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11:01 AM
@Learning well it exists. Have you included System.Linq?
 
Reeep ears
If I didn't feel stressed before, I certainly do now
 
@TomW:solved with this
data.Where(i => i > id).tolist()
Thanks
 
@JakobMillah ?
 
11:18 AM
@Learning yeah so that doesn't do what you said you wanted
You said everything after 43
Where doesn't care about order, it'll take everything greater than 43
 
Ey lads
 
How do I explain to a junior programmer that passing a ninject kernel in to anything is a bad idea?
I tried stating that you are depending on a black hole
and also that the testing impact is huge
and his response was "but we only use this code in the context of our stack so we know we always have one and its correctly setup ... I chose that!"
 
what if you want to change your ioc framework?
 
Yeh I explained that too, he was like, we just create a new IKernel interface and then wrap up the new framework
 
does not happen often ime
 
11:22 AM
again also his point
 
What happens if Nate makes a breaking change to the framework, but you need a new feature?
 
I was like "you basically defined that the class in question has a dependency on anything"
 
But maintaining IoC config is pretty painful. Using modules and having it all in one place helps with that.
 
@wadry but why go to the trouble, just use it normally
Why go out of your way to misuse it
 
He's a Junior, elaborate on the fact that he will not be the only person working on it and eventually someone somewhere is going to break the 'convention' and that's when all hell breaks loose. Pretend that he's so smart to never do that, but touch on the subject that his colleagues might not be.
 
11:24 AM
to begin with, please don't let junior programmer decide architecture
 
What problem is he solving with passing in IKernel likely that there is a design smell there.
 
@TomW I pointed that out and was told "but if thats the pattern we designed then its not misuse"
 
Sounds like he needs some smacking on the behind.
 
@RoelvanUden Yeh that didn't sink in at all
 
Is it an option to give up on these kind of people?
 
11:25 AM
@tweray the end of the discussion was ... well just accept that what i'm telling you is fact and right ... just do it
 
Right, several good justifications and he's still defying you, just make it an order and be done with it
@wadry yeah it has to be, eventually
 
He's a good dev though (generally speaking) just lacking XP
 
@JakobMillah Sex related lyrics
 
I want him to understand this in the way that I do
 
Honestly it feels like he's just defending his decision. It's not wrong now but can very well be in the future. If he absolutely refuses to learn beyond "what works", then it's a lost case anyway.
 
11:26 AM
Perhaps that is the only argument really, it is not idiomatic and will be harder to maintain.
 
@JohanLarsson I did raise the points of maintainability and testability too
 
Imo it is good that he asks why and is not happy with the speculative flexibility answer 'what if we change IoC Framework'
 
I asked him the question of "What does your class need in order to function?"
he said "a kernel"
 
@Squiggle That song made me stressed :D
@scheien Yep, but it's not so... vulgar :o It's not like "smoke pot with me and sex me all night"
 
I was like uh ... ok but what questions will be asked of that kernel?
he was like "uh just read the code"
 
11:27 AM
"Ride my schlong and ding ding dong"
 
Hello, i have a ArgumentOutOfRange Exc - HResult -2146233086

Message: Index was out of range. Must be non-negative and less than the size of the collection. Parametername Index

Error occurs in scope of a Submit button that takes two parameters into two DataAdapters
 
@JakobMillah Smallest ride ever
 
He probably needs to inject a factory and that is not much fun.
 
@wadry Yeahhh sure then tell him to read those 1 million LoC of your enterprise project and "just figure out what dependencies there are"
 
Tests will need mock returning mock etc.
 
11:28 AM
@MaartenWachters You are a mad kid
 
@RoelvanUden yeh I suggested that and he was like "I only need to look in the modules to figure that out"
 
Kitten mortality rate goes up.
 
@MaartenWachters shots fired
 
I was like ... so every class you define depends on the whole stack?
 
@wadry yeah, it's an engineered version of Ball of Mud
Bag of Spanners?
 
11:30 AM
@KendallFrey Dodged them, since I can't feel offended by someone that have never got ridden :D
 
@TomW Ball of Mud by design ... sounds like a great model don't it
 
Sounds like the classic case of utter ignorance.
 
@wadry at least it can't get worse than it already is.
 
he just doesn't understand the reason for IoC
he did it when I explained "We have a dependency on IoC not ninject" though
that seemed to gain me some ground
 
@KendallFrey He won't be able to fire many out that little cannon of his
 
11:31 AM
I don't use IoC much/at all either, but at least I don't inject a kernel somewhere :d
 
@scheien there is that
 
lmao this is awesome, keep going
 
@MaartenWachters Savage
 
@wadry I'm gonna trademark that. Bag of Spanners, a codebase that has the same characteristics as a Big Ball of Mud (dependencies everywhere, no clear relationships or delineation) but overburdened with patterns used badly so that there are strong lines that delineate nothing of value
 
@RoelvanUden I can't be savage, I'm not from the Netherlands
 
11:31 AM
@TomW Download the BagOfSpanners nuget package now!
 
