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6:00 PM
we don't know what humans are...
 
@LucDanton So far, for the most part it doesn't seem to work. For one example, Australia made most private ownership of firearms illegal a few years ago. If there's been any effect on crime rates at all, it's far too small for anybody to measure.
 
We use message passing.
 
@JohannesSchaublitb Meatbags that either talk or are mute.
 
@JerryCoffin Ah, I was not commenting on crime rates but on the availability of guns.
 
"Death is very likely the single best invention of life" - Steve Jobs
 
6:01 PM
@JohannesSchaublitb How deep should I interpret this?
 
@StackedCrooked we only know the observable side about them
as far as that side is concerned, humans could consist of immaterial components that just aren't observable
 
@ManofOneWay That's really silly.
 
@JohannesSchaublitb That goes for anything in science.
 
Actually that's not true. The big bang has not been observed for example and still we know about it's existance.
 
6:03 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes maybe it's silly if it's taken out of context
 
we could observe it if it happened again
 
@StackedCrooked It had observable side-effects.
 
and we don't "know" about its existence
 
Mendeljev predicted the existence of elements that had not yet been discovered because there were empty squares in his table.
 
6:04 PM
we just have good evidence to justify it
 
@StackedCrooked 'Existence' is more of a metaphysical concept than a scientific one.
 
> this is a landmark week for the ISO Standard C Programming Language as well. Just a couple of days ago, the new C standard passed what turned out to be its final ballot,[*] and so we now have the new ISO C11 standard
What's new in C11?
 
@LucDanton Oh, I'm not sure how you'd even hope to measure that -- obviously if you make them illegal, most people become unwilling to admit to how many they may still posses. For that matter, it's sometimes hard to decide what even constitutes a gun -- people in prisons (for example) have made functional firearms out of little more than a piece of pipe with a cap screwed on one end and a small hole through the middle of the cap for the firing pin.
 
@LucDanton Not necessarily. Whether or not the Higgs boson exists is not a metaphysical question.
 
6:06 PM
_Generic or what's been called.
 
From a scientific point of view 'Is there such a thing as the big bang?' is not an interesting question. 'What best models our observations of cosmic background radiation, space expansion, and distribution of local matter' is more interesting.
 
also, one could ask whether anything exists if there is no-one to observe it
i.e whether there are really atoms independent of us observing them, or whether we just think there are because we "feel" / "see" / ... them.
 
@LucDanton Exactly. Science is about models not truth.
 
@StackedCrooked It is. 'Exist' in this context is shorthand.
 
Truth is for philosophers.
 
6:07 PM
I find I get a lot more done when I'm not forcing myself to program in terms of libraries and interfaces.
 
@JohannesSchaublitb That's the realm of existentialism.
 
yeah C1x has _Generic
 
@JohannesSchaublitb You can say it, it's C11.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes has it been released?
 
@JohannesSchaublitb Don't you think C99 > C++ ?
 
6:08 PM
it's about the "thing itself"
guys...
 
maidens
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Oh, so pornography is a science?
 
@JerryCoffin back then, when we watched pr0n we told our parents that "we're watching nature documentation!"
 
@JerryCoffin Pornography has "performers" not models.
 
@JohannesSchaublitb I told my parents nothing.
 
6:12 PM
the model is the girl...
 
@RMartinhoFernandes If performance is such a key concept, why don't we have C++ pr0n?
 
@StackedCrooked pity
 
@FredOverflow C++ doesn't have boobs.
 
right :(
 
@StackedCrooked why oh why did you not tell your parents. :((
lol
 
6:13 PM
(Now, please, don't ask about Haskell porn)
 
It's hard to masturbate to C++.
3
 
Are you kidding? How about all those angle brackets and double colons? Don't tell me they don't get you horny!
 
@JohannesSchaublitb Did I miss out on some great opportunities?
 
@StackedCrooked Being hard might help.
 
6:14 PM
And not valid.
 
sex constructor in a porn class?
 
Friends accessing your private members?
@ManofOneWay Is that SFW?
 
@JohannesSchaublitb I think it should implement policies for combining genres.
 
@Maxpm What's SFW?
 
6:15 PM
@ManofOneWay Safe For Work.
 
It's ascii signs
So I guess you could call it safe
 
@Maxpm not really safe
 
Mmkay.
 
it shows a naked performer
 
@ManofOneWay That's some ugly ASCII there.
 
