« first day (1012 days earlier)      last day (3941 days later) » 

7:00 PM
Jetpack legs.
That's what he needs.
 
Every message draft that comes to my head seems stupid or inappropriate in this case.
 
Ell
"Java sucks" - that's always appropriate
 
Did you mean:
?
 
Has anybody here used the CGAL library?
 
7:08 PM
You mean that geometry library?
 
Ell
God. I have "How Deep is Your Love" by the Bee Gees stuck in my head, it's so annoying! (youtube.com/watch?v=XpqqjU7u5Yc)
 
@EtiennedeMartel That's a new suggestion. I've had lots of things suggested to me, but never that. Interesting.
 
@Morwenn Yeah, I'm trying to find nearest surfaces to a point using a Delaunay_triangulation_3
 
@TonyTheLion didn't you watch the last batman movie? He just put on some braces and walked 5 steps then he was as good as new!
 
@jalf Hollywood. 'Nuff said. :)
 
7:14 PM
you mean they would lie about Batman? :O
 
hahahah
 
Xeo
Omg, now the help vampires are invading std-discussion
 
omg
that is a terrible question
where is the downvote button?
Just post "-1 needs more jQuery"
 
Xeo
"What would be a general, high-performance approach to this kind of problem?" - If you're really wondering how it's done in the real HPC world, it's usually done in C with raw pointers. No fancy C++ stuff like iterators or templates. That's not to say you can't do it in C++, but it's a different environment. — Mysticial 3 hours ago
@Mysticial: Most iterators break down to simple pointers.
 
I don't get how templates affect performance either since it's a compile-time thing
 
Xeo
7:21 PM
They do affect it - positively.
 
@Rapptz depending on the code and the compiler, it may cause some code bloat, and hurt the instruction cache (which is usually a very minor effect). But he didn't say "people use C and raw pointers because it is faster", jsut that people use C and raw pointers. :)
 
dat reaction
 
@TonyTheLion lol
 
@FredMcgiff ... why are you telling us?
 
Tonight... rosé wins.
 
7:24 PM
@Xeo Correct. But even pointers can be done in different ways that affect performance. In more complicated cases, incrementing multiple pointers can compile differently and run differently than using fixed base pointers with a single offset index.
 
Xeo
Whut? Really?
 
@Xeo Are you responding to me?
 
Xeo
Yeah
I got that Fred guy plonked I just noticed.
 
I just realized why we should stop helping people.
 
@Xeo Same.
 
7:26 PM
@Xeo Me too
 
@TonyTheLion And not a single fuck was given that day.
 
Did you actually helped them someday?
 
Xeo
@jalf Welcome to why we bin shit.
 
just... ask on SO. Your question is obviously far, far too long and involved for a chat room where no one really cares
 
@jalf Welcome to the realization.
 
Xeo
7:26 PM
@Morwenn I help the loungers all the time.
 
@Tuntuni exactly that :)
 
@jalf The primary issue is that there's no effective filter between people like him and people we want.
 
Correct. Suppose you have 5 different pointers which are being incremented in each loop iteration. Is it faster to increment all 5 of them? Or is it faster using a fixed index? The compiler doesn't always make the right decision.
 
@Morwenn I helped someone today!
 
9 messages moved to bin
 
Xeo
7:26 PM
And I also help people who show effort and are willing to learn
 
@Xeo That's actually quite true.
 
Xeo
@Mysticial I see.
I really enjoy it when people actually get what I'm showing them.
 
@Mysticial The single pointer has got to be faster in almost all cases, I think.
 
@Morwenn @Xeo has helped me in quite a few occasions
and others
even puppy has helped me
 
hey
 
7:27 PM
@TonyTheLion I think he helped me too, but I can't remember when.
 
@TonyTheLion Also, did you see the second top comment? "Spoiled kitties." :D
 
I help other Loungers all the time.
 
I know, I'm just teasing you :)
 
@DeadMG But sometimes, you also make newcomers cry instead.
 
@Tuntuni I don't read YT comments
 
7:28 PM
has been known to happen
usually they dumb their question link here and then cry when I downvote them
 
I've lost the patience for explaining basics.
 
@TonyTheLion Aw.
 
what I should ask or maybe said first was what what area are such errors as page fault related to or mostly caused by
so most likely it's related to a graphics issue if
Page fault error Where there is no page Fault blue screen win32k.sys
 
@DeadMG That's what I thought too. Until I actually tried it in various cases. In one of the FFT subroutines in my Pi program I found that Intel processors favored pointer increments, while AMD preferred the single index. It was weird. And the performance difference was like 20 - 30% if I picked the wrong one.
 
or when they realize that I have little intention of helping them
 
7:28 PM
Here comes the bin.
 
