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4:00 PM
But nooo, they really want you to buy the newest OS X version.
 
In that case you would deserve the insult.
(The insult being a mac user)
(OBVIOUSLY)
 
French people…
:P
 
Caps and shit.
 
Double asterisk is too long to type.
 
@Cicada yup. I want a usable, powerful UI which doesn’t require me to recompile a patched driver when plugging in an external monitor.
 
4:01 PM
@RadekdaknokSlupik Yeah.
 
Which rules out both Windows and Linux …
 
@KonradRudolph Get a Texas Instrument
 
snap!
 
4:01 PM
Thrash talk up in this bitch.
 
I'm guessing Apple LLVM compiler 3.1 isn't clang 3.1, right?
 
(I do reckon Mac OS has a beautiful UI)
 
@RadekdaknokSlupik Yep, that's my compiler. GCC 4.2. I love life.
 
that’s it, no more upvotes for you, @Cicada
 
@EtiennedeMartel clang ftw.
 
Ell
4:02 PM
I have never had problems with linux
 
@Cicada rules: (1) Do not argue with DeadMG. (2) Do not argue with Alf. (3) We hate Java, Javascript, and C here, and love C++ and Haskell.
 
@Ell me neither, until I choose to use a GUI.
 
I never had problems with FreeBSD. I never used it as well, but that doesn't mean I can't have problems with it, right?
 
@MooingDuck and we love me!
 
4:02 PM
@Ell Then you are either (a) lucky, (b) never used exotic hardware (see external monitor on laptop) or (c) lying … or (d) never used a GUI
 
Ell
I use a gui :L and still never have problems
 
@MooingDuck I hate Haskell for no reasons.
 
Ell
I'm lucky :P
 
@RadekdaknokSlupik that would probably be the beginning of the end
Can we introduce a tag synonym for mac?
 
@KonradRudolph Last time I had my hands on exotic hardware (weird wireless chip on my laptop), kernel got support for it the following week :P
 
4:04 PM
Why the hell can I choose different versions of C++ for the debug and release builds? That doesn't make sense. "Oh, yeah, let me compile my code as C++98 in debug mode, and as C++11 in release mode!"
 
I'm gonna do that next year on April 1st. Propose "fag" as a tag redirect to "mac". Or the opposite. Or both.
 
That might be insulting to homosexual people.
 
You'll get suspended. Metafags The metapolice has no sense of humor.
 
You bet it is.
 
@RadekdaknokSlupik The other way around is even worse!
 
4:05 PM
@Cicada The troll is strong in this one.
 
#include <iostream>
int main() {std::cout << "Hello!\n";}
// Hey I can write a polyglot! C++98 and C++11!!!1
 
@Cicada you'll get farther with something less discriminitory, like "useless"
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Reminds me of a joke, actually
 
@KonradRudolph Are there midi-chlorians for troll?
Now I feel dirty. I wrote the M-word.
 
@MooingDuck That would be stating the obvious.
 
4:07 PM
The bartender gives him a drink and asks what the problem is. All he says is, "All lawyers are idiots."
A man sitting in the corner shouts, "I take offense to that!"
The pissed-off guy asks him, "Why? Are you a lawyer?"
He replies, "No, I'm an idiot."
 
Xeo
fuck
 
Xeo
fuckfuckfuck.
 
@Cicada Are you sure you’re new to this chat? You fit right in.
 
4:08 PM
@Neil I thought you said you were done
 
@EtiennedeMartel those signs get stolen very often each year by tourists.
 
Ell
I don't swear unless I'm talking dirty to someone
 
Xeo
So, I somehow managed to damage my windows installation and can't get to the system repair tools....
 
Not kidding.
 
@MooingDuck Done with puns, sir. Done with puns.
 
4:08 PM
So I heard, yes.
 
@Neil ah, loopholes
 
Xeo
And my bootable USB isn't detected as such....
 
@KonradRudolph Yeah I'm rather new. I came a few days ago to ask a question and got flamed at. Since then I just join to enjoy the permanent drama.
 
@Xeo "somehow"? What the heck does that mean?
 
@Cicada "rather New" says the 10k+ user
 
4:10 PM
@MooingDuck I joined SO a year ago. Got crazy about rep and medals. Made a strong cut for nearly 8 months and now I'm slowly back.
 
