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DSM
8:00 PM
No, Mr Stuhr, I expect you to spell. #whatisthisIdon'teven
 
@davidism you use pythonbrew at all?
 
@corvid no, I use virtualenv
oh, to install other versions
 
I thought about saving this code from a long time ago. Decided it's not worth it, and I shall re-write.
 
no, arch has packages for most versions
 
yeah I use virtualenv when working, but need a version to make the virtualenv from
 
8:02 PM
you can install to the system as long as you remember to make altinstall rather than make install
 
:| Oh, thar be my mistake
that's where everything went so wrong
 
I'm installing Elementary in vbox to see if it really doesn't have py3.4
 
Cbg again. I am full of all the meat.
 
I think the python3 wasn't aliased to it at least
 
@davidism let me know
 
8:04 PM
no, I'll message everyone else though
 
DSM
All the meat!
 
I am considering replacing my Windows with something based off Ubuntu
 
I like elementary OS for the pretty factor. Linux Mint seems to be the most popular but takes some configuration to make it look decent
 
I liked vanilla Ubuntu
Unity looked and felt great
 
I always thought that ubuntu felt a bit clunky and heavy duty, but altogether well made
 
8:08 PM
Well, in parts where they could have done away with certain things completely
 
I noticed recently that I basically never use del. Do you guys use del? To remove elements from a list, perhaps?
 
I use del to remove a key/value from a dict
 
@Kevin I don't really use lists, TBH.
 
Interesting
 
@Kevin Usually, I just let my variables run out of scope.
 
8:09 PM
I honestly believe that in most cases, dictionaries work better.
 
I only use lists for lists
 
@Iplodman That’s an odd statement.
 
@poke Why so?
 
is it possible to get all classes within a module, and save it as some kind of data structure?
 
Aren't dictionaries like maps in Go
 
8:10 PM
Because dictionaries and lists have very different use cases, you cannot really replace one by the other one.
 
You do know that a module is an object
 
Sounds like a distinctly javascripty philosophy. "Let's make everything an associative array!". Not necessarily wrong, but it is surprising.
 
@poke In my experience (which granted, is little compared to some others) dictionaries just make code easier to read.
 
By the way my birthday is on the 25th of November
 
@RonaldMunodawafa I don't know anything about Go, but yeah, maps and dicts are the same thing.
 
8:12 PM
@Iplodman But they have different purposes. What do you do when you need an order?
 
DSM
I think if dictionaries were sorted I could use them where I use lists now. Be awkward otherwise.
 
You can sort a dictionary either by key or by value
 
Unless it's a list, like: kevs_starred_messages = [message for message in kevin.all_messages]
 
Or by ?
 
@poke Then I'd use a list!
> ...believe that in most cases, dictionaries...
 
8:13 PM
hah
 
@RonaldMunodawafa This has come up a lot recently. You can't sort a dictionary, but you can iterate through its keys & values in a sorted order.
Confusing the two concepts makes us cry.
 
/me cries
 
@Kevin Why don't the Python guys/gals just add sorted dictionaries?
 
@Kevin It probably doesn't help that a dictionary is a thing IRL that's sorted.
 
Seems a lot easier.
 
8:14 PM
I will write a module to sort them
Don't worry
After my birthday ofc
 
@Iplodman My wild guess is, "unordered dicts are faster". You can use the OrderedDict data type if you really super need it.
 
In C# world you can sort a dictionary but it is not recommended
 
@Kevin I've used that on occasion. How awful (I'm assuming it would be) would it be to add a new data type?
 
@Iplodman Efficiency reasons
 
But why would you need to sort a dictionary now that I am thinking about it
 
8:16 PM
Having never modified the Python source, I'm unqualified to say how awful it would be. But my guess is: not all that hard, actually.
 
@RonaldMunodawafa I used it for something, once.
Maybe client details by date, where you reference them by a UID?
@Kevin I was thinking more on the speed size.
 
@RonaldMunodawafa Example: You have a dictionary that maps student names to their grade. Print each person's name and grade, in alphabetical order.
 
