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12:11 AM
If I create a .py file and starting writing the first lines of code, I am the author and I toot my horn :)
 
12:40 AM
Looking for pointers to help a dyed-in-the-wool C programmer internalize the python way of doing things, while still near the "hello world" stage of learning python. Particular problem areas are dynamic typing and how to organize source for a multi-file application.
 
What I did in your situation was just start doing the problems on ProjectEuler in python. How's your math?
 
Very very rusty.
 
I think it's still worth a shot. The first couple problems aren't bad.
 
I have a little project I'm trying to do, which looks like it will wind up with multiple tools sharing common functions.
Text processing rather than math.
some html parsing and creating.
Possibly too ambitious for my python level, but a "toy project" for my C level, except that C is not the language anyone would want to use to parse html, JSON, or freeform text
 
It's going to be easier in Pyton I assure you.
 
12:50 AM
yeah. 3 years ago I would have used perl. Never liked perl, but it was what I knew of for complex scripts. And at least it had hashes (= dictionaries)
 
That's like my favorite problem site. Just start solving problems like a tutorial and check StackOverflow or ask here for questions (It's better to go to the site for questions and here for complaining about the language or singing its praises)
 
discovered python could do anything perl can, and be maintainable. So I'm learning python. No more perl, if I get a choice.
@QuestionC - oh adventoccode looks like fun
 
Project Euler too man, trust me. It just gets hard after the first 10 or so.
They're basically good toy projects.
 
Hmm, would I be starting the vim vs emacs wars if I asked advice re which version of python to adopt?
 
The general advice of the room is use 3.
Some people use 2, but the main argument for 2 around here is being used to it.
The main difference is unicode handling, and 3 does it better.
 
12:54 AM
I briefly worked for a place that banned 3. They were going to have only one version of python in their system, and since they already had some in 2, or maybe some libraries they needed.
They also banned perl.
 
As for the specific questions... let's say you want to use multiple files.
 
yes, I was looking at the various flavours of strings in the 2 pythons.
 
You write a util.py and want to use its foo method. Then you just do this.
import util

util.foo()
 
I'm expecting to have multiple tools that may behave like typical unix scripts, sharing many common functions
 
That's it.
 
12:58 AM
How does a "normal" python person break things down? In C, I'd go with one class per file, or similar
 
As for typing, just don't think about it.
 
OK, that's C++, but same idea
What about pulling foo() right into the callers namespace. I think that's "from util.py use foo()" - something like that. Is it sensible, or will I wind up making a perl-esque unmaintainable mess?
 
When you import util is it creates a util namespace that contains all the functions in util.py. Python uses the same notation for namespace member and class member access.
It's bad practice.
 
so if I've got foo.py with class foo, I'm going to be typing foo.foo a lot ;-)
with types, it's just that I see my data as a C struct, internally, and want the language to keep me from putting the wrong stuff in one - except it's just a dictionary, and anything goes
internally == in my head.
so I started making classes, with accessors, and fear I'm being basically weird, to a python person
 
You also don't need classes nearly as much as C++.
And yea, python's typing is a weakness in the sense that you miss errors that could be caught at compile time, but your programs are so much shorter that they're easier to reason about so you don't make those mistakes as often as you'd think.
 
1:05 AM
@ArlieStephens you can do from foo import * which allows you to call foo(), but this should generally be avoided in order to keep your namespace clean
 
except when you are a noob, like me right now ;-)
 
They actually added types to python recently, but I'd avoid them. The syntax is gross.
 
sort of related, consider a tree-like data structure. let's say it looks like a directory tree in your favourite file system
Obviously you could have an array or dict, which contains containers....
but I think in C's pointers, and wind up glassy eyed trying to figure out how to build it in python. I think I need an example or something
@QuestionC - now that's an argument for 3 -
 
don't think in C's pointers, that will confuse you
 
that's like trying to not think in english, after 5 days of spanish class ;-(
 
1:09 AM
I found this to be very enlightening
not strictly related to your problem, but you should read that early on
also, I'm pretty sure there's a library for efficient storage and traversal of tree-like structures:P
 
A directory tree would be a good case for classes actually because this code is repetetive, but it's not hard to do.
 
yes, that definitely looks helpful. I think I'm spoiled - my main language is really really clear on whether I have 2 things or only 2 references to one thing.
 
