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Xeo
nom nom, cake
 
lucky fucker
 
user1804599
@sehe one billion layers of abstract singleton proxies.
 
I' thinking some sort of pressure chamber and magnetic stirring doofer....
 
11:12 AM
lol
@thecoshman Send a follow-up question :D
 
@thecoshman Maybe a microwave?
It is magnetic.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes ... I want to stir it to boiling point... not just microwave
also, wtf is with americans microwaving water?
 
WTF is with brits failing to stir water to boiling point.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes see here
 
"The British Felix Baumgartner"
 
11:15 AM
@thecoshman I saw that.
How does your magnetic thingmajig avoid cavitation?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'm guessing that by pressurising the tea, I can avoid that
 
@thecoshman That makes stirring harder.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes exactly, because more energy is being imparted into the water
 
Erm, what/
Are you saying you heat it up by heating it up first and then stirring?
 
though the downside is that when I de-pressurise, it will cool so I have to get the water hotter in the first place... or slowly bring it back to 1atm
 
11:18 AM
Yep, sounds like cheating.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes what? not at all
 
Btw, do you know that if you increase pressure, the boiling point goes up?
By a lot?
You can't cheat this.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes yes, but I don't want it to boil at the high PSI, the opposite infact, I want it to get very hot, whilst still liquid. I want to just get lots of thermal energy into it, so that when I drop it back to 1atm pressure, it is now a nice hot cup of tea.
 
@thecoshman Then what does pressure give ya?
You can't cheat energy into it that you don't have.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes not cavitating...
 
11:24 AM
Either you stir the energy in, or you don't.
 
user1804599
Yum.
 
user1804599
Ham rolls.
 
@thecoshman I think your assumption that you can just take the pressure out and keep the same temperature is giving you false hopes.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes increase pressure to avoid cavitation, allows me to stir faster. pressure also means it stays liquid at the higher temperature. Just to need to find out how lowering from say 1kbar to 1bar affects the temperature, sat if I got it up to 350C. Also need to find a pressure vessel that would allow a magnetic stirring system to work through it
@R.MartinhoFernandes I already clearly said I am aware of that
10 mins ago, by thecoshman
though the downside is that when I de-pressurise, it will cool so I have to get the water hotter in the first place... or slowly bring it back to 1atm
 
@thecoshman Except now stirring faster requires even more energy.
@thecoshman And the heat capacity also changed.
 
11:32 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes that's not a problem, the initial problem was that to stir fast enough causes cavitation... of course, there is potential that the speed at which I would need to stir increase, thus meaning that I still can't stir fast enough with out cavitation
@R.MartinhoFernandes need a graph to see how that chances my plans :P
 
Well, arguably, liquid water is not very compressible, so you might have a shot there.
 
OMG tea thermodynamics. I may be English, but even I cannot take this seriously:) Rankine, Brayton and Coshman cycles..
 
Seems you're in luck. It barely changes up to 1000 atm.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Why does it suddenly treble at 10^3?
 
11:37 AM
What unit is 'Pa'?
 
Pascal.
 
Ada
 
ok, so one 'cup' is 250ml...
 
You beat me - rascal.
 
11:38 AM
and how hot do you want it for tea? 90c?
 
@MartinJames Transition out of the sublimation line, I suppose. It cannot exist as liquid before that. Ice is weird, basically.
 
lets say 96 c, which is 360k
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well it appears that I don't have the right sort of equipment in my kitchen to experiment at that pressure.
 
@MartinJames You don't? I do.
 
11:41 AM
I'm reading it all wrong.
@DeadMG What?
Atmospheric pressure is ~100kPa.
 
@DeadMG Good, (?), for you. Luckily, I live hundreds of miles away from your kitchen:)
 
@MartinJames Ignore anything I say about the graph :S It's a gas->liquid transition, not solid->liquid.
 
@MartinJames You do? I don't recall disclosing the location of my kitchen.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Heh - I didn't study the graph very well either:)
@DeadMG Isn't it somewhere in the west country?
 
user1804599
Is there an efficient way to push to two remotes on the same server with Git?
 
