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7:00 PM
Speaking of Meta, teams unshipped today.
 
Yeah, go download the data dump to forever bask in the knowledge that sopython had the biggest team.
 
user559633
Oh wow, I actually thought about that this morning with regard to documentation: "hey, is it possible they'll end this feature? no, no way, otherwise they'd re-beta teams until they figure out what to do with it"
 
user559633
I could see clawing back SO-Docs as it is now, cancelling the rep, and moving it to "hosted/community-updated documentation for companies" as a revenue stream. Maybe offer a few internet points for people contributing (the internet point to currency exchange rate is very favorable to businesses right now).
 
user559633
Hi Joran, long time no see.
 
drop in sometimes .... underwater with piles of real work to do
 
7:06 PM
Wait, so how did I join teams if it was in private beta and I'm pretty sure I didn't sign up?
was it pseudo-private?
 
user559633
Oh no, he's starting to realize that he's missing chunks of time
 
hey how do you guys (or do you) deal with logging when using multiprocesses (I have a custom class that fetches a logging instance named current_subprocess().name from a dictionary every time i want to write .... but it seems a bit clunky
 
user559633
@JoranBeasley Different FD because I'm a dirty hack.
 
yeah thats effectively what i do too ... i just dont like it and it makes my console window less usefull
 
user559633
7:12 PM
I wildcard grep when local on the box, otherwise, it goes to a centralized logging setup
 
user559633
cbg marko
 
in fact it makes my entire logs significantly less useful (or rather more dificult to get a complete picture)
 
user559633
Yeah, essentially (when using Python), I just do whatever's easiest, then stitch the logs back together on timestamp
 
I wonder if it would be worth the pain to run them through logparse server or something
 
@AndrasDeak Teams was public and shipped.
 
7:13 PM
can you tailf multiple files with some utility?
 
user559633
`tail -f *`
e.g. if it's app-N.log, then `tail -f app-*.log`
 
lol
im clearly an idiot :P
 
user559633
I keep a general logstash server kicking around in dev for that reason -- for when I want something more robust than tail
 
@MorganThrapp so why do this and this keep emphasizing the private betaness?
 
user559633
@JoranBeasley meh, don't be rough on yourself. easy to overthink it
 
7:19 PM
@AndrasDeak Huh. Maybe they mean that it had been in beta for that long before shipping?
Or maybe it was still in private beta? Much like Docs, I have no idea what was happening with Teams.
Huh, guess I pissed someone off.
I'm not even sure who for once. :P
 
@MorganThrapp 4 will get reversed
 
You weren't much in here earlier, so I'm sure it wasn't Alex ;)
 
user559633
is the singular of ramen "raman"?
 
@WayneWerner Plus, it happened before all that.
 
@tristan "sad"
 
7:29 PM
@WayneWerner No, that's the plural.
 
What do you call a pack of ramen?
Oh, I guess just a pack.
 
user559633
A pack of... yeah.
 
user559633
I just wanted to change the topic :)
 
I guess it depends on what kind of ramen you're talking about
the rubbish we get here in the states, or something actually delicious
;)
 
@WayneWerner Oooo, I love Lucky Peach.
 
7:36 PM
@MorganThrapp my first experience reading anything there, but I was impressed :)
 
@WayneWerner They're an awesome magazine. One of the absolute best in the food world.
 
user559633
> Here in New York, where are you going to find fresh, warm bread? You’re going to have to seek it out.
 
My brother has a subscription, so I've gotten to read some of their stuff.
 
user559633
lol. uhh, name a 4 block radius in NYC and I'll give you suggestions
 
> Why don’t you use pastured, sustainable, organic meat? And I’m like, Will you pay $25 per bowl of ramen?
 
7:38 PM
Pretty much. I read something interesting the other day on the travel SE
 
user559633
Do you think there's an article on a Japanese food blog about how american ham sandwiches are "more proper"?
 