I'm on a roll today
 
I basically had a situation where I got lazy early on and just passed in a kernel for something I was toying with
 
Mad kid. Mother tells him to go outside and play. Get some air
 
he then used that as a template and built some code using that "pattern"
I then fixed my "broken design" and showed him the corrections which triggered that discussion
he didn't seem impressed
 
11:33 AM
I can kind of see how the alternative can be offputting
 
@TomW it wasn't a hard change
 
Factories and services and so on can end up looking like these weird-shaped unidentifiable widgets that you just have to have
 
// old version
public Foo(IKernel kernel)

// new version
public Foo(IAuthInfo authInfo, IDbContext db)
 
With no real idea of why they're really there. They're specific dependencies but their actual purpose can be unclear
 
@wadry Might be Friday syndrome. I suffer for that every Friday, too. It's an utter unwillingness to learn something new just prior to enjoying the look weekend.
 
11:34 AM
@wadry To all stupid put all "Widget" in your constructor
@wadry better, but what's an IAuthInfo?
 
To All stupid put all "Dependencies on IoC in your stack" in your Asshole
 
that's too long for asshole tbh
 
How do I get one, what's a valid state for an IAuthInfo versus an invalid state?
 
@TomW its an interface containing the base requirements to determine the current user context
 
@wadry Rhetorical question
 
11:36 AM
@TomW the implementation provided by IoC will deal with that
 
To all stupid put all "to all stupid put all {0} in your asshole" in your asshole.
 
My point is that seeing those as dependencies doesn't help all that much. There's only so much meaning that you can convey in a constructor signature of course
 
the component doesn't care lol
 
// old version
public Foo(IKernel kernel)

// new version
public Foo(IAuthInfo authInfo, IDbContext db)

// roel's version
public Foo()
 
@Squiggle grats, you just created a dead loop
 
11:36 AM
Sure it's better than IKernel
 
@RoelvanUden that doesn't solve the problem, the class in question has dependencies, they should be known by any caller
 
But.. but..
 
@tweray I realised that half way through writing the sentence.
 
@JakobMillah Can't stuck at uni lad
 
That ain't OO. Putting code in a class doesn't make it OO any more than putting a rock in the microwave makes it food. — imallett Oct 11 '15 at 5:18
6
omg hahah
 
11:38 AM
have a star
 
@MaartenWachters Remember to call home, I bet she's worried. And don't go outside past 10
 
@RoelvanUden how would you get dependencies in to an object?
 
Do you think that guy will ever be able to come back?
 
@wadry I only use CRUD so there is no real dependency other than IContext, a UoW.
 
@KendallFrey that just makes me want to read the original conversation for a giggle
 
11:39 AM
@RoelvanUden you new them up?
 
And that is just in a inherited backing property in the base controller that uses Dependency.Get<T> over a static helper to access a static kernel somewhere.
Yeah, shoot me, I only have one dependency, so fuck you all.
Actually, I don't even have a kernel as in using a library for IoC
 
@RoelvanUden Yeh I don't have UoW yet so in the meantime these things are needed, but surely you must have situations where business logic depends on other business logic parts?
 
@wadry No. Like what?
 
@JakobMillah Not like stuck stuck, I mean I got class for aother hour
 
Fuck classes
Tonight is parday
 
11:41 AM
Can't concentrate
Today I get to go for my new medication
hopefully it'll improve my concentration
 
    public static class Dependency
    {
        [NotNull] private static readonly Dictionary<Type, Func<object>> Binders;

        #region Constructor

        static Dependency()
        {
            Binders = new Dictionary<Type, Func<object>>();
        }

        #endregion

        #region Methods

        public static void Bind<T>(Func<object> binder)
        {
            Binders[typeof (T)] = binder;
        }

        public static T Get<T>() where T : class
        {
            Func<object> binder;
 
Viagra?
 
"IoC"
 
Don't need that jakob, I see ur name and I pop one instantly
A boner that is, not a viagra pill
 
Standard!
 
11:42 AM
> #region Constructor
 
@RoelvanUden Isn't that basically a Service Locator pattern?
 
why not field initializer?
 
Because fuck you all.
 
hahahaah
 
@Squiggle yeh that is
 
11:43 AM
@RoelvanUden Where do we meet
 
I fucking loathe service locators
sry
 
@MaartenWachters Somewhere civilized I guess, e.g. not Belgium
 
@Squiggle service location is basically retarded IoC from what I understand
 
@Squiggle It's okay, it's just one dependency.
 