11:44 AM
@MartinJames No.
 
I think this is saying I need to get up to just shy of 4000 jules of energy if I pressurise at 1Kbar...
 
also, I only have a vague idea of where that is.
 
@rightfold erm.. push to remote A, push to remote B
 
user1804599
That could upload the same data twice.
 
@MartinJames not all idiots are from there
 
11:46 AM
@DeadMG It seems that I have an even vaguer idea of the location of your high-presure kitchen:(
 
@rightfold o_0 how else is data going to get to two different locations?
 
@thecoshman LOL!
 
it's in England somewhere.
 
user1804599
@thecoshman upload it once, copy it on the server. vOv
 
@DeadMG Yeah - in the west:)
 
11:46 AM
what makes you say that?
 
I get the feeling that talking about 1Kbar of water is something that will never get past theory...
 
@DeadMG Dunno - I thought that was where you live. Obviously, I've got it wrong.
 
actually, I only have a very vague idea of most of the places like "Midlands", I never spent much time looking at vague informal notions of this country's geography.
 
England doesn't really have a "the West"
there's "the North West", "the West Midlands", "the West Country" and "the South West", if you must
 
11:51 AM
:12892541 You're confusing precedence for argument evaluation order.
@DeadMG FUCKING STOP IT
2
jesus christ
2
 
if I was going to I would have by now.
 
so rude and utterly unnecessary
 
... thank you.
 
considering that these people still come here, it's clearly not only necessary but insufficient.
 
@DeadMG Then why don't you learn that binning person X's harmless C++ question does not prevent person Y from coming in two days later with his own, and give up?
 
11:53 AM
who would have thought it so hard to find out at what temperature water boils when held at 1Kbar
 
That JS book costs $13.50
Come on
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit True, but it can at least clean up the mess in the short term.
 
@DeadMG because the only thing you're achieving right now is acting like a total dick to every newcomer who walks in this room.
9
 
I wouldn't blame anyone for choosing not to answer a question; the reason does not concern me, either. And I'm not exactly a newcomer.
 
sure, but I don't want them to come back and ask more C++ questions in here.
 
11:54 AM
@Kivin Forgive me; generalising
 
so that doesn't really concern me.
 
@DeadMG Then inform them, politely. Instead of instabinning their words as if you've said it a million times over and all they've given back is jip.
 
No need, I understand Lightness.
I get it, you only want to talk to programmers if there's no code in question.
I don't blame you.
 
eh, if I did that, I'd spend my life repeating the same old crap
 
@DeadMG I think, on the internet, it's easy to forget that you're not repeating to the same person over and over.
Really, you can just not care and then everyone's lives will be better.
 
11:55 AM
I already don't care. I just don't care about something different to what you think I should not care about.
 
@Kivin The Lounge is pretty strict about not allowing C++ questions at all, which I disagree with but have to respect. But it's also very rude about it, which I most certainly do not have to respect. I'm sorry you've had this experience here today.
Hope you find your answer. For what it's worth, it's already been posted on SO about a million times
 
Use the C++ room insted vOv
It's question-friendly
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Like I said, I'm familiar with the way things go here. I expect it. I have had some interesting discussion out of an innocent question from time to time, and learned things I didn't know I was asking.
 
Easy to be friendly in an empty room
@Kivin Yeah, I think it can add value but oh well
Some people would rather talk about homosexuality, computer games and the best way to make tea
 
Clearly people would rather have the text not move on the screen than take the form of a subject related to somebody's question. It's okay.
 
11:57 AM
@Lig i lurk there oftentimes
 
@BartekBanachewicz I gave up :(
to be fair that's partially because I haven't had time to do much internet stuff lately, but I'm coming back
 
user1804599
I’m a homosexual gamer who likes to drink tea.
 
o_0 it's going to take at least 250,000kg of steel to hold a cup of water that these pressures...
 