If you've done nothing particularly dangerous, I'd check the hardware first. Hard drives have a habit of dying on me, so I could be biased.
 
Xeo
Dunno, I left my PC on as always, when I woke up it was off, and the system32/rasapi32.dll is damaged for whatever reason
 
@Cicada Flamed at? Really?
 
@Cicada We've got a SO junkie on our hands.
 
You probably got @DeadMG on one of his bad days (which is every day).
 
4:11 PM
@MooingDuck I'm on this chat since a few days only TBH
 
makes sense.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Yeah I basically was told to ask my question somewhere else (which makes sense indeed), but in a rather vexing (is that even english) way.
 
Yeah, was probably @DeadMG.
 
Yes, English is vexing. Or the other way around.
 
Xeo
derp, nevermind. My bootable USB works fine, I just tried to find it under "removable" instead of "hard disk"
I sure hope I can get this fixed now
 
4:13 PM
I'm not always on a bad day
just nearly always
 
@EtiennedeMartel Coincidentally, my rage-leave message got starred enough to make me get a medal, so uh.
In the end it's a good thing. I guess.
 
lol
So, you ragequit. We star your ragequit message to death and that makes you come back? Only in Lounge<C++>.
 
Awesum.
 
That's the idea
And I got my question answered anyway
 
Xeo
lol
 
4:15 PM
Everything went well.
 
@Cicada Link for that?
 
@KonradRudolph I've been looking since she mentioned it, can't find it
Maybe it was the C# room?
 
@Cicada Cheers
 
@Cicada oh, I remember that, I didn't realize that was anger
 
4:17 PM
Oh.
That sounded pretty soft, actually.
I've seen worse rage.
 
I really hated the way they replied actually
 
@Cicada Abyx trolls but he's just being silly, he doesn't mean offense :(
 
Doesn't matter had badge.
 
Har har.
 
(And yeah I do sound soft but inside I really was raging)
 
4:20 PM
haha, tbh that’s the same way I would have reacted … except that I’m always coming here just to ask questions as well :D
today is really an exception for me, actually
(just being here to chat)
 
Everyone asks questions once in a while.
 
I make a point to ask only questions that can be answered in one or two words here.
 
People just get offended when strangers treat this as an helpdesk (not trying to say @Cicada did that).
 
(Also I must say I tried to contain myself the maximum I could to avoid trolling back, I can get quite violent.)
(So that last message is actually pure fury. lol)
@RMartinhoFernandes Yes I understand now
 
We regularly get people who ask a question here because they figure they'll get an answer faster than on SO.
 
4:24 PM
gah, enough banter. Back to the transcripts & codons for me
 
hello again. my computer had an aneurism while windows updating, but I'm back now.
 
@KonradRudolph Genomics?
 
For a moment I was wondering if that was a typoed condom.
 
@stdOrgnlDave I didn't even notice you were gone.
 
@EtiennedeMartel I didn't even notice you were here when I left
 
4:24 PM
@Cicada Spot-on. tRNA regulation, to be precise
 
Ooouuuuuh.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes It’s almost as exciting
 
raw pointers should never "own" memory? like malloc/free? I Must go look at this link
 
@KonradRudolph That's what she said, right?
 
4:26 PM
@KonradRudolph Sounds exciting! I develop an app for 3D simulation of chromosome folding on GPGPU. Not quite related but not that far either (oh well, that's relative).
 
@KonradRudolph can you link to those slides?
 
All that topic is rather scary
 
@Cicada Wait, chromosome folding. Fuck, that’s awesome.
 
tinyurl.com/fuckpointers
 
lol, apparently it’s really memorable
 
4:27 PM
See, I even made you copy the link just to be annoying.
 
@Cicada are you particularly attached to one GPU architecture and why?
 
lol, you sound like a news reporter.
 
also, does anyone want to play some terraria
 
Currently on some Fermi cards but we're gonna move to Kepler quite soon. I am not attached to any in particular. The more powerful the better.
 
not getting much use out of ATI AMD eh?
 
4:28 PM
Also I do want a gpu-side linker
Please nVidia
Do it.
 
I did a brief stint of CUDA programming some years ago, tried to parallelise a read mapping tool
 
@stdOrgnlDave No, the entire grid is composed only of nvidia cards and some hybrid intel stuff
 
didn’t really pan out, unfortunartely
 
Well CUDA has evolved a lot
 
wait who the fuck would draw_shape(new rectangle())
 
4:29 PM
I mean, it's moving real fast
 
@Cicada "hybrid intel stuff"?
 
