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11:00 AM
@sehe Well, I guess they stop making news out of it when it becomes normal. Also, there's rarely ever any violence in those protests. We're a peaceful people.
 
@DeadMG the UK electoral system is remarkably fucked though. Even more so than most other countries. Just like the plumbing... :)
 
heh
 
our electoral system isn't as bad as the US
at least we have three primary political parties
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Once again, shooting people may be the most apt road to change
 
sbi
11:01 AM
@TonyTheLion Usually, praise is well received.
 
@sehe The last revolution where people got shot here set us up a dictatorship.
Said dictatorship was overthrown without bloodshed and we're rather proud of that as a people.
 
@DeadMG True (you could probably find a colony of bacteria which has a better electoral system than the US), although you share some of the same flaws (as the US, not the bacteria)
 
sbi
@TonyTheLion That's actually totally wrong. Polar bears live in the northern hemisphere, penguins in the southern. So it's fairly natural that they never see each other.
 
Although I'm not really sure I grasp the UK's fascination with aristocracy. Why is it that big powerful old families with fancy titles play such a big role in your political system?
 
11:03 AM
@jalf Because they're big, powerful, and old?
 
@sbi oops. I fail at Biology.
 
sbi
@R.MartinhoFernandes "natural"
 
@jalf The 'fascination with aristocracy' is overblown. There is more 'fascination with celebrity' :(((
 
@jalf For the same reason that C++ has array-to-pointer conversion- because we gradually evolved from feudalism and haven't exactly gotten rid of all the kinks yet
 
@Ell lelelelelelele
 
11:05 AM
What?
 
hi cicada, sbi, ell
 
OMG! Expired insects!
 
Hello
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes But more so than in other countries? In most western countries they don't really have any particular formal political influence. In the UK there are things like the house of lords and it seems like people with titles just play a huge role as members of government and other important functions. I don't really recall seeing anythnig like that in other countries
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I was joking, of course. But if you want attention, there's more than a little truth. Even if only can make an old guy die of heart-attack... As long as you can claim he 'fell in protests' - bingo: media attention
 
11:05 AM
all here!
 
'mornin..
 
@jalf We give the titles to the people who play the roles.
 
@MartinJames perhaps "fascination" is the wrong word, because that implies some kind of positive "admiration" aspect. More like they're built into the whole system at a fundamental level for some reason
 
..oops.. 'afternoon:)
 
the people in the House of Lords are almost entirely those awarded to be there by the government of the time, plus a very small minority of hereditary peers and bishops and whatnot
 
11:06 AM
ah, really?
 
yep
and the Lords we have serving in our government are Lords because the previous government(s) decided they could be a Lord and then decided to have them
Lord Sugar is a Lord not because he inherited it, but because some idiot thinks he's an excellent person
 
Just decapitate everyone. Problem solved.
 
as i understand there some monetary benefit to being a lord (or lady)
 
Lord Sugar? lol
 
What are we talking about also
 
11:07 AM
@DeadCicada Worked for the French, right?
 
@DeadMG The House of Lords is a dumping ground for politicians nobody wants, abut cannot just be dumped onto the street.
 
There is something strangely poetic about those code comments. — sehe 8 secs ago
 
Sweet, they're called Lords Temporal? Sounds kind of like timelords to me :o
 
Oh, The Doctor
 
/me hums the Doctor Who theme
 
11:08 AM
@DeadCicada Europe, US, all bankrupt.
 
@MartinJames That's old news
 
The money is all gone!
To space?
 
To the time machine!
 
@MartinJames "Mr Principal, your Imminence, your Disgraces, my Thorns, Shadies and Gentledevils..."
@jalf that was an apt illustration of 'sharing' comments :)
 
@sehe The strings sound like me in the morning, trying to get out of bed while the dog is acting up and bouncing on my chest.
 
11:11 AM
@sehe Thank you for enlightening me ;)
 
There is an arena now, if you're still interested. ;)
 
@sehe Heh yeah, now you mention it
@DeadMG So what happens after the next election? They're kicked out, but keep the titles?
 
