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3:00 AM
Okay, translate that into "if you weren't here, what would probably happen is that I would encourage Shixin to link R3-View in such a way that it used the Ren-C code" - "you are here, so if you want to change it, it will involve active work on your part, besides this discussion"
 
API maintenance is a pain, breaking external customers is what tons of people do.
I just want to add the perspective, so that we (or in this case it's maybe just you) are aware of this as well.
 
"this discussion alone is insufficient to change my advice"
 
This eternal breakage of external customers is much of what causes so much ridicule and hatred in our industry. Constant churn.
I'd advise towards, longer-term, providing a subset of interfaces for which additional stability guarantees are provided.
 
(That is not C++ based)
I feel that C++ is the answer to this kind of question precisely because the tools for abstraction within the language permit lots of bending and maintaining of invariants.
Well, y'know, Haskell or whatever is the answer, but I mean for the specifics here.
 
C++ is good and fine and great and most likely it really is the answer, then it's applicable. It's just not very embeddable. So very little, that I'm inclined to say "not at all".
So it's a perfect answer when you want to build things on top of Rebol with C++ anyway. For everything else, the hassles of interacting with C++ are close to insurmountable.
(Sorry for the break, internet flakier than I thought.)
 
3:15 AM
Sounds like C++ FUD. C++ is plenty embeddable.
 
Just not via an FFI.
If you have a C++ compiler, sure, it's "embeddable".
 
But who is this client then, with no GCC who is calling Rebol via an FFI?
 
Currently, it's the Rebol host, for example.
 
How many such clients are there who need to speak with Rebol who wouldn't use messaging over text blobs?
I'm not that worried about the needs of a CLI and the rate of change of Ren-C's internal APIs, and if I were I'd not be that worried about building it with C++.
As for R3-View, Ren-C++ is not stable enough yet for production purposes
 
Well, we know as a fact, that you are not worried about building things in C++ :)
 
3:19 AM
(Arguments about whether Rebol / Ren-C / etc. is in the first place put aside)
I guess the thing is that I do think the best future-forward is to let go of RXIARG for now, make RL_API speak REBVAL and REBSER, and think about what to do in this long now scenario when this isn't working out.
 
And maybe add a few well-selected additional RL_ functions to the mix, with additional stability guarantees, for working with the REBVALs and REBSERs.
Right. Violent agreement.
 
Okay, well that's what we were thinking.
 
Drive experience with that to further increase the RL_ surface, strategically. Or use that experience to replace it with something better altogether.
And stay sensitive and keep open ears about customers using that interface and expressing pain points.
Plan.
 
Well, let's consider VAL_TYPE then. Can R3-View invoke that macro or does it call RL_Val_Type?
 
Preferrably the latter.
For starters, maybe the former, to help inform an empiric collection of what may be sensible to wrap one step away from the internals.
So, in the good deeds department: tests merged up and remaining tabs and trailing whitespace cleaned from the test stuff.
 
3:29 AM
Well, REBVAL and REBSER are either opaque or not. If they're opaque then the accesses need to be done with functions. I do not have a good understanding of how many functions are actually necessary--only what's in the reb-xxx.h headers.
@earl "Whenever you do a good deed, be sure to get a receipt, in case Heaven is like the IRS." :-)
@earl Since you are the one in charge of GitHub Rebol (at least for now) I don't know what your policy is on things like the map bug or how that factors into things in terms of when to patch the downloads from rebolsource etc.
 
@HostileFork Leaving the question of who's in charge of what aside, we know that I have access to Github Rebol. I don't know what the policy is either. I don't (yet?) have a policy.
If someone wants to backport such fixes to mainline and/or rebolsource, I'd be certainly willing to merge into rebolsource, generally speaking.
 
I don't know of any particularly good reason not to collapse rebolsource into Rebol, and tag the branch as last updated by Carl R3-Alpha-Mar-3-2014 or something...then make what is now rebolsource master, and sync that to the rebolsource downloads.
 
Noted. Would that help with anything?
Maybe the 64-bit builds out of the box help somebody, dunno.
 
Not having to send mentioned PRs to two places, being less confusing, letting you only have to worry about one place.
 
Ok.
 
3:39 AM
Having the rebolsource downloads be up-to-date with bugfixes, having github Rebol/Rebol look a bit more alive.
 
In the past, sending them just to mainline worked perfectly fine; they can be easily taken from there.
 
Mentioning in the README that for now Rebol/Rebol is conservatively maintaining something not too far from the open sourced release but that Ren-C exists
 
Ok, understood. I'll think about it.
3 days after the open sourcing anniversary, maybe that would be a nice sign of life to some people.
 
Eventually people stop looking for signs of life, so who knows. But I think the changes you have been maintaining are quite conservative and there's no reason to have to deal with them two places. And Ren-C still needs an R3-Alpha-like-thing as a bootstrap baseline. So it's justified to have it.
 
Extremely conservative :)
But one question to think about is how to move forward with that.
Extremely conservative baseline along with progressive, rapid-moving experimental platform is still a constellation worth thinking about. So point taken (I think).
PR incoming. Should be trivial, but nevertheless sent as a PR because of "day 1" and things, you know. So I'd appreciate a quick look over, sanity checking if I haven't totally misunderstood something.
 