6:16 PM
How do you know she's a performer?
 
@StackedCrooked haha agreed
 
She's performing a hands on hips stand.
 
@StackedCrooked Sounds more like modeling than performing.
 
This is such a recognizable expression.
 
Als
Animated
Unreal
 
@LucDanton i would not agree. because it has no practical utility to predict (e.g.) the cosmic background radiation. thus it's not the model itself that's important, nor its predictive power (which is utterly irrelevant for practical purposes), but what that indicates, if anything, about reality.
 
"Snowboarding is a perfect analogy!". Yeah, I wonder how you can explain getting stuck in infinite loops.
@AlfPSteinbach Science can only produce models. The truth is independent. Portions possibly grasped by modeling observations are the best we can hope for.
For all we know, timespace is like the surface of water, and some greater dimension object struck it, and bam, cosmic radiation.
 
science can predict nothing about reality
 
I also can predict nothing. I'm science!
 
6:27 PM
@JohannesSchaublitb It can predict solar eclipse.
 
I can dim down the light, bring in a blue banana, and you'd swear it was yellow.
 
it can only predict something about observed reality under the assumption that laws and constants stay the same and are independent of the point in space.
 
@CatPlusPlus You can't reverse implication.
 
@StackedCrooked that's not necessarily reality
remember that we could live in a simulated reality
we don't know and can't know
 
Which is our reality.
 
6:28 PM
I would think that the existence of Quantum Theory would prove that theorizing on observation alone will produce ridiculous results.
 
yes but not the ultimate reality necessarily
 
@StackedCrooked You can't. I'm science!
 
@JohannesSchaublitb I'm reasoning on the assumption that there is an objective reality that can be perceived by us. If you don't want to accept that assumption then yes, you're absolutely right.
 
so everything we predict is not objective. because we cannot know what's outside
i think there's a small chance that after I kill myself, I'm lifted up in the next higher reality and get a new body. but I don't want to risk and try
 
6:30 PM
@FredOverflow IMO, Herb's article is rather foolish and silly. Nearly everybody who worked on Unix came from the MULTICS project, which was also done primarily in a high-level language (PL/I). Writing an efficient OS in a HLL wasn't something everybody thought was impossible. It was something most thought was possible, and were trying to do, but mostly (at least from the Unix viewpoint) getting it wrong.
 
I've been wondering about this. Take this game The Sims. Suppose the field of AI would progress so much that the characters in the game behave and "feel" like actual humans. Would it be possible for them to find out that they are actually living in simulated environment?
 
Anybody up for a quiz? How many of the following declarations do you understand blindly, that is, without trying them in your compiler or peeking at the standard?
A a;
A b();
A(c);
A d = A();
A e(A());
A f((A()));
 
If something, that was beyond space-time as we see it, wanted X to happen. Such a thing could set off a series of cause-effect chains that would be so convoluted that we'd never believe the true origin. And it could do it at the beginning of our "time", and to that thing time doesn't matter, so X happened due to external influence we'll never be able to observe.
 
@StackedCrooked What exactly would constitute them "knowing" that (or anything else)?
 
@FredOverflow easy
 
6:32 PM
- Default constructor
- Function declaration
- Constructor or function call
- Constructor with value initialization
- Copy constructor?
- Copy constructor?
 
@FredOverflow 5/6.
 
@StackedCrooked third is wrong
 
@StackedCrooked c is the same as a, and e is a function declaration ;)
 
e is a declaration.
f could be a move.
 
@JohannesSchaublitb Third can't be a function call?
 
6:33 PM
@StackedCrooked Deadpool knows.
 
Also, a is not necessarily default-constructed.
 
it can be neither a function call nor a constructor call
BTW you need to specify what ctor is called
 
@JerryCoffin Just knowing. What are you confused about?
 
@StackedCrooked @FredOverflow Are we assuming A is a type?
 
struct A
{
};
 
6:34 PM
if default ctor I guess you mean "A c;" if you say "it calls the ctor with c" then I guess you mean "(A(c));". you would be right if you meant the former
 
@StackedCrooked Does belief in it count as "knowing" (you know, things like religion)?
 
@StackedCrooked If they knew because it was possible for them to know, how can you discern that knowing is an effectual result or just predefined behavior. And if it were predefined behavior, is it really "knowing" at all, or just the "simulation of knowing".
 
