without actually caring about markup and/or stylesheet.
Ell
Ell
I hate having to make a temporary folder and build script and all stuff like that every time I want to test something out
it'd be nice to just open a basic text editor, type some code and just press compile
14:19
@Ell You mean a little test project that you keep laying around for test purposes?
Ell
Ell
and the share button could upload it to coliru
I'd love to develop this idea. Maybe in a language that is a great fit for the web: Haskell.
butt no time
You guys are about Haskell kinda like I am about C++. Write all the things in Haskell!
Actually there's a C++ framework that does this widget thingy IIRC.
It's called Wet
No wait
Wt
Yup, Wt
I am going to write my own library that'll be able to output to things like html. In C++, obviously. :P
14:23
Good luck with that
Can't tell if that's sarcastic or not.
I'm not sure myself.
@MarcoA. Yep, get 1.
heh
Time to go home and cry about LRiO leaving.
See ya later gals.
14:25
@rubenvb damn msvc then, this must be a bug
@Griwes The difference is that we know Haskell and you don't (correct me if I'm wrong) :P
@MarcoA. I really do wonder how they got such a simple thing wrong.
Or if there is something I'm overlooking.
@Ell I have a little script that generates a QtCreator project in a randomly named temp folder. I only need to type cppgen in my terminal and the IDE pops up with a fresh new project. use it if you like :)‌​. you'll have to change some hard-coded paths though.
@MarcoA. Empty braces work though, although they may not do what you want.
I have a snippet for a makefile in Vim. It's also the only snippet I have. And I rarely use it.
14:29
@BartekBanachewicz I know some bits of Haskell. I am liking functional programming more and more every day. But I'd need the syntax and stuff made a little closer to the, erm, "usual" programming style. :P
My vaporlang is going there, but dunno if/when I get to something actually usable from the scraps of ideas I have right now.
:P
@rubenvb I've been looking at this too because it seemed like the most basic unit test you should try for that feature
user1804599
@Sofffia lol AJAX request for every button click
@Griwes haskell syntax is made that way to make its idioms natural. "regular" programming idioms don't translate.
@sehe that's 0, as expected
14:32
I presume you mean stuff like i.e. function call syntax.
@Marco @sehe Anyways, all the snippets are illegal as you're missing includes and std:: qualifications. <smug smiley I don't know any symbols for>
f(1,2) is useless, f(1)(2) is noisy
Yeah, my ideas don't go haskellish that far.
bartek!!!
once you go fully functional (and not "hybrid" like scala/f#/C++) you start to appreciate the syntax
14:33
@MarcoA. So, it's a codegen bug surrounding strlen on a literal. Or some UB. This is mildly interesting
I don't want to make Haskell with C++ syntax; I want to create a language somewhere in the middle, taking some little bits from both, erm, styles.
@Griwes see above.
Dunno.
We'll see.
you should try out F#.
The thing is still at an early stage of inventing silly syntaxes.
14:34
writing your own language is almost never a good answer, regardless of the question :)
@AlexM. alex!!!
@BartekBanachewicz hi :3
user1804599
Styx best language.
@sehe kinda weird, I'm trying to print the values before they get used to see if it's an optimization problem
@AlexM. sup. Been missing me? :)
user1804599
I wish Haskell had no significant indentation.
user1804599
14:35
Significant indentation is terrible.
it's annoying at times, I agree.
python ftw
python is very different from Haskell though
significant indentation is the best
(different things are being written and impacted by significant indentation)
14:36
@BartekBanachewicz Sure it is. :P
@MarcoA. Since it works if you use an empty braced-init-list {}, I don't think the {0} does what you think it does in this case. (maybe)
@Griwes The more I learn about creating languages, the more I am sure I know way too little to create one.
like Operational Semantics
It might just be setting the first element to 0, but not touch the rest.
btw, I need to make some client-side JS, and I was considering using fay for that.
I still haven't gone trough Pierce, and that's just a beginning.
@Abyx Haste might be a better choice, depending on the goal. Elaborate.
Or you know hwat
you can ask that in the haskell room, so we don't spam here
14:39
lol
@MarcoA. you should be looking at the generated code, obviously. If it's a bug, that's the give away.
Whether or not the debugger displays some crap that matches your dream world, is less relevant
not sure where he got that stuff
Who's "he"
user1804599
14:40
@BartekBanachewicz dat pun
@BartekBanachewicz well I'm just thinking about my options, in the end I need JS, so I'm choosing between coffeescript and something FP-ish like haskell
Guys (@sehe, @Marco), is it not possible MSVC is interpreting {0} as: set the first element to zero and default-initialize the rest?
this is the generated code, it's indeed just setting one 0
Isn't that what the standard says should happen?
@rubenvb Of course it is. That would be the bug
14:42
@rubenvb Nope.
@BartekBanachewicz errrr
I suppose it's not even bothering default-initializing the other stuff..
weeeeeell
ummm
@MarcoA. did you post this as a question?
oh fuck build failed
14:44
@LucDanton OK. I'm always confused about these things when arrays and aggregates appear.
@AlexM. thanks you fuck :'(
@MarcoA. default-init on an char is a no-op, as in: it has an undefined value.
@MarcoA. Not even bothering not to do anything? :)
heh
doing stuff like that is meh if I can't see your face
8.5/7, that's true, sorry :)
doesn't explain the single zero'ing anyway
Ell
Ell
14:51
@StackedCrooked cool, I'll give it a try
user1804599
@Sofffia Vim script
@MarcoA. Right, and I can never find the relevant standardese for this :-(

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