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sbi
7:05 PM
@Eugene Yeah, that would be a glorified setter - which is why I wouldn't do it that way. One more try. If you want a fellow-worker to connect you to some other place, you don't go to him and hand him the connection data, go back to your place, and again go to the guy to ask him to actually connect you. You hand him the data and expect him do to just connect you. And in case connections might drop, you expect him to autonomously store the data somewhere he can find them to reconnect you.
 
@Eugene Yeah, but I don't think setting a proxy or something on HTTP connection should update the UI, I'd rather think it was UI that updated the connection class. Bah, I don't like theory; at the end of the day, whatever suits the purpose is fine, I suppose.
 
sbi
@GMan They are unnecessary. Just read my dispute with @Eugene, starting here.
 
@PiotrLegnica The HTTP class should provide a mechanism that allows higher-layer code to register itself in order to be notified of state changes. The simplest example of the would the JavaScript's XMLHTTPRequest class.
 
@StackedCrooked :) Multithreading is hard, did anyone tell you? I mean, you cannot just convert single threaded code into multithreaded by adding locks, the interface must be thread safe. As a different example, std::stack<> cannot be made thread safe, if you need a stack that is thread safe, you better find an API that has a top/pop combination, and while you are at it, exception safety... :)
That is what I love about multithreaded, when you thought that C++ was hard... well, try multithreaded C++
3
 
@sbi But what if I need to give him all the info now, send him somewhere else and expect somebody else to use the connection with the parameters I defined? And also maybe ask what those parameters are, because somebody else might want to use them.
 
7:12 PM
@DavidRodríguezdribeas I often prefer to add a wrapper that adds thread-safety instead of polluting the class implementation with locks etc. Lately I've been using these utilities: code.google.com/p/tetris-challenge/source/browse/trunk/Main/…
 
@sbi In some cases this workflow is definitely better, but in other cases it might make for very awkward code. (or something that is unjustifiably hard to make elegant)
 
Xeo
@StackedCrooked Funny, the threading header is located in the folder "Futile" ...
 
@Xeo Yeah, it's all in namespace Futile as well.
 
We are Threads, you will crash. Resistance is futile.
2
 
@Xeo My first name begins with an 'F' and 'utile' is a different word for utility. It's sort of my personal utilities library.
 
sbi
7:15 PM
@Eugene Once the connection is established, it can be used by whoever needs it. If someone else needs the connection's parameters, I'd first ask why they need it. What do you need connection parameters for, except for connecting? And isn't the connection already setup? Anyway, if those parameters are indeed needed by someone else for whatever reason (I can't think of one), they should go and ask the guy who handles connections.
 
welcome back @DeadMG
 
ugh
 
@StackedCrooked That is a perfect example of what you should not do. Adding locks (internally or externally) are not a guarantee of thread safety if the API is not designed for thread safety. Again the stack example, adding locking to top and pop (internally or externally) will not make it thread safe. Consider two threads consuming, each one doing, x = s.top(); s.pop()
 
@sbi I remember that discussion with you, funny how you keep having to repeat yourself.
 
sbi
@Tony Rejoice! The pup is back!
 
7:16 PM
thr1: x = s.top();
thr2: x = s.top();
thr2: s.pop();
thr1: s.pop();
 
@DeadMG Wow! You're happy to be back? All I get is 'ugh'...
 
sbi
@Eugene Frankly, I can't think of a case where this would be more awkward than manually setting private fields (through whatever decoy).
 
if you look at the implementation of, say, thread safe queues
they have
 
Adding the locks ensure that the operations are sequenced, but it does not guarantee that the sequence makes sense, in that particular execution, the top element is read twice, while the second element is discarded without being processed by any thread
 
sbi
@Tony Did we have that? I forgot. But then I was teaching C++ to students who came from Java, and I had this discussion about thrice each semester...
 
7:18 PM
bool tsq::try_pop(T&);
 
@DavidRodríguezdribeas The lock is active during the lifetime of the accessor object. So the lock would cover both top() and pop() operations.
 
@sbi yea we did have a similar discussion, I came from a .NET background, remember? Did that not drive you bonkers?
 
@DeadMG Exactly, but not just the same interface, a modified interface that allows for thread safety.
 