@Mysticial I'd have thought that the multiple-pointer case would lead to some nasty register pressure, unless they were being stored on the stack anyway.
 
@Mysticial Woah, that's crazy
 
The worst case scenario is when you ask for help on a very specific subject and random people answer you with some general stuff you already knew of years before.
 
@Mysticial more likely Intel compilers?
 
@DeadMG Yep. That's why I tried the fixed index thing in the first place.
 
7:30 PM
> compoilers
that's a thing?
 
Yeos
 
but it's funny how the computer that is viewing the other computer remotely is the one that crashes
 
@sehe It didn't matter. Neither ICC nor VS was willing to convert from pointer increments <-> fixed index when there are enough of them.
So what I wrote was what I got.
 
did you try LLVM?
 
7:31 PM
@Mysticial Wokay. Interesting to see that code and how it would fair with current day compilers, seeing that CLANG as SLP vectorization, GCC as well as MSVC have vectorization builtin
 
@DeadMG No I didn't.
 
I suggest you take it all in and enjoy the laugh.
I'm glad some people can just appreciate the irony of clear mishaps and tragic events
 
I guess the issue is that the base-index is only a provable optimization if you can prove that the pointers are always related.
 
@DeadMG The problem is that indirect memory addressing isn't always free.
 
also that.
 
7:34 PM
In some processors, it clobbers the adder unit.
 
couldn't they make an architecture where pointers weren't needed?
 
So you need to pick your poison: indirect addressing, or more pointer increments.
 
@TonyTheLion Not really, no.
 
@Mysticial I'd have to say that the other issue is that if you have more than one index- say, an array index and a field offset, then AFAIK only one can fit as an immediate.
 
7:35 PM
@TonyTheLion well, the x86 architecture doesn't have pointers. It does have memory addresses, and they happen to map very well to C and C++ pointers.
 
Most of the time, pointer increments are faster with a good compiler since there are enough free execution slots to issue the increments. But it's not a blanket rule.
 
@jalf the difference being....?
 
You could do memory addressing that doesn't map to C pointers.
 
@CatPlusPlus he's talking about x86 architecture, not C
 
@jalf but wait... I thought the hardware architecture (ie RAM and CPU separation) necessitates pointers, and so they are a direct result of that?
 
7:37 PM
@TonyTheLion No, the problem is more abstract than that.
 
I mean why do you need indirect addressing?
at the end of the day, its for efficiency reason right?
 
well, it's more than that.
 
@TonyTheLion because what else would you replace it with? You need some way to refer to chunks of data or instructions
 
there are places in the core language where things have to be mutated in place.
 
and for data to refer to other data
 
7:38 PM
a simple example is constructors.
@MooingDuck That doesn't work for non-trivially-copyable objects.
 
:10819986 how do you refer to the copy?
 
also how could you write code that makes a copy.
 
@DeadMG also doesn't work if you want to modify the source
@jalf top of the stack
 
how do you refer to the top of the stack?
or any part of the stack?
 
@jalf oh.
I think I'm getting a drift here
 
7:39 PM
@DeadMG I'm sure it's possible to design an architecture that can find the top of it's own stack without a pointer
@jalf there are counterarguments to what I said, but that's not it
 
@MooingDuck Who gives a shit about the top?
you need to be able to access all of the stack.
 
@DeadMG I'm less certaitain that's absolutely necessary (discounting performance)
 
hmmm yea pointers seem kind of hard to abolish
 
@MooingDuck Well, let's say this.
 
Be like me and ignore the existence of underlying machine.
 
7:41 PM
@TonyTheLion some languages hide them fairly well though
 
Xeo
You should not make your noop a std::function, make it auto noop = []{};. I suspect VS2012 is in the wrong here. And the canonical noop is []{} -- save ()! Or <:]{%> (the clown noop) for maximal amusement. — Yakk 12 mins ago
lol
 
if I have an element X that I want to use, and then Y happens to be above it, how do I access X?
 
Xeo
@CatPlusPlus High-level, baby.
 
@jalf yes, you can abstract it away fairly well, but that doesn't mean they don't exist
 
@TonyTheLion nods
 
7:42 PM
Pop to aux register, do operation, push aux register.
 
@CatPlusPlus So for a stack of N variables, I need N registers.
also, what am I going to do if those registers hold things I need to use to work with right now?
not to mention
 
The operation is called dip.
 
where does the "top" of the stack start and end?
 
so would you say that pointers are a necessary evil?
 
the top byte?
@TonyTheLion Pointers aren't evil.
 
7:43 PM
Also dipping that deeply into the stack is uncommon.
 
@DeadMG I was thinking of a pure stack based architecture. Not sure if it's actually viable or not. It would be complex and absurdly slow at least.
 