You may want to give it a try to see how it changed
@stdOrgnlDave CPUs.
 
@stdOrgnlDave Noobs.
The slides are targeted at noobs.
 
@stdOrgnlDave You realize that actually exists in production code
 
@KonradRudolph not sure how the huge_object one is really applicable unless you're using move semantics...
 
4:31 PM
@stdOrgnlDave Nope, (N)RVO
 
Also. Completely unrelated. Has any of you worked with what I call "physician code"?
 
Concnerning the draw_shape example, that’s of course compressed for the slide, the allocation could be done elsewhere
 
Or physicist*
 
I don't trust RVO
 
@Cicada not familiar with the term
 
4:31 PM
@Cicada Well, it’s probably not as bad as biologists’ code
 
Wait, physicians are physicists are totally unrelated right?
 
@stdOrgnlDave But that’s the point of the slide. You should trust it
it makes your code better
 
@RMartinhoFernandes they are tangentially related
 
@RMartinhoFernandes excuse my frenchness. please do correct my english when I'm wrong
 
or rather, distrust in NRVO results in fucked-up code from unusable APIs
 
4:32 PM
@KonradRudolph even for classes that use pointers? :-(
 
@stdOrgnlDave yes, of course, why not?
 
@stdOrgnlDave that question makes me thing you don't understand NRVO
 
The only case where it’s not applicable is factories that return polymorphic objects – or indeed any case where a pointer/reference makes sense semantically
 
I guess I don't, never really relied on it
 
@KonradRudolph because its perfectly ok to point to something, so long as that pointer does not OWN it
 
4:33 PM
@Cicada that's going to be hard for some of us
 
@MooingDuck To sum it up, physici(an|ist) code is: perfectly working and valid code, written in a terrible way. it works and makes the assumption that the underlying machine has infinite computation power. 4 nested loops are common.
 
reading wiki
 
@Cicada haha, I've seen that
 
I've seen someone recreate the entire getopt function
 
@Cicada Oh, don't worry. I get confused by those two all time. English is silly.
 
4:33 PM
It fucking works
I have no fucking idea how
 
physician = medial doctor. physicist = scientist who works with physics
 
Okay then physicist it is! :D
 
@Cicada at school a biologoy teacher had a program that was O(n^2), which my friend and I replaced with an O(1), and she refused to use it because "it runs too fast, so it can't be right"
 
Hey, my dad is both, and he can write a good database.
 
4:35 PM
@MooingDuck Besides, any program without a progress bar can't be actually correct.
2
 
@Cicada lmao
 
@Cicada and since the N was so massive, it dropped from 55 minutes to 7 seconds. She really didn't trust it :D
 
the wiki page states that depending on the compiler options and stuff, it may or may not call the copy constructor
 
@stdOrgnlDave so?
 
But yeah, those our nested loops may be worth a few million in supercomputer contracts.
 
Xeo
4:36 PM
Argh, I want this thing to work T_T
 
@stdOrgnlDave So what? Use the optimisations. That’s the relevant option here.
 
@stdOrgnlDave There's a -fno-elide-ctors or something option on GCC. You don't use it unless you want to... Something.
 
@MooingDuck so maybe calling a copy constructor with side effects is kind of a big deal
 
@MooingDuck So this is a widespread phenomenon :D Somehow I'm glad it is.
 
Xeo
And I don't even have a Linux live image on the strick to manually replace the dll...
 
4:36 PM
@Cicada yeah, physists don't optimize at all.
 
@stdOrgnlDave Wrong. Your ctor MUST NOT have observable side effects
 
@Xeo What are you currently on?
 
otherwise it violates the standard, since the standard explicitly allows copy elision
 
@stdOrgnlDave ah, NVRO relies on copy constructors not having side effects. if it has side effects.... I see the issue now.
@KonradRudolph I don't recall that in the standard. Checking...
 
@Xeo Manually replace a dll on \Windows?
 
4:38 PM
@MooingDuck See clarification further down
 
If it were me, I'd reinstall in a snap.
 
Xeo
@Cicada: My iPod Touch
and this sucks
windows cmd command to list all drives?
 