@Tony Repetition is the mother of teaching, even when you are considering only one class. When you teach the same things in different session, there is even more repetition.
 
sbi
@DeadMG: Where have you been? (There's even been rumors you had been suspended, but they had been squished within minutes.)
 
7:20 PM
Yay, @DeadMG is back
 
went home
went to a lan
watched some tv
etc etc
 
@DavidRodríguezdribeas I know you're talking about stacks, but what about a thread safe vector? I have a case where I put a lock (same mutex) around the push_back and pop_front functions, is that then not safe?
 
@StackedCrooked I will have a look at that lib --this is the first time that I have seen it, so I don't know how it is actually used. But even if the accesor can be held for both operations, it does not guarantee thread safety --rather leaves it to the users
 
@Tony if there's no lock on vector access then no
 
if you check my account, you'll actually see minor activity
just I haven't been in the chat much
 
sbi
7:21 PM
@DeadMG So it was not your stomach constraining you to bed? Good!
 
what if I happen to access an element of the vector while you're pushing onto it, forcing it to reallocate
 
@Tony are you using that in a vector? A deque seems more appropriate for a FIFO queue
 
no
 
The code would look like this:
ThreadSafe<std::stack> myStack;

void foo()
{
ScopedWriter scopedAccessor(myStack); // locks the mutex during lifetime
std::stack & theStack = *scopedAccessor.get();
theStack.top();
theStack.pop();
}
 
my sickness constrains me to a computer chair, can't lie down
if I was sick, I'd be on here
 
7:21 PM
@DavidRodríguezdribeas it's for a producer/consumer pattern between threads
 
@StackedCrooked: That is the worst implementation ever
 
@jalf the vector only get's accessed through those functions, IIRC
 
sbi
@Tony You mean repeating the same arguments every semester? I only did that 6 semesters (I did teach programming apprentices for almost 9 years, though), so I was still improving when I quit.
 
@DeadMG worst? As in German wurst?
 
@StackedCrooked: How should I know? Currently speaking English here
 
7:23 PM
@Tony hmm, "IIRC" doesn't sound terribly convincing when thread safety is at stake. If that is correct, then yeah, it's trivially thread safe
 
@sbi oh ok, at least you were prepared by the 2nd or third year I guess
 
@StackedCrooked Yes, and that requires that the user that writes foo() has to ensure that the operations are all performed while holding the lock... I would have to think on whether there is something that might seem natural and break with that pattern of use
 
@jalf I will have to check my code
but I'm pretty sure that is the case
 
@sbi Asking the guy would be a getter. Maybe not on a connection, but on a handler.
 
@DavidRodríguezdribeas The user can't access the stack without making a ScopedAccessor object. I remember Alexandrei posting a similar example as an illustration for using volatile methods.
 
7:24 PM
a deque would be much more efficient for a queue though
well, or std::queue, of course ;)
 
@StackedCrooked: That doesn't make it thread safe
 
If there is such an example, then the approach is flawed :) If not, it is just not as robust as a tailored thread safe container. (in the previous comment I meant user code having two accessors in different contexts where it may look fine and is not... again, would have to think on that for a while)
 
that just makes it serialized
the two are not the same
 
sbi
@Eugene Yeah, I know. Did you notice that my first reaction was to question the need? :)
 
@jalf probably, but not sure if I wanna go change that now though
 
7:25 PM
@sbi Ah, right :).
 
@DeadMG You want to implement transactional memory then? I believe my solution is as good as it gets.
 
@Tony It depends on how the code is actually written, in particular if there is more than one consumer, and you perform locking per operation, then the sequence x = v.front(); v.pop_front(); is as bad as the case of the stack
 
@Tony just remember that every pop_front requries every element to be copied when you're using a vector
 
@StackedCrooked: That's not necessary
 
gets painfully slow pretty quickly
 
sbi
7:26 PM
@Tony Actually, I think the students profited more from me improving than I did. In the first semester, I demanded way too much, and spent the whole semester lowering my expectations.
 
you can implement higher-level atomic operations
in terms of lower-level atomic primitives like atomic compare exchange
 
@Tony, the comment by @jalf is another hint in the use a deque rather than a vector for a FIFO queue
 
effectively constructing an atomic queue
 
@DavidRodríguezdribeas why is that a bad idea within the same lock?
 
Who is locking?
 
