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9:00 PM
so true
 
Gimme music, YouTube sucks at recommendations.
 
Ell
@CatPlusPlus street spirit (fade out) by radiohead
 
any hoops, got to go do a bit a of varnishing, back in a bit
 
sbi
> If I were king I’d just start beheading people for writing factories that make factories. It’d collectively save us billions of dollars. And every time you make a singleton, God kills a start-up, two if you think you’ve made it thread-safe. — Landon Dyer
 
"I've got a bit of vanishing to do", he says, and promptly vanishes.
 
9:02 PM
lol
 
Ell
sounds like terry pratchet or something :L
 
At the very least it's butter than singletons again.
 
@thecoshman I disagree. The problems are language-independent, but the need for a pattern to solve them is not. For example, std::function vs Listener classes.
 
For my personal statement: Is it proper to say polmorphic design concepts or polymorphous design concepts?
 
If you use std::function as a listener, then it's a listener! (I prefer signal/slot. Or publisher/subscriber.)
 
9:16 PM
@CatPlusPlus The point is that the pattern calls for 99999 Listener classes and C++ has one std::function
 
I've never heard "polymorphous" used anywhere.
Also buzzwords.
@DeadMG Dunno, I haven't read that book.
 
this grammar checker is trying to change it to that :S What do you mean by buzzwords?
 
@CatPlusPlus In Java, you must define a new Listener class for everything you want to listen to.
 
Ell
what is the difference between signal/slot, publisher/subscriber observer, listener?
 
That's language limitation, really. With std::function you have to have a listener somewhere, too.
 
9:18 PM
@CatPlusPlus That's my point. It's because the language is limited
 
No fundamental difference.
 
in C++ you have one std::function and it's done, there's no pattern here.
 
@CatPlusPlus if only I did say that :P
 
@thecoshman I know you didn't.
 
Ah I understand now, and you have a good point. Thanks @CatPlusPLus.
 
9:19 PM
It's funnier this way.
 
@DeadMG AFAIK listener class is the pattern, std::function is an implementation of that pattern
 
@thecoshman You can't call one class a pattern. It's not a pattern- it's a class.
 
std::function is a workaround on language limitations, too.
 
Ell
why cant you call one class a pattern?
 
nobody in application code in C++ will ever have to produce a std::function
so it's hard to call it a pattern when you never have to write it
that's like calling strings or arrays a pattern
 
9:21 PM
@DeadMG normally, your class will implement an Xlistener for each thing it wants to listen to
 
I really don't know what you're talking about. An interface in Java would be equivalent of std::function<T> and implementers would be equivalent to things you assign to std::function<T>.
Sure, it looks different, but it's the same thing under the covers.
 
@CatPlusPlus What I'm talking about is that in C++, you never ever create an XListener class. Oh, and std::function serves for every interface.
 
@CatPlusPlus an interface in Java is basically a pure abstract class with no member variables that you can 'implement' as many of as you wish
 
so I, the C++ user, never deal with these things
 
That's not related to it being a pattern or not.
 
9:23 PM
so it's hard to suggest that it's a pattern for C++ code, and more of an implementation detail
 
@thecoshman I know that.
std::function is a poor man's workaround for lack of first-class functions, anyway.
 
@CatPlusPlus perhaps I am misunderstanding std::function then
 
std::function<void(int)> listener;
IVoidInt listener;
More boilerplate, maybe. Different? No.
 
it is different because you have to actually create IVoidInt yourself
 
are we talking about 'listener' in the same sense here :P
 
9:25 PM
Again, that's boilerplate due to language differences, not fundamental difference in pattern itself.
 
so you could argue that IVoidInt and IVoidFloat is a pattern, which you have to do
 
Pattern is "you have a thing you can call to notify it about something".
 
@CatPlusPlus The pattern can only be a pattern if it's exposed to the user.
it's not a pattern in language Y if you never do it
 
it's an implementation detail
 
9:26 PM
Classes are implementation detail.
 
@DeadMG rubbish, a design pattern is a way to write a section of code. it has nothing to do with if the user will see it or not
 
no, because you have to code them
 
Okay, let's move to C#.
 