You can iterate in a sorted order
 
45
A: Are there any reasons not to use an ordered dictionary?

Tim PetersOrderedDict is a subclass of dict, and needs more memory to keep track of the order in which keys are added. This isn't trivial. The implementation adds a second dict under the covers, and a doubly-linked list of all the keys (that's the part that remembers the order), and a bunch of weakref pr...

 
@Iplodman Wild guess: take all the complexities and stick an N in front. What once was O(log(N)), will now be O(N*log(N)).
 
8:18 PM
So an ordered dictionary has a higher complexity
 
@Kevin Stop being clever. What does that even mean?
 
Short answer: it takes longer.
 
@MarcusStuhr Read the link guys.
 
I'm inclined to believe anything Tim Peters says, so I'll concede to his "It's not a lot slower" assertion
 
@DSM: I meant something like "Settle down, @Douchebag. It's perfectly reasonable to have the assumption OP had given his conditions.".
 
8:21 PM
The main difference appears to come down to memory (which makes sense, really)
 
DSM
@Noob: umm, what are we talking about?
 
Yes, it must be relatively expensive to save the order things were added.
 
@corvid Elementary OS is based on Ubuntu 12.04 Precise which is almost 3 years old now. So you're going to have a bad time with more than Python 3.4 not being in the repo.
 
ah, well thar be the problem, linux mint has it
 
@DSM The snarky responses...sorry, there's a long delay with chat notifications with the SO app on iPhone .
 
8:23 PM
I strongly expect sorted iteration through a sorted dictionary to be faster than through an unsorted one
 
@corvid you should try out Arch, you can still install whatever desktop environment you want on it
 
@Ronald If the dict is frozen, yes.
 
DSM
@Noob: oh, I see. Well, I'm still not sure that would be a net improvement (unless it results in the mods nuking the whole thing.)
 
Quick question
I am installing Python3.4.2 on my Windows
 
Hmm, I wonder if Python's built in sort has better than average performance on already sorted sequences.
 
8:24 PM
@Kevin sounds like a job for SCIENCE.
 
@Kevin it does
 
I select the Program Files folder for 64 bit stuff
 
timsort is better over already sorted runs
 
@Kevin I think it does -- it uses Timsort under the hood, which takes advantage of already-sorted subsequences (IIRC)
 
But then it keeps going to the the one for 32 bit stuff
This is why I want to leave Windows - I am confused
 
8:25 PM
@Kevin Python sort is very fast on sorted sequences.
 
Hooray!
 
@davidism does't python use something like bogosort or something?
 
That will be the ebst case
 
any non-joke sort is fast on already sorted sequences
@rvraghav93 is that a joke?
 
bogosort is fast
 
8:26 PM
bogosort is slow. Quantum bogosort is fast, but requires a nuclear arsenal.
 
bogosort is intentionally inefficient
 
@MarcusStuhr “It uses Timsort under the hood” makes it sound so random.
 
bogosort is so fast it is immesurable
 
No it is not.
 
8:27 PM
@Ronald again, please stop talking
 
It is a joke
lol
 
@davidism oh no... sorry I confused timsort with that one... remembered that python uses a hybrid sort which sounds wierd... timsort hmm...
 
Although, even quantum bogosort is at most O(N)
Still gotta shuffle the list once.
I'm jealous of Timsort because it's named after its inventor and people still take it seriously.
In comparison, KevinScript is a clown that cries on the inside.
 
lol Kevin
 
Kevin why don't you share KevinScript with us
Unless you are selling it
 
8:29 PM
@davidism Unless you're trying something like insertion sort on a list in reverse order, in which case you get the worst runtime at O(n^2)
 
I already did today :-) It's on my github account.
 
please stop asking "why don't you share it with us" to everyone who mentions something
 
@MarcusStuhr I do that all the time to keep my computer busy during idle times.
@Kevin Also on that list: Linux and Git.
 
cabbage
 
Cabbage @Arden!
 
8:33 PM
@poke Those are at least slightly subtle about it ;-)
 
:D
 
I am thinking how useful a tablet programmable in Python would be where any app can be editted
 
TIM could also be an acronym: This Is Magic-sort
 
or This Is My sort ;)
 
i like it thats my name haha
 
DSM
8:34 PM
Okay, enough fun. Back to correlating school absenteeism with tamiflu distribution.
 