@jalf :)
 
Are both copy and move ctors generated implicitly when you don’t provide any other ctors?
 
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: The previous tag line was a lie. chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/18284/the-arena [c++] [c++11] [c++-faq]
 
11:16 AM
@TonyTheLion an lie
 
oh no
a troll
 
An French person.
 
@daknøk afaik yes
 
sbi
Anyone Dutch here right now? This might be interesting.
(Who's Dutch here anyway? @sehe & @daknøk I can think of. But there were more, right?)
 
Laws about downloading? I don’t give a fuck about them. I just download whatever I want to download.
 
11:18 AM
Oh, it's in gibberish.
 
@sbi I'm not Dutch (as in nationality) whoever I speak the language
 
You wouldn't download a CAR
5
 
Also yes, sehe and me, and also that guy from Eindhoven. I lost his name, though…
 
@DeadCicada if I could, I would.
 
@DeadCicada STFU, I would if I could.
 
sbi
11:19 AM
@TonyTheLion Ah, right. Flemish is close, isn't it?
 
@sbi yes
 
@DeadCicada Not with my bandwidth, no.
 
I can generally make sense of dutch text if I stare at it for 10-15 minutes
 
@sbi Flemish is almost identical, except it’s more beautiful and uses different wording for some things.
 
@jalf lol
 
sbi
11:20 AM
Allegedly, it's a study that shows that downloaders also spend a lot of money on what they download.
 
@jalf Bwahaha, does that work with random data sets too?
Flemish = Flamand? The northern language of Belgium?
 
I pay for all music & movies I listen to/watch.
@DeadCicada yes
 
@sbi you mean "there's". and it's true. stands to reason, those interested in X are those interested in X. don't need to be member of tautology club to grok that
 
@DeadCicada no. But Dutch is juuuuust close enough to Danish that you can mostly read one if you understand the other. As long as you're willing to spend some extra time staring at bits of it and going "what the fuck?"
 
11:21 AM
@TonyTheLion I remember I read somewhere that only copy ctors are automatically generated, not move ctors, but I got confused by the robot’s article on the rule of zero (he doesn’t define them explicitly).
 
sbi
@daknøk Yeah, this is exactly the kind of mature, sophisticated, and well-thought response my link was supposed to evoke.
 
@daknøk "Somewhere" is on MSVC.
 
@sbi you really expected anything else from this vacuum cleaner?
2
 
@jalf Oh, I didn't know they were related. So I assume you can also stare at German and understand some?
 
also wow, so many interesting posts. I'm going to wish I'd never come across this blog :(
 
11:22 AM
They're supposed to be generated, but MSVC doesn't.
 
Oh okay, cool. Thanks.
 
@daknøk there was some hoopla about it. some folks wanted automatic move constructors, and generally automatic optimization of everything. others wanted to still have control, like, correctness
 
I’m explicitly defining them everywhere, but now I realize I shouldn’t. Saves five lines per class definition.
 
@DeadCicada Not really. German differs far more. I can still pick out a number of individual words, but I can't usually understand the overall meaning
 
sbi
@DeadCicada Danish is a Northern Germanic language, Dutch and German are Western Germanic. (I can make some sense of Dutch, too, but not enough to attempt to read a scientific study.) Yours is a Latin one, and while still Indo-European, a bit more removed from Germanic.
 
11:23 AM
@jalf How about northern languages like Swedish?
 
@jalf to be honest, for me it's harder to understand Danish than it is to understand German.
 
@DeadCicada Reading them is pretty trivial. Understanding them when spoken is somewhat harder, but doable if you speak slowly
 
@sbi That's interesting! For some reason I find languages fascinating
 
Well, Danish is notoriously the difficult one among them. It's generally easier for a Dane to understand Swedish or Norwegian than the other way around
 
Wait. My class isn’t copyable since it uses std::unique_ptr, but it should be copyable. I think it’s time for wheels::value_ptr.
 
