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4:52 AM
morning!
 
5:37 AM
cbg
 
5:58 AM
good morning
 
6:22 AM
gm
 
@RobertGrant awesom-O
 
6:41 AM
Guys im going to build notification server with python and autobahn.ws as vaultah suggested yesterday. After many readings Im undecided whether to use twisted or asyncio to do this kind of thing. youtube.com/watch?v=yIdmk2doU8w&feature=youtu.be
any advice?
 
Hello guys, any idea about Windows-> run command -> \\144.16.xx.xx : these type of commands? This command open an explorer in windows. anybody knows about this?
 
@krozaine That doesn't look like Python.
 
I want the linux equivalent command for it.. which I want to execute as shell using os.sys python
 
What do you want to do? Not in some pseudo code - what action do you want to take in words?
Because chances are that anyone that uses Linux to do whatever you want doesn't have a clue what you mean with that run command -> \\144.16.xx.xx code.
 
7:09 AM
@krozaine search for samba mount and something like that...
 
7:46 AM
Monday morning cabbage, all
 
cbg
@MarlonAbeykoon hasn't autobahn.ws already implemented that?
oh nvm
it works on both
 
@MarlonAbeykoon afaik autobahn supports both, you're free to use what you like
I'd go for asyncio
 
@krozaine you are likely looking at a Windows network share
 
@MarlonAbeykoon Also go for asyncio, just because Twisted is only supported on a legacy version of Python. They are trying to modernise, but aren't there yet.
 
8:04 AM
thanks ppl
 
8:25 AM
@Bob +1 for using the term "legacy"
 
Cabbage. Hey up, Fizzy.
 
Hey up
 
Do we have a "Why you should use Python 3" doc, apart from the brief note in What tutorial should I read?
 
No, that's quite an oversight for the wiki.
 
Yesterday I wrote a 3-part comment, but it'd be nice to have something I could just link.
With all due respect, your teachers' advice is a little out of date. Several years ago it was common to recommend Py 2 over Py 3, but that's no longer the case. Back then, many important 3rd party Python libraries didn't support Py 3, but now the vast majority of Python libraries do have Py 3 versions. Also, the core Py 3 language itself has improved in various ways. — PM 2Ring yesterday
 
8:31 AM
hey guys, someone uses haystack + elasticsearch on Django here?
 
@MarcoAcierno just ask your question sopython.com/chatroom
Unless that's your actual question. And welcome to the room ;)
 
8:48 AM
oh ok thank you, didn't read the rules, sorry. Anyway: I've to order the results of a search using the value of a field type that is a MultiValueField field, for example: if one of the values of type is card the result should be moved to the end of the results, otherwise that can follow the normal order_by order. Is that clear enough?
@vaultah aha, thanks :)
Sorry for the actual question, by reading online I suppose I have to use a custom sort script, but seems like Elasticsearch doesn't support it, should I extend the elasticsearch backend to support that or I'm missing something?
 
that's it. I am gonna stop updating django from today
enough breakage
 
At least the Django devs do try to give warning of breaking changes
 
9:06 AM
every release breaks something. I don't think that's how it's supposed to be
 
I thought Django was buried by Rails a while ago :/
 
dunno about Rails but Django is too complicated to be any good
most of the time, I have no idea what it is doing
unless you are a core dev or smth
 
@khajvah but it is well documented :-)
I genuinely found the Django docs to be great
 
yeah docs are nice
 
@khajvah Surely that's exactly the way it's supposed to be :P
 
9:12 AM
That's why I've never tried to make web stuff with this framework,. hate complicated things., using rails you can get job done quickly. and make very complex app within a short time due to rich number of open source libraries it offers
 
Need to break things to improve, otherwise it'd stagnate with poor design choices.
 
I doubt it will ever be fixed. it's too complicated
 
9:33 AM
@PM2Ring Nice attention to detail! I'd prepend the and to the last element and then join the lot.
 
I do love a bit of Oxford comma.
 