>>> root = (".", [])
>>> home = ("home", [])
>>> root[1].append(home)
>>> etc = ("etc", [])
>>> root[1].append(etc)
>>> mydir = ('questionc', [])
>>> home[1].append(mydir)
>>> print(root)
('.', [('home', [('questionc', [])]), ('etc', [])])
>>>
 
oops last comment was @AndrasDeak
 
And you could write a function to print that in a pretty way or something.
You can do pretty much anything with tuples, lists, and dicts. You just have to get into that state of mind and start asking yourself 'how'.
The downside is Python is slow
 
1:13 AM
@QuestionC - that little snippet is incredibly simple, from my C-based POV
Fortunately, I don't expect more than about 10K lines of data in my little project, so slow shouldn't be a problem... and that's a factor of 10 above the current size
 
In general, you don't write data structures in Python. It's like the command and control language.
 
I am going to be stretching my brain. Hopefully not entirely out of shape ;-)
 
Do adventofcode.com or projecteuler.com
They're really good.
 
when I start a project, I generally start with the data structures. Get those right, and the code takes care of itself. In C, that is
Been too long in one language, I fear.
 
I was a virtually exclusive C++ programmer for 10-ish years before I learned Python. C experience helps, not hurts.
 
1:17 AM
hmm - I suppose I could produce a hybrid, with python processing the text and C dealing with the structure. But I think that would be a monster, and way overengineered
 
The structures you need are already probably built into Python.
 
I guess I'm just at a painful point in the learning curve right now
 
You should stop worrying:)
 
yep. I suspect the data may belong in sqlite or mysql or similar, and I know python has libraries for that
 
snakes have much worse reputation than deserved
 
1:19 AM
hehe
it might eat my kitten!
 
Just code stuff. You could have solved the first adventofcode in the time you spent here.
 
also, it would probably help (both technically and self-esteem-wise) if you did a few simple programming problems, like QuestionC suggested
 
too true.
 
not a multi-cultural diverse thingy you're planning
you should start worrying about databases and html parsing and whatnot once you're confident with the base language itself
 
Big projects sound cool, but honestly you have to enjoy little things like calculating primes and text adventures to actually learn how to program.
 
1:21 AM
you are right, of course. It's just I'm using the fact that I need this tool as motivation to actually learn python
I do have a day job - which I'm slacking off at right now
 
that's what SO is for
 
yep. usually I just answer C questions though. or read some of the non-comp sites like the sci fi one
 
wim
@JRichardSnape Are you referring to the case where len(set(xs)) < len(xs) (or similar for ys)?
 
I also just answer C questions.
 
1:38 AM
thank you very much.
 
2:12 AM
^^; I just spent 20 minutes trying to figure out how if obj is not None: obj.do() was returning an uncallable NoneType. Turns out I was using an older version of a library that didn't have do. It'll be a while before I get used to python's error message vocabulary...
@ArlieStephens 2.7 doesn't really change much, while 3 is still in progress (but generally faster/more efficient). They're both powerful and you just need to remember which you're using when you read docs. As for dynamic typing, it isn't that hard if you write unit tests or procedural code often. C is mostly procedural, so I'm sure you'll warm up fast
 
2:32 AM
@ArlieStephens You could use the ctypes library, but python has a very rich ecosystem of structures and classes that can overload operators. Even the array[index] operation :) With most projects, pure python is fine because you won't need realtime rendering. Even then, python's becoming feasible for smaller 3D games
 
and if you do need rendering, there's always interfaces like pyglet for 3d, or pygame for SDL
both rather capable
@Aaron3468 Why did you get uncallable NoneType? It should've been an attribute error without .do()
 
@WayneWerner That's what I didn't understand. obj was part of BeautifulSoup 3, so I'd imagine it was catching AttributeErrors or has do = None somewhere in the class.
 
ahhhh
You using Python 2 or 3?
 
Python 2
 
at least with 3 it gives exceedingly helpful stacktraces (i.e. you'd get the underlying attribute error)
 
2:44 AM
Yeah, it might be time for me to jump into 3
The only time I've really hit a wall with python was when I made an emulator. Between my inexperience and python's performance overhead, I managed to make the emulated machine run at only 40% speed on a computer 2000x more powerful than it ^^; But it was a fun project.
 
lol. Nice
I was actually going to write an assembly emulator in Python, complete with visible registers and program counter
well, very basic one
 
How is it so far?
 
