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2:00 PM
So much pedant.
 
@ThePhD Comes with the territory.
 
sbi
@thecoshman 'twas just a match among friends. (The Merkin's coach was the boss of the German's coach until 2006. IN an interview afterwards they told that they had spend the evening before the match sitting together and talking.)
@yiz Well, Labours day sounds like a good day to give birth, don't you think?
 
@sbi googles "merkin"
4
dafuq
 
Obviously, mermaid kin.
 
2:04 PM
@ThePhD You wish.
(image google it)
 
yiz
that's the thing, labour's day is usually the day on which people usually do not work, it is like an anti-labour day
 
...
 
yiz
but suits my mother just well
 
WHY ARE THERE VAGINA BUSHELS ON MY SCREEN
6
 
yiz
had labour and delivered me
 
yiz
but suited my mother just well
 
I don't even like UNDERSTAND. WHY?!
hwajkdhawdjwdhawjkd Where does this association even COME FROM.
 
We broke him.
 
sbi
@yiz I think you failed to decipher my pun on labour pain. :-/
 
Xeo
2:07 PM
Don't bother, Ape
Also, hi
 
sbi
@ThePhD Can't you read?
> Then "merkin" was coined afresh to mean "an American", because it sounds a bit like the half-swallowed pronunciation of "American" by some Americans, particularly President Lyndon Johnson; and the fact that it had a "naughty" meaning didn't hurt. — alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxmerkin.html
 
@yiz On a less disturbing note, happy birthday. Literally.
@sbi =[ I wish I knew that before I googled
 
yiz
@sbi but we don't have holidays to celebrate the pain ...
we celebrate whatever worth celebrating! & of course it is not me ... :p
@ThePhD my birthday is on the 3rd Oct, so you are wishing either a very late last birthday or a very early next one :p
 
sbi
@Xeo Why shouldn't I bother? And about what? Also, lo.
 
Xeo
2:13 PM
@sbi yiz. Long-term troll.
 
it's a perfect answer on its own.
 
sbi
@Xeo Oh. Is that the one I used to have in my killfile, who came back under a new disguise?
 
Xeo
Telkitty
 
sbi
@Xeo Dats der bunny!
 
yiz
sbi knew
 
sbi
2:15 PM
Maybe I used to know. There's a difference.
 
yiz
OMG Ape, such a short memory?
I think you have been told at least 3 times who I am ... selective memory loss ?
 
@sbi oh, well it's nice to see sports teams getting along
@Xeo not a troll at all. just grates a lot of regulars, but I do not think there is any intent
 
@Luc I find template<...> struct foo in the same line extremely hard to read :<
@thecoshman Want me to quote express statements of such intent?
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes I use it for seq in toy snippets only, pretty much
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes will it be horribly out of context?
 
2:18 PM
And you are not even consistent!
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes me?
 
No, Luc.
@thecoshman Actually, it would be somewhat difficult to search for that since the user was deleted and now chat search cannot search for it...
 
sbi
BTW, today I came in very early to drop my laptop at the admin's desk where I had taken it. I had made an image of the disk last night, so I would have a chance to attempt to get at my data later.
When I looked later, the other two admins were there. So I asked them about what they know about NTFS encryption. They asked why, so I told them I have a backup at home (which I now indeed have), but cannot access it. And, guess what! They were cooperative, and tried to help me.
Of course, first we jumped through most of the hoops I had already been through, but I didn't want to discourage them. :) In the end I borrowed a machine that's identical to my old one, and we put in my old disk. Plus they gave me an external USB3.0 drive. Now I am finally copying the whole thing.
 
oh well that's good
 
Xeo
gratz
 
2:22 PM
to be fair, they are probably constrained by bullshit as much as devs are
 
how can a non-negative number% a non-negative number be negative?
 
@Pawnguy7 nice
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes either way, I am sure if she explicitly said she was just trying to troll people, in context she was only saying that at the moment she was trying to annoy people. To be fair, I really do have no problem with her, now that she refrains from oneboxing every images she finds like a 7 year old
@Pawnguy7 huh?
 
sbi
@thecoshman Yes, they are constrained. (As I had explained before, our small company's IT runs under a bigger company's umbrella.) But there's no good reason the guy couldn't have handed me the drive on Friday afternoon for me to start trying. That was pure bad fuck-off-attitude.
 