From this I don't see all sorting algos performing better on sorted arrays. They are sometimes the same as avg case complexities... assuming sorted arrays correspond to the best case complexity... Or am I missing something?
 
whatever @DSM
 
@davidism^
 
i'm implementing a model view controller for my gui. i have a framework that builds the gui. the framework requires a self.imgdir to be set. Is there a standard way to control which methods from the controller class i want to be inherited into the framework instances?
 
DSM
@poke: I meant that's what I was up to at the moment, not that other people need to do it. :-)
 
8:37 PM
@rvraghav93 Yeah, I expected quicksort and mergesort to have best cases that are no better than their average cases. They do the same amount of comparisons regardless of starting order. (Uh, I think)
 
There is a problem that needs to be solved
 
@DSM I know but I don't really understand a word of it xD
 
Unlike, say, bubble sort, which is allowed to terminate early if it does a sweep without performing swaps.
 
Like a hole
That needs to be filled
 
@DSM Using any interesting stats software?
 
8:39 PM
We need to remove the need to code
I think MergeSort, QuickSort and ShellSort are cool esp MergeSort
 
But if we don't need code, then who will pay me to think and read and type and stuff?
I'll have to toil in the dirt fields :-(
 
Invent KevinLands ;)
 
DSM
@Marcus: most of what I need to do I can do using pandas+statsmodels. I'm of the belief that in 95%+ of cases, if it takes ultraclever statistics to dig out signal from the data it's not going to be robust enough to believe anyway.
 
Like business people should not be coding
 
user559633
what's up nerdlords
 
8:41 PM
Thing about real estate is, they're not making any more of it. (except for the scorching lava fields of Hawaii, but no one wants to live there)
 
Heya @tristan!
 
They should be doing what they do well
Business
 
user559633
hi
 
DSM
@Kevin: do I sense an opportunity? Maybe the time for floating cities has come.
Cabbage, tristan.
 
user559633
cbg
 
user559633
8:42 PM
i forgot how delicate the egos are in IRC
 
Too many people are coding if they say need an online store
 
DSM
Huh. I always think of IRC as a cruel free-for-all, where no form of insult is too personal to be spoken.
 
user559633
i like online stores
 
Online stores could be generated
I know a lady who decided to learn HTML because she wanted an online store
 
@DSM I'm down for that. Let's colonize a planet with a dense atmosphere, so we can make naturally bouyant dome cities.
 
user559633
8:44 PM
hah, @DSM i just got told to f-off because I suggested someone use a virtualenv for python code (asker was having trouble because he doesn't know how paths work, even though he's sure he does)
 
user559633
dense atmosphere? sounds like you're looking for a PHP conference instantrimshot.com
 
Not me personally, though, as I have an irrational fear of gas giants. Falling forever through the chaotic smog, until you are burned or crushed or melted.
 
user559633
i kid, i kid, i'm here all week. try the fish
 
user559633
so no middle management at Exxon for Kevin?
 
DSM
@Kevin: can we compromise on an ice giant? My master's was about Neptune, so I'm partial to it.
 
user559633
8:46 PM
You're a pretty good programmer for being technically trained in Roman Mythology @DSM
 
Did you know Jupiter's diameter is ten times larger than Earth's? It could just gobble us up. Plip! under the surface we go, with not even a splash.
 
DSM
What can I say? Code emerges from my mind like Minerva from the head of Jupiter.
 
user559633
Bro-man MythBro-logy
 
(In reality, I recognize that Jupiter is actually a friend of Earth, as its high gravitational pull yanks comets away from the inner solar system, preventing collisions with our planet. But I called it an irrational fear for a reason)
 
user559633
Isn't Jupiter a gas giant?
 
user559633
8:48 PM
Meaning there is and isn't a surface? (and also never a splash?)
 
It's the biggest gas giant in the solar system. The jury is out on whether it has a solid core, but if it does, it's deep down.
 
user559633
why don't we just go check
 
DSM
For reasons it would be too boring to relate, there's a certain song in Japanese which I always associate with a foxlike alien falling into a giant planet's atmosphere.
@Kevin: I'd wager good money the Jovian core is between 8 and 20 Earth masses.
 