3:00 AM
the handout that our instructor gave us had the variety of commands, e.g. MOV, ADD, etc.
That's about as far as I've got ;) :( :P
I only graduated 5 years ago... -_-
 
Haha, nice. The cool thing is, assembly doesn't have a specified speed of operation, so it's really just getting it to interpret and display output that matters :D
 
Indeed. It actually would've been fairly easy... I don't think the assembly sheet that he gave us even had JMP instructions. Maybe it did.
it's been a while since I've even seen that :P
Mainly I thought it would be helpful for other students who didn't grok program counters as well as I did, heh
 
Even then, JMP instructions are just if _: stack_pointer = address
 
Yeah, so that really wouldn't even have been that complicated
 
Interpreters aren't challenging. The bigger challenge is somewhat like taking the fact that you're an engineer and figuring out the design of jet engines by building your own.
As a programmer, all the individual parts are easy to make, but figuring out how to put them together can be a challenge
And sometimes it turns out the parts you used can't stand the heat ^^;
 
3:07 AM
@Aaron3468 did I link this to you? Right after you mentioned making a gameboy emulator I found this: bitbucket.org/pypy/lang-gameboy/src/…
Support for gameboy in pypy
 
Oh, that's wild
I'm actually working through ruslanspivak.com/lsbasi-part1
and by working through I mean about 3 months ago I went through the first couple of parts, and then got sucked into other projects :(
 
here's a really good set of articles on a gameboy emulator written in javascript: imrannazar.com/GameBoy-Emulation-in-JavaScript:-The-CPU
I was interested in writing one with Python for a while, but could never find a good enough specification of the different parts.
 
I'm still interested in writing a Python interpreter in Javascript, similar to Brython
but Brython makes some... what I would call Javascript-ish opinionated choices
 
@davidism cool, I'm taking a look at it right now trying to figure out which part of the code to run first. gameboy_implementation is promising so far
 
yeah unfortunately there's zero documentation
 
3:13 AM
I noticed that. I was going to ask "what is this?" but you beat me to the punch by explaining it first ;)
 
I didn't actually try to get it running, but I figure that if PyPy advertises it on their about page it must at least work.
 
@davidism Gameboy specifications are floating around all over the place, but there's really only two good documents and a handful of reference sheets for opcodes. The organization in that project isn't bad per se, but it looks like the coder relied heavily on class modules, a la Java. (instead of organizing modules by responsibilities)
 
@davidism Nice, looks like it runs at full speed, and now I know how to invoke it :)
 
And now we know how bash runs on Windows 8
(i.e. just translating syscalls to NT kernel... whatever they are)
 
3:43 AM
Blegh, I don't want to install pip in a virtual environment so pypy can import py. And I can't run it in python because it relies on pypy libs. T.T Oh well
@davidism If you ever do, pandocs is the most complete documentation I've found, and pastraiser has a convenient chart.
 
4:37 AM
I nominated a duplicate but the one I found on sopython isn't very detailed or informative -- am I overlooking something, or should that be improved?
 
That seems pretty detailed. Of course, it doesn't outright say "assignment doesn't copy".
I'm just closing it, there are a couple answers further down that mention that assignment isn't copying.
If you can find a better target though feel free to add it to the canon.
@tripleee wait, are you referring to the canonical post or the canon page not being detailed enough?
 
mainly, the canon page not being what I hoped to find
looking at the newbie's question (link above) it's probably not obvious to him/her/it how this relates
so a question about "how do I copy lists" is not immediately the obvious answer to "why did my list change (I thought it was a deep copy)?"
 
The canon pages aren't really meant for outside consumption. Some people like to make them more detailed than others. It's mainly to facilitate us searching for and finding them.
Although I agree that one could be improved.
 
yeah, so my question is really, should the canon be updated with more links; ISTR there are other very good question/answer combos for this particular use case
but could not quickly find any, and was a bit surprised
 
preferably, there is one canonical post
the only special case I can think of off the top of my head is we have three targets for "a = b or c or d" problems, depending on the form of mistake the user made.
although we still try to only use one as the target
 
