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4:00 PM
Well, interpreting as in "go line-by-line and run functions as you go" might not qualify as compilation, but most interpreters don't do that.
 
@Potatoswatter Ok, so, if I take eval from Python, it's a compiled language?
 
It's inefficient for one.
 
Anyway… I'm defending my opinion here but I don't really want to present it as more than an opinion. These are all fuzzy lines, but I see a clear distinction between languages that generate programs that require some kind of runtime support besides a library, and those that don't.
 
What if I then implement my_eval that does the same thing?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Yes, probably so, I would say. And that's a very good way to use Python, too!
@RMartinhoFernandes Then you've built your own separate dialect of Python, essentially a self-hosting compiler.
 
4:02 PM
@Potatoswatter No, I made a Python library/module/whatever. That's not a dialect, is it?
 
I can bundle G++ in my application and generate C++ code on the fly. Not particularly practical, but doable.
The critical difference is that I can choose not to do that.
 
@Potatoswatter Isn't that what cscript does ?
 
The language explicitly allows for this alternative.
 
Euh no, script-c
 
@Potatoswatter But Java has no eval.
@Potatoswatter Oh, don't get me wrong, I can see a rough distinction there too, but it's really blurry nowadays. I think we can stop here, as we're pretty much agreeing on what's not subjective.
 
4:04 PM
a compiled language can operate without the presence of a virtual machine or interpreter on the target machine, I would say
the difference between managed and interpreted is more blurry
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Well, especially given the hardware implementations of Java, I should probably correct my stance on that one.
I would classify a just-in-time compiler as a type of interpreter, though.
Yeah, this isn't really productive. Most of us can write these kinds of programs in the first place, so we obviously know what we're talking about.
 
C++ targets an abstract machine.
 
A machine more abstract than what most imperative languages target, too…
 
Hmm, why more abstract?
Wouldn't more abstract mean, higher-level? Like the JVM?
Or am I misunderstanding?
 
Eh, maybe that's not a good descriptor. Just differently specified than something like JVM or shell script or Python or whatever.
It's intended to be an abstraction of hardware, which makes it less abstract in a big way.
 
4:11 PM
WTF, I wrote "more higher".
 
I still maintain that C++ is a higher language than Java
 
Ell
:O
 
Not more abstract.
(You're not gonna pull a personal definition of "abstract" as well, are you? :P)
 
no
 
I think I'm gonna give up on reducing "abstraction" to one dimension ;v)
 
Ell
4:12 PM
i thought abstract and higher level were the same
 
not even remotely related
higher level languages offer the programmer more practical choice than lower level languages
 
@Ell Shh, yes, they're related, just don't tell that to the puppy ;)
 
C++ is more uncertain about what values the native types can store, and what native operations do.
That is a kind of abstraction not found in "higher-level" languages.
 
@Potatoswatter That's abstraction. Seems like there isn't a total ordering of languages based on abstraction.
 
Abstraction is abstract!
 
4:14 PM
Everything is blurry.
Blur ALL the things!
 
2 mins ago, by Potatoswatter
I think I'm gonna give up on reducing "abstraction" to one dimension ;v)
 
Ell
but to think higher level, abstraction is nessesary
i always thought anyway
 
that's not at all true
 
Ell
okay well im not going to get into this cus im a noob
 
Abstraction of abstraction is what separates people from animals. We can think about thinking.
 
Ell
4:15 PM
but i thought thinking higher level meant placing low level details away from you
and abstraction also happens to forget about low level details
but i dont know
 
no
thinking higher level means giving you the ability to do what you want
 
Ell
?
 
how that's achieved is another story
 
Ell
i dont quite understand that
 
@Ell How many times can you do 1+1+1+1… before you get back to 0 (if ever)? Is that a high-level or low-level detail?
 
Ell
4:17 PM
that is a low level detail
i think :O
 
Well, most commonly thought of as "high-level" languages tell you that explicitly.
C++ doesn't.
 
Ell
which makes c++ high level?
 
I don't know.
 
Ell
i think the reason c++ doesnt
 
Again, I don't find that a clear-cut distinction.
 