@Xeo your computer had an aneurism too?
 
> wmic logicaldisk get name
 
Xeo
@RMartinho: That'd be my last resort
Since it's only a single dll, I want to try repairing it first
 
4:40 PM
Don't you have an install CD?
 
@KonradRudolph § 12.8/31 "When certain criteria are met, an implementation is allowed to omit the copy/move construction of a class object, even if the copy/move constructor and/or destructor for the object have side effects."
 
hold on,
 
@MooingDuck That’s why I wrote “ observable side-effect”
 
Xeo
@Cicada: I got my bootable USB with Win7 installer
 
@Xeo you can use diskpart
 
4:41 PM
If the standard doesn’t outright forbid it that’s too bad
 
so basically if you use a unique_ptr in your class, don't trust RVO
 
@KonradRudolph no, that says the class can have observable side effects, and NRVO may cause the program to act differently than expected. It's the only exception to the "as if" rule that I know of.
 
Xeo
Which I'm currently using to try and fix the dll
 
@stdOrgnlDave Why?
 
4:42 PM
but relying on said side-effects does produce UB so it’s implicit
@MooingDuck I claim that this is simply wrong (as in, logically inconsistent) in the standard then.
 
because a unique_ptr can't be copied
 
The program won't compile if a copy is attempted.
 
but what if it triest to RVO a class that contains a unique_ptr
 
But, when the criteria for copy elision is met, the expression is treated as an rvalue.
 
@stdOrgnlDave It doesn’t – copy elision still requires a working ctor
 
4:43 PM
so, it'll sometimes do it to some classes and not to others
and you want me to trust this?
 
@stdOrgnlDave No, it will do it in all cases where NRVO is applicable and a ctor is callable
 
It only makes a difference if the ctor has side effects.
What's there not to trust.
 
why not just class X; X x = new (rand()) X();
 
in all other cases the compiler will emit an error
@stdOrgnlDave Excellent example, because that also wouldn’t compile
 
@stdOrgnlDave it will do it to some classes, and fail to compile for others.
 
4:44 PM
@MooingDuck which means don't use it in my book
 
@stdOrgnlDave you still don’t understand it, do you?
 
@stdOrgnlDave I think you're misunderstanding.
 
@stdOrgnlDave that’s like saying that you cannot write any code because it won’t compile if you do it wrong
 
Xeo
uguu, that did not work...
 
Why? It's perfectly deterministic. It fails to compile only in the cases when compilation would be impossible or otherwise wrong.
 
4:45 PM
OK I need only one person to explain this to me at once. @MooingDuck I choose you because you moo
 
> C++
> Deterministic
Pick one
 
@RMartinhoFernandes doesn't that lead to inconsistent coding style if you can only use it on some classes and not others?
 
@stdOrgnlDave You can use it on any class.
 
@KonradRudolph @MooingDuck you two do know he loves to argue right
 
@stdOrgnlDave If it compiles, it does NVRO. If it can't NVRO, it wouldn't compile anyway. It's a moot point.
@johnathon yes, I'm very aware of what I'm doing.
 
4:46 PM
The only thing you can't do is have copy ctors with observable side-effects.
 
@Cicada Huh? C++ is the only language at its abstraction level that can produce completely deterministic programs.
 
so I will use NRVO until I make a class that won't compile, then use a totally different style of coding for that class
@RMartinhoFernandes unique_ptrs!!!! unique_ptrs!!!
 
You can choose not to use the heap or multithreading.
 
@stdOrgnlDave What about them?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes cannot be copied
 
4:47 PM
@Potatoswatter I am practicing my troll skill.
 
Xeo
Let's see if chkdsk can fix anything...
 
4 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
But, when the criteria for copy elision is met, the expression is treated as an rvalue.
They get moved.
 
@Cicada Then sit back, listen and learn from the master, @stdOrgnlDave
 
@Cicada Well, you win by being wrong. It's ok to be wrong here, but only if you learn something.
 
4:47 PM
hmmmm.
 
@stdOrgnlDave know what? I'm terrible at explaining, and I don't have the greatest grasp on this concept. Go with the bot.
 
And yes, move ctors change the source. But that's not observable: if you're returning from a function, the source won't be around to observe the change anymore.
 
