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3:00 PM
Modern C++ Design?
 
sbi
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's Modern C++ Design.
 
@sbi Yes, and it's what he meant.
 
@sbi Alexandrescu's book, Modern C++ Design.
 
yiz
I would love to see a book on : "C design patterns"
 
See? My mind-reading abilities are still sharp.
 
sbi
3:00 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes We were, however, talking about Accelerated C++, @Jerry.
 
@sbi Yeah, I am confused about that too.
 
yiz
better still: HTML design patterns
seriously there are people who use design patterns when design their systems?
 
sbi
@yiz Isn't the whole point of patterns to lift the code from the language's claws to something higher?
@yiz There's Gamma et. al., for a starter.
:)
 
@sbi Sorry -- my mistake. Somehow I misread things as a discussion of Modern C++ Design having started.
 
> I’ll begin with what many of you will find an unredeemably damning confession: I have not written production software in over 20 years, and I have never written production software in C++. Nope, not ever. Furthermore, I’ve never even tried to write production software in C++, so not only am I not a real C++ developer, I’m not even a wannabe.
 
3:02 PM
@JerryCoffin Ah. lol
 
whoa
 
@Rapptz Where's that from?
 
Scott Meyer's list of books thing.
 
Ah.
Yeah, he just writes books and teaches C++.
 
sbi
@JerryCoffin Ok, then this explains the confusion. @l46kok, he wasn't talking about the book we talked about, so just forget about his opinion.
 
3:03 PM
@sbi Even when I do happen to discuss the same thing, my opinion is probably best ignored... :-)
 
alright
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I find that a bit strange :D
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes true. but then I like to fly in the face of common sense and use new anyway, oh what a rebel I am
 
@Rapptz Yeah, especially since he doesn't write crap.
 
@thecoshman oh you
 
sbi
3:05 PM
@Rapptz That's certainly true, but then he does consulting, so he keeps being dragged into real professional C++ software development. Not as much as those of us who earn their income doing it, though.
@JerryCoffin You know, I was deliberately not writing this, even though it certainly occurred to me.
 
@TonyTheLion it's noting..... new (⌐■_■)
 
@sbi Probably pretty close though. Talking to him in person, he once said about half his time was dealing directly with code, but also that he typically works around 70-80 hours a week.
 
sbi
@thecoshman You seem to confuse "rebels" with "backwards barbarians".
 
man too many pointers on my screen :/
 
3:07 PM
@sbi oh shh you :P
 
yiz
I love it when your interviewers ask you about design patterns, you mumble something, they were like "okay". It shows that they themselves do not thoroughly understand design patterns. But they expect you to understand it, because that apparently gives your 'superior' coding styles :x
 
Yeah, the rebels are not backwards barbarians. They have X-wing fleets and shit.
 
@TonyTheLion as in 'a'?
 
as in int* p
 
@sbi Is that really "backwards barbarians" or "moronic luddites"?
 
3:08 PM
@TonyTheLion (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
 
sbi
@JerryCoffin I can easily imagine him working so much. He rarely ever wrote a mail to me before 9pm and usually accompanies them with a note that he had promised his wife to be available an hour or two ago, but got caught up in some interesting coding issue. I have no idea how much consulting involving coding he really does, though.
 
oh no! flickr changed their website. now my downloader will be broken as hell :(
 
sbi
@melak47 Can someone please summon the Indifferent Puppy to make his statement about airborne fornications?
 
@sbi a) I know what it means jack ass b) and just about able to grasp the concept of copy and paste
 
yiz
C++ should have keywords like "initialize once"
 
3:11 PM
@yiz ... for what?
 
yiz
for global variables you declare:
 
sbi
@JerryCoffin I was using what's called an "euphemism". (We can safely use that word here, as the pirate won't know it and will have no chance looking it up, because he'd never type it right.)
 
It has. Shut up.
 
@sbi but I give a flying fuck :p
 
@melak47 welp, as long as some one does, I don't have to
 
sbi
3:12 PM
@thecoshman Now you only need to graps the concept of "answering to the right statement". :)
 
yiz
ObjectA objectA initialize once; // then you do not have do if (!objectA) new ObjectA(); If the code runs 1000 times, the if is tested 1000 times which should only run once
 
@sbi sigh...
 
@sbi My father taught me a dislike of euphemisms. When I was a child, and somebody used "passed on" (for example) he'd tell me (just loudly enough for everybody to overhear) "that means he's dead."
11
 
sbi
@melak47 So?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Haven't done much hobby coding in the last few weeks. I am still building primitives as needed for ogonek, anyway, so I don't have any expectations of it being usable for anything in general right now.
 