Of grammatical things I love, of which there are many, high amongst them rank the abuse of the colon, semicolon; apostrophe, and the Oxford comma.
3
;)
I particularly enjoy their inconsistent use.
 
That is, impressive
 
Bah! Got to review some mediocre papers on Data Sciencing. Rule mining in particular. They read like someone has said to their students - at the end of your final year dissertation, submit your paper for publication. Then some chump will have to review them for you. Hi there
</MondayGrump>
 
@PM2Ring I'm from Cambridge, deal with it. (Or just use '{}, and {}'.format(..))
 
9:42 AM
:D
 
Prelude> map (*4) [1,2,3]
[4,8,12]
haskell is sexy
 
Yeah, I've been doing a lot of Scala lately which is similarly functional.
arr filter bar map foo foreach println is perfectly valid code, so beautiful.
 
I am afraid to get addicted and stop doing Python
 
10:04 AM
@Ffisegydd yeah that is cool
Sorry, how is that not spam?
 
@RobertGrant val.method(arg) can be written as val method arg so really that code could be written as arr.filter(bar).map(foo).foreach(println)
@shad0wk The hell?
 
@shad0wk Why should anybody want that?
 
@Ffisegydd yeah I have touched a tiny bit of scala, but never done it properly
 
user6438653
I don't know, just asking.
 
10:11 AM
@shad0wk please don't ever advertise like that in here again.
 
I can't quite figure out what your job is that you get to use all these cool techs, but I'm jealous :)
 
I'm Head Fizzy.
 
user6438653
Okay, sorry, just asking.
 
user6438653
Well bye.
 
Bye.
 
10:12 AM
That sounds like a good job
 
It hath its privileges.
 
@RobertGrant sbt is bad, scala is good
 
sbt?
 
@khajvah I've never had a problem with sbt, though I've yet to use it in anger.
Scala Build Tool
 
Scala Bath Towels?
Ah
 
10:16 AM
It's like Maven but for Scala
 
I remember having problems with its versions
 
Ah okay
 
@MartijnPieters I've posted a new answer that handles the Oxford comma properly; it also copes with an empty list. :p
 
oxford_comma=False
 
10:39 AM
@bereal: We can't expect a Dutchman to adhere to obscure optional rules of English grammar. ;)
 
:)
 
I'll be keeping an eye out for such shoddy grammatical practices next time I log into Facebook.
 
cbg
documentation is just b0rken
someone had raised an issue on the Python 2 / 3 compatibility topic that it should be split...
 
Actual snerk.
 
so, the ... can't remember what it was called
was just removed ... no change to the actual topic
0
Q: Earned Creditor and Bluebook badge for same answer and cited topic

René VogtI earned a Creditor and a Bluebook badge for the same citation in the same answer. As the description states: Creditor is awarded for the "First citation of a topic or example you haven't contributed to...", and Bluebook is awarded for the "First citation of a topic or example you've contribut...

 
11:20 AM
For this one (chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/32174380#32174380) how does the server know something has changed in DB? without using SQL triggers cos I use Big query which has no trigger support. Should I run a python process to execute background checking what data is updated?
 
@MarlonAbeykoon don't.
sql database is not a messaging queue.
however if you'd use PostgreSQL say, there are many other approaches beyond triggers
@AndrasDeak @PeterVaro demonstrators in Finland
(the last word is indeed medicine)
 
please god, no...
 
actually we develop a BI tool digin.io/entry which is a beta still. it supports sqlserver, postgresql, mysql and mainly bigquery. Other DBs I can make use of triggers problem is bigquery..
 
@MarlonAbeykoon well, you can't.
make another database and compare the 2
 
mmm ok
 
11:31 AM
That picture :(
 
@khajvah ^ demonstrations here.
 