11:25 AM
@DeadCicada swedish, norwegian and danish are like dialects of the same language. the main difference is that danes talk with a potato in their throat. icelandic derives from old norwegian, a bit different
 
I can manage Swedish somewhat if I listen carefully
 
sbi
@jalf I am really surprised about that. Of course, to me, Danish and Dutch are both German-like gibberish, and thus look alike a lot. But for you to consider them closer than Danish and German seems surprising.
 
@jalf And Finnish is completely unrelated IIRC?
 
finnish is a completely different language family
 
Finnish is weird.
 
sbi
11:25 AM
@jalf Mhmm. I've heard Norwegians say the same about their language.
 
@Cheersandhth.-Alf Yeah, and Norwegians sound like they're drunk and singing :D
 
@Cheersandhth.-Alf loled @ potato
 
@DeadCicada yes Finnish has no relation. It's related to Hungarian, IIRC
 
I can understand some Danish sentences. I have a Danish friend.
 
sbi
@DeadCicada That's Finno-Uguric (or however that's written in English). IIRC, that's not even Indo-European.
 
11:26 AM
I'd love continue chatting about this but sadly I have classes in a few mins. See you!
 
sbi
@TonyTheLion Yep.
 
I have some Finnish friends, and their language sounds completely and utterly weird.
 
sbi
@jalf That's probably because they are.
 
Or to illustrate the difference /cc @Cheersandhth.-Alf and others
 
@jalf Nah. Lords are usually only replaced when previous Lords die or resign.
then the government at that time announces a list of people to replace them
 
11:27 AM
@jalf haha that's funny
 
@sbi Yeah, they definitely all three look alike. But yeah, I think we have more words in common with Dutch, and probably more similar sentence structure and grammar as well
 
sbi
@DeadCicada I remember Stroustrup explaining somewhere how to pronounce his name in Danish. He concluded with something like: "Or say it in Swedish with a (hot) potato in your mouth."
 
@sbi Really? The ones I've talked to have always made it a point of pride to point out how incomprehensible Danish is. ;)
"we can understand Swedish just fine, but what the fuck were you guys smoking when you came up with Danish?"
 
sbi
@jalf Not being a Dane, I suppose they were more honest with me. :)
 
"I'm proud that your language is impossible to understand"
 
sbi
11:29 AM
@jalf Interesting. I wonder why that is?
 
@sbi Ummm, I think there were some historical reason. We had to read some dutch in high school, and there was some explanation of why they were related. But that was quite a few years ago.... :)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I’m a bit confused about value_ptr and clone. Say I have a Node base class and a Bullet subclass, I should do this, right?
class Node {
public:
    Node* clone() { return new Node(*this); }
};

class Bullet : public Node {
public:
    Bullet* clone() { return new Bullet(*this); }
};
 
Yes, but with virtual.
 
Oh of course. Thanks!
 
Returning a unique_ptr is not a bad idea either.
If used outside of the value_ptr it doesn't leak, and the value_ptr constructor can release() the pointer and take it.
 
11:33 AM
#define DEFAULT_CLONE(T) virtual T* clone() { return new T(*this); }
// :P
 
@sbi I kind if suspect that German has just diverged more due to its size. A few hundred years ago, there weren't much difference between Danish, Dutch and (Northern) German, but as German became more unified, and picked up influences from more distant areas, it probably just diverged from that
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Oh okay. So clone is basically a copy ctor that supports polymorphism?
Like, a virtual copy ctor.
 
Yes, that's exactly what it attempts to mimic.
 
sbi
@jalf From what I remember, Dutch (and Low German) skipped some either vowel or consonant shift (I can never tell those apart) that other (Western?) Germanic language underwent at some time during the medieval ages. Maybe that kept it closer to Northern Germanic.
There's a value_ptr now? What have I missed?
 
@sbi There isn't but a lot of people here have been writing one.
 
11:35 AM
@sbi No, I think we're talking on top of common assumptions about an implementation.
 
sbi
@DeadMG What would it do?
 
@sbi Hmm, could be
Isn't there a language site on SE?
 
@sbi Provide value semantics for polymorphic classes.
 
sbi
@jalf Many. So not helpful here.
 
bah, only for individual languages, it seems
 
sbi
11:36 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ah, is that what we called a clone_ptr in the 90s?
 