@Archeg: You will find that the asked prices are correspondingly high to match, but we like it that way. Our cultural self-image is aggressively egalitarian, and many people here prefer paying a fair price in a commercial transaction over having to play the "rich benefactor handing out pittances" charade that seems to be expected abroad. — Henning Makholm Aug 4 at 9:55
Re: Tipping in Denmark
 
Dictate from the boss: "you know all that install/config stuff you struggled with for three weeks? Do it again on the new hire's computer"
 
I wonder if that benefactor idea comes from our Saxon heritage.
@Kevin You weren't taking notes/automating things? :P
 
I wrote down everything I did but I got five minutes into things before it diverged from my script
 
user559633
7:41 PM
> Ramen used to be the last-ditch job before you killed yourself.
 
"Ok, just go into sqlplus..." "doesn't work on my machine, I just get TNS protocol adapter error"
 
user559633
I love this article now.
 
DSM
That was fun! Just got to take a mentee through the process of writing a custom logging handler, never having written one before in my life. Good to teach people how you solve problems.
 
"That's ok, i got that error too. just start the oracle service..." "already started, and restarting does nothing"
 
have you tried turning it off and on again?
 
7:43 PM
it_crowd.gif
 
how do I tell my mentee that we should give up for the day and look at funny pictures on imgur? that's an important part of my process
 
@DSM Nice. I love logging/the logging module
@Kevin So, we'll see them in chat soon, then?
 
user559633
I wrote a logging thing like 3 years ago that I just include in everything
 
Alternately I tried telling them "we should ask $KNOWLEDGEABLE_ABOUT_ORACLE_COWORKER how to fix this, but oh wait I see him leaving the office after a six hour workday, I guess we should wait until he comes back in, although he might be 'working from home' tomorrow" but I couldn't finish my thought because of the implication that he should twiddle his thumbs for up to 40 hours
 
It could be worse. When I started work at the Highway Department, it took almost a week for me to get Internet access
 
7:47 PM
Also I'm sort of responsible for locking him out of his system Oracle user account because I told him to execute a bunch of commands with apparently incorrect syntax
So I can't even say that I've been unhelpful, I've been destructive
 
Oracle has self-defense?
 
I started teaching myself to do things using the browser on my Samsung Sync (shockingly, out of stock on overstock)
 
I liked this better when I was only letting myself down.
 
user559633
@Kevin You get used to it, in time.
 
user559633
Who wants to talk about video games?
 
7:50 PM
When you start enjoying it, that's when it's time for a move into politics.
 
user559633
 
No Man's Sky on the streaming agenda?
Or does that violate the sandbox rule as well?
 
user559633
I didn't buy it. Davidism or Fizzy might stream
 
user559633
My thoughts on the sandbox is that we're just flooded with them. Game logic + assets + map != complete game... most of the time.
 
One of my favorite games was Chuck Yeager's Flight Sim which apparently was rebranded after we got a copy, because Microsoft
 
user559633
7:51 PM
Oh no oh no I was kidding and didn't mean to distract from Kevin's story time
 
user559633
What's the mentee's name @Kevin?
 
If it's Kevin Junior I'm hooked
 
You keep saying mentee and I keep imagining a dugong.
 
user559633
/me hovers mouse cursor waiting to star a "classic Kevin" joke
 
Not because it was actually fun (though I guess it was?) - more because when you drove your airplane into the ground occasionally he would say "You just dug a hole halfway to China!"
 
user559633
7:55 PM
@WayneWerner Yeager Bomber
 
@tristan Hmm, nope, I've got nothing. Setup squandered.
 
Oh man! Someone finally put it up! youtu.be/oXY2YPXZd9w
 
user559633
Wait, you can test pilot an X1? I'm onboard
 
Because it's 2008 again.
 
7:56 PM
If the new guy was named Kevin I would suspect a time paradox, but thankfully it's not the case.
 
Thank you, gentlemen
 
user559633
Fun fact: I almost named my cat "Kevin"
 
user559633
Mostly because I find it hilarious when pets have human names.
 