4:18 PM
We've gone from one subjective discussion, to this…
 
Ell
anyway
yes i think i best leave this to the experts :P
 
C++ is high level because you can choose whether you want to program with generics, or with functions (e.g. lambdas) or objects
you can choose whether to manage memory manually, or even use a GC or smart pointers
 
That's "multi-paradigm"… don't know about high level.
 
Ell
yes
 
they are the same
 
4:19 PM
Not. But I had this discussion before, I'll leave it to the others.
 
Ell
actually i would call that low level
 
You can do a lot of things with a good macro assembler. A high-level assembler is still the definition of low level.
 
although I could argue that more choice within a single paradigm would be more effective than choosing between some crappy implementations of many paradigms
 
Ell
because you have to think about these details
 
@Ell: Oh noes, programming is about choosing.
When you write a program, you have to make a choice. That's how programming works. If you don't want to make a choice, then don't write programs.
 
Ell
4:20 PM
but i think
in high level
 
the more choices you have, the higher level you are
 
Ell
no
i think the opposite
for example
 
let me ask you
 
Ell
having to think about memory management
means you are going more low level, towards the hardware
 
how can Java possibly be a higher-level language than C++ when you have no lambdas?
 
Ell
4:21 PM
whereas high level, you can forget about that detail
 
there are massive amounts of functional APIs out there which you can never express in jAVA
 
Perl has choices every freaking where. One of the language's mottos is "There's More Than One Way To Do It".
 
in C++, you can forget about memory management too
that's what smart pointers are for
 
@DeadMG So you want to implement red-black tree balancing across all datatypes in Smalltalk, because Smalltalk is good at its chosen paradigm?
 
Ell
but the fact you have to think about memory at all means you are going more low level
 
4:22 PM
@Potatoswatter Error: did not compute
 
@DeadMG Well, there is a way to implement that in Java.
 
@Ell No, the fact that I have a choice about thinking about memory means that I'm going higher
 
Syntax is verbose as hell, but it's there.
 
Ell
in java, you dont need to think about memory (ignoring leaky abstractions)
 
Lambdas in Java 7 were mostly a syntax convenience for certain kinds of anonymous inner classes.
 
4:23 PM
@DeadMG eh, nvm. I think I misunderstood you.
 
@Ell You certainly do
the machine you're running on has finite physical memory
and accessing non-contiguous memory is just as slow from Java's perspective as C++
 
That's an example of a leaky abstraction.
 
the difference is that C++ offers you tools to cope with this, and Java doesn't
 
Ell
exactly, and i explicitly said ignore leaky abstractions
its impossible to abstract everything away
 
the whole language is a leaky abstraction
2
 
Ell
4:24 PM
there will always be leaks
 
hence it's kind of hard to ignore leaky abstractions
 
Ell
its impossible for there not to be leaks
 
Java is more enterprise. It offers you a mainframe to run on.
 
when discussing the language
 
Have you noticed the mentions of a hardware JVM?
 
4:25 PM
Uh, who starred "but I think" ?
 
What is that "abstraction" leaking?
@kbok I did. It's a witty comment.
 
Ell
not me
i dont think :O
 
well, the hardware JVM still has finite memory, and presumably, it will still be slower to access non-contiguous memory and all those other things
 
@RMartinhoFernandes lol
 
having JVM bytecode direct is not going to change how the underlying CPU works, in terms of caches, memory, that sort of thing
 
4:26 PM
If you worry about memory what kind of program are you writing in the first place?
 
Ell
@DeadMG i wasnt in the hardware JVM part of the convo :P
 
As long as the human race continues manufacturing hard drives faster than they break, the total available storage increases without bound.
 
Doesn't the same apply to the C++ abstract machine?
 
sure, and I never said it didn't
the difference is that C++ provides tools to cope with it
 
@Potatoswatter There's a bound. You can't beat thermodynamics :(
 
4:28 PM
So, for a program that runs slowly enough not to get a runtime error, on a computer that you can keep upgrading without stopping it, the amount of storage is countably infinite.
 
@DeadMG Just because it gives you a plumber's kit, that doesn't make it less leaky.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Conquer other planets! Turn them into hard drives!
 
a leaky abstraction suggests that the abstraction is intended to deal with that in the first place
 
@Potatoswatter That doesn't beat the damn thermodynamics :(
 
man
 
Ell
4:29 PM
@DeadMG "a leaky abstraction suggests that the abstraction is intended to deal with that in the first place" << can you please rephrase?
 