@thecoshman A way to write multiple sections of code. Not one section of code.
 
std::function<void(int)> listener;
delegate void listener(int);
Okay, actually that should be two lines of code, but whatever.
This is the pattern.
Not classes, functions or whatever.
 
9:27 PM
@DeadMG what ever, but my point still stands, a pattern does not have to be seen by an end user to be a pattern
 
@thecoshman It does if you're the end user.
 
So a factory that's used internally is... not a factory?
 
it's the same thing as pointers-as-arrays- you need it if you're implementing std::vector, but that doesn't make it a pattern or a good idea
 
@DeadMG that makes no sense
 
@CatPlusPlus That's different, because you have to write several factories for all the ... factory things you need.
 
9:28 PM
@CatPlusPlus by dead's logic, no
 
if you want to factory some Render objects and some OS objects, there's no class or template which can define the interface and implementation for you
 
Interfaces, classes, templates are all irrelevant.
pat·tern   [pat-ern; Brit. pat-n] Show IPA
noun
4. a distinctive style, model, or form: a new pattern of army helmet.
5. a combination of qualities, acts, tendencies, etc., forming a consistent or characteristic arrangement: the behavior patterns of teenagers.
 
fountain of truth
In software engineering, a design pattern is a general reusable solution to a commonly occurring problem within a given context in software design. A design pattern is not a finished design that can be transformed directly into code. It is a description or template for how to solve a problem that can be used in many different situations. So patterns are formalized best practices that you must implement yourself in your application. Object-oriented design patterns typically show relationships and interactions between classes or objects, without specifying the final application classes or obj...
 
Something creating a new thing based on some parameters is a pattern.
 
@CatPlusPlus Pretty sure that a code pattern must involve, you know, the things that codes are made of.
 
9:30 PM
It's called pattern for a reason.
Also design pattern, not code pattern.
 
@DeadMG it's a design thing, code is an abstract concept when talk about design patterns
 
My god, did I start this argument too?
 
Higher level of abstraction.
 
pretty irrelevant, since "design pattern" is "a way you make code", which is pretty relevant
a pattern is "A thing where I, the user of the language, must do this thing". Listeners in C++ do not qualify since I, the user of the language, do not have to do it.
 
@DeadMG it is still a pattern, it's just that the hard work is done for you
 
9:32 PM
You use std::function<...> OnSomething; in your code. Listeners.
 
@CatPlusPlus The pattern clearly calls for the creation of new derived classes and such things, which I did not do.
 
No, it doesn't.
 
if a language (for some on godly reason) decided to provide a flag you can add to classes to make a singleton, it is still using the singleton pattern
 
@thecoshman You still have to write all those classes.
 
@DeadMG no it doesn't. the listener pattern just requires that you have a class or classes that has (have) a function that can be called to be notified about an event and a way for said class to register it self as wanting to be notified of the event
 
9:35 PM
It doesn't have to be a class.
 
you do not have to make special classes to handle each event and then aggregate them together
 
> In software engineering, a design pattern is a general reusable solution to a commonly occurring problem within a given context in software design.
 
@CatPlusPlus true, even further to my point
 
implementing std::function is not a commonly occurring problem.
 
std::function itself is not a listener pattern.
 
9:36 PM
It's a tool that can be used to implement a listener pattern.
 
@DeadMG of course, but you do not have to do the work of making it a singleton, singleton being the pattern in question
 
It's just a language-limitation-thing, like interfaces in Java.
 
@DeadMG no, it's one of many solution to a problem
@CatPlusPlus interfaces aren't a limitation, they are a work around for stupidly refusing to allow multiple inheritance
 
@thecoshman How is that not a limitation?
 
What's important is that library side provides a way for client code to register a callable to be notified of events or whatever.
@thecoshman However you call them, whatever.
 
9:38 PM
@DeadMG are you doing this on purpose?
 
you said it yourself, Java does not allow MI, which is a limitation.
 
@sbi That seems like my ISP speed :D
 
the fact that interfaces exist simply expresses this fact
 
And back to my previous thought, whether that's std::function, Boost.Signals, pure virtual class, does. not. matter.
 
