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7:02 PM
@MartinhoFernandes Useful. Interesting. I no longer find the number 4 useful....
So I've finally got someone to admit it.
 
Math is a useful modeling tool, no more no less. There is no truth in math, only perception.
I find the reciprocal of zero very useful....
 
Example.
 
x/y * y/x
otherwise inconsistent
 
@Xaade what is going on in that C++ interview question, man?
 
7:04 PM
People assuming meaning in comments and deploying political nonsense.
 
How useful is that expression?
 
@Xaade It seems he took it pretty personal. I have just seen this questions before and wasn't trying to insult anyone. Providing a bit of context
 
i has interesting properties that make it easier to reason about spatial rotations for example.
It's also heavily used in quantum theory, but I know you don't "like" that one.
 
Als
@Xaade: suggest you to not speculate
 
I'm offended when a citizen burns a countries flag, yet I don't have the political popularity to turn my outrage into political pulpit.
 
7:06 PM
Quaternions use three different imaginary units: i, j, and k.
 
@Als Then let's tear down statistics.... in case that offends someone.
 
I flagged the comments.. It got way out of hand beyond what it was intended.
 
Als
@Xaade: I if by that you mean deleting the comments, I am up for it, In the first place those comments should not have been there
 
@Xaade To which I say there is no truth in perception, as it's only a reference point.
 
I don't get your drift man.
 
7:08 PM
there is no spoon
 
@hexa That's basically my drift.
 
If I produce scientific evidence that Caucasians are less intelligent, should I throw it away.
 
@Xaade Depends on your definition of intelligence.
 
I think it's best to walk away from this one. Sorry if I offended anyone.
 
Als
@OAOD I suggest we delete those comments and call it over?
 
7:09 PM
Two things need to happen, everything after my second comment needs to be deleted.
 
@Als I am deleting mine.
 
Second, everyone needs to get their fucking emotions off their sleeve.
 
I missed something, and I think I'm glad about it.
 
Als
@Xaade: Two things will happen, those comments will get deleted and you my friend should control the language
 
The ONLY reason I suggest the comments get deleted is that this is SO, not Facebook. There's no reason to mention the difference between any countries company practices in a generalization.
 
Als
7:11 PM
@0A0D: I will delete mine.
 
I think everyone needs to take a deep breath :)
 
Als
@Xaade: Exactly, and so the Q of origins should not be raised at all
@TonyTheTiger: Hey precious :)
 
It seems I started it by speculating the user is Indian. Again, sorry if that offended anyone.
 
@Als As long as the question itself has nothing to do with origin, then I agree.
 
I have seen such speculation before.. didn't see a problem with it.
until now
 
7:12 PM
But if I have a blog and I question whether outsourcing to Russia is a good thing because productivity slows down.... those type of comments are fair game.
 
Als
@Xaade: I am just against branding ppl or places, what is correct is correct what is wrong is wrong, no need to involve other things
 
@Als hello, how are you?
 
@Xaade Also, there is no reciprocal to zero in our most commonly used number sets, but if you want to start using modular arithmetic, you can get some zero divisors. I doubt it would be all that useful useful to do so. You can abstract up whatever you want using math.
 
@0A0D No, the problem is that there are too many people who get offended and pretend that everyone should cater to their emotions. Therefore, to keep things civil to avoid embarrassment from immaturity, I simply avoid those topics in general.
 
Als
@TonyTheTiger: Good and how are you? back from the trip?
 
7:14 PM
I have a different reason, but the result is the same.
A good little utilitarian would accept that :)
 
Als
@Xaade: You are making an undue argument against me, without knowing if I am being that way
 
Life is too short, let's all drink virtual beers and move along :)
 
@Als I'm sorry... I thought you'd pick up the sarcasm. I should use bigger Smileys
 
Would that make us virtually drunk?
 