Anyway C++ can't give you infinite memory.
 
my post on Programmers is up to 156 upvotes
 
My theoretical computer does grind to ever slower speeds due to thermodynamics, but it never stops and you can always add more storage.
 
@Ell If you have an abstraction that is supposed to abstract detail X and doesn't, then that's a leak
but it can't leak detail X if it was never intended to abstract detail X in the first place
 
Ell
no
 
4:29 PM
@Potatoswatter It stops. When entropy reaches the maximum, it's over.
 
Ell
hmm well yes
 
@RMartinhoFernandes What, the heat death of the universe? That's a long way off.
 
@Potatoswatter I remember you mentioning something about forever.
 
Not to mention not a proven physical reality.
 
Ell
but a leaky abstraction works until a certail level when it breaks down
for example the TCP protocol guarantees the delivery of a packet
and for the most time, it does
but if a mouse were to chew through the wire, it cant, so the abstraction has leakd
 
4:31 PM
@Potatoswatter It doesn't matter if it ends with a heat death or something else. AFAIK they're all compatible with ever increasing entropy.
 
Ell
(this is all coppied from that blog i read once....)
 
pretty sure that it only guarantees to deliver a packet based on the guarantees of the levels below it
 
@Potatoswatter lolwut
 
Ell
no
 
@RMartinhoFernandes As I said, the computer runs ever slower and slower. Unless the universe ends, in theory it can keep going though.
 
Ell
4:32 PM
well anyway im bored of this arguing
so im giving up, you win DeadMG
:D
 
@Potatoswatter But entropy increase implies that you can store less and less data on your hard drives each time, because storing data is basically preventing entropy from increasing.
 
@Ell I always win.
 
Ell
lols
 
except where my university course is considered
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Ah, hadn't thought of that.
 
4:34 PM
where I don't even want to enter the competition
 
@Potatoswatter You can't beat that bitch :(
 
Ell
guys, i need help with something
 
@DeadMG TCP retransmits until the recipient acknowledges receipt of the packet
 
@Ell No, I will not help you move your furniture.
;)
 
TCP/IP is designed to be hardware independent
 
Ell
4:36 PM
i have a class that gives access to a static vector of Monitor classes which is a class that allows getting x and y resolution and stuff
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Only way to beat entropy is to die a relatively painless death, not caused by being the wrong temperature or deprived of energy.
 
Ell
to get a monitor instance you call Monitor::getMonitor(int number)
and this lazy initialised an instance in the private vector or fetches one
when should the Monitor instances be deleted?
should the user decide?
hmm il just ask on the "site proper"
 
i remember in secondary school, the teacher expelled me from the classroom when i said entropy didn't make sense.
 
currently Darwin uses a modified FreeBSD 5, this is from 2003 so it is quite old
 
@AlfPSteinbach Your momma doesn't make sense :P
 
4:38 PM
why?
 
Damn, the Russians lost an unmanned Soyuz. Crashed into the ocean.
 
but you're right, she often doesn't make sense. former politician. they don't make sense. :-)
 
@Potatoswatter When?
 
@AlfPSteinbach Increasing the entropy of student locations in the process!
 
Ell
right, i dont understand
how one programme can work on another computer with a different processor
because assembly isn't cross platform?
 
anyway, it wasn't how i thought of it then, but the fact that laws of physics have no time direction, means that if you take any state of system, entropy should increase in both time directions. so any state is lowest entropy of system. it's sort of a contradiction.
he he
 
1
Q: Is assembly code cross-platform?

wamp0x042444FF; /* inc dword ptr [esp+4] */ 0x042444FF is the machine code,while inc dword ptr [esp+4] is the assembly code, I know machine code is NOT cross-platform,as it depends on many factors. What about assembly code, does it depends on CPU ?

 
@AlfPSteinbach The 2nd law of thermodynamics is well-known for being the sole law of the commonly accepted physics framework that requires a specific time direction.
 
@Ell Different processor as in different architecture? (Also most programs aren't translated down to assembly, I assume you mean binary here.)
 
4:43 PM
@Ell Java code works on multiple architectures because of the JVM.
 
Everything else is time-reversible.
 