I'm a heterosexual non-gamer who drinks coffee. Somehow, most of us seem to get on OK:)
 
that's nearly double the weight of my jetstrosity.
 
12:00 PM
Oh fucking fuck
I accidentaly paid my uni unnecessarily
 
no... at least 375000kg steel... need to factor in density and stress of the steel...
 
At least they kept it as overpay
Gosh I'm retarded
3
 
user1804599
Yay.
 
user1804599
My two pairs of trousers are shipping today. :D
 
@rightfold is gay?
 
user1804599
12:03 PM
No. I was making a joke.
 
user1804599
Tony and Scott are gay.
 
That's no joke. They were born that way
 
user1804599
DHL’s tracking page has terrible HTML code.
 
You know you're a certifiable, card-holding nerd when you view source web sites.
 
@DeadMG you're onto something there!
 
user1804599
12:07 PM
</script>
<HTML>
 
user1804599
Fail.
 
Yeah, @DeadMG, you are an exceptionally bad boy.
 
OK, just out of respect, Iwill change my drinks orientation for today. I'm off to make a cup of tea, (with a kettle, at normal pressure).
 
Xeo
@MartinJames whimp
 
12:22 PM
so
I've read a few first paragraphs from that JS book
 
I've learned that, in order, Javascript sucks, the author can't use static typing, the language sucks terribly but apparently has some nice features, it was born randomly in the basement.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Two days ago you liked JavaScript
oh, sorry, book
I was hit by my own ccccccombo breaker
 
I was spending a lot of time in the JS room lately
and I can't help but notice, these people don't get what language constructs are all about
they don't get what static typing, const correctness or access specifiers are for
they use phrases like "good programmers" and "reasonable programmers" and scarcely use "mistake" or "error"
they advocate naming conventions over language features because they sound simpler to them
 
rant of superiority?
 
12:30 PM
yep
 
am I ranting?
I'm trying to wrap my head around all this mess
lol
> . The depths to which JavaScript sucks is well-documented and well-understood
 
@BartekBanachewicz Maybe you could try reading the book in a basement?
 
@MartinJames why?
 
> it was born randomly in the basement
 
12:35 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Well, if JS was born there, perhaps it will make more sense to read it in its home environment.
 
perhaps.
I am still determined to read the damn book
but it's just painfully stupid to read things like "static typing is bad because I can't use it to provide meaningful errors"
 
I still find js a painful thing to work with. The callbacks can really kill you.
 
@GamesBrainiac callbacks really aren't the biggest problem
 
@BartekBanachewicz Oh they are, thats why I use promises :)
 
@GamesBrainiac so the biggest problem is easily solvable?
 
12:39 PM
@BartekBanachewicz I did not know of promises before.
 
I am not sure if you understand what "biggest" means, then.
 
Right now, I don't have much of an issue with it other than weird quirks.
 
@GamesBrainiac and how is that related to javascript?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Because javascript does not have inbuilt promises, you need to use node-promises to facilitate it.
 
@GamesBrainiac isn't the promise mechanism trivial to build in a dynamic language?
 
12:41 PM
But you were really enthusiastic about the biggest problem, so do tell :)
 
@GamesBrainiac scoping.
 
lol, this
yea, I know what you mean
 
this and everything else
 
There are tonnes of questions on "Why is this doing this?" :P
 
tunas?
 
12:50 PM
@BartekBanachewicz How can CPS not be the biggest problem in anything.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes because scoping is that bad
 
You don't know CPS, then.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I seem to know what's about in general
 
12:52 PM
Pick a language. Any language. If CPS is something 'normal' in it, it's also the worst thing in it.
 
@BartekBanachewicz is just mad because we disagree with him on what meaningful typing should do ^_^
 
If it's not something 'normal' in it, it's because it's the worst thing in it.
 
( mentions silently you don't have to do CPS if you don't want to in JavaScript, it's just useful at times)
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum lol, you came all the way from javascript? :P
@BenjaminGruenbaum How ya been man?
 