@MartinhoFernandes It's Friday for me already :) I have tomorrow off. It's 5 o'clock somewhere
 
Als
7:16 PM
@Xaade: Sorry If i misunderstood. I am holding nothing against anyone & not even political type for that matter
@0A0D, @Xaade: lets put curtains to it, deleting all those comment bringing out nasty emotions amongst us. I have already deleted mine.
 
@Als I didn't write anything nasty just referencing the country of origin, so I deleted those comments.
 
@Als I understand. But your reasons are the same as mine. 1. Too many people act immature when generalizations come into place. 2. There's no reason for those comments because they are off-topic. So you avoid it like the plague because it only creates headaches. My point is that the reason it causes headache is because there are people who feel they're entitled to not getting their feelings hurt.
 
woosa
 
@Als yes! I had a great time :)
 
Als
@Xaade, @0A0D: I guess we all learn something from this, and move on wiser.
@TonyTheTiger: cool, So back to work on monday is it?
 
7:20 PM
@Als yep, back to work it is :)
 
HAHAHA.... I learned life's a bleep.
 
@Als Now if countries could resolve their disputes this way, there wouldn't be wars.. or a debt ceiling problem ;)
 
Als
@0A0D: :) lets drink to that :)
 
Actually the problem is that countries want to pretend to resolve their problems this way while still holding a knife behind their back. Par Debt ceiling it apparently applies to political parties as well.
 
Als
@TonyTheTiger: nice..feel jealous of your trip
:P
@Xaade: Only if countries wished to make peace & resolve problems for real they would ...there is too much politics at stake to not do so
 
7:23 PM
@Als heheh :)
 
Als
@TonyTheTiger: You travelled with friends, family or someone special, tiger?
 
@Als I traveled alone, though I have a lot of friends where I went
 
I think everyone here realizes that the debt ceiling problem isn't a problem at all in context of the political debate. The goal is to get your party what it wants while looking like the other party is reluctant to solve the problem. Republicans want the Democrats to look like they won't reduce spending when (where can they without committing political suicide). Democrats want Republicans to look like they won't raise the ceiling without keeping their precious tax-breaks for the rich.
 
Als
@TonyTheTiger: Nice, been a while since i travelled anywhere
 
looks like a serious discussion has been going on
 
7:25 PM
Truth is, both sides do the same thing.... get money to their friends, while looking like they care for the little people.
 
Als
@Collecter: It's always serious non C++ discussions in this c++ chat room! :P
 
 
For example, health care bill was a mechanism to get the middle class on the government's tab so the government has some welfare control in middle class' life, without actually offering anything of value. Meaning, now the government has the middle class without offering it costly medicare/welfare/etc.
 
Als
0
Q: vector<double> faster than double*: why?

HectorHere's a loop that I've tried with std::vector and with plain old double*. For 10 million elements, the vector version consistently runs in about 80% of the time that the double* version takes; for pretty much any value of N, vector is notably faster. Peeking at the GCC STL source code, I don't...

that is a Q which has code explosion!
 
@Als someone is bound to ask how he is profiling it
 
7:28 PM
But the government is being a very good monopoly. Getting a bigger share in the market and preventing competition.
 
Nice! I'll get to use that link to Neil's blog.
 
Als
@0A0D: Yes, inherently, though i wonder how can someone make time for reading such a big Q.
 
@Xaade I think part of the misdirection on the whole thing is that it is a Universal Health Insurance Reform Law, not what it has been portrayed as in the media
@Als I see questions like that show up on the frontpage and then just turn away
succinctness is a fine art
 
Als
@0A0D, @Xaade: Now the health bill discussion seems like greek to me.
 
@Als Are you a US Citizen?
 
7:31 PM
@0A0D Really.... to me it was a backdoor deal to get control of private insurance by suggesting that it gets more customers.
 
@Xaade you know, apart from all the people whom it actually offers a great deal
 
@jalf In concept. However the actual bill doesn't really offer anyone anything.
 
Als
@0A0D: No I am not & so i don't understand
 
@Xaade No, in practice. Or are you suggesting that the people who actually claim to have benefited from it are lying?
 