@AnttiHaapala those kind policemen
 
@khajvah Finland is so liberal that even this human waste can organize a demonstration freely :D
the police is guarding that no one attacks them
 
what is it about?
what's "orban"?
 
this is about closing the borders of Finland and forcing immigrants out,
Orban is the PM of Hungary
 
11:38 AM
oh I see
 
who among others, changed the Constitution of Hungary so that it doesn't say that Hungary is a republic.
@khajvah the local autocrat there
 
Finland is so liberal that people get bored and don't realize how nice it is and are trying to ruin it
:D
 
exactly.
 
I should contact one of them and switch passports. we have local autocrat and everything in here.
 
Just googled Finnish police and was very impressed with the Youtube "running man challenge" :)
 
11:43 AM
they'd be happy... I guess
@JRichardSnape which one is that?
 
@khajvah I guess with enough variables and imperfect information it can be hard to tell the difference between a local maximum and the actual maximum :-)
 
@JRichardSnape my hometown
just biked past the statue
 
@AnttiHaapala Ahh. If only Bhargav were here to give the correct salutation!
 
the salutation is "torilla tavataan"
 
11:45 AM
@RobertGrant Niiiiice
 
or "let's meet at the market square"
 
torilla tavataan!
 
the statue is of the "market police"
and at the market :P
 
Very apt
 
Sounds like something to eat to me...
 
11:46 AM
@ByteCommander You've imagined an extra "t" ;)
 
Yup, I guess so. Now I'm hungry :)
 
@RobertGrant Always good to demonstrate that any complex situation can be reduced to a multi-variate optimisation. I regularly try to convince my colleagues of the same, strangely they no longer want to go to lunch with me...
 
:_D
Yeah I can pretty much never use the phrase "local maximum", which is a shame because it's really useful
 
@JRichardSnape different police depts in Finland have had pretty awesome social media ops lately
 
11:52 AM
I like it when people in serious jobs don't take themselves too seriously.
 
@JRichardSnape my hometown police had this christmas greeting: youtube.com/watch?v=B6EiVmA3tuo
 
hello there! can anyone have been in touch with AWS S3 servers?
 
guy used to sing in the national opera but resigned to join the police dept in Oulu lol.
@Damian yes...
 
@RobertGrant I am very tempted to use it on my boss quite regularly. He's a bloody engineer, should be well used to spotting it. As he says "we're going to undertake a radical, innovative, blah blah approach to blah blah blah" I just say "Optimising for local maximum" and walk out. In my dreams that is.
 
@AnttiHaapala do u have a while?
 
11:54 AM
@Damian no, I do not have a while really.
 
Hey JRS. As a mathematics educator you may also enjoy (or hate :) ) this:
21 hours ago, by PM 2Ring
Hey @JGreenwell You might enjoy this XKCD forum thread: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?. Or you might find it extremely frustrating, and wish you could grab the OP by the shoulders and shake some sense into him. :)
 
but you can ask your actual question and then if anyone can answer that then they will do.
 
@PM2Ring I looked earlier. Couldn't bring myself to keep reading after p. 2. I may return later...
@AnttiHaapala He's some singer!
 
@JRichardSnape I can relate to that. :)
 
@Damian Hi, check out the rules here - in particular we ask that you don't post very new questions in here - people will probably pick them up on the main site. If there's no answer after a couple of days, you're welcome to post here. In the meantime, feel free to stay and chat :)
 
11:59 AM
okay then..
 
Straw poll: stored procedures create db vendor lockin. Bearing that in mind, are they still worth using?
 
@RobertGrant stored procedures are worth using if a) you are completely happy with your database technology, and b) you want the advantages of procedures stored locally on the server. Some companies (and government agencies) require the use of stored procedures to limit code control to a subset of developers. By refusing to accept arbitrary queries you can sometimes simplify things by (e.g.) not installing triggers because you control all updates and so can predict when they'll happen.
 
Cabbage
 
12:07 PM
@holdenweb that makes sense, thanks
 
Note, though, that typically the RDBMS won't offer change control, so that has to be applied externally.
 
When you say change control, do you mean SP code versioning?
 
@RobertGrant I use stored procedures for complex analytics that couldn't be written in the DSL for the database.
In this case, complex analytics can be written once and then called from within queries, rather than N analysts writing the same analytic N times.
 