3:13 PM
@sbi oh wait! you cheeky sod!
 
sbi
@JerryCoffin I think I like your father.
 
@yiz Yes. Learn some C++.
 
Ell
@yiz What o.o
 
That should be on the std-proposals forum: "Steps for posting here: 1. Learn C++"
 
Ell
C++ already does that
 
sbi
3:14 PM
@yiz Are you even aware that you're in a (roughly) C++-themed chat room?
 
@yiz yeah... C++ already has that sort of feature... it's called C++
 
Ell
ObjectA myobject; <- Is initialised on the stack... once.
 
sbi
@thecoshman What's wrong with my cheeks?
 
yiz
@Ell global variable does not sit on stack
 
Ell
Oh global variables.
But they are still initialized
 
3:15 PM
Global variables are not initialised twice.
 
sbi
@Ell ...once.
 
People that have learned C++ know that.
 
Ell
@sbi yeah :P
 
@yiz you did not mention stack/heap, you only question initialisation, and globals are still initialised just once
 
Maybe she meant that C++ needs an "initialise twice" keyword.
You know, for those cases where you need things to be initialised twice.
 
3:17 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes and can't spare the memory for a second object
and don't need the first object
 
Who the fuck added back? I bet it was the cat.
 
yiz
if I do this: void doSomething(objectA) {...} // in this function if I have to test whether the global objectA is already initialized
 
and can't comprehend pointers
 
sbi
@R.MartinhoFernandes "She"? Oops. That's telkitty? I thought I had plonked that account?
 
@yiz no you don't
 
3:18 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes yep
it was
 
@yiz Why the heck would you pass uninitialized stuff to functions?
 
@sbi new account I believe
 
@sbi I certainly did. He had polio as a child, and "accessible" schools didn't exist at the time, so he was literally almost 100% self-educated. Much of my negative opinion on schools is based on seeing how different he was -- well-informed, thought for himself, and logical to an extreme. He died nearly 30 years ago, but I still miss him dearly.
 
sbi
@R.MartinhoFernandes You probably won't have anyone holding against that bet.
 
Cat is on a spell of extreme grump
 
sbi
3:18 PM
@thecoshman That is cheating! Well, I'll give it a few tries before I get out the fish.
 
yiz
it could get deleted sometimes, maybe it is only initialized when certain event happens
 
he's beat you @sbi in grumpiness
 
sbi
@TonyTheLion For roughly 25 years, IIRC.
 
@sbi to be fair, does seem to be less annoying, very few, if any pictures.
 
@sbi lol
 
3:19 PM
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: We are inside the box, thinking. [c++] [c++11] [c++-faq] [no-helpdesk]
 
I'm not thinking, I gave that up a while ago
4
you have added
 
@yiz If your function cannot work with uninitialised data, passing it uninitialised data is a bug. Enough said.
 
@yiz ah you getting confused with dynamic objects?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Actually, they can be. They are zero initialized before any other initialization takes place, so if you specify an initializer (e.g., int a = 1;) they're initialized twice (and both are still officially initialization).
 
Fix the bug at the call site.
 
sbi
3:20 PM
@JerryCoffin It might well be that school didn't manage to break this learning spirit of him, but OTOH there's enough people who have seen very little school and are as dumb as pigs. So "no school" does not seem to be the solution to the education debacle.
 
any hoops, time to head home me thinks
 
Shit. I want to go to a concert in Berlin but, unlike almost anyone else, ticket agents don't seem to live in this decade and want to ship me paper tickets at a ridiculous charge :((
 
@MartinJames Wut.
 
sbi
@TonyTheLion What a nicely revealing statement. (Not that we hadn't know, but...) It deserves a star, IYAM.
 
@sbi I doubt there's a solution nearly that simple -- he did (at least IMO) demonstrate how poorly suited schools are to intelligent people though and how little they accomplish in such cases.
 
sbi
3:22 PM
@MartinJames What's you're problem? Where do you want to travel from to Berlin? When? For how long? By which means?
 
yiz
@thecoshman dynamic global objects ... like an order that has the getID() function, when you first call the function (someone makes a purchse in real time), you need to initialize the ID object. But every subsequent call (could be 100 of them), you only need to check the constructed ID
 
@sbi haha
 
See y'all later
 
sbi
@JerryCoffin Many, maybe even most, schools are poorly suited for non-average kids, no matter which way the deviation is. I grant you that.
@thecoshman How would you know that? Asked your crystal ball?
 
word of advice, stop this before the cat or the puppy join in
@sbi ಠ_ಠ
 
3:24 PM
@JerryCoffin A possible solution to that problem is to let students study at their own pace in a class room (so no more teacher standing at whiteboard) and the teacher helping individual students as needed. Then all students can go at their pace, and the smarter ones will be able to move ahead faster. The school I went to taught like this, instead of the usual whiteboard teaching.
 