7:27 PM
@sbi you've probably had to lower them to speak with us noobs... :P
@DavidRodríguezdribeas me, what do you mean who? the class that owns the container does the locking
 
— Lock, lock — Who's there?
 
@PiotrLegnica you again!
 
Aaand that was terrible.
 
The devil is in the details, if you write `thread_safe_vector<int>` as a wrapper that acquires a lock and forwards to the same operation of the vector, then it is not thread safe, if you know that the vector is NOT thread safe, and solve thread issues externally:
{
scoped_lock l(m);
value = v.front();
v.pop();
}
Then it is safe code, but that is not the same as a thread safe container
 
@DavidRodríguezdribeas I basically have a class that does something similar
 
7:30 PM
What I was saying before is that you cannot maintain the same interface and have it thread safe. In your case, your enclosing class is *changing* the interface, probably with something like:

data d;
tonys_queue.get_next( d );
 
@DavidRodríguezdribeas yea off course the interface is changing...
 
@DavidRodríguezdribeas btw, my solution was founded on this discussion: stackoverflow.com/questions/3482352/… . I saw that Andrei Alexandrescu used a similar concept called LockingPtr when explaining volatile member functions (drdobbs.com/cpp/184403766).
 
@StackedCrooked: That article was written many years ago, before concurrency became common
 
@DeadMG Are you saying its contents is incorrect?
 
I wouldn't find it very reliable
incorrect is not the same as suboptimal
 
7:33 PM
where get_next() is somehow implemented as above... and that is fine: a thread safe interface using a non-thread safe internal container. Which going back to the original point of the conversation:
const std::string & getName() {
scoped_lock l(m);
return m_name;
}
is not thread safe, not because of the lack of locking, but because to obtain the name safely you need to perform the *copy* while holding the lock. You cannot have a thread safe interface that returns pointers/references into the internal objects
 
a lot of concurrent approaches conceived in the early 2000s simply didn't deliver the performance in practice
Microsoft, for the 360, had to nearly entirely re-write their concurrency advice after a little experience
 
haha, quite please with myself :) stackoverflow.com/questions/5654345/…
 
modern concurrency tends to avoid explicit locking in favour of atomic operations and message passing
of course, in some cases, it cannot be avoided
 
@DavidRodríguezdribeas well that makes sense :)
 
@DeadMG That's nice but that wouldn't eliminate the need of a lock that encompasses both top() and pop() calls in @DavidRodríguezdribeas ' example.
 
7:35 PM
@StackedCrooked: It completely does
that's what try_pop is for
that's what I mean- you compose top() and pop() into the same operation
that way it can be implemented atomically internally
using mutexes the way you have done doesn't mean that multiple threads can genuinely access the container concurrently; you've just enforced the serialization of their access
 
sbi
@Tony No. I liked SO as soon as I gave it a try, exactly because there are so many here who know more than I do, alowing me to learn from them.
 
@sbi I was actually specifically referring to people such as myself whom bombard you (me esp in the beginning) with questions
 
@DeadMG That's one approach that may work well in some situations. It's not a silver bullet. And it doesn't make my suggestion: "The worst implementation ever."
 
well, unless you deliberately overdid the locks, then it pretty much is the worst implementation ever
 
@DeadMG that'
that's a pretty big claim, considering how many terrible, broken and inefficient implementations people have come up with ;)
 
7:43 PM
it's difficult for me to come up with an implementation, that you might reasonably actually devise to intentionally solve the problem instead of just look bad, that would be worse
 
@sbi: Example of your starred comment?
 
@DeadMG I just need to take care of minimizing the scope of my locks. Also notice that I added an optional stopwatch that asserts inside the destructor of the accessor class in case the lock duration exceeded a certain value. It helps me identify cases where I'm being wasteful.
 
@StackedCrooked IIRC, he is playing tricks with the effect of volatile on the type system, not using volatile for its synchronization meaning. But he tries to explain that part in the introduction and get it wrong. The (ab)use of the type system is still valid.
 
@StackedCrooked: Locking a lock is wasteful
I'm fairly sure that in the MSDN sample pack, they even have an unordered map which is lockless
 
sbi
@JohnDibling Huh?
 
@AProgrammer Yeah, but I'm not making any use of the volatile feature. I just wanted to mention that the idea of a "LockingPtr" is not unique to me.
 
sbi
@JohnDibling Supposing this was attributed to me (I said this, so I guess it's a pretty safe bet): Have you missed the great commotion here today or are you just trying to be obtuse?
 