Because the pressure at the hypothetical surface would squish us into pancakes.
 
user559633
8:49 PM
well, that's very...specific
 
user559633
jovial core you say?!
 
I wager 500 quatloos on "less than 8 Earth masses"
 
DSM
How do I claim my winnings? .. and what can I do with quatloos?
 
user559633
whoa, whoa. we don't say "quatloo" anymore, we just say "mixed race"
 
First, we have to find out who is right. This may require waiting for humanity to progress to a stage 5 civilization, so it has the ability to deconstruct planets as raw materials for super engineering projects, such as Dyson spheres.
(or whatever number stage it actually is, I don't care)
Then, you can use your quatloos to make further bets. They have no other use, as we will both be brains in jars.
 
DSM
8:52 PM
We just need to leave a message somewhere permanent, so that stage 6 can send the answer back in time. Something combining steganography and github should work.
 
Hmm, are there any convenient black holes around, say, five thousand light years from here? We could beam the information towards it, then have it perform a U-turn just above the edge of the event horizon, and come back to us in 12014.
 
@tristan Oops, my bad. I'm using terminology from 1960's idea of the future, so they're a little old fashioned :-)
 
user559633
yeah, that one was reaching
 
user559633
thanks for meeting me more than half-way
 
user559633
8:57 PM
i wrote something in tkinter yesterday and i'm happy to report that tkinter is still hell in python3
 
DSM
Kevin, aren't you a pinball Tkinter wizard?
 
Yes, so I feel qualified to confirm that Tkinter is terrible in many ways.
Multifaceted and crappy, like a brown diamond.
 
user559633
It still gets fussy about images that weren't made in microsoft paint in 1997, its (widget) config dictionaries are still unpythonic and messy, it still gets confused about what "full screen" means, widgets still draw beyond their bounds (see a button widget on a black background)
 
(Pedant update: no one cares, but when I said "stage five" I meant type II )
@tristan Yep, it all checks out
 
user559633
I'm going to just end up using PyQT.
 
user559633
9:02 PM
Anyway, my project is almost done -- menu interface on top of old video game emulators so you can turn a raspberry pi into a clean video game console after setting it to boot my program on startup
 
Which emulators are you running?
 
ZSNES
 
Nice. A friend of mine has some kind of multi-emulator box set up in his living room, but its interface is total butt.
 
user559633
it's pluggable, but i tested it with snes9x
 
DSM
As I say every few weeks: seaborn style > matplotlib style
 
user559633
9:04 PM
yeah, i'll open source it soon. when you press a button it (the program) doesn't know, it guides you through creating a conf so you can use a controller to scroll up/down/select/cancel
 
Reminds me of a guy on Something Awful who was writing an NES emulator for the BeagleBone. It was technically impressive, but I don't think I'd want to actually play on one. Those corners look sharp.
 
user559633
Jeez, I'm not writing an emulator, just a dashboard that acts as a runner to/between emulator backends
 
user559633
My thing isn't at all impressive
 
Yeah, my "that reminds me of" lobe tends to make tenuous connections like that.
"You are listening to a development and emulator story. You might also like:..."
 
user559633
Hah, it's totally cool, I just didn't want anyone to think that I'm smart
 
9:09 PM
You're like the fourth person in here today that has denied their smartness.
Each time I think of that saying, "what do the wise man and the fool have in common? They both think the wise man is a fool"
Reverse Dunning-Kruger, yo.
 
hi guys
 
Greetings
 
user559633
cbg
 
Is there any difference between "Reverse Dunning-Kruger" and "Impostor SYndrome"?
 
user559633
Impostors feel as if they've made it to some coveted or respected position or ability?
 
DSM
9:22 PM
Let's not talk about the issue of not feeling qualified to be in the position one finds himself in. It's.. uncomfortable..
 
@holdenweb Not the way I use them, no
I just wanted to make the DK name drop because I knew someone would eventually.
 
But since sufferers of Impostor Syndrome decry the justice of their position, wouldn't that just be another case of the competent failing to recognize their competence (i.e. Reverse Dunning-Kruger, albeit a specialized subset of it)?
DSM: Sorry
 
DSM
Wow, I just found out we're hiring a new developer! More people to interview. (This time it's C#-heavy.)
 