@Pawnguy7 pics or it didn't happen
 
2:24 PM
@thecoshman He used the modulo operator %
 
@Pawnguy7 q = trunc(D/d) and r = D - dq
 
I am illiterate of math such as that :D
 
@sbi well, our IT department are just working as contractors. They could be constrained to a policy where they are not allowed to do much more then liaise between the company you work for and the IT contractors
@ShotgunNinja oh
 
@Pawnguy7 D is dividend, d is divisor, r is remainder, q is quotient and trunc is the truncation function (i.e. "round towards zero")
 
"Positive % Positive = Negative?"
 
2:26 PM
I am going to double check the inputs.
It must be that.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes You'd think dq could never be larger than D - except for floating inaccuracies, maybe
 
@Xeo Ugh, that would be a terrible implementation.
Using FP math for integer division?
 
Maybe somehow my list has an anti-element and thus a negative size...
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes fmod()
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes No but really, how else could that happen?
 
sbi
2:28 PM
@thecoshman They have a SATA-to-USB adapter readily on their desk. (I used that today.) All he had to do was put that damn disk in there, hand me the thing, and say "I'm sorry I can't do this for you, but I'm too busy and you'd be sitting beside me twiddling your thumbs anyway." That would have gotten me started on Friday, rather than stealing borrowing that machine over the weekend and then spending my precious private time on it.
 
Why not fmod()?
 
@ShotgunNinja That's not an integer division function (only incidentally if you pass in values that happen to be integers)
 
sorry, was going off of your post earlier where you mention using FP math.
Got confused.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes my rss reader is being really annoying, it does not show your feed as having new things, but if I manually check that feed they are there. royal pain in the arse
 
I think what we need is a code sample, and SSCCE to test.
 
2:34 PM
@sbi So you're bored-busy today?
 
oh, how's that FTB server that sehe was hosting going? I take it you where on it @xeo
 
@thecoshman Put to sleep IIRC
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes oh, people got bored of it did they?
 
You can play Minecraft only for so long
 
I'm confused by boost/std::bind.
 
2:36 PM
To be honest, it was the first time I tried Minecraft MP and I found it rather dull and not much better than SP.
 
The return type is a type T for which std::is_bind_expression<T>::value == true.
Now if you want to declare a variable of the return type of std::bind the only option I see is std::function.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes you not a fine of MC any way? I find with my server, it is mostly like SP, but it's nice that I have a few friends that I can interact with.
 
That's just a magic marker for making nested binds work.
 
FTB was too complicated and I didn't feel like manual diving
 
@Nils Yes, either that or auto.
 
2:38 PM
Why does bind not simply return std::function.
 
So it got boring after killing Zoidberg few times
 
Xeo
@Nils Why should it?
 
@Nils Why should it?
 
@CatPlusPlus oh it's that for sure :P
 
@Nils Because then you couldn't do bind expressions
 
2:38 PM
Is auto an actual type, or just a placeholder to tell the compiler "you know that type I'm not going to repeat it"
 
Xeo
@CatPlusPlus I kinda enjoy watching LPs on it, but working with it yourself... ugh.
 
@Nils Latter.
 
What's a bind expression?
 
Look at operator overloads
 
Xeo
Something for which std::is_bind_expression<T>::value == true :P
 
2:39 PM
heh
 
what I like about ftb though is that for the most part, if you do not want to play with a mod, you can ignore it. Of course you have a lot of extra ores and biomes that could get in the way, but I think they add a lot with out asking anything from you
 
and if I use boost::signals
what is the exact type connect expects?
 
2 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
That's just a magic marker for making nested binds work.
@Nils Either it's a template and accepts any callable, or it takes a type-erased boost::function. I hope the former.
 
probably a template
 
Xeo
@Nils Tip: Don't care about exact types, care about interfaces.
 
2:42 PM
It's type-erased
 
> Rule Of Thumb: If your code isn't designed to be reusable (...) it shouldn't be throwing exceptions (...).
2
What do you think of that?
 
so the interface is simply
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Bullshit
 
template class T
 
Xeo
2:44 PM
@Nils No, the interface is "is callable with these arguments".
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Your code should always throw exceptions if it makes sense.
 
How do ppl actually read files like functional?
 
Xeo
Using my eyes.
 
With eyes
 
@EtiennedeMartel "Rule Of Thumb: If your code isn't designed to be reusable it doesn't make sense to throw exceptions."
 
2:45 PM
@Nils Why do you read standard headers?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Define "reusable".
 
@EtiennedeMartel Meh, if you don't want to answer you don't have to.
 
@CatPlusPlus Slowcat.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I need more information before I can actually answer.
 
Xeo
@EtiennedeMartel Because it's fun and very educational!
 
2:46 PM
It's right there with "exceptions are for ~~~~EXCEPTIONAL~~~~ situations only"
 
Humm guess I have some more reading to do
 
Exceptions lead to bloat.
 