@GamesBrainiac I was here before... in fact I'm usually around.
 
12:55 PM
Javascript sucks so badly!
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I actually agree with this one /cc @R.MartinhoFernandes
 
Oh, ddnt know that. @BenjaminGruenbaum
 
I just don't like speaking here when I don't have important things to say.
 
impahtant
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Yeah, I was thinking the same, but I decided to go with someone else's assumption and play it out.
 
12:57 PM
@Jefffrey ∀X∈languages : X sucks horribly in some way.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Oooh, any chance I can hear this opinion without someone going ballistic about it? (Maybe in the JS room?)
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum C does not.
 
lol
One word: declarators.
 
I don't really understand arguing about languages that much. C++ really shines when trying to solve some problems and is really bad at others. So does JS. Pretty much most other languages - except for Java, god I hate Java ^^.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Sure.
 
C is the perfect and pure language from which any other derives.
 
12:58 PM
s/c/algol/
@Jefffrey C is awesome. Pointer decay is awesome , dangling pointers are awesome, no meaningful type safety is awesome, no nice object syntax is awesome, no templates/generics is awesome, sucky function pointers are awesome, unmanaged only is awesome. Everything is awesome ^^ What's your take on rust for example?
(segfaults ftw - go valgrind go)
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum My main issues with rust seem to be gone now. Hopefully.
The language was too fickle.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Most of those "problems" are the programmer's fault, not the language's ones.
 
I got interested in it around 0.3 or something, and now it's gosh so fucking different.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I think it's still kind of immature and changes a lot, but I intend on using it for a real project soon to really evaluate it properly. I like some of the core concepts in rust and what they're pushing though. I'm not in the habit of having strong opinions about languages I never coded a real project in but I think it shows interesting promise.
 
long story short, I am not good enough with chemistry, physics, maths and engineering in order to determine if pressurising water would allow you stir it boiling point or not. But I can tell you with a high degree of certainty it is not going to be easy.
 
1:05 PM
@thecoshman pressuring water actually causes it to freeze.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum, I was joking btw. I don't even know C and very little of Javascript anyway.
I'm just too bored.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum yeah, once you get to high enough pressure, and are not attempting to stir raising the temperature as you go.
 
@Jefffrey What do you code in? (I don't assume that btw, I have friends who work on Linux stuff for Intel and swear by C)
 
I like how Facebook calls gender "Basic Information" when 40% of the internet is whining and whining that it's anything but. Go Facebook!
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum do tell when you're done.
And if someone here tells you that C is good, you can safely conclude they are trolling.
 
1:11 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum Yeah, that's what I meant. But it seems that now it's gotten a lot more stable.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I know C guys can be like that sometimes. Linus might be an example of that IIRC. I'm trying to learn C++ by the way. I also have some experience with PHP (but I've stopped using that and moved to Ruby for the web).
 
I was talking with a friend recently and he made me really interested in Rust.
 
Not that I'm doing anything web related recently.
 
But I want to learn more Javascript now anyway.
 
@BartekBanachewicz What's wrong with you? ;)
@BartekBanachewicz Just put Water on Metal and wait.
 
1:13 PM
@FredOverflow ask @Benjamin
 
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ everyfucking day some fuckers alarm goes off
 
@FredOverflow don't look at me, I told him I do all my coding in Eclipse and Java 1.4 ( because generics are stupid, even if they're compile time).
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Anyway, what should meaningful typing do then that pisses off Bartek so much ;)?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Isn't Java 1.4 like 10 years old?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I think most of the complexity in big systems stems from how objects interact and depend on each other. It's the single biggest problem in software architecture imo. The way to describe that is behavior. I think typing should be strong behavioral typing and that types that attempt to do substitution should do not violate LSP. Static checking doesn't really validate that. Interfaces and types in most static languages don't really enforce behavior in any way.
@R.MartinhoFernandes All of the behavior is enforced in the unit tests, functional tests, and integration tests anyway. Things like syntax errors take seconds to debug even if you don't use static analysis tools.. they're not an excuse . If the language can't really give me meaningful typing and structure - I'd just like it to get out of my way.
JS tries to get out of my way (and fails sometimes, there are lots of WTFs, it's nowhere perfect at this). Haskell tries to give me meaningful typing (and fails sometimes, you can't really capture behavior and controlling side effects nicely is often problematic in practice, and yes IO monad I'm talking to you).
 