9:42 PM
having a small problem with a recursive method...
 
user559633
just one or a lot of small problems?
 
@corvid Have you solved it by solving it already?
 
user559633
9:58 PM
oh nooo @corvid is single threaded and in the attempt to describe his problem, he has gone until an infinite loop until he dies
 
I found a hack around, but can't find out the root of it
 
Anyone here have experience with JS/HTML?
 
@Soviero Why are you in a python chat room asking about JS/HTML?
 
@OMGtechy Because I hang out in here all the time...
 
Ah sorry :)
That sounded harsher than it was meant to
 
10:03 PM
@Soviero Ask away
@corvid Quick, call return to end the recursiveness!
 
DSM
Chat, like email, is a very flat medium. Without smileys everywhere, everything sounds mean if you look at it the right way.. (or wrong way, as the case may be.)
 
@poke I have a the following code at the footer of my bottle application, and while the function itself seems to work when forced from the console, but the setInterval doesn't seem to apply.
 
@DSM Yes :) :D :O
 
setInterval(update_login_time(), 300000); will call update_login_time once and then try to call its return value every 300 seconds.
 
10:08 PM
@poke Son of a b****, you're right! I always forget to leave off the parentheses for that. Which if funny, because Python has the same rule.
 
yeah :)
 
10:21 PM
Question: do you folks use an IDE to develop in Python? The folks at my work love PyCharm, but I find it annoying and much prefer nano or notepad++.
 
I don’t use one. But if I were to use one, I’d use Visual Studio.
 
DSM
I only use editors written in lisp.
 
@poke how come?
 
How come what? :D
 
VS for python? I've heard terrible things but never used it myself
 
Yeah, I know of it, but just heard bad things
 
I didn’t try it much, but the time I did, it was pretty good.
 
Hmm, maybe I should take a look sometime
 
@OMGtechy PyDev is my favorite Python IDE! I couldn't live without it for large projects. For small projects I use Geany, but it's not as nice.
 
Such IDE, so develop
 
10:33 PM
no doge memes
 
@OMGtechy I find Wing IDE a very usable solution and have used it on Windows platforms (though some time ago). I have PyCharm loaded, but it's always seemed too complex and feature-rich to "fit my brain". Qualification: I did start to use Wing a long time before PyCharm came along.
 
I guess it depends on the scale of the project. I've got mixed C++, C and Python. I find that notepad++ (whilst on Windows) is more than enough for all of it.
 
@davidism very sad.
 
@poke very respond
 
it's ok poke, things will get such better
 
10:35 PM
xD
 
so amaze
 
A wild Jon appeared!
It uses “bark”
 
woof!?
 
Rabbit is frightened. It’s super effective.
 
10:37 PM
everyone wants to reach into their pockets and give the cute yellow puppy a biscuit don't they? You know you do...
 
 
awwww........
 
relevant song title
 
@OMGtechy runs away
 
10:40 PM
anyway - any particular reason my appearance is scary?
 
You’re a dog?
A yellow one even
 
but a cute one - fail to see how that's scary... the scary one is my evil twin @thefourtheye
 
You used “bark”
 
no - you're mistaken, I said "woof"
 
@OMGtechy That killer rabbit will give me nightmares
 
10:43 PM
Not in my story :(
 
I fear we may require the "Holy Hand Grenade" to dispose of that rabbit...
@poke you leading the RABBIT project?
phone - brb
 
11:02 PM
cbg
19 bounce backs from a 10k email send - that's a fairly good ratio... pleased with that
 
@JonClements yes
 
I'm pleased to hear that... trying to find you a few resources that might be useful I have book marked
arhghghg cabbage, please tell me I did bookmark them
going through history now
 
11:17 PM
@Unihedron you about?
 