Rule of thumb: use exceptions when you need recoverable flow interruptions
It's the best you can do without monadic expressions anyway
 
Why do you always have to bring up monads?
 
Because they're relevant to error propagation
 
2:47 PM
Because they are always relevant and often better solutions and you monadlergics suck.
 
Xeo
@EtiennedeMartel Because they're awesome.
 
Alright, alright, I get it.
That won't make me learn Haskell, though.
This week on "Etienne's Funky Work": drag and drop from WPF to OLE back to WPF.
 
Sucks to be you
 
I'm not gonna survive this.
 
bah exceptions
 
2:54 PM
@Luc I think I'm going to steal your range design. It has several fundamental differences from Boost.Range that make it non-sucky (the fact that the range interface is not begin()/end(), period, changes the whole game). What don't you like about it?
My design will be a painful as heck to get right with GC.
 
Xeo
s/with/without/?
 
> This parameter is reserved and must be NULL.
3
Oh, Windows.
 
Lul.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Bullshit.
 
3:02 PM
Hm.
Well.
 
So, now I have to scratch this rewrite. Branches FTW.
 
I think I need to use unions, here.
 
My guess: you don't.
 
so what is Luc's range design?
 
I also know convincing you otherwise will be a worthless waste of time.
 
3:02 PM
I could use boost::variant
Basically, I need to not use polymorphism and have a class that can have either
std::vector<TranslationKey> translationkeys;
std::vector<ScaleKey> scalingkeys;
std::vector<RotationKey> rotationkeys;
// or
std::vector<MatrixKey> transformkeys;
 
@ThePhD I'd put at least 10:1 odds that variant is only one tiny babystep along the several-kilometer distance from "union" to "decent design".
 
boost::variant's invariants might work a whole lot better for me here though.
@JerryCoffin Well, I don't know how else to solve the problem other than with unions or variant. :c
 
(or something else you already discarded from the onset)
 
One way is to make a virtual interface and then inherit it, but now I've taken something that's mostly a compile-time deal and turned it into a run-time deal.
 
Unions and variant are not compile-time deals.
 
3:07 PM
Oh. Well then.
Maybe I could use private implementation and CRTP?
 
You cannot make it a compile-time deal unless it is.
@ThePhD What does private implementation mean? Pimpl?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah. I think.
 
That's runtime.
 
:c
 
Why do you think this decision can be made at compile time?
(Hint: if it can, you want two different types, not one; that's how make compile-time decisions)
 
3:08 PM
@ThePhD Lacking specific evidence to the contrary, this is probably what you want. In particular, if you're likely to deal with a collection where any given instance might be one or the other, you're going to have to sort it out at run-time, in which case, inheritance/virtual function is almost certainly the right way to go.
 
Mmm... Well. =[
 
The primary alternative is that you can create two separate collections, one dealing with each type-- at which point the whole variant/union situations just disappears completely.
 
@ThePhD Why?
 
@CatPlusPlus Let me correct myself: I was trying to do it without polymorphism.
... Trying, anyways. :c
 
What are you trying to do, exactly
 
3:11 PM
Too much.
 
What you described is polymorphism
 
I have skeletal animations. They can either be made out of 3 vectors into a matrix (translation, rotation, scaling), or it can be a bunch of precalculated matrix keys (just transforms).
 
"I need a type that has several forms"
What do you think polymorphism is
 
@ThePhD Can't you just normalize everything to matrices?
 
@ThePhD My advice: start with a base class and polymorphism. It's the obvious way that will work. If (and only if) you find that it causes a real problem sometime do you write more complex code in an attempt at optimization. Chance are it'll never arise though.
 
3:13 PM
So you don't need several container types, you just need several ways to create one container type
Also yeah runtime dispatch is just fine
(But you don't need any of this still)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes It's because they're key-values (Time in Seconds, Value at Time). I can't melt them down or I lose the keyframes (which are of translation, scale, and rotation). In the opposite case, only get matrix-based keyframes, so I save those keyframes instead.
 
AFAIK transforms carry strictly more information than the separate vectors, so using them exclusively seems perfectly fine.
 
Whoops
 
@ThePhD Why can't you melt them?
You only lose the keyframes if you do it wrong.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I wouldn't know where to melt them down. The keyframes have different times. Scale in a lot of these animations has only 1 keyframe, while translation and rotation have 20 keyframes each. I have no idea where I'd evaluate the matrix and "melt" the three separate keys into one timeline.
 
3:16 PM
Erm.
At the smallest step used.
 
My first guess is just doing it additively: evaluate the whole matrix for the unique union of all the keyframes, and then use those as the keyframes.
 