@sbi who the hell would've missed all the wrath and fury that went around :P
 
@sbi: I have missed the great commotion. I've only just signed in to chat.
 
sbi
@Tony I don't know, it never really bothered me. For one, I like teaching almost as much as I like programming. And also, since I learn so many things myself, I often don't mind others needing explanations.
 
7:49 PM
@Tony someone who wasn't here when it happened ;)
 
sbi
@JohnDibling Oh. Now, where to start?
 
@jalf Good observation
 
like me!
 
@sbi Tina
 
I can look through the chat log. Just gimme something to look for
 
7:50 PM
@JohnDibling Tina's suspension
 
@Tony thx
 
got suspended for 4 months, completely out of the blue, sbi asked why on meta
 
sbi
This question on meta I posted immediately after the question arose here. Start at that time.
 
and from there it went downhill, with Jeff being a fool
 
7:53 PM
what a day it was, I'm still recovering from all that :P
 
sbi
@John: Be prepared for a long read if you want to read it all. It's been an, um, interesting day.
 
@sbi that's a mild way to express it
 
@jalf four months?? that's quite severe for simply being inarticulate.
 
I just thought of something. In a language with Garbage Collection, you must treat objects which handle resources other than memory differently, that is, it influences the way client code is written. From that follows:
> Garbage Collection breaks encapsulation.
 
@StackedCrooked aye
 
7:55 PM
Or maybe I didn't have enough sleep ;)
 
@StackedCrooked no its not for that she got suspended, its for not learning anything
 
We could suspend most of the human race for that.
 
@DavidRodríguezdribeas Shouldn't threads be "the pointers and rvalue references" of modern C++ code, that is, hidden deep down inside libraries from user code?
 
@PiotrLegnica true that :)
 
Speaking of threading, SO comments could use some.
 
8:02 PM
@FredOverflow I get a bit worried about hiding everything, cause that means that you'll get more and more technically incompetent people doing the programming and this is scary! The notion of "oh yea, its taken care of, so I don't really need to understand it" is already way too commonplace! Its not because pointers are now not that common in C++ that you are not required to understand them! Be sure that these kind of silly ideas get around faster then you might think!
 
There's UserJS for that, but it often screws up chronology. :/
 
@sbi By what measurement of unnecessary? (Getters and setters.)
 
sbi
@PiotrLegnica Yep. And the chat would profit from threading, too.
 
@Tony Concurrent programming with threads is way too low-level and error-prone for large-scale applications.
 
@FredOverflow may be true, and yes it's probably good to hide it, but the use of it still requires the knowledge of how they work... they will not go away merely cause they've been planted in a library
 
sbi
8:04 PM
@GMan Didn't I tell you to read my arguments to @Eugene? :) Anyway, in one sentence:
 
@FredOverflow Yes, there are many approaches in that direction, even in the standard... the lower levels being atomic operations and threads, then futures and promises... then out of the standard there are different approaches, like TBB, or this Microsoft library that I don't quite remember but looked like proprietary a variant of futures where you set up the dependencies of small tasks and the system solves the execution graph, how many threads to use, what can be run in parallel...
 
sbi
If you need to access your class' innards (and that's what setters/getters allow you to do), it's a sign that your class doesn't provide a high enough abstraction.
4
 
@FredOverflow and with all the shitty code I've seen in the last few months of my life, I'm definitely not exaggerating
 
@sbi Can I buy that on a shirt<T>?
 
@sbi Nice one!!!
 
8:06 PM
On a IClothing.
 
sbi
@FredOverflow How would I know? I never heard of the place. :)
 
@FredOverflow It depends on what large-scale application means... a good design can greately limit the interaction among threads, and that is good for performance. As our Architect says... you can only lock a mutex a few million times per second...
 
@sbi What place?
 
sbi
@FredOverflow The T shirt place you mentioned?
 
@sbi Don't you wear T shirts?
 
8:07 PM
@sbi I don't understand. How are publics better?
 
@GMan They aren't. You should have neither public variables nor getters/setters.
 
@GMan It's all about abstraction
 
sbi
@GMan In no way. All I'm saying is that setters/getters are just marginally better than public data.
 
@GMan I want to reply to you, too.
 