I don't want some kind of "All you zombies" situation where all my coworkers turn out to be me from other time periods
 
@Kevin it would sound like you to solve your install problem by bothering future Kevin about it...
 
user559633
7:57 PM
"Yeah, Kevin just pooped on the floor and refused to come out from under the bed"
 
I mean, it's kind of implausible because half of them are different ethnicities from me
 
"Steve" is the best cat name.
 
user559633
I can see that
 
@tristan Couldn't be me. I can't fit under the bed.
 
user559633
Holy crap, just found a video of Chuck Yeager's Advanced Flight Simulator. RIP headphones. RIP hearing. (click for loud youtu.be/-hDsF2abxCA?t=237)
 
7:59 PM
Nice little puzzle courtesy of Raymond Hettinger:
>>> 5 in range(10) == True
False
 
I think I know this one.
 
user559633
The True generated in that list expr isn't the same as the True in the global?
 
True is a singleton :-)
 
Isn't True a singleton? And == should be safe even otherwise?
 
Is it because view spoiler
 
8:00 PM
@Kevin Yes.
 
@Kevin Exactly. Ned Batchelder tweeted about it earlier.
 
I'll just read view spoiler
 
Phew. I was second-guessing myself for a second. "Is it in that behaves that way? Or was it is? Or was it both?"
 
it's a rickroll, isn't it?
wat
 
Nah.
 
8:02 PM
that's silly
I'd even call it a pitfall
 
@tristan haha yes - I remember that hanger and delightfully dithered photo of Yeager
 
I guess it's a consequence of the way the parser is built that it would be more work to exclude "in" from view spoiler, compared to just letting it have the same behavior which only really makes sense for the more conventional binary operators.
 
@tristan is that how the internet looked like before facebook?
@Kevin I'd argue that it would make sense to do that work
there seems to be a lot of effort put into making python straightforward
view spoiler doesn't seem like that at all
maybe it's because I'm not Dutch
 
but X in Y == Boolean is unpythonic. X in Y or X not in Y is
 
It's a tradeoff, really. If you make the Cpython code base X units more complicated, in order to make end user's code Y units less complicated, what is the relation between X and Y that makes it worth doing?
 
8:06 PM
@KevinMGranger I guess. Oh, yeah, and in should only return a boolean. Unless it's an in for a for:P
 
As an extreme example, you wouldn't add a million lines to CPython just to prevent one gotcha that inconveniences 0.1 users per year.
 
Yeah but it is crazy that that's the outcome of that statement
 
I agree that this is a pathological case
 
All abstractions are leaky abstractions, but some abstractions are leakier than other
 
wait... isn't in just a lower precedence than ==?
 
8:07 PM
It's surprising, but I can't think of any otherwise good code that would be tripped up by it. On the other hand it is just possible that someone mightr have a use for 'a' in ['a', 'b'] in (['a', 'b'], 'c').
 
@WayneWerner no, range(10)==True is error
 
Here is the precedence table. Looks like in is even with ==.
 
even what?:P
 
even precidentier.
 
Kevin for precedent!
3
 
8:09 PM
In [4]: range(10) == True
Out[4]: False
 
only if he's Kev in
@WayneWerner wait...
 
Python 3.5.1
 
oh poo, sorry about that
I got confused by a parenthesising check of mine, which threw an error. I assumed it came from == rather than "in False", and didn't think twice
sorry
 
Anyway, re: "they should change this behavior", I wager fifty quatloos that the devs would say "but that would break backwards compatibility. Maybe someone depends on this acting the way it does now"
 
>>> "kev" in ["kev", "in"] == True
False
 
8:10 PM
We'll just have to wait for Python 4.
 
@Kevin I don't even think they should change it, not anymore
 
In [7]: dis.dis(fun)
  2           0 LOAD_CONST               1 (5)
              3 LOAD_GLOBAL              0 (range)
              6 LOAD_CONST               2 (10)
              9 CALL_FUNCTION            1 (1 positi
             12 DUP_TOP
             13 ROT_THREE
             14 COMPARE_OP               6 (in)
             17 JUMP_IF_FALSE_OR_POP    27
             20 LOAD_CONST               3 (True)
             23 COMPARE_OP               2 (==)
             26 RETURN_VALUE
        >>   27 ROT_TWO
 
> >>> dis is fun
> False
 
>>> dis is dis, dis and 'dat'
(True, 'dat')
13
 
8:15 PM
lol
 
nice
 
it's a bit unsettling that logical operators don't necessarily return bools, and you have to say not not 'dat' to see that it's truthy
 