@jalf Something like linguistics.SE would work if it existed.
 
oh, there is a linguistics site
 
@sbi Possibly, yes.
@jalf Oh, it exists.
 
why would you even need a clone() method?
 
Hmm. I can’t seem to get value_ptr work with incomplete types.
 
11:38 AM
My implementation doesn't need one, but it's the default protocol (only because it's so common).
 
sbi
@DeadMG In a polymorphic hierarchy, how else would you clone an object to which you only have a base class reference?
 
@sbi By not keeping a base class reference.
 
sbi
@jalf Please ping me here if you have asked the question there.
@DeadMG In a polymorphic hierarchy, how would you clone an object to which you not even have a base class reference?
SCNR.
 
I will demonstrate
 
sbi
11:41 AM
@DeadMG You will demonstrate how to clone an object to which you have no reference?
I didn't know the puppy smokes weed.
 
who said anything about a reference? it's a value ptr.
 
You need to employ type erasure somewhere. The virtual clone function is just one way of doing such erasure.
 
sbi
@DeadMG That counts as a base class reference in my book.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes is it possible to have a wheels::value_ptr<T> as a member of class T? I am getting an error saying that an incomplete type is used in a trait expression.
Or is that a bug in clang?
 
@daknøk Hmm. I think it should be possible. But I didn't test that, so I can't claim the current implementation works in that situation.
 
sbi
11:43 AM
Damn, it's fast approaching 2pm. I have the day off today, and used the morning to chill out, but my gift to my daughter's 16th birthday is to cook for her guests today. I now only have 5 hrs left to cook a three course meal for 20 people, so I'd better make fridge inventory right now, and then go shopping for ingredients.
See you!
 
@sbi Have fun.
 
Just order :))
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes ah okay.
I will work around with a base class for now.
 
@sbi Best wishes to your daughter on this big day. May she go forth into the adult world with no SQL/PHP ever. Hope food goes OK:)
2
 
struct node {
    virtual ~node() = default;
    virtual node* clone() const = 0;
    wheels::value_ptr<node> ptr;
};
Indeed, this does not compile.
 
11:48 AM
@sbi gamerix - I have a feeling I'm forgetting folks (je4d, perhaps, ...)
@MartinJames lulz
 
I skipped a few details but
no clone() required on the argument
 
I see a clone() there.
 
but not on T.
or any of it's derived classes
in fact, T doesn't even need a virtual destructor (lol)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes it seems some type traits don’t work on incomplete types.
 
@DeadMG That assumes you always pass a pointer to a most derived class.
 
11:51 AM
I always forget virtual dtors. ;_;
My code leakz.
 
@daknøk Yeah, is_polymophic cannot work with incomplete types at all. :(
 
Wait clang has warnings for non-virtual dtors.
-Weverything and I get 836 warnings where without the flag I get 0 warnings.
 
@daknøk It's a big nuissance now, actually. Generation of copy ctors when there's an explicit dtor is deprecated now.
 
What? Why?
 
So if you put a virtual destructor, you need to default the copy ctor if you want it.
 
11:53 AM
That makes no sense. (Like most of C++, but that aside.)
 
Yes, it makes rule-of-three-ish sense.
If you put a destructor, you are likely to not want default copies. So they're not generated (well, in practice they still are, but said generation is deprecated).
 
#define BOILERPLATE_CRAP(T) T(T const&) = default; T(T&&) = default; T& operator=(T const&) = default; T& operator=(T&&) = default
 
If you have a virtual dtor you will want the copy ctor/assignment protected anyway (or not at all).
 
Oh yeah of course.
Otherwise you get slicing.
 
So you would have to default it either way.
 
11:57 AM
Foo(Foo const& o) { if (typeid(o) != typeid(Foo)) throw "fuck"; } // xD
 
What's the second line for?
(Also, you don't want an assertion that will always fail)
 
I’ll just try some things out.
 
Hmm. I think that to work with incomplete types you need to make the cloner explicit.
Because the cloner is picked based on is_polymorphic, and that needs a complete type for obvious reasons.
 

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