@GMan Might as well.
 
8:09 PM
@sbi I say getters/setters are worse than public data members, because they give a superficial illusion of "being OO" to inexperienced programmers.
 
@FredOverflow I disagree. I think you're taking one bad reason and painting it as the only reason.
 
@FredOverflow or because they're additional code for no benefit
 
as has been said before "OO is overrated"
 
sbi
@FredOverflow You ask me whether you could buy that saying on a T shirt, supposedly at a place called shirt<T>. I answered that I don't know that place. Now what do hoop do you want me to jump through?
 
8:10 PM
if you're doubling the length of a class definition, there'd better be some benefit to it
 
@jalf What if we had a language where all member variables had implicit get/sets (much like C#'s properties), so there was no additional code, for potential benefit.
 
@sbi There is no such place, "shirt<T>" is just a geeky synonym for "T shirt".
 
I also disagree that there are no cases where a public variable (or getters and setters) aren't the best solution.
 
@GMan then I'd say it merely sounds pointless. No arguments for it or against it, you've just implemented something like a C struct with other means
 
@jalf It adds extensibility for free.
 
8:11 PM
@GMan There are cases. About as numerous as those where a singleton is the right solution. ;-)
 
@GMan it adds a little bit of rarely used extensibility.
 
sbi
@FredOverflow I'm not a geek. I'm the Grumpy Old Man. How am I supposed to understand that?
 
@GMan Uhm... @Gman, are you having some kind of personality dissociation that you feel you need to tag yourself in your own comments? Another personality might be reading the chat? Concurrently?
2
 
but if you want extensibility, then you're better off designing your class for it properly
 
@jalf So? Does that make it bad? Why is implicit improper?
 
8:11 PM
which means not exposing its innards in either of those ways
 
@GMan Being able to inherit from any class by default (who remembers to seal their classes?) is a serious language design mistake, in my opinion.
 
@GMan no, like I just said, it just makes it completely neutral. No big advantages, no big disadvantages
 
@GMan That has at least one too many negatives for me to be sure I understood what you're saying. Are you saying 1) there are times getters/setters or useful, or 2) getters/setters are never useful, of 3) something else?
 
@AProgrammer Hey!!! At least someone that is not afraid to publicly state that there are cases where singletons are good!
 
@sbi But you do understand that "Lounge<C++>" is basically a synonym for "C++ Lounge", right? ;)
 
8:13 PM
@JerryCoffin I'm saying getters and setters do have advantages over publics, especially when maintenance is not an issue.
 
Funny sex hasn't come up in this conversation, someone care to arbitrarily mention it?
 
@Tony You just did.
 
Oh for fucks sake, Tony, drop it.
 
sbi
@JerryCoffin I see a shining career in politics ahead of @GMan. :)
 
@GMan in the same way that falling 100m has advantages over falling 101m
but not falling at all is still by far preferable
 
8:14 PM
@GMan dropped it already
 
@jalf Not if you want to beat the world record in falling!
 
sbi
@FredOverflow That's an old one. Us old folks can generally deal with the old ones they know.
 
@jalf I'll accept that's a rather arbitrary analogy, and even if so it is still a free advantage.
 
@GMan And what advantages do you see?
 
@JerryCoffin I can subclass it and add signals for when it changes, for example.
 
8:15 PM
@gman assuming we're using something like C#'s properties, then there's little reason why I couldn't have started out with public members though, and then converted them to properties if I needed that functionality later
since the syntax for accessing properties and plain members is the same
er
 
Subclassing breaks encapsulation and is thus inherently anti-OO.
 
that was supposed to be @gman
 
sbi
@FredOverflow The analogy still applies. There's people who survived falling down hundreds of meters. Whether you fall 100 or 101 doesn't touch those records.
 
@sbi Really? Where did they land?
 
@jalf: Syntactically they're the same, but you still have to recompile if you change from public member to property
 
8:16 PM
@jalf No doubt, you could have, but why not do it from the get-go? What do you lose aside from saved work later if needed?
 
@GMan, I read somewhere (meta?) that you did not quite care for the conversation a couple of days ago that mentioned/used the word sex. I am interested to know what was offensive from it (I did not find any of it offensive), so as not to make the same mistake again
 
@FredOverflow wut.
 