11:44 AM
@wadry exactly
 
hmm IOC fight...novel
 
@RoelvanUden :-/ one nice static dependency which means you can't run unit tests in parallel
 
Look I don't Unit Test okay
Again, fuck y'all.
 
I basically have for the purpose of handling a http API request ...
controller > business logic > repository > db
 
and that's why you're happy with ServiceLocator :P
 
11:45 AM
I hate unit testing
 
ninject builds that stack for me
 
@Ggalla1779 then don't do it.
 
@RoelvanUden You said that a couple of times, everything all right?
 
@RoelvanUden yeh dw about testing it ... what could go wrong
 
I know it would be nicer to just let some ioc bind together things and pass them into a constructor and set them in fields but jeez, it's way too much code for something so fucking simple. if the project becomes larger, i can rip this out, but it's not going to be needed. :)
 
11:46 AM
@Ggalla1779 I have a team of testers for that
 
nice
If clients want it i do it
 
@RoelvanUden yeh I used to think exactly that, then the real world fucked my day
 
!!xkcd 217
 
@JohanLarsson Sure. I just feel like there should be an opposing voice in this group agreement, sure, looking from the best practices that is the absolute best way and I would do it just like that if needed, but 9/10 times people don't work on a project that benefits enough to compensate the downsides.
@wadry Still no problem here
 
11:49 AM
@RoelvanUden Haha very funny. Might not be as civilized but atleast we won't all be swimming with the fishes in a couple of years
 
@RoelvanUden you're lucky to have apps that only run in to a couple thousand lines of code used by 5 users
 
@wadry Do you honestly believe that's what I work on? :D
 
@RoelvanUden lol ... just playing your game :)
I'm sure you don't ... in fact you probably have a pretty nice ball of mud like the rest of us which uses IoC in places but not in others
 
Probably.
 
@RoelvanUden My argument for using a framework is 1) Knowledge reuse from using a well known framework. 2) A nuget does not bloat the app code.
Don't think an app can be too small for using a container if it solves a problem.
 
11:52 AM
@JohanLarsson I basically have that as a standard template ... IoC, json, async main execution
just because at some point i'm going to need them all
in the 0.001% of situations where that is not the case i pretty much always end up with something that never hits source control
 
No need for a template even, adding a nuget package is not a story in a sprint ime :)
CI could perhaps be a reason to avoid nuget idk.
 
I don't even use async! Honestly, this annoys me to no end.
 
I've refactored away from async for lots of stuff.
 
@RoelvanUden now I know you are either trolling or definitely don't deal with anything high load / with a lot of concurrent users
 
Unfortunately I'm not trolling. It's because we still focus on .NET4.0 running on Server 2003 for most web applications.
 
11:55 AM
I've got proven results that show web applications scale a crap ton better when all requests are handled async
 
(And support IE8 and Windows XP)
I know, I know.
 
Always nice to build in some technical debt from the start.
 
Lol
 
IE6 can still use a website using async
 
Async is nice when you build on top of it
When you're trying to build async back in
 
11:56 AM
@wadry Windows Server 2003 cannot.
 
@RoelvanUden wtf? ... thats like saying server 2003 doesn't support .Net 4
 
@wadry 4.0, but not 4.5. And try running code compiled with .NET4.5 on a .NET4 machine. Bad things happen.
 
@RoelvanUden so update .Net ?
i'm confused by this
 
You can't because .NET4.5 requires Windows Server >= 2008
Just windows things.
 
0.o
 
11:59 AM
But hey, at least new projects are 4.6.1 running on Server 2012 R2
That's something I guess.
 
Hi
 
crap sys admins or a lot of legacy code?
 
the latter.
 
can anybody help me to convert this query to linq:
 
uh oh ... learning is here
 
11:59 AM
SELECT * FROM Users
LEFT OUTER JOIN
FriendsMapping F1
ON Users.UserId = F1.User1
LEFT OUTER JOIN
FriendsMapping F2
ON Users.UserId = F2.User2
WHERE  F1.User1 IS NULL AND F2.User2 IS NULL
 
Our main sys admin guy is actually quite amazing.
But he's constrainted by all the crap too.
 
no, we don't know what's query and what's linq
 
@RoelvanUden I hate it when infrastructure gets like that
 
@wadry:Hello sir
 
@Learning hi
 
12:01 PM
I'm painfully aware. At least not using IoC is a choice, but I'd really want to use .NET 4.6.1 for everything at least, start using C#6 features, and async. Like I said, I can on new projects, but not on the long running ones.
which is fucked.
OTOH Code Contracts and async is a lot of shit too.
 