@RMartinhoFernandes They need to be able to conclude on a rational basis that they are living in a simulated enviroment. So a perfect proof isn't necessarily required.
 
Suppose they find a "bug".
 
Yes, but they can't be capable of concluding that, unless it was allowed.
 
6:36 PM
That's a likely cause to trigger the awareness.
 
Would that count as knowing the environment is simulated?
Or just not knowing how the universe works (i.e. having models that fail to predict that "bug")?
 
Knowing you're in a simulation, is only possible if you have non-simulation experience (like knowing your in a dream because cows don't invert spontaneously).
 
@Xaade That never happens in my dreams.
 
Do we want to know what happens in your dreams? :)
 
what does it mean!! struct A { static int const x = 0; }; float x(float(A::x));
 
6:37 PM
They probably would need to be able to predict and reproduce the behavior.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes a bug would be a part of their reality. For example, if one day you fell through the floor, would you think it's a bug in "reality" or some odd quantum conundrum.
 
@Xaade Right, that's my point.
 
@StackedCrooked At first glance, it looks like an initialization of an outer x with A::x, but that would be too easy, right?
 
If all that quantum weirdness was a bug in our hypothetically simulated reality, we wouldn't know: we just slapped a new model on top of it, and moved on.
 
@FredOverflow it'S a function declaration!
 
6:38 PM
Oh wait, it's a function declaration
 
but ill-formed because the parameter is a qualified name
 
Takes a pointer to function that takes an A::x and returns a float
 
@RMartinhoFernandes The simulated reality theory would start as a hypothesis that competes with other hypotheses.
 
nono. A::x is the parameter name
 
Oh wait, A::x is not a type
 
6:39 PM
@StackedCrooked And what predictions would it make that would make it stand out from the others?
 
it is a function taking int returning int
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I can't say really.
 
@JohannesSchaublitb Why int? It looks like float to me.
 
@FredOverflow i changed it to float
it was int before. im sorry :)
 
Given struct A { typedef int x; }; it would compile, right?
 
6:41 PM
@FredOverflow yes then it would compile :)
 
@StackedCrooked Consider. Does this qualify as knowing? class person { const static bool in_simulation = true; };
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Perhaps the developer would sometimes make changes to the application. These are things that couldn't happen normally
 
@StackedCrooked I mean, what does it mean to be in a simulated reality? What could happen that could prove our reality is simulated (other than you having an experience "outside" of it)?
 
@JerryCoffin Who is knowing what?
 
@JerryCoffin Objects shouldn't know about their containers.
 
6:42 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes That's basically the question that I am asking.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes glitches, freezings, reboots
Windows, basically
 
@FredOverflow You can't tell about reboots, can you?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Data can
 
@FredOverflow on a second thought one could probably say that "purely syntactic" includes the rule that paramters shall not be qualified. but since this is a "shall not" and not a "cannot", it means that you can still parse them as having a qualified name
 
Lieutenant Commander Data ( ) is a character in the fictional Star Trek universe portrayed by actor Brent Spiner. He appears in the television series Star Trek: The Next Generation and the feature films Star Trek Generations, Star Trek: First Contact, Star Trek: Insurrection, and Star Trek Nemesis. Designed and built by Doctor Noonien Soong, Data is a sentient android who serves as the second officer and chief operations officer aboard the starships USS Enterprise-D and USS Enterprise-E. His positronic brain allows him impressive computational capabilities. Data experienced ongoing diffic...
 
6:43 PM
And look at all the glitches we have found so far: Mercury's weird orbit, photons acting strangely in the presence of detectors, etc.
What did we do?
We explained them (to a certain degree) "in-universe".
 
@FredOverflow so the diagnostic that clang gives "parameter name cannot be qualified" is wrong really, because a parameter name can be qualified, but it shall not be so.
 
I also assume a "freezing" of a simulated reality is indistinguishable from normal operation to its participants.
 
The person object now "knows" it's in a simulation, because it has a visible bool directly telling it so.
 
if it could not be qualified, then we could not have parsed it that way because then it could be qualified.
 
:)
What is that called, proof by contradiction?
 
6:46 PM
reductio ad absurdum
 
@FredOverflow the spec contains several of such
 
Oh hai
 
for example "int a; int main() { a; }" is not a declaration in main locally, even though grammatically we could have parsed this as a declaration.
 
> A common type of reductio ad absurdum is proof by contradiction (also called indirect proof)
 
So what? We were both right.
I played a safer (i.e. more general) card.
 