1:20 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum So just use fewer objects ;)
 
I mostly agree, but I fail to see what Haskell does more than other static typed languages do.
Besides the whole IO thing, I mean.
Typing there is just as meaningful as you make it.
 
Lots of languages in the middle (Java for example) give me a fake sense of safety without giving me any meaningful information. The "type safety" is pretty much worthless - even if generics worked well. When type inference works well it means it gets out of my way better but some languages don't do that at all (Java) and some languages can do it a lot better (C++,C#).
 
Like any other language.
 
Exactly!
I completely agree that it's up to the programmer to structure their code well, a restricting language is not an excuse for anything.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Do you mean C++ and C# are already good, or they need improvement in that area?
 
1:22 PM
Typing is as meaningful as you make it.
@FredOverflow They need a lot more improvement in type inference imo. It can be done a lot better. Since IIRC you do a lot of Haskell you probably know that it can be done a lot better :P
 
If you want to say that in general, in code written in Java (to take your example), types are often meaningless garbage, I'll probably agree based on my experience, but I do think it's quite possible to do it right in Java, though with tons of boilerplate, as usual.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Sure, but would it be worth the trouble of making the languages yet more elaborate?
 
Yes, I completely agree with that.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes What would be an example of a meaningless garbage type in Java?
 
@FredOverflow If you can't name an invariant, it's probably garbage.
You see those things all the time.
 
1:25 PM
That's not an example.
 
@FredOverflow For who? I don't understand why I have to explicitly write the return type of a function in C# when the compiler can infer it (C++ does it now if I understand correctly), or the type in block scoping when I declare the variable before I use it.
 
@FredOverflow It's a rule for you to find them :P I don't have some Java code at hand right now. (Thank Finagle)
 
@FredOverflow Let's take an example:
package java.util;

interface List<E> implements Collection<E>, Iterable<E> {
    void add(int index, E element)
        throws UnsupportedOperationException, ClassCastException,
            NullPointerException, IllegalArgumentException,
            IndexOutOfBoundsException;
}
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum C++ can do return type deduction for normal functions now, but it's pretty limited because it's not cross-TU (obviously) so many functions still need an explicit return type. Also there are serious limits on how recursive that function can be.
 
@FredOverflow What does the interface say here?
 
1:26 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum lol, that throws list.
 
(Who the heck thought checked exceptions were a good idea :( )
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I'm not sure what you're getting at.
 
@DeadMG IIRC it can be recursive, but the return statement must come before the recursive call.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum None of those is actually checked, though.
 
All runtime?
 
1:27 PM
Yeah.
 
@FredOverflow that interface says "add", all you know is that it throws a lot of things (why? when?) and that it accepts an index and an element. That doesn't tell you what add actually does
What's really the interface here?
 
@FredOverflow throws UnsupportedOperationException => add has no meaningful post-conditions. It doesn't even guarantee that it can be used!
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Ah, what you want is contract programming.
 
- The length of the collection does not decrease
- All the items that were in the collection before are still there
- Element is in the collection
(example from http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4437291/ )
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Or not, because UnsupportedOperationException is great.
 
1:28 PM
I like the idea of contracts and I tried using them (Tried some eiffel, and the contracts C# extension) they slow me down too much. I find defining them in unit tests a lot easier to be honest.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes That UnsupportedOperationException must be the stupidest invention ever :D
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes ThisInterfaceIsActuallyBrokenException
Lots of Java interfaces are just the fault of not having first order functions though :/
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Meh, I think the remove example is facetious.
 