That's super weird. Because range(10).__contains__(5).__eq__(True) is True
 
@WayneWerner ?
@WayneWerner that's just (5 in range(10)) == True, right?
 
def fun():
    return 5 in range(10) == True
oh wait... hm. What does ROT_THREE do? and DUP_TOP, for that matter
 
8:24 PM
I'd wildly guess that it duplicates the top object on the stack, then moves stuff to the top? But I really have no idea about assembler stuff
or how python works internally, for that matter:(
 
user559633
rotate three
[1,2,3] ... [2,3,1]
 
if I'm right, that dup_top is exactly the view spoiler
 
"shockingly", searching Google for "python ROT_THREE" - docs.python.org/3/library/dis.html#opcode-ROT_THREE
 
it needs to check it twice, like Santa
 
user559633
yay :) i remember some of these
 
8:26 PM
wow, I might have actually guessed it
 
does that mean that it's doing range(10) in range(10)? So confused -_-
 
no
it duplicates range(10), then pushes one of them to the bottom of the stack
Or almost bottom? Something like that
 
The bottom? Not the top?
 
I might not be the best partner for this discussion:)
anyway:
ROT_THREE
    Lifts second and third stack item one position up, moves top down to position three.
DUP_TOP
    Duplicates the reference on top of the stack.
so it's
range(10)
5

then
range(10)
range(10)
5

then
range(10)
5
range(10)
then it checks if "5 in range(10)" from the top of the stack, and checks whether to short-circuit
if it's True, it checks whether range(10)==True, from the bottom of the stack
at least that's my uneducated take on the subject
trailing disclaimer: the above should not be taken as facts
that's what you all get for leaving the room without any gurus:P
 
Oh. I thought this was the disassembly for range(10) == True and was super confused.
 
user559633
 
user559633
Please leave it.
 
Has anybody ever suggested that DSM become benevolent DSM, or BDSM for short?
 
user559633
:|
 
sorry, I'm not as good as you in changing subjects:D
 
LOAD_CONST 5 => 5
LOAD_GLOBAL range => 3, 5
LOAD_CONST 10 => 5, range, 10
CALL FUNCTION 1 => 5, range(10)
DUP_TOP => 5, range(10), range(10)
ROT_THREE => range(10), 5, range(10)
COMPARE_OP in => range(10), True
JUMP_IF_FALSE_OR_POP => range(10)
LOAD_CONST True => range(10), True
COMPARE_OP == -> False
RETURN_VALUE =>
 
user559633
@AndrasDeak haha
 
user559633
Davidism, you don't look too well. You should go home and stream No Man's Sky
 
It's that weird python A comp B comp C => A comp B && B comp C thing
 
@QuestionC Nooo!
 
@WayneWerner LuckyPeach is wrong about the chicken fat in US (or maybe he's wrong regionally as chicken fat, high quality even butcher, is and has been available a bunch of places I live/lived)
 
8:43 PM
@AndrasDeak Wat?
 
43 mins ago, by Kevin
Is it because view spoiler
;)
 
@QuestionC That mostly makes sense, heh
oooooooooooh
 
Sorry. I would delete the comment if I could but I hope 40 minutes is past the statute of limitations.
 
@QuestionC oh, no, by "Nooo!" I meant "no kidding, duh" :P
 
he is right about the noodles though, US gets crap in stores: except when I lived in SC cause military presence meant more Japanese immigrants - Marines marry Japanese girls and move back to States - sooooo good
 
8:46 PM
It's interesting to me that Python bytecode is stack based.
My graphing calculator in High School used the same thing. It was my intro to programming without goto.
 
@tristan what's the situation with the earring backings?
 
I see it's been hitting the fan while I've been away?
 
aww, I might actually have to move to more PHP and R (less Python but I refuse to not use it)
 
@Ffisegydd I wouldn't call it that. Maybe a tempest in a teapot?
not even that
 
8:48 PM
stack based makes sense though.
 
so Pyth is extra stack based
 
Keep Python forever in your heart so you can understand why those languages are so bad.
 
user559633
@AndrasDeak Gone forever, but I think it would be more expensive to reseal/put-back the plumbing than it would have been to retrieve
 
user559633
@Ffisegydd Just one thing and all tidied up.
 
