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3:06 PM
@hexa Oh capptain, my capptain!
 
i always thought that was pretty weird
maybe andrei bought an old whatsitcalled-bird from a sailor
 
What the heck are you guys talking about?
 
i think fred and hexa are talking about 200 point rep cap
i was talking about modern c++ design :-)
the cap is per day
i meant, i thought fred hexa and you were talking about rep cap, not?
or perhaps not fred
 
Yes, but what's C++ design got to do with it? You're trying to confuse me even more?
I'm warning you, you don't want to see me confused.
 
that was fred's "oh capptain, my capptain!". andrei really liked them birdie examples.
 
3:10 PM
@AlfPSteinbach I was talking about rep cap indeed.
 
Oh, that line is supposed to be a parrot talking or something?
 
ah, blue norwegian parrot, yes, panting for the fjords
 
Is andrei hexa?
 
probably not. :-) he's alexandrescu. of I think Washington U. and the silly-player-company and Facebook
and working on D with Walther Bright
 
My name is Decimal. Hex Decimal. I like my bits shifted, not ror'd.
@AlfPSteinbach Is Walter as bright as his name makes him sound?
I always find it funny how he uses HTML for presentations :)
 
3:13 PM
@FredOverflow Genious, even though nonsensical.
 
yes, he sort of one-armedly coded Zortech C++ compiler
 
I think he's even brighter than his name reveals.
 
He shines?
 
elvis meets bond, all shook up, disturbing
 
He's one of those stupid new vampires?
 
3:14 PM
Do vampires procreate? Or has every vampire formerly been a normal human?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Yeah, but not in the visible spectrum. So no sunglasses are required.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Yeah, it's complete nonsense, all I did was apply a pattern. Oh wait...
 
I think vampires are human with a disease. The disease procreates using humans.
 
@StackedCrooked Does he shine infrared or ultraviolet?
 
And I should have written "genius".
I blame @Alf for confusing me.
 
3:16 PM
@FredOverflow That's what I like to know myself.
But he doesn't allow measuring it.
 
Are muslim vampires affected by crosses?
 
Yes, but they don't like to talk about it.
 
I am considering buying a MacBook. I've never used any mac, and I am not fond of apple's line of work, but those notebooks seem very well built and perform really good.
 
Hi
 
Anyone has anything to say against it?
 
3:18 PM
It has a glowing apple on the back.
 
@hexa Have you considered buying a good PC instead ?
 
I have a good pc
very good actually
 
I wouldn't buy MB just because it uses OSX.
 
So, you just want to try something else ?
 
but i need a notebook, my last one has been broken for years
@kbok yeah, kinda that too
it's based on linux why would OSX suck cat?
 
3:19 PM
What are the specs of that thing, anyway?
OSX is not based on Linux.
 
Maybe you could just install OSX on a PC.
 
it is
 
It has nothing to do with Linux.
 
go do your research
 
Linux is not the correct umbrella term to refer to that kind of thing.
 
3:19 PM
It isn't. Is has bits of BSD in it, but that's all.
 
It's based on old, old BSD.
 
oh ok. its *nix based.
 
And probably not much left of that in there.
 
OSX is certified unix.
 
Still not Linux.
 
3:20 PM
I heard there also are parts of GNU Mach.
 
That's a bit like saying BSD is based on old, old bsd. They forked a long time ago but it was never abandoned.
 
Well, Linux is not certified UNIX AFAIR.
 
anyway, why it sucks mr cat?
 
Wouldn't certification be very un-OSS?
 
There's been a fork of the POSIX standard made so that Linux could conform to something.
 
3:21 PM
I'm not sure it's fully compliant.
 
hah!
90% LOSIX compliant
 
> Darwin is built around XNU, a hybrid kernel that combines the Mach 3 microkernel, various elements of BSD (including the process model, network stack, and virtual file system),[5] and an object-oriented device driver API called I/O Kit.
 
So, it's based no a mish-mash of stuff.
Mashed apples, basically.
 
A hybrid kernel is a microkernel that has been modified in a way that makes it now huge and bloated.
 
And I'm pretty sure the Mach in there is not the GNU one, that'd force Darwin to be GPL.
 
3:24 PM
It is what it is. I just wish that C++ named locales worked.
 
Hybrids are fiiiiiiiine.
 
@CatPlusPlus I think GNU Mach and Mach 3 from OSX are descendent of a old BSD beast.
 
After the Mach guy left school, he went to NeXT and he's been Steve's kernel guy ever since.
 
@Potatoswatter lol, yeah, that sucks
 
@CatPlusPlus I think Darwin is open source. not sure if it's under GPL or some other license
 
3:26 PM
I remember having to rewrite a "toupper" utility function because locale("") didn't work on Mac.
 
It's not GPL, it's some Apple custom license.
 
but anyway, afaik, Darwin feels like *nix
so I'd be very comfortable with the CLI
and darwin is posix right?
 
What's available on CLI isn't really related to kernel being Unix.
 
What CLI? What are you talking about? Just use the Dock dammit!
 
3:27 PM
Terminal is in my dock.
 
Drag and drop icons on Trash to do stuff.
 