Yeah, that makes sense
Also data security should happen at one single layer rather than every application deciding who gets to see what
(Well, bit of a blurred line, but true for some stuff)
 
yeah
also, how do stored procedures make you locked in?
it is just another abstraction level
 
12:11 PM
Well, if I write a load of PL/SQL then I can't suddenly move from Oracle to SQL Server, for example
Because I'd have to translate all the logic
 
yes...
 
So... in that way :-)
 
Well really you couldn't move from Oracle because you've tied yourself to the Devil, but I see your point.
 
but if you didn't then you still couldn't move to since perhaps all your code implicitly assumed that it works against oracle
 
Yeah perhaps, but SPs seem the most obvious point at which that's true
 
12:12 PM
at least now you've written the code against the sps instead
 
I guess I'm just quite surprised that there's no SP standard
 
which should be more readily rewritten to another infra than 10 times the amount of application code
 
Yeah that's true
Except if you use Oracle Application Express, in which case your entire application is written in PL/SQL :)
Oracle also has Java Stored Procedures, which in theory sound more cross-platform, but I don't think anyone other than Sybase (now I think swallowed by MS) support them, and I'm pretty sure MS would've canned that in favour of C#
Ironically making it harder for people to move from Oracle to MS databases
 
user559633
12:30 PM
The Devil sometimes has a convincing pitch. C# for instance.
 
SQL Server definitely seems less Devilish than Oracle
 
user559633
And yes, I'm convinced that Microsoft hires smart people, then puts them under short-sighted empty suits or whatever the younger idiot equivalent of a project manager is called.
 
I think at one point he was called Joel :)
 
user559633
'suggest the use of tokenizers which is not what I am looking for. '
yes, that is actually what you're looking for
 
user559633
'Japan's Emperor Akihito: Ten things you may not know' -- I find it depressing that this clickbait form is everywhere now.
 
12:35 PM
@RobertGrant postgresql supports python stored procedures...
 
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/38827476/how-to-compute-server-si‌​de-js-calls-from-a-web-scrapper-to-fetch-important-data (tool recommendation)
@AnttiHaapala ooh
So Oracle supports Java SPs, SQL Server C# SPs and PostgreSQL Python SPs. Feel the portability!
 
dunno how good ^that is.
python is easier because it is pretty trivial to embed the python interpreter
master of trolling ^
 
Oh thanks - I did see the first post on the postgresql mailing list about that
 
"Why don't you do this, since Django can do this2
 
user559633
Yeah, Pylons is a pretty good troll
 
12:39 PM
@AnttiHaapala wow
@tristan :_)
How did you do with Doom? Did it carry on for long after I left?
 
user559633
> Django doesn't make this kind of mistake.
"Please, keep your inflammatory comments to yourself."

lol, what kind of sheltered internet is this guy on?
 
user559633
@RobertGrant ended soon after. realized it was approaching 5 hours
 
@tristan :D
 
user559633
"this other thing doesn't make a mistake." WHOA GUY EASY ON THE INTERNET RAGE
 
I was going to buy Doom and play it this weekend but my SSD died.
 
12:41 PM
@Programmer doh
 
user559633
you could have just watched the stream so you could watch me have your fun for you
 
I didn't see you online. When was it?
 
Yeah I know. I might finish watching tonight
With sound, as a treat
 
@tristan did you read it all :D
 
user559633
@RobertGrant I can stream it again
 
user559633
12:41 PM
@AnttiHaapala No, I skimmed it because I'm 2 Hungover 4 Internet Egos
 
Do you lose the stream once you record the next one?
 
I think M.M. handled that pretty well
 
user559633
> Pyramid does not rely on any global state and fully supports running multiple separate Pyramid apps in the same process - each having their own configuration. You cannot do this with Django.
 