@DeadMG yep, but now it seems to be getting extremely hypothetical
 
The fragile base class problem is a fundamental architectural problem of object-oriented programming systems where base classes (superclasses) are considered "fragile" because seemingly safe modifications to a base class, when inherited by the derived classes, may cause the derived classes to malfunction. The programmer cannot determine whether a base class change is safe simply by examining in isolation the methods of the base class. One possible solution is to make instance variables private to their defining class and force subclasses to use accessors to modify superclass states. A ...
 
@GMan You can do the same without subjecting the class' client to getter/setter syntax though.
 
8:17 PM
you're assuming that the codebase is so large that recompiling is a noticeable problem, that we didn't design our classes properly, and that the amount of extensibility we need is so marginal that we can hack it in through properties
 
@DavidRodríguezdribeas I don't find sex offensive. But I find this child-like mentioning of it annoying and distracting. It could be done with candy for all I care.
 
@jalf I wonder if in a 100m fall you already reach terminal velocity...
 
> One possible solution is to make instance variables private to their defining class and force subclasses to use accessors to modify superclass states.
LOL
 
I like Python's "do what the hell you want, it's your problem" approach to OO the best.
 
That does not remedy the problem at all.
 
8:18 PM
Fair enough, GMan, I take note
 
in reality, those assumptions aren't all going to be true very often, and if just one of them isn't satisfied, your advantage falls apart
 
@GMan I'll take note too
 
so run-time inheritance is bad
 
@GMan sex with candy?
 
we already knew that
 
8:18 PM
@jalf ..and at the same time, you're exchanging a signfiicant disadvantage (ugliness/unreadability) for a mostly theoretical advantage.
 
@jalf Make that a proper noun and we're going somewhere.
 
@JerryCoffin well, not necessarily, since we're assuming a language where properties have no syntactic overhead
so it ends up being pretty much a zero-sum thing. No advantages, no disadvantages
other than that once-in-a-million case where properties are just barely able to help you implement this week's changes without recompiling other libs
well, I should say "no disadvantages compared to the other disadvantageous solution"
 
if I need public data members, I use a struct... that is to say, I don't need any functions to do anything... I'm probably stating the obvious, but I don't care
 
compared to the correct solution it's still pretty bad
 
@jalf I think we agree, then.
I'm mostly abusing your discussion to continue to paper-designing a new language. :) My current issue was "members have implicit accessors?"
 
8:21 PM
@jalf Sorry, I guess I missed the "no syntactic overhead" part -- my fault, jumping into the middle of things.
 
I just can't recall the last time I encountered a situation where the so-called extensibility of properties actually made a difference.
@GMan why not unify them entirely? Make the actual member an implementation detail of the language, and only allow the programmer to see the accessors
 
coming from a .NET background I can say it was a pretty odd idea not to have getters/setters, but then I got over it :)
 
then we don't have to choose
 
sbi
@FredOverflow If you want to know about actual such cases, this might be a good place to start. If you want practical tips in case you ever fall out of a plane, see here.
 
anyway, bedtime for me
 
8:22 PM
@jalf Sorry, that's actually what I meant. :)
 
@jalf I think it's worth noting that in current C++ you can provide them without syntactic overhead. You put the data item into a small template with get named operator T and set named operator=.
 
@Jerry: That doesn't work
 
@JerryCoffin still some syntactic overhead in the declaration then, though
 
because the operator T still has to be called at least implicitly
 
@DeadMG Actually it works quite nicely. I've used it for years.
 
8:23 PM
if you have operator std::string&(), you can't do obj.property.size();
 
@jalf True -- I only worry about the overhead in client code though.
 
@GMan make your language so I can define a class Foo { int i; }, and then i is a property whose getter and setter I can modify later on if I need to
assuming you want to stick with classes at all
which, tbh, I don't really see the point in for a new language
 
@sbi et al, I think I'm fairly caught up now
 
anyway, sleepytime!
 
@jalf Exactly lol. In fact I gave an example earlier. But night.
 
8:25 PM
@JohnDibling now you've learned all about the drama that took place today, it was pretty intense by some measures
 
sbi
@JohnDibling And, did I exaggerate when I said it was an interesting day?
 
@jalf Because current languages still suck ass.
 
well, I didn't see that ;)
 
@sbi it was interesting.
 
@jalf Righto. :)
 
8:25 PM
@GMan yeah but that's no excuse for copying their bad ideas, is it? ;)
 
@sbi: I'm a bit on the fence.
 