@DeadMG yes, lack of MI is the limitation, interfaces are a work around for that limitation
 
9:39 PM
I mean, if I had to define "limitation", I'd probably go with something like "Result of the fact that software X cannot perform function Y"
which sounds exactly like interfaces to me
 
Y'all crazy and should use Haskell anyway.
 
you're confused. the fact that interfaces are attempting to resolve the problem of no MI dose not meant they are responsible for no MI
 
I don't need no stinking std::function when I have real functions!
 
eh
std::function is fine
 
It's a workaround.
 
9:41 PM
for what?
 
For lack of first-class functions.
 
endless c++ fights :D
 
sbi
@SoulReaper Anubis? That you?
 
you mean how std::function achieves the exact same purpose but as a library?
 
Yes. Workaround.
 
9:42 PM
@sbi yes I guess :)
 
@CatPlusPlus Not really. Why would any language introduce a language feature where a library feature can do everything the language feature can do?
 
@CatPlusPlus as in the fact you can't pass the address of an instances member function, like you can a non class function
 
that's needless complexity in the language
 
sbi
@SoulReaper Oh. all that renaming confuses me.
 
It's a complexity only in a already complex language.
 
9:43 PM
I admit that the FP and MFP systems are broken; but std::function is not a part of the problem there
 
sbi
Anyway, it's my connection via mobile phone's GRPS from my garden, @Soul. :(
 
@CatPlusPlus It's a complexity anywhere where it's not necessary.
any language where std::function can be a library, then making it a language feature is unnecessary
 
@sbi now you know how I feel all time when online :P
 
Languages much simpler than C++ have that as language feature, and that doesn't make them any more complex.
 
sbi
@SoulReaper You have ping times >1s all the time?
 
9:44 PM
well, sure, but I don't think that you'd want to remove the stuff that makes std::function possible
which those languages do not have
 
Yes, I would.
I would like to remove large parts of C++.
 
@sbi yes for sure
 
wait a cotton picking second, is std::function the same as thunking
 
@CatPlusPlus So would I, but std::function doesn't really depend on the evil parts
 
@ScottW identity + job crisis too :(
 
9:45 PM
I like first-class functions better.
 
sbi
@SoulReaper Well, look at the bright side: You're never going to waste your time by playing some FPS over the Internet...
 
@CatPlusPlus I don't see the point in making it a language feature when I would never cut the language features that make having it library-only possible.
 
@ScottW never had one , still a fresher
 
@sbi oh, and you don't have decent keyboard either do you?
 
@thecoshman A simple one, maybe.
 
sbi
9:46 PM
@thecoshman My laptop's keyboard's pretty good. It even has a numeric block.
 
@sbi oh, so tethered then?
@CatPlusPlus so I could pass a std::function to the win api for some thing like the message handler function?
 
sbi
@thecoshman Sigh. Do I really have to tell the story all over once every hour?
 
@thecoshman No.
 
sbi
@Malwarebytes is really looking for a good C++ person. Any takers? http://www.malwarebytes.org/company/jobs
 
@sbi I assumed too many things. GRPS -> must be using phone's internet -> must be using phone's keyboard -> the little trooper, wanting to chat that badly
@sbi do you think I would count (as a good C++ person)?
 
sbi
9:49 PM
@thecoshman Just follow the link.
 
You need bit more than simple type erasing for that to work.
 
sbi
@thecoshman Hell, how would I know?
 
@sbi you've seen the shit I've asked :P
 
sbi
@thecoshman Actually, I haven't. (I haven't really answered questions since end of 2010.)
 
9:51 PM
@sbi I've mostly asked question in chat, because it's usually stupid little things
 
hey hey, noob question, do any of you know what could "build tree" mean? I'm trying to add a library to my qt project, but I'm not understanding how to add it to the build tree
 
@danieleds it means you need to add either the source or compile library to your build settings so that it is included when you build your project
 
sbi
@CatPlusPlus One or two answers a months (and I bet I'm considerably below that for the last 18 months) doesn't count as "really answering questions" in my book.
 