4:49 AM
yeah, but the canon pages allow for multiple question links, presumably for questions which explain things on different levels, or from different angles
quick search now brings up stackoverflow.com/questions/6793872/… which is succinct enough
(favorite search phrases -- "python list problem")
 
that one looks like it plagiarized images from Ned's python naming article
anyway, I can't remember exactly why I allowed multiple targets
probably for canon pages that were under discussion, with the intent that we decide on one of them
 
maybe review the canons I un-drafted recently, then; several questions on at least a couple of them
 
huh, guess the images are different nedbatchelder.com/text/names.html
@tripleee I really need to set up some sort of notification system so we see the changes, I didn't even realize you added any
 
discussed with poke here a week ago or so, I think ...
 
it's fine, there's really no rules about the canon right now, so don't worry about it
thanks for adding to it :-)
 
4:54 AM
Apr 3 at 11:44, by tripleee
can I uncheck the draft on that one too?
sorry for the one-box, actually a bit into the discussion
sopython.com/canon/99/nonetype-object-has-no-attribute-whatever just has a single answer which is clearly intended as a canonical; I was surprised it was not linked already, so that was a quick job
sopython.com/canon/98 has four questions, but I think they are all pertinent -- there are multiple aspects of this problem
looking back, sopython.com/canon/88/… might need some tweaking
 
Hmm, maybe a "canonical question" link and then multiple "see also" links would make it more clear.
Because I think for all of those we could definitely pick one of the questions as the standard target.
I really need to start developing sopython-site again.
 
Well, one of my side projects is all but finished. Now I can get random anime recommendations from an ugly website in an slightly less ugly windows GUI. BeautifulSoup is one hell of a library, and requests is a breeze of fresh air.
 
5:13 AM
@Aaron3468 Neat, is it up somewhere?
 
@davidism No, not really. The GUI needs a few more widgets. I've got the model and controller finished, but the view is one window that shows the anime's picture, and then a console outputs all the text info. I'll be putting it all into the window next. And then I need to relearn how to upload to github
Here you go: main module, object module. It's Python 2, you'll need PySide and BeautifulSoup installed through pip
For now it just picks 3 random anime from a season, shows their preview image, and opens the website, but behind the scenes it loads everything except genre tags and rating, so the GUI is the only thing left to touch up
xkcd just released a new comic. It reminds me of how non-programmers use spreadsheets as an IDE.
Every time you use a spreadsheet when you need code, Donald Knuth sheds a tear
 
5:36 AM
I turned someone's spreadsheet into a four year project. That's how I learned Flask, actually.
 
A four year project?
 
Yeah, someone was using a spreadsheet to keep track of the security audit readiness of the SPAWAR network. I wrote something way better. :-)
Unfortunately, I don't think we ever got it up on forge.mil, even though it's open source, so I can't show it.
 
5:56 AM
The issue with spreadsheets is that insanity is a dependency
I imagine if it took 4 years, you made more than a simple SQL database and webserver?
 
Pulls data from pluggable sources, correlates/aggregates it, presents a ton of metrics that are all filterable on any field, with automatic mass email lists based on different metrics and filters, and a bunch of other tools.
Served with Flask, SQLAlchemy for talking with the database, Celery for the background tasks.
 
Nice! So basically it gets rid of the job opening Spreadsheet Technician and instead just requires a week or so to teach them how to contact an admin/find information, and a month to teach the admin to upgrade the system/add users to the email list
 
It's actually targeted at the admins, so they go there instead of learning how to check 5 different systems, and can see exactly why they will fail.
But yeah, by the end they had actually started improving their numbers.
 
Sounds like a pretty awesome system. I love how good programs have measurable benefits :)
 
6:54 AM
Github is so beautiful! I'd been afraid to use it because Eclipse had such buggy support, but the desktop app makes it easy
And I'm sure the shell would be simple too. I don't know how Eclipse managed to break it
 
7:06 AM
cbg
 
7:21 AM
cbg
 
cbg
@Aaron3468 nothing beautiful about github.
Git OTOH...
 
7:40 AM
cbg
 
Cabbage!
 
8:06 AM
cbg!
I am trying to implement an audio sending and receiving in kivy using twisted
But this hangs my kivy's event loop completely.
 
8:32 AM
Whoever posted that Gamasutra on X-Wing vs TIE Fighter networking - I finally finished it! Really interesting.
 