@tristan sounds right
 
8:50 PM
Okay. So Suicide Squad? Really enjoyed it. Have no idea what people are smoking when they say it was worse than BvS.
 
@Ffisegydd awesome!
 
Solid summer film.
 
user559633
@Ffisegydd Bad plot but fun?
 
You're the first credible source about the movie except you're Fizzy and I don't believe you.
 
Not even that bad a plot, just your typical action hero film (so yes I suppose bad :P)
Bit of a slow start, introducing the back stories.
Cara DeSupermodel was not the best actress but wasn't as bad as people made out.
 
8:51 PM
@Ffisegydd Cara Eyebrows Delevingne?
she's scary
I'm looking more and more forward to this movie btw, we'll probably watch it next week
 
I hereby invoke my monthly "You can take what I'm saying seriously, I am not trolling in this particular instance, I'm actually saying something serious now guys" comment, are you all ready?
 
braces himself
 
user559633
I'm going to try to catch it this weekend. It was sold out last week
 
I prefer Jared Leto's Joker to Heath Ledger's.
 
user559633
Wait, give me a second.
 
8:53 PM
abort brace
 
@Ffisegydd Some of the more restrained criticism I've seen says that the trailer misrepresents the film; i.e. presents it as GoTG crazy fun when it's really more in the SnyderDark vein. Would you say that's unfair?
 
this is the Python room, no braces allowed
 
I'm not saying that Jared Leto's is better, and Ledger was amazing, I just prefer the style of Leto's.
 
Fizzy please watch Secret Life of Pets next
 
@Zero it's not as funny as the trailer makes out, the trailer makes it out to be a laugh-a-minute. It's definitely not that. It's definitely not SnyderDark serious though.
 
8:54 PM
oh wait, we won't be watching that for a while...no subbed version here:S
 
user559633
Would it be better or worse to have a few drinks before seeing?
 
Just watch the RLM review: youtube.com/watch?v=ePoxmPMwJNQ
 
So yes I'd say that criticism was unfair.
 
user559633
GF loves movies, so when there's something I'd go see, we typically try to do a dinner/drinks/hangout around it
 
I'm not sure what having a few drinks would do except make you leer at Robbie more.
 
8:55 PM
I know I like the look of this Joker (Jared Leto)
it reminds me of some of the darker Batman series (comics not TV)
 
Uncanny Batman?
I nailed that, right?
 
Leto's Joker is really good, and I know a lot of people were furious when he was announced/shown.
 
user559633
These walls have eyes
 
@AndrasDeak like New 52 series
 
user559633
Well, everyone knows that if our preferences and opinions aren't validated, it destroys our ability to continue having them.
 
user559633
8:58 PM
I thought no man's sky was out today
 
For PS4 yes.
PC on 12th.
 
user559633
Whoa. Sony throwing that money around
 
@Ffisegydd people are insane
 
This is true.
 
Not because he's good or bad, but because it's acting, and thus ranks near the bottom of everything, in the category "things to be furious about"
 
@AndrasDeak err you know I'm anti skub, right?
 
user559633
Awkward.
 
@tristan please tell that Robert that I don't mix with its kind.
unless you're anti-skub too o.O
 
Skub for president!
 
Anti-skub for precedent!
 
9:29 PM
Guys Skub is not real.
 
there's too little Charlie in my life
 
I never pegged you for a coke fiend
 
Those subliminal messages have no effect on me
 
why does python OOM without using swap?
 
I don't know I don't speak Dutch
 
user559633
9:33 PM
@LyubenTodorov The OS should be handling that.
 
(purely academic question btw)
code:
import uuid
ids = []
for i in range(900000000):
ids/append(str(uuid.uuid4()))
 
@JGreenwell I think it's Hindi
 
This may help, although still seems weird that it wouldn't swap
 
@tristan I'm a novice so forgive the lack of deep knowledge. Does python have access to native memory when it uses loops? Or is the allocation done is the vm memory
 
user559633
@LyubenTodorov everything goes through the VM in python
 
9:37 PM
oh, and I concur: my ubuntu which is very swap-happy by default, will gladly start swapping when my ipython gets out of hand
 
@tristan @RobertGrant Thanks!
 
anecdotal evidence of course
not even evidence
 
user559633
@LyubenTodorov no problem
 
Err, what's the question though? Does the python VM have a lower memory limit than the process itself?
 