Okay here goes :)
@sbi That user had come into the lounge after 'bothering' the PHP folks. He basically was spamming for a 'job opportunity' (of the kind you must refuse) asking clueless questions, pressing for 'a quote' out of thin air. All of this was rather laughable until he started being nasty (trolling) about us making fun of him, instead of admitting we were just too stupid to answer. This went on for a bit...
@sbi ... and I don't know how he managed, but he actually turned things around (for me) round about this time from which time I thought he became a mild amusement, a possible plonk but half-amusing. Some people didn't see the change of heart/pace quite the way I did and continued to 'scare' him away. I just took my opportunity to match my trolling powers, ...
@sbi I flagged twice. The first was his remark "Ewwww. Radek" right after this message:
I left most other flags alone (invalid/unsure; e.g. here), as I couldn't objectively see the harm (other than being a minor nuisance).
@sbi ... not skipping any chances to get the message through that we're not, in fact, under any obligation to help him if he rubs us the wrong way, regardless of how legitimate any of his questions might be (they weren't).
23 hours ago, by Radek 'daknok' Slupik
lol shiny diagnostics
 
@thecoshman ok that confirms my theory, now I just have to understand what's the right way to do it in qt...
 
9:53 PM
@sbi I thought that was rude and needlessly offensive. He clearly intended that at 'Radek' in person, because apparently Radek had dispensed the (incredulous) advice to... read a book. (His rationale: he must be too stupid to answer the question instead).
 
More flags = more banhammer for the troll.
 
I did flag his spam link to swordgirlsonline.com later (right before this message) mainly because I wanted to discourage him from starting all over again. I had already formally 'snored' my farewell by that time.
Various other nice sightings along the route: you're all so patient, sorry for marking the flags invalid, no obligation to explain ...
Weehoot. That was a nice one. I think all in all I had to click 'retry' about 10-20 times.
 
sbi
@thecoshman Most of what I remember from you is you complaining about your job. I can't remember you having asked any C++ question.
 
@sbi :P
 
sbi
@sehe Well, all it did was convince me that I should have validated the flags I found — which I had already done. So it's a bit useless now. But I am glad you got it off your chest. :)
 
9:59 PM
god damn kitten is running all over the place
 
@sbi Ah well. If you ever get bored, follow some of those links for a very short chuckle :)
 
sbi
@sehe Not with my current connection. It would take all night.
 
@sbi Well, better not get bored, then :)
 
sbi
@sehe I should get to bed, really. I put the wee ones in 2.5hrs late, which means they're likely to be up an hour early. That would be in 5-6hrs. Also, they will give me a very hard day tomorrow, if my prediction is true, because they will be too tired to act reasonably.
 
lol, looking on monster at jobs (little steps) and so far, all relevant local jobs sound like they are actually for Ericssons :P
 
10:09 PM
@sbi Hehe. Our kids went an hour late too. But they tend to be nice and quiet whilst we sleep in :) Also, there is no rush on a sunday, I intend to put up the pool in the garden and have barbecue, wheather permitting.
Monday is a school holiday, so there isn't even a stringent reason to be 'on scheduler' tomorrow night. Life is good
 
sbi
@thecoshman If you want a job that's not as insane as the one you currently have, then you should not start looking at websites where companies post jobs that do not find employees through any other way than through posting on such sites. It would be much better to be referred to some employer by someone.
 
@sbi I don't know any one in my local area other than those working with me :(
 
sbi
@sehe Ah, my small ones have learned to stick to their room on Sunday mornings, too. But here in the garden house we all sleep in the same room, and tomorrow morning it will be too cold and wet to chase them outside.
 
@sbi You have a garden house? <gasp/> Ok, you're out 'camping' then.
 
If I where to move back to England, I know a few connections that could help me get in some where. But moving isn't really an option for the now
 
10:12 PM
... after thinking about that: what the hell are you doing on SO chat then
 
sbi
@thecoshman Use google or your local phone book to find small (<50 devs) software companies. User their website to find out what they do and whether it's something you could do. Then just apply to them.
 
@sbi oh man, when was that last time I even saw a phone book :P
 
@thecoshman use the equivalent. The point is: navigate on your own initiative
 
sbi
@sehe I have a garden 3-5km from home. Since nice weather is predicted, I decided to just stay outside the three holidays.
@thecoshman Sigh. You might deserve the job you have.
 
¬_¬ can a man not point out that he's seen a phone book in a long time with out getting thought an idiot?
 