Ell
waait a minute, binary isnt the same as assembly?
 
of course not
 
mebbe. but it is meant to be just a statistical consequence of lower level laws. so, still contradiction.
 
Ell
so, what is binary code?
 
4:44 PM
@Ell no, are you serious?
 
Ell
or is binary code the same as machine code?
 
@Ell As an example, consider that GNU Assembly can be compiled for several architectures.
 
@Ell An "application binary" is a file containing binary code among other things, usually specific to an OS platform.
 
I believe that the BIOS writes microcode
or maybe the OS does
 
Ell
and binary code is machine code?
as in, directly run by the processor?
 
4:44 PM
Microcode is in CPU firmware.
 
@AlfPSteinbach I remember being convinced it wasn't a contradiction by Roger Penrose, but I don't remember why :(
 
@Ell In parlance I'm familiar with, yep.
 
I'll have to check it out sometime again.
 
@Ell Yes.
 
:) you've read my blog!
 
Ell
4:45 PM
well i understand the difference between assembly and machine code
 
@AlfPSteinbach You're talking to me?
 
@CatPlusPlus Some microcode is firmware, some is hardware.
 
@Ell Unless you're running a machine that uses ternary :P
 
Ell
(im just going to google for a couple of hours :P)
 
4:46 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes You sly fox.
 
Ell
and hmm what logic gates apply to ternary?
0 and 1 and 2
O_o
 
The ternary logic ones!
 
It's a bit obvious ;)
 
anyway i thought this was pretty funny when i wrote it. others also thought so.
 
@AlfPSteinbach I'll bookmark it.
He seems like a smart person. I'd like to be smarter than him.
 
4:48 PM
Well, some logic families use complementary pairs of signals. And if the signals have the same value that has another meaning.
 
A while back, when discussing base e here, we learned that base 3 is the most radix efficient integral base.
 
You could say "don't know yet" is another value in addition to 0 and 1 in such a system. For that matter VHDL defines something like 8 "truth values", I forget though.
 
@Ell uhm, IF and ELSE, meaning A or B
 
Some folks in the early days tried it out, but binary won for some reason.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes "radix efficient"?
 
4:49 PM
@CodeMonkey IF logic gate?
 
Ell
an if logic gate is just... a straight line
 
@CatPlusPlus I said meaning A OR B.
 
Ell
or branched with a not then logic for an else clause
 
Sorry, radix economic.
Various proposals have been made to quantify the relative costs between using different radices in representing numbers, especially in computer systems. Definition The radix economy E(b,N) for any particular number N in a given base b is equal to the number of digits needed to express it in that base, multiplied by the radix: : :E(b,N) = b \lfloor \log_b (N) +1 \rfloor \, . : The radix economy measures the cost of storing or transmitting the number N in base b if the cost of each "digit" is proportional to b. A base with a lower average radix economy is therefore, in some senses, more ef...
I don't know what it means.
 
Base 1 is the best.
 
Ell
4:51 PM
lol
0000000000000000000000000000000000000000
 
Not very economic.
 
yes it is
0
 
@RMartinhoFernandes thx
 
@hexa What number is that?
 
4:52 PM
all the numbers of base 1
all of them
 
What about 00.
 
all your bases are belong to us
 
The usual convention is to represent 0 in "unary" as the empty string…
 
but more precisely cost of each digit should be log(b) not proportional to b
 
@hexa A numeral system that is not unambiguous is of little use.
 
4:55 PM
Depends man, what about quantum computing
 
What about it?
 
0 is 70% of the time 0
 
Not how it works.
 
And 0 the other 30%.
 
If you determine it to be 0, it's 0.
 
4:56 PM
50% of the time, it works all the time!
We need a new topic.
 
thats not how wave equations work at all martinho.
 
@CatPlusPlus That's what it says on the topic.
 
Ell
how about, what would your perfect language be (static typed? dynamic? interpretted? compiled? etc.)
 
@hexa 0 seems like a definite value to me, not a wavefunction.
 
Ell
discus...
;)
 
4:57 PM
yes, let's bitch about how writing GUI code takes enormous amounts of time
 
Ell
CEGUI FTW!
 
"but it's just a couple of line edits and two buttons"
so my boss says
 
Your boss is one of those that thinks programming is typing things on a keyboard?
 
my boss is old-school electronic engineering
 

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