@sbi I can do the airline/hotel OK, it's getting the concert tickets that seems to be a pain :( No way am I paying twice the cost of the ticket just to have them delivered to UK.
 
Why can I not get an E-ticket like the airlines?
 
sbi
@MartinJames Ah, that's the problem. Maybe someone can help you there? Some of us do live in Berlin, you know.
 
Want me to buy it?
 
yiz
3:25 PM
sbi is offering @_@
 
I want to go anyway, so even if you don't show up I can just give it to someone I know.
 
@TonyTheLion Sounds rather like Maria Montessori's ideas about schooling. I'm not sure it's the best idea, but I suspect it's a pretty serious improvement over the way things are typically done now.
 
Yeah - do either of you have Paypal or something?
@ScottW Err.. I want a concert ticket in Berlin for my money. Any other services you may be offering I don't need :)
 
@MartinJames I do. You can use that to send monies?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes OK, it's about 20€, IIRC. I would appreciate one ticket :)
 
3:28 PM
:9538337 It's oh-so-tempting to say that based on the results, it clearly needs more work. :-)
 
@MartinJames Glad to be of help. I will take care of it when I get home, then.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Much appreciated. If you can get ticket, I will start on booking planes etc.
 
sbi
@JerryCoffin My kids all went to a Montessori kindergarten, and I consider the concept great. Some of my kids started out with a school with very lose doctrines. Basically, the kids could decide for themselves whether to learn, what, and when. That worked out very well for those, but wouldn't work at all with some of my other kids.
 
@ScottW Not-Berlin, i.e. same as you.
 
@ScottW Uttoxeter, near Derby - midlands UK. I can get to Tegel from EMA or MAN quite easily.
 
sbi
3:31 PM
Are you sure you ate enough, @Scott? That brain of yours does seem to be a bit under-nourished, currently.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Wow. This city has certainly turned you into a Berliner in just half a year!
 
@ScottW hehe
 
@sbi I admit nothing, deny everything, and launch counterattack.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes You saw that as an attack?
 
sbi
@ScottW Of course, since he is a Brit coming to Berlin anyway, it is nigh impossible to do a meetup with him here. (And did I mention you don't make much sense today?)
 
@sbi (What can I do? The city's nice)
 
3:33 PM
@sbi I'm not sure if it's the case here, but most "Montessori" schools don't really follow all of her ideas particularly faithfully. Based on (admittedly poor) memory, she also thought (for example) that students shouldn't be required to stay in a classroom -- they should be allowed to wander around outside more or less at will.
 
sbi
@ScottW You wish, you donut.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah - I hope to find out.
 
@TonyTheLion Hmm, googling for that exact formulation only gives results from the Lounge, so I guess I got the quote wrong. But I am sure whoever could get the reference got it anyway.
 
ah
oops
 
sbi
@JerryCoffin I must admit that I have never read her material directly, so I don't know about it firsthand, but I admit that in many settings this can be quite to implement hard organizationally. (In that school I mentioned, it was implemented, BTW.)
 
3:35 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes eoinbutler.com/home/…, for anybody who cares.
 
sbi
@R.MartinhoFernandes (Not me, BTW.)
 
How's everyone today?
 
yiz
I can understand admit nothing, but why deny everything?
 
sbi
@Jeffrey Do you really want us to enumerate billions of people's state?
 
@JerryCoffin Ah, counter-accusations.
 
yiz
3:36 PM
isn't deny everything the same as admiting not doing anything?
 
@JerryCoffin oh thanks
 
@sbi I don't know.
 
Fuck Germanwings - their flight indirect via CGN :((
 
@Jeffrey I'm fine
 
yiz
thought the best tactic is to 'maybe' all things
 
sbi
3:37 PM
@Jeffrey Well, next time, please find out whether what you ask for is really what you want before you ask it.
@ScottW How would you know?
Anyway, I'll try to get something done before I leave. Bye bye!
 
@sbi As it happens, my mother was a teacher who didn't think much of the schools she worked in, so she spent quite a bit of time researching other ideas people have had. When I was young and impressionable (16-17 or so) she was reading and talking about Montessori a lot, so I read a couple of her books. Had fun writing book reports for school with all sorts of thinly-veiled references to the massive shortcomings of the school I was going to. :-)
 
@sbi Well, that didn't hurt anyone, did it?
@yiz Can you change your profile pic?
 
yiz
why?
 