How do you expect to handle this type, if the two forms are not equivalent?
 
Exactly.
Sort all keyframe times. Those are all your new keyframe times for transforms.
 
Hm. Well, I guess I can do that.
 
For each of those new times, compute the resulting transform.
 
3:18 PM
Throw away all the other stuff...
I hope it still blends the same.
@CatPlusPlus At the very last step, is when I do { ~~Fancy Math~~ } to turn all keyframes into a single matrix for that bone at a given time frame.
 
I assume if you use the same interpolation process as you would when animating you get the same result.
 
I guess pre-calculating it can't hurt...
 
@ThePhD So you do the same thing for all keyframes.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah. Sort of.
My only thing is I'm.... ... not sure, uh. How I'm supposed to interpolate 2 transformation matrices.
 
if you don't know that how the feck could you ever do skeletal animation?
 
3:20 PM
...
 
for translation, it'd be fine to do it for each component of the matrix, but, uh. ... What about rotation and scale?
 
A transform is a transform. Why care about special cases?
 
Mm... I guess I'll do it component-wise.
If it works, Yay. :D
UNIONS ALL THE KEYFRAMES.
 
Xeo
Shouldn't one use quaternions for rotation interpolation? I remember reading something about that.
 
I won't be surprised if the result is hilarious.
 
3:22 PM
union {
    std::set<double> rotationtimes;
    std::set<double> translationtimes;
    std::set<double> scaletimes;
} // <3
 
@Xeo A matrix transform carries more information than a quaternion.
@ThePhD Wut
WTF
That's a joke, right?
 
Hee. I'm just messing with you guys. x3
Would be cool if you could do zany stuff like that, though.
 
do like, union { stuff1, stuff2, stuff3 } and just get a list of unique values.
 
That's a set...
 
3:24 PM
er, that's a set
 
I meant like, as a language-construct
 
no, it would be terrible
 
being able to do things like disjoint( stuff, moreStuff ) and get a type of stuff that was a disjoint set or something
 
Especially since you have std::initializer_list<std::set<double>>...
@ThePhD That's a library thing.
 
Help, my code is yelling at me.
 
3:26 PM
I guess I'll write a library for it. <3
@EtiennedeMartel LPFNOLEDATASTRUCT ?
 
STDMETHODIMP
 
monad::join({ set1, set2, set3 }) Done!
 
And then the usual DWORD, BOOL and E_NOTIMPL.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes You and your monads. :c
 
Xeo
@ThePhD std::set_difference, std::set_union, std::set_intersection ...
 
3:27 PM
@Xeo :O those are real functions?
 
@Xeo That's for non-sets.
(Yes, C++ is fucked up)
 
@ThePhD Since C++98.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes What?
 
:lol:
 
Xeo
Well fuck, but it can be used for sets
 
3:28 PM
So, I think I've learned my lesson.
All my times are stored in doubles.
Which means I'll maintain perfect precision for millenia.
 
@Xeo Hmm, I actually thought std::set had optimized member functions for that...
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Monads!
 
You learned a lesson
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Not that I know
 
Next lesson: floating points suck
 
Xeo
3:29 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Also, std::set_stuff expects strictly-weak ordered input
The only non-set stuff is that the elements may exist multiple times within one range
 
@CatPlusPlus They do. :c I'm only using them for step values now in update functions.
Most of my vector stuff is based on Float math, though, so unless I constrain my values carefully I'll start bleeding precision everywhere.
 
@Xeo Yeah, but it cannot remove stuff from the set (i.e. you need a new one). And erase-remove doesn't really work with those.
 
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: Welcome to the Monadic Hell. [c++] [c++11] [c++-faq] [no-helpdesk]
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Meh, mutation :P
 
you know
it's a strange feeling, but I just realized that I really don't care that much anymore about having the highest-quality code possible
11
 
Xeo
3:31 PM
@EtiennedeMartel s/Hell/Heaven/
 
ITT puppy sucks.
In two weeks: ThePhD is berating the puppy for crappy code.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Just ITT?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Things change.
 
hey
my code's bad, it's not ThePhD bad
 
@DeadMG Writing high-quality code takes time and effort and sometimes I just want something quick and dirty. >_>
I JUST WANT MY BURGER AND FRIES.
 
I also realized today there are a bunch of bugs in Wide w.r.t. return statements.
you'd be surprised, but LLVM is amazingly bitchy about returning.
 
3:35 PM
I stopped caring too
Esp for code with deadlines
 
@ThePhD That's a really good analogy, actually.
 