Actually launching apps is faster using Spotlight.
 
Oh, the confusion.
 
They should make it so when you drag and drop Trash on Trash, your PC explodes.
 
Well, darwin feels like unix as much as msys does.
 
3:28 PM
That would certainly make more sense than ejecting CD via this.
 
@kbok You mean, almost, but not quite, entirely unlike UNIX?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes exactly. :)
 
@CatPlusPlus Via what?
Plus, what's a CD?
 
christian democrat
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Via drag & drop of an icon onto Trash. :P
 
3:30 PM
CompactDisc
 
Certificate of Deposit. Some banks have begun ejecting CD's.
 
@CatPlusPlus What? You can do that?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I have to tweet that.
 
ChangeDirectory
 
It's a bigger floppy.
 
3:30 PM
talking about cd's... this macbook doesn't seem to support blu-ray discs
 
It could also be a hybrid language of C and D.
 
@kbok Go ahead. I'm not the original author, though.
 
Ya know they "fixed" that some time ago, upon beginning a drag of a storage icon the trash turns into an eject button.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Do you know where it's from ?
 
Oh the workarounds you have to invent because your mouse has only one button.
 
3:31 PM
@hexa Apple won't pay Sony.
 
@kbok The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. The original used "tea".
@CatPlusPlus It doesn't.
 
@Potatoswatter really? that's what i hate about apple
 
@RMartinhoFernandes It did.
 
"my way or the fucking highway"
 
At least that's what my Mac-using friends tell me. It's just aesthetically one button, but two buttons underneath.
 
3:31 PM
Blu-ray is not Apple-certified.
 
@hexa There's a highway for that?
 
A highway to hell.
 
Since they've gotten big, it's started to work. LOL, I'm happy they're killing Flash, at least.
 
oh yeah ;)
 
Do Mac mice still only have one button? :)
 
3:32 PM
brb, food
 
Still, I don't like nearly every bit of OSX UI, nor Objective-C crap underneath.
 
@FredOverflow According to my friends, in aesthetic terms, they have one button, but functionally there's two underneath.
 
More like subjective-C crap? :)
 
You just press more to the left or to the right.
 
They took C and Smalltalk and they thrown them out of the window and created Obj-C.
 
3:33 PM
The Apple Mouse (formerly Apple Mighty Mouse) is a multi-button USB mouse manufactured and sold by Apple Inc.. It was announced and sold for the first time on August 2, 2005, and a Bluetooth version was available from 2006 to 2009. Before the Mighty Mouse, Apple had sold only one-button mouses with its computers, beginning with the Apple Lisa 22 years earlier. On October 20, 2009, the wireless Mighty Mouse was discontinued and replaced by the multi-touch Magic Mouse. The wired version of the device remains available, but was renamed the "Apple Mouse" as of the same date, due to trademark...
Since 2005.
 
I use a two-button Logitech mouse on my Mac. Don't really like the magic mouse.
 
Is Objective C a real language or just a preprocessor?
 
The Magic Mouse is a multi-touch mouse manufactured and sold by Apple, and it was announced and sold for the first time on October 20, 2009. The Magic Mouse is the first consumer mouse to have multi-touch capabilities. Taking after the iPhone, iPad, iPod Touch, and multi-touch trackpads, the Magic Mouse allows the use of gestures such as swiping and scrolling across the top surface of the mouse to interact with desktop computers. It connects via Bluetooth and runs on two AA batteries. The mouse requires at least Mac OS X 10.5.8. It can be configured as a two-buttoned left-handed or righ...
 
@FredOverflow How'd you define a preprocessor?
 
I'd consider it a real language.
 
3:35 PM
@CatPlusPlus If syntax and semantic errors are reported by the C compiler, then it's a preprocessor.
 
The funny thing is that the platform has always used a lot of "chording" alt, shift, control, and command with the button.
 
Even if the frontend would output C, it's still as real as languages get.
 
I used to use a 4-button trackball with Mac OS 9, and all 4 buttons saw regular usage.
 
@FredOverflow Any language can be compiled down to C, and then again with C compiler to assembly. That's terribly arbitrary definition.
 
@FredOverflow So if I had an intermediate layer that catches all errors and report 'Try again.' instead then it's a real language?
 
3:36 PM
You really think all those Photoshop/Illustrator pro's have been using 1-button mice?
 
@CatPlusPlus C with classes was a preprocessor (at least initially), while C++ has always been a compiler (that chose to spit out C code in the early days).
 
@LucDanton What's a real language ? Is VB.NET a real language ?
 
@kbok Don't ask me.
 
@FredOverflow Why was it a preprocessor? Because it was compiled to C?
 
ObjC is light on language semantics and heavy on runtime support. Similar to C# but with less original syntax.
 
3:38 PM
PyPy compiles RPython to C. Is it a preprocessor?
 
@CatPlusPlus No, because there was no compiler at all. C with classes was a simple Token replacer.
 
ObjC is good for application-level code.
 
@Potatoswatter C# syntax is more original? I disagree.
@FredOverflow C with classes was a tool then?
Wasn't there a "C with classes" language also?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes ...the original implementation of C with classes, then.
 