10:16 PM
c'est le ton qui fait la musique
 
sbi
@sehe I am chatting, of course.
The garden is cold and owned my mosquitoes at this time of night. The kids are fast asleep. The onyl thing that really needed to be done is cooking, and, since this is more or less one room, I'd rather not do this now, with the door closed, and bedtime being near.
 
oh well. Perhaps you'd have found a good book for the weekend :)
I understand, I like being here too
A little too much sometimes
 
sbi
@sehe I have found a good book. It's only available as an ebook, though, and I don't currently feel like staring at my phone in bed. :-/
 
bad (G) => bath (EN) or
bad (typo) => bed (EN)?
 
sbi
:(
 
10:20 PM
:)
 
"avail-able" because you never want to look too professional
 
@RadekdaknokSlupik on a related note, my CLANG finally compiled. Now I'm nearly there compiling the parser thingie (that you probably have opegefrommeld by now?)
 
sbi
What? There's a book out there by Pratchett & Baxter?? @RMartinho, have you heard about The Long Earth? I didn't even know those two were collaborating!?
 
@sehe what parser thingie? :P
 
10:23 PM
@RadekdaknokSlupik 5603bd1684eedd366961b0a416b36ea15cba7171
 
sbi
@RadekdaknokSlupik Secret Sex Change.
 
expert-sexchange
 
sbi
Anyway, nighttime for me. See y'all!
 
10:25 PM
@sbi night
 
@RadekdaknokSlupik > 5603bd1 (HEAD, origin/master, origin/HEAD, master) Make node constructors take first token as argument
 
@sehe have you cloned that?
 
@RadekdaknokSlupik you, you sent me a link, remember
 
In LaTeX, how can I get those numbered lists with the numbers with a negative margin? Like this:
 
yesterday, by Radek 'daknok' Slupik
@sehe The performance of my implementation sucks, I guess. But I haven't tested it. The lexer and parser are here, in libdaklang. It's incomplete but works so far.
 
10:27 PM
@sehe you cloned the GitHub project? Because I deleted it today.
I started over.
But now I only have part of the lexer and part of the diagnostics engine.
 
@RadekdaknokSlupik well, the compiler has a hard time talking http to github, so yeah, I cloned it.
 
So it's not lost. xD
 
@RadekdaknokSlupik > opgefrommeld
 
I don't know if that revisions contains the clang-like diagnostics, though.
But I'm now writing the language spec.
 
10:30 PM
:P
 
@RadekdaknokSlupik it was rather hard to guess the language spec form the sample:
  std::string code =
  "package";
 
lol
 
Crap, it doesn't yet contain those diagnostics.
@sehe try something like this:
 
codepad, pastebin, gist.github.com?
 
import sys::io as io
pure get_string -> "hello"
weak main -> io::print(get_string())
@sehe made me laugh. :P
 
What does it output?
 
No output. I guess that is a good thing. But it doesn't interpret it, I suppose
 
Try adding "\\m" to the string literal. :)
  std::string code =
  "import sys::io as io\n"
  "pure get_string -> \"h\\mello\"\n"
  "weak main -> io::print(get_string())\n";
It should emit a diagnostic.
 
weak?
 
I'm know rewriting this thing. I only have the lexer, though. Tomorrow I'll begin with the parser.
@DeadMG unpure is such a long word. xD
 
10:36 PM
what's wrong with just not specifying pure?
 
I don't know. :P
Didn't think about that.
 
@RadekdaknokSlupik mmm. nothing here. I tried several other mutilations, no diags. However, the original gave:
sehe@mint12:~/Projects/daklang/daklang/src$ git checkout 63f5209aadc main.cpp
sehe@mint12:~/Projects/daklang/daklang/src$ make  && LD_LIBRARY_PATH=. ./daklang
clang++ -I ../../libdaklang/include -std=c++0x -O0 main.cpp -o daklang -L ../../libdaklang/src/ -ldaklang
1:8: error: Expected identifier.
 
I love github hyperlinks
 
damn kitty is nibbly
she has also spent most of the hot day sleeping, so is now manic as all hell
 
10:42 PM
@thecoshman kindly babysit Mint?
 
@sehe say what?
 