@Xaade aside from what you may have heard, it does make it better for everyone
 
7:32 PM
You know, I can get on a podium and offer everyone public insurance or reform private insurance and explain how great it will be, and everyone will nod their head and say yes, I don't want pre-existing conditions to deny me insurance, but that's not what it did.
Don't get me wrong.... people will benefit from parts of the bill...
 
Als
Well guys I am outta here I understand little of US health bill problems.
 
@Xaade part of the problem is someone can show up to the emergency room and make everyone else pay for it.
 
Als
Bygones are bygones and have a goos day ahead of you
 
@0A0D Or they can get on the public option and make everyone else pay for it.
 
@0A0D why exactly is that a problem?
 
7:33 PM
Insurance only delays the cost.
 
Is it preferable that they die? Or are crippled and unable to work?
Perhaps you're suggesting that people would intentionally break their legs just to get treatment through your tax dollars?
 
No no, he's trying to argue that a public option will make the person pay their fair share.
However, will they charge illegal immigrants the hidden tax to pay for the insurance premium, when they still waltz into the emergency room.
 
@Xaade is that really a problem? Is treatment of illegal immigrants going to be what finally breaks the budget?
Again, are you suggesting they intentionally hurt themselves just to exploit the system?
 
No.... I'm just point out that the insurance reform doesn't solve any of the problems of payment that it was touted to solve.
 
@jalf If that's the case they are trying to solve the wrong problem!
 
7:36 PM
the thing about medical treatment is that in order to qualify for it, you usually have to suffer something unpleasant first. Few people do that voluntarily
 
Damn masochists.
 
You're missing the big picture.
 
@Xaade it solves the problem of allowing people who previously couldn't afford health insurance, to get health insurance
I'd say that's a pretty major improvement
 
You're being baited by the "Insurance is good so everyone should have it."
@Jalf actually it hurts affordability
Putting someone who's 26 years old on your insurance because you suddenly can, when said 26 year old could pay for the insurance himself.....?????
You just said the point was affordability.
 
It also solves the problem of pissing off all those cavemen capitalist libertarians who think that despite their previous system being less effective and more expensive that what most of the rest of the world has, * anything that helps others with MY tax dollars is an abomination and must be killed with fire*
 
7:38 PM
If it were affordable, the 26 year old would pay for his own insurance.
 
@Xaade no, I'm not. I'm saying "health care is so good everyone should have it"
 
"My tax dollars" is an oxymoron, right?
 
@jalf You're pushing a logical fallacy. That I either agree with the insurance reform or I disagree with it and don't support helping people.
 
thanks to paranoid conspiracy republicans, an attempt at introducing reasonable health care to the US citizens got watered down into a deal making health insurance marginally more accessible and affordable
@Xaade nope
 
No it didn't
It made it more costly....
If it did in fact make it more affordable, I'm stumped on where it did so.
 
7:40 PM
@Xaade so again, the people who actually say they can now afford treatment that they couldn't before are all lying?
@Xaade perhaps it made it more affordable *for the people who coudln't previously afford it'
mind blown
 
You can't just say it should hypothetically be more affordable, and it's the evil private insurance fault for it not being more affordable.
 
All I know is, I am moving to Canada eh?
 
No, it put a bunch of people who didn't have insurance on a catastrophic HMO plan.
 
@Xaade but I can say that it was previously extremely expensive compared to many other countries, and that the main difference was that the US system was based on private insurance
 
I don't call that adequately covered.
 
7:41 PM
@xaade isnt any plan better than none?
 
and I can say that those private insurance companies were making obscene profits off the system
 
private insurance companies make less profit than Coke.
 
@Xaade what does Coke have to do with anything?
 
@Xaade You need a company that is known for making little profit for that argument to work.
 
My point is that if they made any profit at all, people would still tout that the profits were obscene.
 
7:43 PM
If your previous private-insurance-based system was far more expensive what health care in other countries cost, and the quality wasn't better, then a lot of money is being wasted somewhere
 
@jalf Whether he is or not, I'd say that's a pretty accurate description of people who (for one obvious example) smoke. A purely voluntary action that is known to increase health care costs by ~30%. IMO, asking (or worse, forcing) me to pay part of that cost is unfair, unethical, and if you believe in morals, clearly immoral as well.
 
