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10:00 PM
2.5hr drive
damn, that was long
 
user142019
Oh php.net redesign.
 
user142019
About time.
 
meh php
 
user142019
I have to use it because this terrible webhost doesn't offer PHP.
 
@CatPlusPlus Geeze -- even in writing I'd have thought that sarcasm would be obvious to anybody and everybody, but I guess not.
 
user142019
10:02 PM
Luckily it's only for sending email.
 
user142019
I use Jekyll for everything else.
 
@CatPlusPlus Seems to me the reality is that you simply haven't thought things through very carefully. In reality, "bignum" isn't really a type at all. It's a (nearly) infinite variety of different types, where smaller types can be (and are) implicitly converted to larger types completely outside your control. It just happens that implicit widening it so innocuous that you never notice or care.
 
Implementation details, not very relevant to the type system.
 
@CatPlusPlus Not really. The irrelevance (to the extent it exists at all) is due, as already stated, to the fact that widening conversions are so innocuous that you can ignore then (but your choice to ignore them doesn't mean they don't exist or happen -- merely the implicit widening really and truly can be done implicitly without causing a problem).
Simply put, you're in roughly the position of a Muslim extremist who insists that electricity doesn't exist because it's not in the Koran.
 
10:17 PM
I like when my types don't change behind my back thank you very much.
 
@CatPlusPlus You've made it pretty clear that you're quite comfortable with it, and ignore it completely -- to the extent you treat an (essentially) infinite group of types as one, because implicit widening just doesn't cause a problem.
 
IC make language rules more complicated, reasoning about code harder (esp in type-inferred environment, where you don't label every goddamn variable with types PRECISELY because types can be easily deduced PARTIALLY because there are no implicit conversions), and you still haven't demonstrated any tangible problem with lack of them (other than very very very rarely you might need to apply widening explicitly — which also means your code is probably not generic enough).
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I did laundry yesterday. It was fun. <3
 
@JerryCoffin Ugh, yes, appending an element to a list is a widening conversion with that logic too. Note that we're not talking about dependent typing here (where btw implicit conversions don't happen either).
 
@CatPlusPlus You still don't get it do you? The reality is that Haskell does implicit widening all the fucking time. Every time you use a bignum, you're really dealing with an infinite variety of types. You just don't care, because implicit widening doesn't cause a single, solitary problem like you're claimning.
 
10:20 PM
See above.
Values don't determine types. Badly worded.
 
@CatPlusPlus I saw it. It's clear you haven't a clue yet.
 
:cripes: Fine.
 
ponies
 
@CatPlusPlus It's really not, but I guess trying to change it is probably impossible -- but I'll give one last try. Think about the difference between (say) char and int in C++. Assume the typical definitions of 8 bits for char and 32 for int. Now think about, say, a 20 digit bignum in Haskell vs. a 200000 digit one. At what fundamental level do these differ so much that the former are two separate types, but the latter are not?
 
Domains.
 
10:28 PM
@CatPlusPlus Incorrect, to the extent that it's meaningful.
 
Domain of bignum is ℤ, and how many bits the value has is not important from the type level viewpoint.
I don't even care that there are bits, they're incidental.
Widening conversion changes the domain — domain of bignum never changes, no matter what value it takes.
 
@CatPlusPlus Domain of bignum is some subset of Z, limited (at most) by available storage -- but in most cases, to something smaller than that. Other than a much larger limit, it's absolutely, positively, identical in every possible way to a char.
 
I don't think even dependent typing makes note of bitsizes in general.
Forget about the machine.
 
@CatPlusPlus Of course not -- because implicit widening is completely innocuous, so its irrelevant.
 
It's identical in that it can take any value from its domain.
But ugh this is going nowhere.
 
10:32 PM
@CatPlusPlus Are you so misguided that you think int can't take any value from its domain?
 
So w/e.
@JerryCoffin Never said that.
 
/derail
 
You're the one arguing that assigning a value to bignum is a widening conversion.
And trying to prove with that that widening conversions at type level are good or something, and I don't know, ignoring complications that arise from enabling them apparently.
And I'm not talking about data loss or whatever.
Widening conversions are safe, that's not the point.
 
@CatPlusPlus You did say that "it can take any value from its domain" as if it actually meant something.
 
I don't know what else to say so w/e.
 
10:36 PM
@CatPlusPlus I want it on record that I really tried, but just couldn't resist. You seem pretty clear about what you're not talking about. Unfortunately, you equally clearly don't know what you are talking about.
 
Whatever.
 
Widening conversions doesn't necessarily imply that you allow all kinds of implicit conversions.
Allowing at least widening conversions at compile-time for integers type isn't a bad thing, I think.
 
@JerryCoffin I've seen you so furiously argue with someone.
 
@TonyTheLion I'm guessing there was meant to be a "never" there. Just for the record, I'm not (even close to) furious though. Smiling at the moment, to be honest. The reality is, that I think there's really just a mismatch in levels of abstraction. Haskell (like Smalltalk, most Lisps, etc.) operates at a fairly high level of abstraction. Viewing C and C++ from a similar level of abstraction, signed char, short, int, long and long long are all really exactly the same type.
 
right. I see what you're saying
 
10:46 PM
Likewise, the unsigned versions are all really the same types as each other. The only difference between them is the range of values they support. There's no fundamental difference at all.
Given that they all really are the same type, implicit widening conversions between them aren't really type conversions at all -- they're just changes in representation.
 
right
well, with this I'm off to bed
 
If you want to look at it from the other direction you can do that too: you can insist that because short is two bytes, and long is four, that they're really and truly separate types -- but if you do that, different sizes of bignums are different types in just the same way.
@TonyTheLion G'night.
 
@CatPlusPlus There's no difference between a bignum and a sum type for all possible integer sizes. It's not the same thing at all.
and FTR, I agree with @Cat that assigning to a bignum is not a widening conversion, but nor is it really the same thing at all as a fixed-size integer.
an arbitrary-sized integer is a dynamically sized component, and a fixed-size integer isn't.
 
It strikes me as a little inconsistent (at best) to decide that one type is determined by concrete representation, but the other isn't.
 

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