... if I was there, that guy would have needed someone to defend himself
 
user559633
got to there and realized i didn't care, much like people probably don't care about running multiple pyramid apps in a single process
 
user559633
12:42 PM
the implication being what, you would have beat him up for not liking your preferred forgettable library?
 
user559633
"i find this confusing compared to django"
- "uhh it does this other thing that no one uses or thinks is important. checkmate, bitch"
 
@tristan you're approaching inflammatory here. Are you sure it is hangover or are you still being drunk?
 
user559633
@AnttiHaapala I think both, somehow.
 
when I am having hangover I cannot be aggressive... actually I am not aggressive when drunk either.
 
user559633
12:44 PM
I need to make some coffee so I have the energy to post inflammatory, lazy trolls all day.
 
I am aggressive only when very sober.
which is most of the time
 
"Sorry Michael, on another topic, what's the name of that guy who did The Revolution Will Not Be Televised? Something Scott Heron?"
 
user559633
I only get aggressive when someone is being rude or if they're treating someone I care about badly.
 
@RobertGrant Gil Scott-Heron
 
user559633
Michael Scott Heron
 
12:45 PM
BOOM, MICHAEL! GIL SCOTT HERON
GIL
etc
 
user559633
Oh, read a little more.
 
user559633
> "Pyramid does not rely on any global state and fully supports running multiple separate Pyramid apps in the same process - each having their own configuration. You cannot do this with Django."
- "I don't know why you want to run multiple separate pyramid apps in the same process, especially when you consider the GIL, so I don't see why this is a feature."
"I'm not interested in getting baited into a conversation about the GIL. You're bringing up things that are simply not problems in the reality of a web framework"
 
user559633
wtf mmerickel, you brought it up
 
user559633
Pylons seems like a good project to avoid.
 
@tristan please do avoid :d
 
12:47 PM
should I grab popcorn or I am late already?
 
nah, marshmallows so you can roast them over the flames
 
niiiic
 
@khajvah well I guess you can join after the interval :D
 
Followup post:
 
user559633
idk. i get the suspicion that maybe Antti actually maybe is getting a bit bothered by my comments as it seems that people that use Pylons are insecure and feel the need to defend their django knock-off
 
12:48 PM
GIL, Michael. GIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIL!
 
shotsfired
 
@tristan that is the lamest attempt at trolling from you since... your birth.
 
user559633
haha yeah it was pretty naked bait
 
user559633
django is terrible and the culture-politics that its team wants to spread is fucking toxic
 
cabbage, folks
 
user559633
12:51 PM
cbg
 
it is fairly easy to do that in Pyramid, but the guy is using unittesting to test the system, ffs.
 
user559633
@AnttiHaapala I like how he opens without editing to give context
 
user559633
> Problem is, I can misspell the name in one place or the other and my tests will pass, but in production my site fails because my unit test isn't testing my config, its testing a tightly coupled mock config.
 
user559633
12:53 PM
Sounds like he has a lot of imagined problems and some mistakes in approaches
 
that is what unittesting is.
you mock things.
 
user559633
well, also, it seems as if he wants to add routes to test that don't exist in the "production" version of the application
 
What he says is pretty much: "I am following your unit-testing methodology to do integration tests, but it will fail because I want to do integration tests and not unit tests. Django does not allow me to unit-test things, therefore you should change pyramid so that it only ever allows integration testing"
anw, he seems to be so distressed for having to work with pyramid
 
user559633
I don't think he was being insulting
 
12:58 PM
hoho :d
 
> Django doesn't make this kind of mistake, the routes that the app uses are available for "reversing" in Django parlance. Why on earth would Pyramid not have that kind of state available while testing?
I don't know the context, but I already like the guy
 
@khajvah How is that argument making sense? How is "slave" racially loaded?
 
> Go to Stack Overflow and ask your programming question, with a minimal, complete and verifiable example, there
 
@paul23 it is not.
 
> with a minimal, complete and verifiable example
 
12:58 PM
Should've sent them to SOD
 
lol I like how you added that
@paul23 firefox spend $10k donations on that I think
 
Doesn't make it true.
 

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