@jalf Haha, I'm still debating things. :P Was here btw: chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/592897#592897
 
sbi
@JohnDibling Ouch. Doesn't it hurt to sit on the fence? I hope its not a barbed one! :)
 
@sbi: I'm standing. Good middle ear.
 
sbi
@JohnDibling Anyway, the suspension of Tina is indeed debatable. Telling to the public that she's a male is not. That's news Jeff should never have told anyone.
 
8:29 PM
@JohnDibling wow you have three ears?
 
@sbi: Wait, what? How would Jeff know?
 
@DeadMG That's what I'm wondering.
 
@DeadMG looking at the private parts of the profile....
 
sbi
@DeadMG He didn't say. I suppose he could tell from the email address, either directly, or indirectly.
 
@Tony: I'm like a cyclops, only in reverse and with ears.
 
8:31 PM
I almost made a silly comment, but I refrained
 
sbi
However he knew, it was wrong to publish it. (And if he didn't know, and just made a joke, then that would be a lot meaner than any sex joke in Tina's presence could ever be.)
 
@sbi true
 
Call me bad, but I don't really see a problem with it.
 
sbi
@GMan Bad.
 
:X
 
8:32 PM
@GMan: It's personal information that Tina decided to keep to .. himself?
 
@GMan the problem is, if you don't put your sex as part of your public profile, it should be assumed that you don't want to publish it, so why does it give anyone else the right to go do that for you
 
Jeff has no right at all to distribute anyone's personal information
 
I don't know, anyone could tell my gender if they met me in person, why should the internet be different?
 
@sbi took me a minute to figure that one out. Gosh I'm slow
 
@sbi: I do think Tina's suspension is debatable. I agree that @Jeff shouln't have said "she's a man, baby!" And maybe SO's growth has caused the admins to take a slightly more... authoritarian approach to moderating the site. But the other hand, I also think there's a bit of overreacting going on.
 
8:33 PM
why shouldn't it?
 
sbi
Tina left us believing sHe's a woman. We were referring to her being female all the time. Even Tina must have realized that and even Tina would have been able to correct that. If sHe didn't do it, then that must have been deliberate.
 
who cares if something is different if in person?
that's completely fucking irrelevant
 
@GMan yea but that's if they met you... different story
 
Doc
Anyone know if the Windows 8 build that just leaked is fake?
 
@Tony How?
@DeadMG I don't see how.
 
8:34 PM
@GMan then you kinda have a good idea who's in front of you, on the internet you don't have any idea really whom you are talking to
 
@GMan: Meeting someone in person is not some sort of holy grail, which should be the gold standard for all interactions
 
@Tony Right...
 
sbi
@JohnDibling Well, you might have missed the part where Jeff deleted a bunch of comments again, instead of addressing the issues raised in them.
 
a person has the right to keep any and all personal information to themselves at all times
 
@sbi: Such as?
 
8:36 PM
@DeadMG Why any and all? Why not just the stuff that matters? How is gender some giant secret, was my point.
 
@GMan: It's a giant secret if the person wants to keep it a giant secret
 
@JohnDibling there was about 20 or so comments on one post of his, and sbi commented something and 5 mins later all comments were gone
 
it's their gender; they get to choose
 
@GMan They can guess at your gender. If tina was/is doing the equivalent of cross-dressing, it seems to me like it's none of Jeff's business to "out" him/her.
 
@Tony, @sbi: What was the gist of one or some of those comments?
 
8:37 PM
@GMan some people care about that and others don't....
 
sbi
@GMan Because it is. Why don't you call yourself Nick Gorski? Why am I not revealing my identity? Why am I not telling how many kids I have?
 
@JerryCoffin He can still crossdress.
@sbi Because GMan is cooler, but I have no problem with people using my real name. And I don't know, I'm not you.
 
both that most people choose to reveal their gender on the internet or it's revealed in physical interactions, are irrelevant
 
@JerryCoffin thank god Tina isn't here to hear that :)
 
Maybe the Tina memorial topic line should be, "She's a man, baby!"
 
8:38 PM
@sbi: You have four kids, from memory
 
"Because it is" is just bare assertion.
 
@JohnDibling don't you think that would be a tad over the top?
 
@Tony: Yes, I was being facetious.
 