How are you sir?
 
Yeah my new Win2012 servers are great its a pity I have to put VB6 rubbish on them
 
you MONSTER!
win2012 UI is shit though
who the fuck with his right mind would put that stupid major failure win8 metro desktop onto windows server
 
@RoelvanUden im still not sold on code contracts but async in my codebase is little more than a few keywords
 
Same here. I just need non-nullables, so currently using JetBrains annotations
It's still meh.
But so is Code Contracts.
 
12:10 PM
@Learning not too bad :)
 
agreed code contracts is a mess
Maybe Roslyn analyzers is the way forward with static analysis.
And of course explicit null will be huge for correctness.
 
Meanwhile TS is rapidly approaching non-nullables AND static analysis.
 
@RoelvanUden prefer to just use code analysis rules to define a level of coding standards and then assume that if the standards are met then all is good, but code contracts to me just feel like code for codes sake
 
@RoelvanUden TS meaning teamspeak?
 
@MaartenWachters TypeScript
 
12:22 PM
Don't know what that is
 
the future
 
JAVASCRIPT
BLEEERRRGH
Got a lab javascript now and I'm absolutely hating it so much can't get it to work for the life of me
 
JavaScript is fine. What exactly about it don't you like?
 
Time for me to go home lads
The syntax
I just am not very good at it
For my lab I need to make an image fall and one follow my mouse, make them collide
easy in c#but yeah
 
12:26 PM
it's very similar to C# in syntax...
 
Personally I find it one of the simplest syntaxes of any programming language
 
just less of it
 
haha
 
jabberscript is fine
 
12:27 PM
bout to go catch my bus home be back in an our or so
 
the canvas is created after the script is run?
$(function() - short for .ready and I didnt know
 
Thank Gaben for lambdas in ES6.
 
@Squiggle Switch-a-roo
 
@MaartenWachters basically check out scopes in javascript. every function is a scope of its own
 
lol
 
12:33 PM
@scheien yeah, the ol' C# Chat switch-a-roo
 
@Squiggle Haha that's true :D
 
>not bringing your axe to work with you
its like you aren't even web developing
 
@Squiggle I hope you searched for that, and that you didnt remember it.
 
yeah I searched. They're thin on the ground here, unlike reddit.
 
:)
 
12:35 PM
have you ever fallen down the ol' reddit switch-a-roo hole?
 
Nope
Didn't know that was thing even
 
:)
 
and that looks like a bacteria colony seen through a microscope.
:)
What does it represent?
 
I felt like playing EVE Online
 
Yeah I thought it looked like the Eve galactic map
 
12:39 PM
it's a map of the link-backs on the switch-a-roo comments
 
I took some time to create a nice table for the Java access modifiers. I noticed that there's an almost identical question on C# access modifiers. I've never written any C#, but if someone here would like to post a similar table on that question, I'm happy to share the svg-version of the table.
 
Neat!
 
MFW 3 months of technical debt becomes 6 months of technical debt
>.>
 
12:43 PM
Eve is good but they keep wrecking it with changes
 
3 months ago: "hey we want to use biztalk so move all your shit into the orchestration so we can integrate it"
today: "hey we are not gonna use biztalk so dont do any more work for it"
 
god not Biztalk
 
@TomW will appreciate my pain
 
BizTalk = magical enterprise woo
 
@Failsafe are you my colleague?
 
12:44 PM
hahaha
@TomW Yea we are the american branch of your organization
;)
 
@Squiggle Where a magical enterprise woo is like a regular woo, but very expensive and built by a team of consultants to be impossible to understand
 
^
Don't forget it's very legacy
 
are we talking "migrated from VB6" legacy here?
 
Fuck no
 
Its been a while guys
 
12:48 PM
They never got round to migrating it.
 
I was learning javascript :D
 
@Squiggle more like XSLT legacy
2000 legacy
 
'lo @Rusty :) how's life?
@Failsafe I just did a little bit of sick there
 
Yea
 
good, feeling a lot relaxed. I took a couple of days off, JS is pretty nice. I dunno why i was so hesitant towards it
 
12:51 PM
Old code is best code
COBOL COBOL uber alles
 
@TomW stop pls
 
FORTRAN4EVA
2
 
coffee time
 
@Squiggle they just stopped teaching that at the local community college
 
why? Did the teacher die of old age?
Ooh. Finally using Office365 - Word Online is quite a nice user experience.
 
12:55 PM
they also stopped VB.net and moved everything over to c#
 
also I'm loving the Azure AD stuff
 
I learned all the old languages in college
It was nice because it lets me appreciate where we are now
 
I can see that being useful
 
MFW I didn't even learn C# in college
hahaha
 

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