Yeah, it is. That whole answer is a bit of a "show", but I like the general point.
(Now JS sucks for a lot of reasons other than the type system, and the type system can use a lot of work, but I'd take it over a meaningless system any day)
 
interface Bird
{
    void fly();
}

class Penguin implements Bird
{
    public void fly()
    {
        throw new UnsupportedOperationException();
        // Fuck you, type system!
    }
}
 
1:31 PM
Haha
(And lots of JS coders really use it wrong , that's a constant discussion topic in esdiscuss (spec mailing list), the concept of behavioral typing is a lot harder to grasp imo and a lot less intuitive to start with)
 
your brain's operation is unsupported.
 
@FredOverflow Well, that's just as facetious as the remove example, though. The problem with add is that even the docs say it can be implemented to throw that exception. It is potentially useless by design.
 
Hey, I actually have a C++ question, what do people here think of concepts?
 
user1804599
@BenjaminGruenbaum Fail early = good.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I don't want to care any more. Personal I'd rather they be nominal than structural, but it seems that latter is how it will turn out.
C++ is too messed up to make either choice without pain.
(To get what I mean, consider AbelianGroup as a concept, and std::string)
 
1:37 PM
That makes a lot of sense.
Anyway I'm off. Nice chatting with everyone.
 
oh great, I point how speaking one world language would make life easier for us all, and how English sucks, and now people think I'm some sort of neo nazi ¬_¬
 
Good to see people chatting about C++. Been forced to write Java the past two months.
 
30
A: What is java interface equivalent in Ruby?

Jörg W MittagRuby has Interfaces just like any other language. Note that you have to be careful not to conflate the concept of the Interface, which is an abstract specification of the responsibilities, guarantees and protocols of a unit with the concept of the interface which is a keyword in the Java, C# and...

I don't really get the rant on Java interfaces on this answer.
> There is nothing in the interface that says that the Add method must even add at all, it might just as well remove an element from the collection.
 
@BartekBanachewicz -1 needs more uppercase
 
Because the equivalent in C++ would?
 
1:40 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum valgrind? Is that the new vegetable? :)
@LightnessRacesinOrbit It's metadata! Also, it's not binary
 
@Jefffrey It's a propagandistic answer. Don't read too much into it.
> So, if the types don't tell you anything interesting anyway
For me this is the pivotal point where everything stops making sense.
It turns into a strawman argument.
I mean, the presentation of the example is ok, but then building the argument out of it is wrong.
 
@ereOn Two words: contact headhunter
 
@FredOverflow This could only be improved by having @jalf post it
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I can't really see anything good in that answer except the part where he drops the Java talk and start answering the Ruby question (from "So, in short: Ruby does not have an equivalent to a Java interface...").
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Jörg is one of those Haskell wankers, isn't he? Gotta love him :)
 
1:47 PM
@FredOverflow Something like that, yeah.
 
@FredOverflow: Hey. The job is good (usually). Just this particular Java/Android task that was a bit boring.
 
@Jefffrey It stops there, because "and its exactly the same as in Java: documentation." is wrong.
 
Technically the description about Ruby's duck typing, right after, sounds ok, but yeah the point is that the Java part sucks balls.
 
Which is just ridiculous and blindly dismissive.
 
He pisses all over Java's type system, how can you not love him for that? ;)
 
1:52 PM
Alf replied to this by email
> Can't you just stay over in the SO troll corral?
>
> Trollfest in clc++, argh!
>
> Plink.
>
>
> - Alf
Such a twat
 
I can spend here all day saying bad things about Java's type system, but "it does not bring anything interesting over no static typing" is not one of them.
 
> Can this be written in an even gooder way, for bestest possible code? Disclaimer: the code has not been tested or even called.
lol
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Ow. He's getting worse with age, I guess.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit The other guy, Leigh, totally deserved that.
he was an unnecessary prick.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes At least it makes some sense.
 
1:56 PM
@DeadMG Oh wow, that is true.
 
Whoa. That awkward moment when your tools go missing: dependencywalker.com appears to be wiped
 

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