@DeadMG you've never encountered stack-based architectures before? (the x87 fpu is sort of a hybrid of that and a regular register-based one)
 
So no, you don't need N registers.
 
they went out of fashion for a reason though :)
 
Though aux stack might be handy.
 
7:44 PM
@DeadMG but no one likes them (if you discount C programmers), so there must be something evil about them? I mean they are error prone as fuck for sure. (that's evil no?)
 
@jalf nobody was claiming otherwise, merely that it's not impossible.
 
Xeo
@StackedCrooked Haha, that was the robot
 
@TonyTheLion I like them.
 
Xeo
"NIPPLE SALADS!" is one of the things the Psycho from Borderlands 2 says.
 
7:45 PM
@StackedCrooked Martinho
 
@TonyTheLion C pointers are shitty, because they're universally nullable and also all the UB associated with them.
 
Robot
@CatPlusPlus ah that's another view
 
The concept of a pointer/rebindable reference is not bad.
 
I want pointer salad
 
Xeo
@CatPlusPlus With monads.
 
7:45 PM
:)
 
the problem is that the C model of them is very prone to misuse, much like C's model of everything.
 
@StackedCrooked INVIGILATION
 
ah I get it now
 
but there's a reason why virtually all modern languages have pointers, even if they call them references and have garbage collection.
 
7:47 PM
I posted the question, about the page fault pc crash. here's the link if you want take a look at it stackoverflow.com/questions/17843501/…
 
and also
isn't pointers part of the fundamental description of the Turing Machine?
something about infinite numbers of bytes on a tape which can be referred to by their index?
 
Possibly
 
@DeadMG eh, sortof
 
Ell
can be referred by index?
I didn't think that was in it o.O
 
guys programming jobs make my brain hurt
 
7:50 PM
There's always money in the banana stand.
 
@DeadMG the wiki page for the turing machine seems to imply that it's not required for the tape to be able to move more than one symbol at a time, but it's complicated. I might have misunderstood...
 
@MooingDuck nah, you're right
 
@Crowz you suck
 
@CatPlusPlus That reference, I get it.
 
You better.
 
7:54 PM
pointers are a fundamental part of the von neumann machine though, which is pretty much the model our computers are designed on
 
@DeadMG "Unlike the universal Turing machine, the RASP has an infinite number of distinguishable, numbered but unbounded "registers"—memory "cells" that can contain any integer. The RASP's finite-state machine is equipped with the capability for indirect addressing; thus the RASP's "program" can address any register in the register-sequence."
 
also, how would you determine the index of a symbol on an infinite tape? :)
 
@jalf each cell holds any integer, so they're not limited in range, and thus have the same range as the number of symbols on an infinite tape
 
@MooingDuck (a) they do? I'm not sure that's the case, and (b) even so, you still need to pick a starting point on your infinite tape in order to compute indices
 
@jalf (b) "this one is the 0th" solves that pretty trivially. (A), RASP does, not certain about Turing.
 
8:00 PM
@MooingDuck The two are equivalent if the symbol tape can move in either direction without changing the tape.
 
@DeadMG and if the turing can move more than one cell at a time
 
Ell
@jalf you gotta start somewhere right? so -2,-1,0,1,2 ? (idk >.<)
 
@MooingDuck Doesn't need that.
 
@DeadMG but you're moving pretty far away from the conventional definition of a pointer. A pointer is usually taken to mean an absolute (non-relative) memory address, which can be dereferenced to access the specified memory address as a single instruction
 
@jalf The TM also includes infinite time and memory.
 
8:02 PM
The turing machine has a lot of trouble with the non-relative part (because the tape is infinite), and it can only dereference the current position, not the address read from it
@DeadMG Yes, but those do not change what a pointer is
Yes, you can convert code which uses pointers to code which would run on a turing machine, but it's still a stretch to say that turing machines "have pointers"
 
@BartekBanachewicz yeah... it's true.
 
anyway, I'm actually more interested in this: was the original turing machine really imagined as being able to store infinitely wide integers in a single cell?
 
@jalf I can't confirm :/
 
> A tape divided into cells, one next to the other. Each cell contains a symbol from some finite alphabet. The alphabet contains a special blank symbol (here written as '0') and one or more other symbols
So no infinite numbers (which also means that a cell can't hold the address of an arbitrary other cell)
which also means it's not very pointer-like
 
good to know
 
8:08 PM
yeah, you never know when that'll come in handy :p
 
Xeo
Mmmm... time for some vla
 
... are we really doing the turing thing again
 
@EiyrioüvonKauyf nah, it's a marginally different turing thing this time :)
 
never. programmers don't need turing
 
General programming question. How do you call a component whose purpose is to contain shared state across several other components?
 
user142019
8:19 PM
A maintenance hell.
 