Is concurrency really execution at the same time like what is being said in this answer's stackoverflow.com/a/748235/3998051 comment as a reply to Muhammad. Is that not parallelism? And is concurrency not splitting to individual executable tasks like what Rob Pike says here youtube.com/watch?v=cN_DpYBzKso
 
concurrent, parallel, and asynchronous all mean the same thing
 
Rob Pike says parallelism is an effect of of concurrency which does not exist if there is only one process available. I am still to read on asynchronous patterns
 
@davidism they're the "almost" the same principle, but they're not the same "thing"
 
In the video he gives the illustration of Gophers as processors to show the difference between the two
 
11:24 PM
anyway, stepping out of this discussion for a bit...
 
If you want to be pedantic, yes, you can assign different meanings to all of them, but in practice who cares? Either you're doing multiple things at once or you aren't, doesn't matter what you call it.
 
I am watching a presentation on Tulip by BDFL at LinkedIn on YouTube where he discusses this as well. It is important to know the difference because concurrency does not mean "multiple things at once" but rather "multiple things individually" and concurrency, according to Rob Pike and BDFL, is a more efficient pattern than parallelism. Anyway, later
 
Who summoned me here?
Oh hi @JonClements
 
@davidism Well, there is a difference in practice.
In theory, it’s all about parallel execution.
 
11:39 PM
hmm, I don't think I've ever thought to myself "I'll do this concurrently rather than in parallel"
 
I’m just saying that there are many different ways to have parallel or concurrent execution; and in practice those differences count. Also, “asynchronous” is generally at a much higher abstraction layer than “concurrent”, and involves different components.
 
@Unihedron hi... you know that thing about the chat bot you're writing?
 
Oh?
 
@Unihedron and you were kind enough to thank me for the info. you had off me for the event numbers?
 
Yeah, they were really helpful. Thanks!
 
11:47 PM
I recall seeing in some room you'd experimented with the kick/ban and other event stuff?
are you willing to share that discovery?
 
Yeah, I wrote most of it down, but it happened across Meta.
 
was it in the meta sandbox ?
 
@Jon Sounds like you weren’t successful with your bookmark search? xD
 
@poke I remembered a name at least :)
 
:)
 
11:51 PM
A sandbox room..

 Room for Uni and Sam

... and whoever that comes across this room. Nothing much real...
 
anyway... give me a break, I work 14 hour days at least
 
Aww.
 
cbg all!
@JonClements: dude! that's almost as much as I work. Go easy on yourself
 
@poke @Unihedron maybe you two should coop to some extent... as we're both writing chat bots - just from different perspectives
 
I'll have to head to school, I'll summarize what I know to you and @poke later. Have a good day!
 
11:53 PM
perhaps @poke, you could fill in @Unihedron our approach?
 
I’ll read through that room’s log tomorrow, see what was going on there, compare with what I have, and then we’ll see :)
 
hey! anyone wanna explain __slots__ to me?
 
Ok! TIA
 
As far as I remember, I was pretty far with chat interaction. Most of the stuff that’s missing is the interaction related stuff.
@Unihedron Thank you too :) See you later!
 
@inspectorG4dget it restricts the __dict__
 
11:55 PM
@inspectorG4dget I take it you have searched for it yet? :P
 
yeah, that's where I'm a huge dumb@$$. I need to go into why __dict__ exists, and why it needs to be restricted
@poke: that link helps. /me runs off to read
 
n00bs :p
 
__slots__ restricts the attributes to what's declared there, rather than allowing dynamic attributes
 
welp! I /am/ a professional student. Translation: I'm a lifelong n00b
 
it saves space if you're going to create a ton of instances of a class
 
11:57 PM
@inspectorG4dget tl;dr on that: Since objects are dynamic (as in you can add and remove properties at any time), they need to be stored somewhere. The place where they are stored is __dict__ which is more or less a normal dictionary. Now, if you use slots, you tell the type during its definition that there are only some specific properties. This will cause __dict__ not to exist, so the type will not be dynamic but have just that fixed set of properties.
 
in a way that can be abused by control freaks and static typing weenies <- lol
 
(now that explanation turned out longer than expected too…)
 
@poke: that's what I'm getting out of the accepted answer - thanks. This is turning out to be quite interesting. I wish I'd learned about this sooner
 
I never had to use a type with slots myself though.
And with Python 3, it’s also no longer really necessary.
 
why is it unnecessary with py3?
 

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