I want to cry now.
 
@yiz No -- admit to nothing is basically passive (e.g., if you say nothing, you admit to nothing). Denying everything is more active -- it requires you to actively state your lack of involvement/culpability/etc.
@sbi Good night.
 
Ell
3:41 PM
My view matrix breaks everything
 
Sounds great. Can you weaponise that?
 
Ell
Maybe! :D
 
yiz
<- is how I feel at moment, so this is the avatar I am having :/
 
sad... kit-t-ty... pampering... NO! M-M-M-UST RESIST-T-T!!!
 
user142019
Hi.
 
3:48 PM
hej
 
user142019
sup
 
Ell
hi
 
hi
 
Ha! Fixed my slothnet - shut down VS.
 
> slothnet
lol
 
user142019
3:50 PM
The U, S and A.
 
'MURICA
 
Anyone played Diablo III ?
 
I haven't
 
user142019
Yup.
 
It sucks.
Total piece of shit.
 
user142019
3:53 PM
Never played it, though.
 
Act I was OK.
After that, was totally crap.
 
user142019
Try Minecraft.
 
user142019
Or MGS 3.
 
Metal Gear?
I really don't like FPSs
But definitely Minecraft
 
MGS isn't a FPS.
 
user142019
3:54 PM
@GamesBrainiac Yes MGS really is an FPS.
 
It isnt?
 
user142019
No.
 
user142019
It's a stealth action game.
 
user142019
And it's third person.
 
user142019
3:55 PM
@EtiennedeMartel seen it already. :P
 
@rightfold : Sorry, I thought about Mass Effect
 
@GamesBrainiac Mass Effect isn't first person. And it's more of an RPG.
 
My bad
 
user142019
lol
 
user142019
Duplofail.
 
3:56 PM
Oh, @Luc, regarding op== for sequences... Not sure I like the idea.
If anything, it would be optional.
 
user142019
Today is a weird day.
 
@rightfold Why?
 
Do you think it can be particularly useful for something?
 
user142019
@GamesBrainiac Things go differently than they normally go.
 
4:00 PM
@rightfold Hmm
 
hmm
Is bool x = true; cout << (x << 5); guaranteed to output 32?
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Are you lightness or an imposter?
 
user142019
For example, I woke up early today!
 
@rightfold Whoah.
 
4:02 PM
@GamesBrainiac He's the real deal.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit true will always equal 1.
 
user142019
@GamesBrainiac Both.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I know that true is guaranteed to be 1 when converted to int.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Yes?
Implicit conversion to 1, then shift, etc.
32 fits in any integer type, so no overflows either.
Assuming cout is std::cout, etc, i.e., this is not a trick question.
 
user142019
std::cout << can fail. :>
 
4:05 PM
@EtiennedeMartel I guess I wanted to check that it'll actually convert and not assume some internal representation
but yeah that would be silly
okay
thanks
 
user142019
The internal representation isn't guaranteed but the conversions are.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Weird, something about his avatar seems off! :P
 
user142019
-1 needs more women
 
yiz
and you will piss them all off
would be a great pic if they are under the rock instead of being above it
 
4:09 PM
> [C++11: 5.8/1]: The operands shall be of integral or unscoped enumeration type and integral promotions are performed. .[..]
there we go
nice to be sure
 
Spritz time...
 
@Luc Hmmm. seq::bind(s, [](int i) { return seq::as_sequence({ i, i }); }); :S I think I need owning sequences for this (i.e. this is the moral equivalent of returning a ref to a local/temp).
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah I made a change from boost::iterator_range to my hand-rolled one and it broke some unit tests that were relying on that.
@R.MartinhoFernandes An alternative is to have bind work with ranges (== sources+sequences), and return e.g. std::array.
Well.
It's not an alternative: only works for one statement (i.e. presumably things that accept ranges immediately take a sequence from sources).
 
I think I can either change the requirement so that the function has to return a source, or make a owning-sequence available.
Or both, but I want to keep the semantics as strict as possible for now.
 
Presumably that makes the result of bind a source.
 
4:14 PM
No.
(Well, yes, because sequences are reusable as sources, but that's incidental)
 
OK, Lufthansa it is : £123.91. Anne can give lifts to/from BHX.
 
How much copying does dup(generator()) then?
(Or generator() | dup)
 
Either way I will need the owning-sequence. The only question is whether to put it in the interface or use it only as the temp-storage of bind_sequence.
@LucDanton What does dup do?
 