You know, the language that the tool compiled down to C?
 
3:39 PM
If it translates from one language to another, it's a compiler.
 
On the other hand, there was never a preprocessor that took C++ code and transformed it into C code on a token basis. C++ has always been a compiled language.
 
C++ is not a compiled language.
 
@CatPlusPlus Bjarne would disagree.
 
It's not a property of a language. C++ interpreters exist, too.
 
WTF is a compiled language?
You can have compiled programs.
 
3:40 PM
A compiled language is a language for which at least one compiler exists.
 
A compiler is a translator.
 
Then PHP is a compiled language.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes A language for which a compiler exists. Most languages with an eval operator don't qualify.
 
(Not to mention that most interpreters are compilers, too.)
 
@Potatoswatter Python has compilers.
 
3:41 PM
(And virtual machines.)
Java has a runtime compiler.
 
Those kinds of languages aren't my thing, but if you need to eval at runtime, the compiler needs to install a copy of itself into the binary.
 
So you can make eval.
 
Or, eval'ed code isn't compiled, and it will run slower than the rest of the program.
 
Go, too.
 
@Potatoswatter It can be.
A perfectly valid implementation can JIT-compile eval'd strings.
 
3:43 PM
Then either the JIT is in the application binary, or the language is effectively interpreted because the JIT needs to be separately installed.
 
@Potatoswatter Ok, please define interpreted and compiled.
 
The point is, interpreters and compilers don't differ too much, and any language can be implemented as both.
 
compile comes from Latin compilare: plunder or plagiarize
 
Als
hmm..goddamn i left you guys alone for a day and seems you are playing with the room title
 
Nowadays, it's really hard to make a distinction between the two.
 
3:45 PM
I usually call something with an integrated VM and immediate bytecode execution an interpreter.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I would say that a compiled program is one that can be run without an interpreter present. Is a JIT an interpreter? I would say so. But I guess that's just my opinion.
 
@CatPlusPlus That's a JIT-compiler without caching :P
 
But those has compilers underneath as well.
@RMartinhoFernandes It could cache! :P
@Potatoswatter How is JIT an interpreter? It outputs machine code that CPU interprets.
 
@CatPlusPlus Wouldn't that make it a compiler? What would it cache? The compiled product of the bytecode, no?
 
@CatPlusPlus An interpreter is a program that takes program code at runtime and runs it.
 
3:47 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes Well, I said it's a compiler underneath, didn't I. :P
 
@Potatoswatter The usual Java and .NET JITs don't run program code.
They compile it to machine code.
 
The difference between an parse-and-loop interpreter and a JIT is very blurry indeed.
 
Interpreters that don't compile to bytecode are rare.
 
Compiling it to machine code is just one way of running it - the optimal way. And it's not really that different from compiling to bytecode, which isn't really that different from any other method.
On the other hand, making sure everything will work without any extra help once the build process is done, is more distinct IMHO.
 
So you'd say Java is an interpreted language?
That doesn't fall under the usual "distinction" (which I disdain, but that's another issue).
 
3:50 PM
Yep. Java bytecode.
 
@Potatoswatter What about emulators?
 
Well, there have been hardware implementations of Java bytecode, too.
 
If I compile something and run it on DOSBox, did it become interpreted?
 
Yes, I think that's fairly obvious.
DOSBox served as an interpreter from one language to another. So what?
 
It's not a characteristic of the language, or even the implementation?
 
3:53 PM
The only thing characteristic of the language is that it can be compiled.
 
Can you name one that can't?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes It's a characteristic of the implementation -- the whole implementation (which could include things like VMs/hypervisors).
 
Languages with eval, as I said, generally cannot because they can always generate more source.
 
@JerryCoffin Good point there.
@Potatoswatter But they can! Just embed a compiler in the compiled product!
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Probably none that truly can't be compiled at all -- but some that are extremely difficult to compile in a meaningful way. SNOBOL and APL fairly leap to mind -- but languages like that seem to have been something of a dead-end.
 
3:55 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes And I can write a custom JIT in my C++ program, too. Then I'm running a custom interpreted language on a custom JIT. That doesn't make the C++ part interpreted.
 
Ell
the only true compiled language is written in hardware and logic gates :P
 
But why does it make Python interpreted? Because that JIT is in the standard library?
@Ell Where's the compilation in that?
 
@Potatoswatter If you embed a compiler and use that to compile code at runtime, it's still compiled. No one says all the compilation has to happen at, well, compile-time
 
Ell
good point actually. I was being silly but i would probably say from schematic to manufactor
 
What about FPGAs? :P
 
Ell
3:58 PM
is that field programmable gate array?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Because the program file requires a static native program to be run. The JIT is a distinct component from the user's code. It can be upgraded or replaced.
 
@jalf At run-time, it's compile-time for the new code!
 
Every time is a runtime!
 
@Potatoswatter It doesn't require that.
It's a common implementation, but not really necessary.
 
Ell
now I know I'm a complete noob and all, but as I see it, interpreting is just late compilation
 
3:59 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes Merely bundling them together doesn't change the conceptual distinction.
 

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