6:47 PM
@JohannesSchaublitb How could we have parsed a; as a declaration?
 
There must be something wrong with me- I want to go back and write more unicode handling code
 
but the rule says that the decl-specifier seq can only be omitted for ctor/conversion functions/dtors, such that there is no way we could parse the above as a declaration (it is not a ctor/conversion function/dtor)
@FredOverflow by omitting the decl-specifier-seq we would be left only with the declarator-id in the init-declarator
 
Isn't implicit int deprecated?
 
C++ doesn't have implicit int
 
Okay so what could a; possibly mean as a declaration?
 
6:49 PM
it means nothing
it's an invalid declaration
 
Then why is it allowed by the syntax if there is no valid interpretation?
 
a declaration like that cannot have its decl-specifier-seq omitted (cannot as opposed to shall not)
 
@DeadMG That is curable with early detection.
 
Lol
 
@DeadMG You should see a doctor and get a prescription for anti-idiotics.
2
 
6:50 PM
@AlfPSteinbach The predictive power is what's used to put the model to the test. In and of itself it's not significant, I agree.
 
@FredOverflow because the grammar is broader than what is allowed by semantics and than what is allowed by the combination of several grammar productions. some combinations are forbidden.
 
@JohannesSchaublitb And it would be quite hard to put these rules directly in the syntax, I guess?
 
int; is allowed too by the grammar, because struct A { }; is allowed and forbidding int; by the grammar would bloat the grammar
 
Probably the context-sensitivity crap messing things up.
 
I noticed that in the Java syntax a while back, it allows stuff like public static final private protected final final public int x; :)
 
6:52 PM
What?
 
The language semantics don't allow such nonsense of course, but the syntax does.
 
Is it like modifier* type id;?
 
however, int; can nevertheless not be parsed as a declaration even though the grammar allows it, because the spec says that a declaration can only have its init-declarator omitted if the decl-specifier seq contains a class-specifier, enum-specifier or friend specifier (c++11).
 
@RMartinhoFernandes in a nutshell, yes
 
No, you forgot the AbstractSingletonProxyManagerBean
 
6:53 PM
Factory.
 
Brillant.
 
ChuckNorris
 
Fuck, knew I forgot one
 
THE one
 
Btw, Dart has language-level support for factories. Make of that what you will.
 
6:54 PM
if it would say shall not have its init-declarator omitted if ..., we would still be allowed to parse it, because we merely have to reject the declaration once the interpretation as a declaration has been established. but a cannot forbids that interpretation.
 
@JohannesSchaublitb That is so interesting!
 
@FredOverflow at least that's my understanding of cannot vs shall not. some comitttee member explained it that way to me some time ago
 
Less, not more.
 
@FredOverflow Sarcasm?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes What gave it away?
 
6:55 PM
I knew it!
 
Has @Johannes become a compiler writer?
 
@FredOverflow i'm planning for writing a flex clone.
perhaps you want to join?
 
What's flex?
 
of course the syntax of the input file will be different...
 
flex as in the lexer generator?
 
6:57 PM
Lexer generator.
 
implementation language?
 
No kidding.
 
6:57 PM
with user friendly compiler
 
@FredOverflow What would you prefer?
 
Pick a language with boobs and I'm in!
 
(i mean, the lexer generator should be user friendly)
 
I'm in!
 
6:58 PM
Oooh, boobs
 
@FredOverflow perhaps we can extend our regular expression operators by the boobs matcher?
 
semantics?
 
Boobs.
 
Obviously.
 
8 is a shortcut for "boobs"
 
6:59 PM
Isn't (.).(.) just three text characters?
 
\8 is literally 8
lol
 
and \8/ is a happy snowman
 
@FredOverflow With regexes you can just do (.)(.).
 
In regex dot matches any character.
 
i'm currently trying to understand the "minimizing the states of a DFA" algorithm but Im having troubles
will try tomorrow in the train to work again :)
 
7:00 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes In regex, you can say (.)Y(.) and isn't that exactly what you were looking for? :)
 
@FredOverflow I don't see why.
My version already has cleavage naturally.
 
AYE matches it.
 
No need for introducing artificial cleavage with Y.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes What's cleavage?
 