Something like dup x f = f x x but that typechecks and is relevant.
 
The thing is, the source for the result of the function has to survive the function's execution, i.e. can't be local.
 
4:17 PM
That of bind?
 
I don't disagree.
 
Right, but right now I don't have the tools to do that: a std::vector isn't a sequence, so return std::vector<int>{i,i} doesn't work either, and seq::as_sequence(std::vector<int>{i,i}) takes dangling iterators.
 
What is the semantics of copying sequences?
 
@LucDanton Same as copying iterators.
 
4:20 PM
What happens if I copy an owning sequence?
 
On SO, when a post is reopened, are the down/upvotes reset?
 
no
 
OK, next - all you donuts, can you suggest a good hotel, (eg. 4*), that is convenient for concert hall?
 
@LucDanton A copy of the owned bits.
 
:s (brb vidya)
 
4:21 PM
@MartinJames Hmm, I don't even know where it takes place. Sec.
@MartinJames Hmm, dunno anything in that area (maps.google.de/…)
 
OK - no problemo. I will Google etc.
 
Well, I know a bunch of bars around there, but no hotels.
 
Is something missing?

Edit Google Maps.
That's new.
Oh they're serious.
Why would you want to add a road?
 
Wut. I don't see anything.
 
4:28 PM
@Rapptz Because a new road has been built and Google doesn't known about it yet?
 
Must sign in. Meh.
Wait, how the hell does that search fail?
 
I guess I underestimated the amount of roads added.
 
is Qt language is bugy?
 
Yes. No. Qt isn't a language.
 
Do you mean the Qt library?
 
4:31 PM
@Rapptz They even have the pathways inside the all parks.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes i'm try use qt creator to create Ui application . and is looks like messed up
 
Ell
Checkvist is absolutely brilliantly useful
 
> 100 Million people were killed by the Spanish Flu. Developer (C++/Java) wanted to prevent a repeat. source
lolwat
 
@Luc I think I will accept functions returning sources. That gives the less pain to the user and lets me keep seq::detail::owning_sequence.
 
@Klasik Are you sure it isn't your fault?
 
4:33 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes I think he means QML...?
 
I could make the owning_sequences share the ownership, but not sure.
 
@Klasik QML, ECMAScript, or C++? Which language are you using?
 
@TonyTheLion "Big Data"
 
@ShotgunNinja c++
 
If you say C++ is buggy, be prepared to be laughed out of the room.
 
4:35 PM
@ShotgunNinja no i'm not say that :))
 
I hope you mean either that your code is buggy, or that the Qt libraries for C++ are buggy. Because either of those are acceptable.
All right then.
Yes, Qt is fairly buggy.
 
Why can't the user be buggy?
 
Can the user be fixed?
 
@ShotgunNinja I just create new project in qt creator. and seted window to fixed. but window still resizing :)) I googled and found that the peoples make it work by setting max and min size of window... stupid.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Boo to that.
Here's an incentive so you don't use that: that's exactly what Boost.Range does.
 
4:40 PM
I think i must avoid qt as MFC for GUI applications. left to try c# with .net and then java :)
 
someone just pointed out to me that part of the standard library is effectively broken if sizeof(wchar_t)==2. en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/locale/codecvt_utf16 look at that example closely.
 
Wtf are you doing
 
Xeo
@MooingDuck What's wrong?
 
@Xeo for(wchar_t c; fin.get(c); ) std::cout << ... c ... results in output 0x1d10b. That's too big.
@Xeo reading from a stream with std::codecvt_utf16<wchar_t, 0x10ffff, std::little_endian> will result in code points instead of code units, and code points do not fit in a 16 bit wchar_t.
 
Presumably that's not the value c get when wchar_t is of a different size?
 
4:44 PM
So storing them in a wchar_t will truncate.
 
Xeo
Hm, Maxcode is 0x10FFFF which is 0001 0000 1111 1111 1111 1111 ... a bit over the limit of 16bit.
I first overlooked that first 1 and was like "what's wrong?"
 
@LucDanton lol
@MooingDuck Broken how?
It fails, but not with UB.
(See how both out and in are able to return error codes)
 
oh man
that's a pretty bad set up imo
somewhat ugly wire management, the desktop looks like it might fall over (the strapping doesn't seem to support its weight)
too many screens all around you seems bothersome too
 
4:54 PM
huh
 
OK, I am going to Berlin! Hotel, airline res. all fixed up. Now, just have to make sure I have enough €€€ for beer.
 

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