9:24 AM
cbg
 
9:46 AM
35k.
so maximum number of delete votes per day.
nothing to achieve.
(besides legendary)
 
10:32 AM
Hey guys, is it possible to make a Python program/script realtime, especially when data is being acquired from a serial port?
I'm talking with reference to a problem I've been having. The problem is described here:
0
Q: PySerial skips/loses data on serial acquisition

The Quantum PhysicistI have a data acquisition system that produces ASCII data. The data is acquired over USB with serial communication protocol (virtual serial, as the manufacturer of the box claims). I have a Python program/script that uses PySerial with a PySide GUI that plots the acquired data and saves it to HDF...

 
shoud send with delimiters like formatted data?
<data> whatevere you like </data>
 
@MarkoMackic Talking to me?
 
yeah
 
Well, I have a device and I have to deal with it... unfortunately the guy who made it is an amateur... so no checksums... nothing... just text
Is it impossible to guarantee smooth data transfer?
 
user559633
@TheQuantumPhysicist do you know how many bytes at a time or how often the 'eltima data logger' polls?
 
10:37 AM
I'm gonna talk to him and suggest using XML with checksums... but in the mean time I have to deal with what I have
 
What’s the transfer protocol?
 
Actually I know from my program... it's mostly 16384 mostly and then less than that. It's because my acquisition program has two modes, line by line (I call paranoid mode), or pull everything in buffer and then parse it.
Serial over USB
@poke the protocol details are in the question
0
Q: PySerial skips/loses data on serial acquisition

The Quantum PhysicistI have a data acquisition system that produces ASCII data. The data is acquired over USB with serial communication protocol (virtual serial, as the manufacturer of the box claims). I have a Python program/script that uses PySerial with a PySide GUI that plots the acquired data and saves it to HDF...

 
hm..
 
user559633
Are you sure that the data is separated by newlines?
 
Yes; absolutely. The data format is very well defined.
And the funny part is that skipping data involves skipping newlines too, some times!!
 
user559633
10:41 AM
When you read in data, are you buffering it somewhere or are you just expecting all of it to be read based on the time for your baud rate
 
No, I'm buffering it. I have an infinite loop, it polls for data, and pushes it to an array. In fact I can't analyze the data until a whole "batch" has arrived. A batch contains header information + data points in table form. So I have to get the whole batch and then analyze it
In the question there are little example on how I'm doing the polling and pushing
 
user559633
And you mentioned that anything that potentially slows down the python process will reproduce the data corruption?
 
Yep
Exactly!
 
user559633
If you lower the baud rate, does the pain stop?
 
At least I was able to reproduce the problem that way.
I can't do that. It's fixed by the device.
There's really a question that bugs me: Is it impossible to have guaranteed stable communication with serial? I mean with TCP/IP, it's guaranteed that no data is lost. Is it the same with serial?
 
user559633
10:47 AM
if it's not baked into the protocol/algorithm being used by the streamer, not as far as i know. if it's streaming and the receiver is too slow to process the data within that interval, that data is gone
 
So this means that any reliable serial communication must be bidirectional with checksums, right?
It's like trying to make UDP reliable... if I understand correctly
 
user559633
checksum would be an implementation detail and for varying definitions of reliable, sure
 
Well, anything that checks that the data integrity didn't get messed during the transfer
 
user559633
i woke up within the past 15 minutes though, so you should probably sanity check what i'm suggesting
 
Because if this is the case, this means it's impossible for me to do anything to fix this, and the manufacturer should make the protocol more reliable by including something like a checksum
Actually best ideas come up when people wake up ^_^
Guys, I'll go to lunch with my group now. Please, please! If you have any idea that could help, please say it. I'm quite desperate with this problem and my collaboration is going crazy. We have a meeting today at 17:00 UTC, so I'm gonna tell them what I learned. Thank you so much!
 
10:57 AM
Checksums will not really make you receive the data more properly, but just tell when the data was incomplete. If that incomplete data problem is somewhat consistent, you should try to solve that somehow, otherwise you will end up requesting the same full data over and over just to consistently see it fail. You could possibly avoid this by implementing some packaged protocol where each package is well smaller so re-requesting individual packages does not hurt (see: TCP).
 
user559633
What's the data source (if you don't mind me asking)? I have an hour before work and if it's something I have kicking around, I can try to reproduce
 
11:15 AM
I should just facepalm and move on on some of these BeautifulSoup questions. If I don't I end up wanting to use loads of bold in my answers.
I managed to restrain myself and only use bold twice in my last answer...
 
user559633
just remove all scrape + beautiful soup questions and ban the askers, repeatedly
 
I second that notion
and cbg people
 
user559633
cbg :)
 
@PM2Ring that kind of "newline separated JSON records" file structure is actually quite nice
 
morning
 
11:24 AM
I use newline separated JSON for some logging I do.
 
user559633
Same. Amazon cloudwatch asks for line delineated json records. Super wasteful
 
@MartijnPieters do you have a decisive opinion on [mutability] vs [immutability]? I'm also asking because I'm told that if they should be merged, then sooner or later we'll need a mod:P
 
Not the worst for human readability if you keep the keys in order and the keys with consistent width (say statusCode and verb for HTTP) at the beginning with the variable width (body) at the end.
I usually then read each line using Logstash and send into elastic.
 