The key is definitely knowing when to do what… I'm never gonna be "that guy" who hands off a pile o' shit he can't handle any more and says, "please add just a couple features"
 
@DeadMG finally you are ready for industry :P
 
yeah
 
Ugh, I did some commits on the iterators-must-go branch that should have been on master.
 
3:40 PM
imagine me in job interview
"Look at how crap my code is, isn't it great?!"
 
Industry is a secret plot to generate as much shit as possible and make everyone miserable with it
 
s/ secret//
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Move them
 
@ShotgunNinja I know. Unfortunately I'm still not fat. q_q
I should eat more burgers and fries.
 
Unfortunately?
 
3:42 PM
unfortunately I'm still taking a lifetime to write clean readable useful code that isn't quick and dirty and nasty.
I'm still muching on salads when I could be having double pounder angus beef texas roast burgers. :c
 
Ell
Why does floating point suck? o.O
 
@Ell The Universe is a bitch.
 
@Ell Because of the fear factor surrounding poor implementations of IEEE 754.
the FDIV bug on Intel processors lended more credibility to it as well.
The Pentium FDIV bug was a bug in the Intel P5 Pentium floating point unit (FPU). Intel said there were a few missing entries in the lookup table used by the company. The error was discovered by Professor Thomas R. Nicely at Lynchburg College, Virginia, USA. The error was rarely encountered by users (Byte magazine estimated that 1 in 9 billion floating point divides with random parameters would produce inaccurate results). However, both the flaw and Intel's initial handling of the matter were heavily criticized. Intel ultimately recalled the defective processors. Chronology Professor Th...
 
Uh what fear factor
FDIV bug is ancient history
 
Ell
I get the impression a lot of people think floating point calculations aren't deterministic or well defined
Which is wrong, isn't it?
 
3:46 PM
@CatPlusPlus Not gonna be easy (they should have been in two steps: i.e. change master and then merge on branch and fix repercussions on feature code) :(
 
@Ell It's deterministic, but the way it actually ends up is surprising and there's a lot of implementation-defined ways to handle it.
 
For example, round-tripping floats through various values can degrade the hell out of it.
 
Ell
@EtiennedeMartel Looks like it: "This feature enables applications to protect their own onscreen window content from being captured or copied through a specific set of public operating system features and APIs"
 
3:48 PM
Lol.
Gotta stop that PrintScreen, clearly.
 
Ell
"

It is important to note that unlike a security feature or an implementation of Digital Rights Management (DRM), there is no guarantee that using SetWindowDisplayAffinity and GetWindowDisplayAffinity, and other necessary functions such as DwmIsCompositionEnabled, will strictly protect windowed content, for example where someone takes a photograph of the screen."
It's not DRM! It doesn't stop photos from being taken!
 
Roflmao.
 
@Ell I would suppose the primary usage would be some kind of protection against malware.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I thought it was to help prevent people using screen recording software...
 
Ell
3:50 PM
I guess nobody would use a screen capture to copy films etc.
that would be pretty silly :3
 
Of course it would...
 
Why do you think HDCP encrypts the data stream between GPU and display :v:
 
Ell
What would malware do with a screen capture? You can't see passwords. I guess you could get a list of sites they visit, or usernames
 
Establish habits, gather compromising information
 
@Ell You can't see passwords only on goddamn stupid sofware.
Fuck you password entry fields that don't have a "show password" option.
Thank you for taking away my ability to identify and correct typos.
 
3:53 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes I thought robots never made mistakes.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes nah, just use a really simple password that you can't get wrong
 
@thecoshman ...
 
Ell
heh
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes ... joke
 
Though of late, I think pageant is the only thing I use that has that annoying crap.
I guess I could download the source and fix it.
 
3:55 PM
Evening fellas
 
@EtiennedeMartel wait wut?
 
@TonyTheLion Evening
 
How are ya?
 
Ell
@TonyTheLion Evenin'
 
@CatPlusPlus HDCP?
 
3:57 PM
@TonyTheLion still coughing up my lungs
 
High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection (HDCP; commonly, though incorrectly, referred to as High-Definition Copy(right) Protection) is a form of digital copy protection developed by Intel Corporation to prevent copying of digital audio and video content as it travels across connections. Types of connections include DisplayPort (DP), Digital Visual Interface (DVI), and High-Definition Multimedia Interface (HDMI), as well as less popular, or now defunct, protocols like Gigabit Video Interface (GVIF) and Unified Display Interface (UDI). The system is meant to stop HDCP-encrypted content fro...
@thecoshman :(
 
@TonyTheLion your self?
 
@thecoshman I'm alright, got work done today, mostly because I'm no longer logged into the Lounge at work
 

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