@jalf AHA.... now you're thinking.
@JerryCoffin At which point, what voluntary actions do we limit on people to avoid that.
 
@JerryCoffin How about people who sit in front of their computer all day, instead of getting some healthy exercise? ;)
I think everyone are guilty of carrying out voluntary actions that worsen their health and thus increase health care costs
 
Do we say, if you want to be on the public insurance, you can't smoke, or eat french fries.... now it's also law that you have the public insurance.....
 
I'm sure smoking is a bigger factor than most, but the principle is the same, isn't it?
 
7:45 PM
That's my point exactly....
Insurance itself is the problem.
 
@Xaade and the solution is?
 
And public insurance only delays the cost, by casting all that cost onto a deficit.
Public insurance can't be cheaper than private insurance.
 
@Xaade why can't it?
 
Evidence: Medicare/aid.
 
Private insurance has to make a profit. Public insurance doesn't
@Xaade lol...
 
7:47 PM
@jalf Yes, but that's a big (huge!) "if". Keep in mind, in particular, that the figures we're getting are almost entirely from people who have a vested interest in influencing our beliefs and decisions. Where health care is nationalized, the agencies who run it have a vested interest in getting people to believe they're doing it well. In the US, the gov't clearly wants to control health care, and has a vested interest in making the current situation seem unbearable.
 
I have heard healthy people cost more in healthcare in the long run simply because they live longer. Anyone know if true?
 
Medicare/aid had the same per capital claim denials as private insurance.
 
are you seriously using that kind of anecdotal evidence as proof in a room full of pedantic programmers?
doubleyou-tee-eff
@Xaade here's some counterproof: health care in goddamn every other civilized country
 
@jalf Which doesn't have a control factor to test against.
England has less people in it.
 
@Xaade wouldn't we be the other group who has privitized, and some country without any healthcare system at all be the control group?
 
7:48 PM
No
 
uhuh, and so what?
 
Because America can't be economically compared to England.
 
you have got to be kidding me. I thought programmers were supposed to be rational
 
Compare to states in America that actually have public health insurance. Cost is high and those states are still failing economically.
 
please, explain to me how the specific instance of medicare/aid proves anything about public vs privately funded health care in general
 
7:50 PM
political decisions are subjective....
 
@jalf Well, we have cargo cult programmers too. (This is not meant as a slight toward Xaade.)
 
That could be for a number of other reasons.
 
@Xaade there are ways to fix difference in population for comparison
 
medicare/aid IS DE FACTO partial public insurance. Which it has the same per capital claim denials as private insurance, which is also bankrupt.
 
At least as it's mandated right now, the US health care bill leaves private insurers in the picture. Medicare/Medicaid do the same -- the government has some control over things, but it's basically buying insurance from a private company, and re-selling it to tax-payers with about a 1% surcharge.
 
7:50 PM
@Xaade Isn't your current health care system managed by the individual states too? Rather than the federal government?
 
@jalf Yep
 
Look, I'm not saying public health insurance is wrong. It in fact does well in Europe.
 
which would make it very comparable to other countries. Does no US state have a population comparable to England?
@Xaade oh, but special rules apply to the US?
 
The problem is, there's evidence that it does poorly in America
Yes
 
@Xaade and as a matter of fact, that is exactly what you were saying
you were stating as fact that public health insurance CAN NEVER BE CHEAPER than private
 
7:52 PM
@jalf Plenty of states bigger than England
 
Because Europe public health insurance != American version.
 
@0A0D and plenty of states are not
 
@jalf Sorry, forgot to qualify with America
 
public health in the UK delivers higher life expectancies for half the cost, as a percent of GDP
 
@jalf The notion that anybody is rational is ridiculous. A few people are rational on a few subjects part of the time. Most people aren't rational about much of anything, and nobody's rational about everything.
 