Also nice for not having to write or find an iterative JSON parser, when reading records from a file and possibly not wanting to read them all
 
@AndrasDeak gut reaction: immutability is the usually exception.
It is in Python.
So I'd stick with immutablity, merge mutability into it. With only 86 posts, that's easily done by the community.
 
11:27 AM
But as tags, they don't convey any extra meaning with respect to each other, right?
because some are even questioning whether they are the same at all
@MartijnPieters do you mean setting mutability as a synonym of immutability?
I was told that "merging" tags needs mods
(whatever that means)
 
@tristan The source of the data is a data acquisition system. It records analog voltages and puts GPS time stamps on them.
 
user559633
@TheQuantumPhysicist Ah, unfortunately I don't have one of those in the apartment. I was hoping it was arduino, rasppi, or some kind of computer equipment (e.g. a router with a serial port or UPS)
 
@poke The problem doesn't happen that often.
@tristan It's a very special device that one of our collaboration members made...
@tristan But this problem should be independent of the device sending the data, right?
It only depends on the protocols used to receive the data
The device just blindly streams text data
 
@AndrasDeak merging means all posts with old tags get auto-moved to the new tag.
 
ooooh, while synonyms only affect subsequent questions
thanks, I get it
Ah, and by "by the community" you mean "retag those posts by hand"
OK, it's clear now, thank you:)
 
user559633
11:39 AM
@TheQuantumPhysicist that seems accurate. i was just going to play around and see if i could offload the buffer to c or something
 
@tristan It would be great if you could reproduce this! That would be evidence that uni-directional serial communication can never be considered reliable.
By the way, the amount of data the device sends is 4 channels @ 1 kHz 16 bit data in ASCII format with some header (about 30 lines of header information)
 
user559633
@TheQuantumPhysicist well, i mean that's like proving water is wet
 
@tristan So you're saying that's a given?
@tristan I mean uni-directional serial is unreliable... that's a given?
 
user559633
serial/stream data can be lossy if the receiver is provided more data than it can process or store in an interval
 
That depends on the system, right? I mean slower systems can lose more data
 
user559633
11:46 AM
it's more likely to be
 
Because it works most of the time well... but suddenly fails... maybe because the computer has some extra load at that moment
 
user559633
you can do unidirectional and have it be reliable, but you would need some other way of saying "the receiver didn't get the data it needed"
 
Without knowing the first thing about communication protocols: is it not an option to locally store the input on the fly, and then gradually parse it?
or is that the "buffering" thing you have mentioned?
 
@Ilja I guess it could be handy. But I suspect that a simple JSON validator will barf if it's expecting the file to contain a single JSON object.
 
@AndrasDeak That's what I'm doing, but the problem is not there.
 
11:48 AM
oh
 
@PM2Ring I'm thinking of suggesting XML
that will result in the same thing
 
And what kind of "extra load" are we talking about? CPU or HDD?
 
@AndrasDeak Any kind of load that will get the program to halt while acquiring data
 
@TheQuantumPhysicist We're discussing this question: stackoverflow.com/questions/36596583/…
 
Check the update here, it has an example: stackoverflow.com/questions/36551026/…
 
user559633
11:49 AM
XML would add a lot of weight to it. You just need some ack or retry logic
 
@PM2Ring Sorry! ^_^
@tristan I'm thinking about a simple tag for all the data sent with attributes checksum and size
Not XML everything...
 
Your confusion is understandable, since Ilja's comment to me didn't provide any context. :)
 
We finns are big fans of implied context :D
 
I'd noticed... :)
 
DSM
Morning explicit-is-better-than-implicit cabbage for all.
 
11:54 AM
smooth
morning, @DSM
 
Hey @DSM , do you have some time to talk?
@DSM I heard you're a quant. I'm wanna be one ^_^
 

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