Cleavage, anatomically known as the intramammary cleft, is the space between a woman's breasts lying over the sternum. Cleavage is exposed by a garment with a low neckline, such as ball gowns, evening gowns, swimwear, casual tops and other garments. Most people, both male and female, regard breasts as an important aspect of femininity and many women use cleavage to enhance their physical and sexual attractiveness and to enhance their sense of femininity. Some people regard use of cleavage as a form of feminine flirting or seduction, within the confines of community, peer group and persona...
 
7:01 PM
Oh, I thought it was some deep language theory thing :)
We call it "Ausschnitt" (excerpt).
 
   o
(.)Y(.)
 / ' \
 
A bit like a preface, I suppose ;)
 
lol
manboobs
 
7:02 PM
What is this I don't even.
 
Is the ' supposed to be what I think? :)
 
@JohannesSchaublitb A boxer?
 
BTW, do you also have those "I think I should quit noooow" thoughts few hours before deadline?
 
7:03 PM
he has three legs, zero arms and one head. two boobs
 
Yes.
I bet there's a name for that. I'm referring to the deadline thing, not the crazy anatomy Johannes described.
 
Deadlines make that nice wooshing sound as they pass by.
 
Despair.
Meh, it's not even a fun project.
 
@CatPlusPlus is this a deadline imposed externally (a contract with a customer) or internally (your boss saying I want this done by then)
 
Could be both.
 
7:05 PM
Supervisor kind of person. It's our internal project, thankfully.
I don't have to deal with stupid crazy clients.
 
Then it's not that bad. If you don't finish it he'll just need to adjust his planning.
Easy for me to say :)
If something isn't progressing as planned you should always inform the your boss as soon as possible. Don't try to hide it and try to catch up. That's what I used to do and it caused much stress.
 
Five minutes after the projects gets started: "Hey boss, this is going a bit slow."
 
:D
The deadline must be postponed with 5 minutes.
 
No, five days.
What the heck can you do in five minutes?
 
Hey boss, I accidentally deleted my source code.
 
7:12 PM
$ hg clone it/once/more
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Run away.
 
And the company's source code.
 
@StackedCrooked If you can do that, they deserved it.
 
When the deadline is there you could try to go hiding in the toilets.
 
The toilets?
 
7:13 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes Or any other place.
 
"Sorry I need to go to the toilet now". And stay there for three hours.
 
Doing what?
Reading the writings on the wall?
 
Waiting for the deadline to pass by.
 
Wouldn't it work out better if you worked your ass off instead using your ass for what it was built (i.e. sitting)?
 
7:17 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes There's usually one or two persons that have access to all data.
 
But if you do have that access, you're boss-y, right?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Off course. It was a joke.
@RMartinhoFernandes Usually.
 
This conversation is getting boring.
I think I'm going to buy food.
 
Well, you kept asking questions :)
 
"10x!" for "Thanks!"?
 
7:21 PM
If it were my personal project, I'd start writing it from scratch long time ago.
 
@CatPlusPlus same goes for the code at my work
 
conversion from an iterator to a const_iterator?
 
What about it?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes how do you do it?
 
7:27 PM
In general, you can't.
 
oh why?
 
I think.
Gimme a sec to double check.
 
my question comes from here
1
Q: C++ iterator to const_iterator

trinithisHow do I acquire a const_iterator from an iterator in C++? What about a const_iterator from an insert_iterator? The resulting iterator should point at the same spot as the original does.

 
if a const_iterator is a typedef to const iterator then you can use static_cast
 
But I think a container can have iterator and const_iterator be completely unrelated types.
@StackedCrooked const_iterator probably won't be const iterator. That would prevent it++.
 
7:29 PM
hmmm perhaps not such a good idea then
 
Oh wait.
C::iterator must be convertible to C::const_iterator.
 
The built-in iterators provide an implicit conversion to const_iterator. With other iterator types, however, there's no guarantee of that -- it's pretty easy for somebody to stop it from happening/working if they want to.
 
STL algorithms take a duck-type approach when accepting or rejecting iterators. So if a function requires a const iterator and you pass it a non-const iterator then it will work because the operation set on a const iterator is subset of the non-const one.
 
Yay, URLs hardcoded into Flash.
Yay, Flash uploader that allows to upload a file under any username.
 
@JerryCoffin With std::insert_iterator you can cheat!
 
7:58 PM
What are the practical uses for move semantics? I can only think of two cases: 1. Factory method that returns a non-copyable by value. 2. Passing an object to a different thread.
 

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