7:52 PM
you'd have to be totally, incredibly insane to prefer the US system over the UK system
every other state in the world with public health does better than the US
 
It's a societal problem
 
the US pays a truly insane amount for their healthcare and doesn't even get very good results
 
too
 
Every other state in the world with public health will continue to do better after America has public health.
 
@Xaade that doesn't even make sense. "In America, public health insurance can never be cheaper than private health insurance"? How can you tell? What about 200 years from now? What if other laws and policies and whatnot are imported from Europe?
and saying "medicare/aid" again does not, believe it or not, constitute a valdi logical proof
 
7:53 PM
@jalf The concept of a "handout" has a storied history in the US
 
Because we have public insurance in America, in some states, from which major proponents of public insurance come from. In those states, they are bankrupt and failing, and the cost of insurance is higher than in other states.
 
@Xaade and once again, that proves that those specific implementations, in those specific states, at those specfic times, were more expensive
 
@Xaade: That's hardly national, is it?
 
it says nothing about "public health insurance" in general, nation-wide
 
Please understand, I've read the whole bill front to back, and American health insurance reform looks nothing like European public health, even when it included a public option.
 
7:55 PM
@jalf Americans were once known as rugged individualists. It refers to the idea that each individual should be able to help themselves out, and that the government is not needed in economic purposes.
 
@Xaade I don't really care what you've read. If you can't make a logical argument, your conclusions carry zero weight
 
@jalf i am on your side in this
 
I can't even get to the real problem because everyone is hung up on insurance being the solution.
 
insurance is the problem
 
@Xaade I did ask you 10 minutes ago what your solution were
 
7:55 PM
It is extremely difficult to compare the two. Just for one obvious example, most of Europe has decent public transportation (that's heavily used). This is enough safer to radically reduce health care costs completely independent of how the health care is paid for. A health care bill (in nearly any form) isn't going to change the fact that in the US, a much higher percentage of transportation is via private cars.
 
@jalf It's less a problem of it can't be done, and more of a problem of ineptitude of the American Gov't.
 
What is the solution?
 
x = 2
 
and I don't think insurance is the solution. On the contrary, I tried to point out earlier that insurance was the compromise reached in the US because stupid people were afraid of change
 
@jalf My LOGICAL ARGUMENT is that public insurance as carried out by the proposed laws would not look anything like European public insurance, and would fail, because it matches line for line public insurance in states which have proven it to fail.
 
7:56 PM
@JerryCoffin absolutely, but there's a big difference between "extremely difficult to compare", and "any comparison is inherently meaningless"
 
@Xaade Can you prove it was the healthcare system which made the states bankrupt?
 
@Xaade you said nothing about the proposed laws before.
 
@Collecter Given that it was a significant portion of the budget.
 
@Xaade A state going bankrupt does not mean its healthcare was at fault, it could be, and is a multitude of factors
 
@jalf Well, part of the problem is that we are running out of money due to entitlement programs
 
7:57 PM
@Xaade cite some numbers
 
And once again, it's not teh same situation. It is being done in different states now, in a different political climate, where such health care is being pushed nationwide, rather than by individual states, in a different economical context
 
@jalf While I agree that at least in theory a meaningful comparison might be possible, I've yet to see one that even attempted to account for obvious differences.
 
(This is really distracting when i am trying to work xD)
 
@0A0D Do the two wars add a burden on the States' finance?
 
in the absence of policy change, health care spending in Massachusetts is projected to nearly double to $123 billion in 2020, increasing 8 percent faster than the state’s gross domestic product (GDP)

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2010/01/10/massachusetts-health-program-a-model-for-obamas-national-reform-strains-state-budget/#ixzz1S6z4ImQq
 
7:59 PM
@LucDanton Not directly, no. Indirectly, absolutely yes.
 
@Collecter Agreed. So stop trying to work.
 
@Xaade "in the absence of policy change" is a pretty major assumption. It also doesn't tell us what health care spending would have been like with other models
 

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