@GMan: That information belongs to tina, and just because you would reveal it or don't understand why he/she would keep it to herself, doesn't mean that you have any right to know it
 
@DeadMG I didn't say I have a right to know it.
 
sbi
8:40 PM
@JohnDibling Mainly it was @jalf raising the question of the mods not being accountable when they delete something or suspend someone. The comment I did have in there was now asked again. There was one I wrote, but, IIRC, didn't commit before all comments were deleted.
 
@Tony Why? I'm not even saying the person in question was doing anything of the sort -- just that if somebody chooses to do so, it doesn't seem to me there's any reason for others to prevent it.
 
@GMan: Then how can you not see why Jeff revealing it was wrong?
 
@JohnDibling I had look up facetious before I understood what you were saying
 
Doc
lol
 
@DeadMG "Right" is the issue here, you're crossing wires.
 
8:40 PM
@Tony: Is that twice in this chat you've had to figure out what I'm saying? :) (Being facetious, again)
 
@JerryCoffin just cause she/he wasn't too happy when we mentioned sex the other day
 
Whether or not it's wrong for X to be revealed has no relation to whether or not I have a right to know X.
 
sbi
@DeadMG Did I ever say that? Well, I apologize. I've learned since. There's no need to change the truth. It's Ok just to shut your mouth and say nothing.
 
@GMan: no, not at all
@sbi: My memory could equally be faulty
@GMan: We have no right to know, so by telling us, Jeff infringes on Tina's rights
which is wrong
 
Arguably, if I have a right to X and X is not revealed, that's wrong, but it certainly doesn't follow that X being revealed is wrong if I have no right to it.
 
sbi
8:42 PM
@GMan Yeah, you revealed your true identity. (Since I used it, this shouldn't come as a surprise.) Others didn't. MO that should be respected at all costs.
@DeadMG That's the ghist of it, yeah.
 
You guys need to make the distinction between X's right to know Y, and Y's right to not be known.
Given I have no right (aka cannot demand) to know Tina's gender, that doesn't infer anything about whether or not Tina has a right to withhold his or her gender.
 
@GMan you have the right to know whatever, but that means we also have the right to keep from you whatever we wish
 
@Tony Quo warranto?
 
@GMan I don't speak italian
 
Latin. Why do I have the right to know whatever? That's directly contradictory with a right to withhold information.
 
8:49 PM
@GMan no it's not, you can know whatever you wish to know, however you might not know it if we wish to withold it, if we don't withold then you'll know else you won't. But that still doesn't take away YOUR right to know whatever
 
"you can know whatever you wish to know, however you might not know it" Read that again.
I cannot both know whatever I want, and not be able to know something.
 
Doc
Epistemology
 
sbi
@GMan & @John: Also, I have another problem with the whole Tina affair. I grew up in a country were it was best to keep your mouth shut. That's fine as long as you do, but I'm the kind of person who can't keep his mouth shut if he sees something he disapproves of. That would have gotten me into big trouble, if it weren't that the politicians issuing the gag order were swept away the moment I started to get into trouble.
II will never be able to go beyond the freedom of speech I enjoy now. Jeff's way of silencing all dissenting voices just rubs me the wrong way so badly, I can't stand it.
Look at the UI issue (the original Eeeeek! question): Just about everything that was criticized as missing back then is now implemented. If they had approached this differently, they would by now have ended up with having implemented everything their user wanted them to - a win/win situation. Instead they left a great amount of their users with a very bad aftertaste.
Or the suspension. As much as I would want users like "There's..." to be suspended, I wouldn't want this to happen as long as their is no clear-cut case of him breaking rules. And I want these breakings to be known. The reason
Or Tina. In a completely unrelated comment, I say that she's not exactly been the greatest contributer - and she gets suspended. As much as I don't want her here, that is scary. @Als said it best: chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/10?m=590655#590655.
Or the release of private information. It's fine that you don't care. I do. I started to withdraw my real name from the net the moment google suggested the rest after I had typed my first name and half my last name. Every employee I'll ever apply to will find the net flooded with my opinions on C++, raising kids, and maintaining the de.* Usenet hierarchy. It's enough. I dont want this any longer. But now, Jeff might just disclose my identity just because I annoy him, That's as bad as it gets.
 
What's wrong with people finding your opinions?
 

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