@Potatoswatter Managed to get only 2 reactions for you, I'm not satisfied yet. Let's continue: the template system is turing complete and therefore any non-deterministic behavior can be emulated, making C++ non-deterministic.
Yes yes yes.
Logical fallacies are great.
 
@Cicada there's a definite fallacy in that statement
 
Turing machines are deterministic.
 
4:49 PM
whyu not return a shared_ptr to make_new_big_object though
 
@Xeo I doubt chkdsk will touch any file's content
 
@Cicada where is your source of non-determinism in this turing complete system? are you going to hack in actual random number collection to template metaprogramming?
 
@Xeo Or wait, what was your problem again? Corrupt sysfile?
 
@Xeo what dll is it thats barfed?
 
@stdOrgnlDave I'm just proving @KonradRudolph that the master can be defeated
 
Xeo
4:50 PM
It will repair whatever it can that's broken on the disk
 
@stdOrgnlDave predefined macros can be used to generate compile time random numbers, I've seen it
 
Xeo
maybe the dll gets fixed with that
 
@stdOrgnlDave Actually, we've already discussed that in this forum.
 
Xeo
@std: rasapi32.dll
 
40 mins ago, by Xeo
Dunno, I left my PC on as always, when I woke up it was off, and the system32/rasapi32.dll is damaged for whatever reason
 
4:51 PM
@MooingDuck but they are deterministic
@xeo what is your access to the computer?
 
Xeo
I'm sitting in front of it
 
@stdOrgnlDave .....true
 
@MooingDuck I admit nothing.
 
@Xeo it runs?
 
@stdOrgnlDave But why? Why would you add another layer of complexity to your system?
@stdOrgnlDave That’s the epitome of bad software design
 
4:52 PM
@KonradRudolph There's always a bigger fish.
 
@KonradRudolph "because NRVO might execute the observable side effects of the copy constructor" was his reasoning last I checked
 
Xeo
Yes, but during logon it complains about the dll and it seems the dll is also responsible for network stuff, my usb wlan stick doesn't work anymore
 
@RMartinhoFernandes That’s the ultimate cop-out excuse now?
 
@xeo what version of windows do you run?
 
Blame Lucas.
He deserves it.
 
Xeo
4:53 PM
win7
 
32 or 64?
 
Xeo
32bit
 
do you have access to any sort of file hasher?
 
@Xeo sounds like you got either a corrupt as a mofo registry, or a virus
 
Xeo
Man, I hate that you don't have free access to iOS harddrives...
 
4:55 PM
Any Linux live image should have that.
 
@Xeo jailbreak the device.
 
@Xeo chill it, sit back a second
 
Xeo
I don't have a livecd on my bootable USB :(
oh, chkdsk is finished
crosses fingers
 
@Xeo so you don't have network access or another computer.
 
Xeo
fuck.
 
4:56 PM
@Xeo I have memory of you saying you had a USB with tons of live images.
Maybe I'm confusing with soeone else.
 
Xeo
No, my USB only has win7 installer and ntofflinepasswd
 
@Xeo you could use the "repair" option of the win7 cd?
 
Xeo
I just tried that, no luck
 
@xeo search for rasapi32.dll
I have a spare in C:\Windows\winsxs\x86_microsoft-windows-rasapi_31bf3856ad364e35_6.1.7600.16385_none_6d0dd58db0d8c7ed
for instance
 
lol, a spare.
 
4:58 PM
yep :-P
I've got to have at least 5 of them in my c:\windows
 
Xeo
I tried copying that to system32 from the win7 installer cmdline
 
I'm going to use that next time a muggle asks me why Windows uses so much disk space. "Because it keeps spares".
 
Hi all. Is there a way in C++ to have a function with variable number of arguments, with no number of arguments known. Like void func(A *a, ...) instead of void func(int nb, ...) ?
 
Xeo
didn't work :(
 
@Quent42340 What would you do without knowing the number of arguments?
 
4:59 PM
@Xeo you went to c:\windows and typed rasapi32.dll into the search box and didn't get any hits?
 
@Xeo @stdOrgnlDave @Cicada raspai32.dll errors are commonly associated with 3 things, firstly a CORRUPT REGISTRY , secondly a nasty virus, and thirdly a botched windows update... and it's IN THAT ORDER that it occurs in frequency..
 
But you can google "variadic templates".
 
@RMartinhoFernandes A function that make a vector with the arguments
 

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