Yeah, because you never need to share state.
 
user142019
I communicate state.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum why does a component need to contain shared state for other components?
 
@MooingDuck It contains data other components might use, and the relationship is bidirectional I guess.
 
@rightfold What was that quote you posted a while ago regarding state?
 
8:22 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum Shared Memory; or you can use pipes; or some form of interprocess derping; or there's APIs -> Rest; that was really general
 
(That is they both push data to it and post data to it)
@EiyrioüvonKauyf I was being general intentionally, but yeah. Shared Memory or Shared State seems like the obvious choices.
 
do you guys know of any sub SE forums as active as SO? :'(
 
Ell
TIL you can get MLP dolls with fleshlights in them. This makes me sad :(
 
@Borgleader "" vs <>? They look in different paths
 
Xeo
8:27 PM
@Borgleader The relative #include is from the file that's being compiled, the one in the project settings is from the project root (which you can set somewhere)
 
@Borgleader wot. try removing the last backslash maybe?
 
@Xeo also what xeo said
 
@Borgleader that disturbs me
 
Xeo
@Borgleader Also, shouldn't that be \\ instead of just \ in the #include ?
 
@MooingDuck The only difference is <> doesnt look in current directory (i found an SO post mentioning that)
@Xeo I tried using $(SolutionDir) and doing it relative from there didn't help
@Tuntuni it didnt have one at first
 
8:28 PM
@Xeo Doesn't project dir == where src files are (assuming his file really is there)?
 
Xeo
Err, no
 
@Tuntuni no
 
Xeo
project dir is where the .vcproj is
 
Yeah
hmm, let me check
 
@Tuntuni cpp files can be anywhere
 
8:30 PM
@MooingDuck Sure they can but I meant the default folder VS puts them in.
My source files are in the same folder with .vcxproj
 
@Tuntuni yes, by default, visual studio makes new cpp files in the project directory
 
@MooingDuck Yup.
> Introducing 6 Key Navigation, a way to navigate the whole file system one-handedly by just 6 keys.
I don't have 6 fingers.
N00bs, l2life.
 
I should eat, lunchtime was 1.5 hours ago
 
@MooingDuck Fuck the rules!
 
srsly. I'm busy coding! go away lunchtime1
 
8:33 PM
Don't eat me! :(
@Jerry Get in here, quick!!
 
@ScottW he hasn't posted in 5 hours on SO: stackoverflow.com/users/179910/jerry-coffin?tab=activity
 
He meant Jerry Coffin? Don't we have another Jerry? Or was that Jeffrey?
:o
 
@Tuntuni Jeffrey
 
You tricked me
 
@Tuntuni easily done apparently
 
8:37 PM
@MooingDuck :C
 
user142019
> Don't communicate by sharing, share by communicating.
 
@rightfold Ahh, yes, that one.
 
user142019
I.e. send messages rather than modifying shared variables and using mutexen and bringing yourself closer to suicide.
 
@Tuntuni ...
 
@Jeffrey :p I kept reading it wrong it seems xD
 
user142019
8:40 PM
R. Jerry Coffin
 
user142019
r. ightfold
 
I have to go in a disco pub and I have a terrible headache. Fuck me.
Oh wait.
Oh God.
 
@Jeffrey the internet is a dangerous place for those who aren't careful
 
Thanks god north of italy is a broad description
 
I think that the location he gave was vague enough.
 
8:45 PM
Yeah
 
really?
 
lol
 
I always felt it to be more in your style to be shouting "Where's my buttbuddy? My prostate is itching!"
 
@ScottW what's going on.
 
@ScottW See you there then
 
8:48 PM
ITT: Scott whores up the entire goddamn Lounge
 
PSA Everyone a tap on the shoulder for being excellent in ignoring the trolls today.
@ScottW Buy a decent mobile :/ Yeah. Some of them. Never mind. What's going on ?! :) (mostly rhetorical anyways)
@DeadMG: this is indeed not the standard dichotomic search for a given key, but a search for the partitioning index; it requires a single compare per iteration. But don't rely on this code, I have not checked it. If you are interested in a guaranteed correct implementation, let me know. — Yves Daoust 13 mins ago
lol
@ScottW It is. On android tablet, it's ok
(of course, not the mobile variant. Please god, no)
 
why don't you guys like me
 
@Jeffrey based on a huge amount of speculation and wild extrapolation I decided you're most likely near Coco Beach 25017 Lonato del Garda, Brescia, Italy
@Jeffrey roughly how much did I miss by? 150km?
 
Why are you doing this again?
lol
 
nice
make a post on meta. No text, just that picture
title: "self explanatory"
 
8:57 PM
The answer will be "use mobile version".
 

« first day (1012 days earlier)      last day (3941 days later) »