9:45 PM
@LyubenTodorov do you really need that many ids at once? Whatever you're doing you can probably use a generator for.
 
@davidism I assume that's just an MCVE for quick out-of-memory?
 
Yeah, my point was that usually you can avoid that situation.
 
user6568562
Good night, everybody [ :
 
rhubarb
 
guten rhubarb
 
10:01 PM
Rbrb :-)
 
rbrb
 
crap, I have the same fortran code on two different clusters; one has ifort, the other gfortran, and their MPI libraries differ too probably. One of the computations diverges, the other runs fine, but with the exact same input... </fortrant>
 
10:26 PM
lol. Good times
 
and I've already told gfortran to zero-initialize local variables...ooooh damn, what if it's not a local?
thanks, @WayneWerner
nevermind, I might be confusing myself right now
yeah, that should be OK :(
 
Confusing one's self is always the best
 
I'll manually zero-initialize what my predecessors failed to do, and see if that helps (it shouldn't)
 
@AndrasDeak the default for ifort is -check noinit so unless they changed that
though it might affect whether the initialized variables end up in Data or BSS sections
 
10:43 PM
@JGreenwell yes, my troubles are with gfortran
 
oh, doesn't it have -finit-local-zero option?
oh, nevermind I missed where you said you did that already
 
user559633
have you tried turning it off and on again?
 
it also seems that there are no legitly uninitialized variables either, at least I'm almost through checking all suspects
 
is it sad that I know this stuff - I blame academia! ;)
 
10:48 PM
@tristan alas, I have:(
 
user559633
@AndrasDeak hmm. have you tried updating adobe reader?
 
that I haven't
 
user559633
That's all I got
 
me too, it's not the uninitialized variables:(
I'll ask the boss tomorrow
 
Uh, there's a question about deploying a Flask app called "how lit". I'm going home. Rhubarb.
 
user559633
10:53 PM
@davidism As in counterstrike?
 
:D
@davidism bae
 
user559633
Before Application Environment
 
11:13 PM
I give up for today...
also rhubarb
 
DSM
Are you taking bets on what it will turn out to be?
Oh, missed my chance. Well, rhubarb. :-)
 
of course I am
 
user559633
Running a different copy of your code?
 
Hm. Is there a way to have pandas read a csv that has no titles? I can read it in, but when I do df it shows the first row as bold
 
I'm currently running test calculations on both clusters, hoping that a needle will poke me in the eye if I jump head-front into the haystacks
 
DSM
11:18 PM
@Wayne:header=None?
 
herp. Turns out I have to run all my ipython cells
 
so anything other than "let's try to find the first divergence in the most verbose output setting" is helpful:P
 
or at least, the ones that have header=None
 
nope, waiting to get poked in the eye is my usual tactic there
 
DSM
@AndrasDeak: I once had differences between fortran outputs which turned out to be because of differences in the floating point flags. There were two differences, one of them was that ifort (I think -- could be the other way around) was preserving precision in intermediate calculations that the other wasn't, and another was that the defaults were different about what kind of reorderings they permitted.
My problem had a very short Lyapunov timescale so the differences became macroscopic very rapidly.
 
11:22 PM
:S
reassuring...
 
had someone once set real to initial to nan (not even 'snan') but I don't think that is your problem
 
we have an iterative procedure at one point in the code, and it happens to blow up with gfortran \o/
 
DSM
That's excellent news, no?
 
@JGreenwell me neither, but there shouldn't be any uninit variables. But I'll try that anyway if my verbose output doesn't help (and I don't think it will, by the looks of it)
@DSM no, because there's no sign of what's going wrong:D
and no warnings
(colloquially speaking)
I'll try to hit it again after some sleep, but I'm not looking forward to it
thanks for letting me vent, I'm taking my off-topicness to bed:) (until tomorrow, of course)
rhubarb for real now
 
DSM
Enjoy!
 
11:27 PM
night Andras
 
DSM
Actually, that's an excellent idea, come to think of it. Rhubarb from me as well!
 
night DSM then
 

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