@thecoshman tiny limb stinky: bad
@thecoshman milk by tiny bandits?
@thecoshman limit ink by standby
@thecoshman Tabby idly nits mink
 
what the devil?
 
come on, figure it out
 
meh, I'll let you keep your odd references to your self
 
10:57 PM
@thecoshman sink by manly tidbit
 
ooh, euro-vision was on tonight... meh
 
shitty music
 
@RadekdaknokSlupik I bet you would know an anagram when you saw one?
 
scroll up
 
11:00 PM
So, I just wrote this in my spec with my sleepy head:
> A program that uses the result of a function is malformed.
@sehe I don't see the anagram.
 
oh christ! I think I know why my kitty likes the cat milk. 900mg of Taurine per Kg
 
Ain't my sky bit blind?
(@RadekdaknokSlupik)
@sehe oh my that version still rocks
 
@sehe here is the spec so far, if for some strange reason you want to continue on the project. xD
I'm going to bed.
 
I'm going to mirror your approach
Sleep tight
 
I'm not going to sleep.
 
11:05 PM
oh, apparently cat's need the Taurine, so it's ok :D
 
did you know that 'Taurine' is an anagram of 'urinate'
(hint hint, wink, wink)
And that it will ruin tea?
 
@RadekdaknokSlupik What will you do? You keep confusing me by saying you don't sleep when you go to bed. I sleep when my head hits the pillow
 
I will chat, read reddit and read my spec to find mistakes. In bed. :P
 
in bed. wokay
 
11:15 PM
Where else.
 
Well. I'm going to do something totally bizarre.
I'm going to sleep in my bed
 
I would like to do that in a walk-in fridge, but I don't have one.
Sleeping is a waste of time.
 
Once again, you need std::grow_pair<>
 
And std::grow_hair<>
 
std::grope_air is widely considered a design mistake
std::make_fun<> would actually have applicability
@RadekdaknokSlupik judging from your utterations you like to waste time
 
11:22 PM
xD
 
anyways, I'm off
sleep well. Or don't, whatever :)
 
Später.
Still anyone here?
 
11:40 PM
 
That one is hilarious.
 
This one is for @DeadMG:
 
lol
 
> Grrrrr, bark, woof. Good dog.
 
@ScottW it's time to starve!
 
11:48 PM
:)
 
A son of the dad of a nephew of a friend of mine has a dog named Scotty.
Wednesday will be the best day of my life so far.
Finally done with the school where you get high.
 
I have never really though about the following thing:
array<int, 5> x = {{1, 2, 3, 4, 5}};
for_each(begin(x), end(x), [](int y){std::cout<<y;});

How on earth does for_each know what to pass to lambda for y ? As i come to think about it, why isn't that y there a random value ?
 
Ehm, it passes the current value in the array?
 
Yeah but
WHY :D ?
 
Template argument deduction.
 
11:54 PM
It simply generates an iterator and sends there a dereferenced value as far as I'm concerned. But why the heck does it indeed know that I want haz that dereferenced value in it.
 
for_each is a template function taking two iterators. It dereferencing the iterator and passes it to the lambda.
 
Yarr, but why is that iterator passed!! :)
It's magic!
 
You pass it explicitly.
 
Nope, you don;t really.
You don't say : Hey, this int y is supposed to be the iterator.
 
Here is a possible implementation.
 
11:55 PM
You simply state that this lambda takes this argument int y.
You never tell it that you actually mean that you want the dereferenced iterator for the array you're going trough.
It works automagically.
 
template<class T, class F>
void foreach(T begin, T end, F callback) {
  for (auto i = begin; i != end; ++i) callback(*i);
}
 
Dude, that's what i said, that you literally just get an iterator. I'm wondering about the fact that lambda gets magically the correct value in it's argument.
Yet where do i state the fact that my int y is indeed that iterator after derference ?
 
You dereference the iterator.
Dereferencing an iterator yields the value it points to.
Iterators behave like pointers.
 
But I've never told it that my "int y" is supposed to be that value after the dereference takes place.
I'm talking about something entirely different :)
 
What value?
 
11:58 PM
I'm very confident with pointers and iterators.
I'm wondering though
why when i say [](int y){std::cout<<y;} it knows somehow
that that int y is nothing else than that derefd. iterator
 
It's a copy of the derefenced iterator. A lambda is just a functor.
 

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