3:51 AM
@earl Yup, looks good. The path processing and dispatch is still one of those "things I haven't really gone over yet", so it's more murky than it should be.
 
Speaking of map, I think I still have a very basic reshuffling of t-map.c lying around somewhere.
Because when I looked into it once, I found the function names rather unfortunately chosen, and the separation of concern between functions a bit murky.
I guess that'd be right up Ren-C's alley?
 
Yep, if you have changes do go ahead. I've tried to avoid a lot of that as long as I could, but get involved now and again when there's a bug and then sometimes clean as I go.
 
Will see if I can quickly throw that over the whitespace hurdle.
 
Uncategorized on Rebol3 Porting Guide ("Ren-C" branch)
# R3-Alpha >> exclude quote (a b c d e) 'd/e/f/d/e ** Script error: exclude does not allow paren! for its set1 argument >> intersect <abcde> "defde" ** Script erro...
✍ 1 comment
 
Not really worth talking about, wouldn't take you more than 15 minutes to do.
And not to your standards of commenting, just some simple reshuffling.
Still, I think still lying around somewhere.
Absolutely fabulous that you keep this Trello going, by the way.
 
3:55 AM
Try to
 
That's the professionalism I'm talking about. Making changes and documenting them, perfect.
Absolutely invaluable.
 
Interesting reversal on <infix> and going to OP! being a different type, based on interfaces.
 
@HostileFork Ah, right, infix!
@HostileFork Is that done yet?
 
The reversal? No. Won't be hard, just haven't gotten to it
 
Ok, cool. Maybe that's one of those tiny bits I can pick up in the little of free time currently available.
 
3:58 AM
The expectation is simply different. I also believe I have convinced myself that function arguments should not take functions by default. So no foo: func [a] [x: a print "hello"] with foo :quote.
If an argument can take a function, it must say so explicitly.
 
@MarkI By the way, I have, a long long time ago, started separating your "scan-phase-1" commit into one-commit-per-logical change (which was rather easy to do, because of your meticulous line number comments). Is there any/still interest in that as well, so that I should dig it up again?
@HostileFork Very interesting thought.
Immediately leads me ponder if we want to think about some kind of "strict" mode for these things.
 
any-value! (as a replacement for any-type!, which could sound like any-datatype!) does not include unset!. So an "optional" argument adds unset!. foo: func [a [unset! any-value!]] [...]. Proposed synonym at the generator level: foo: func [a [<opt> any-value!]] [...]
It could be possible to say that it comes from the generator and not from MAKE FUNCTION! itself. Hence any-inert! injected at the time of generation, or something.
 
There's always this tradeoff between quick and effective expression for interactive scripting, throw away stuff, quick experiments and the additional necessities for scaling up into (slightly) larger scripts where robustness and maintainability concerns tilt things around a bit.
 
I think passing functions is rare enough and any-value! is easy enough to type that it's not too arduous.
 
I, for one, per default tend to a rather "functional" programming style. Hence for scripting and experiments, having to declare higher-order arguments would be absolutely killer.
On the other hand, for bigger scripts, the robustness problems by passing functions around "unexpectedly" have at least sometimes concerned me.
 
4:04 AM
func: :func/relax
 
One thing I do note, which then takes care of this the other ways, is that for this robustness explicit type annotations are already often present. So that also takes care of functions sneaking in.
do rejoin collect [until [also empty? keep input keep newline]]
That's one way I'd write the multi-line hack that I saw mentioned in the star feed.
After having looked at the WHILE solution, I'd get rid of UNTIL + ALSO (ALSO is almost always impenetrable, to my eyes) and just use WHILE instead.
do rejoin collect [while [not empty? keep input] [keep newline]]
 
That collect, always useful. And now a nice piece of poetry in implementation, too: github.com/metaeducation/ren-c/blob/…
 
^^ @MarkI, point-free (but hopefully not pointless) variant of your multi-line input one-liner.
@HostileFork Looks very nice.
 
Which would ultimately become [<opt> any-value!] to step it forward, and then need to do something about the 16, but other than that...
I like these as the sort of focus points, the showpieces
And definitional return is definitely now one of those.
6
Q: Definitional Returns. Solved. Mostly

HostileFork I have made the bold claim that a longstanding problem in Rebol is "now solved"...that of "definitional returns". But of course, such claims need some peer review, and there's always some new trick to learn or improvement to make. So I thought I'd paste some code here. Even though it doesn't...

 
So, gotta run now. Was nice to be back hanging around a bit.
To keep that Austrian + Terminator meme alive: I'll be back.
2
Hopefully no later than Thursday. @johnk don't hesitate to drop me a mail, if there's troubles with the repo.
 
4:14 AM
@earl Bring more ninja coding weapons when you return. Cya.
 
@HostileFork Do you do the merge later on, or shall I quickly push it?
 
@earl I'm working on something at the moment, feel free.
Glad to see Shixin just going and changing things. No need to hold things up. If there's a problem, we can always revert it and go back. Odds are most things won't be.
 
@HostileFork Right, cool.
Another "good" deed, but one no one notices anything of, so far: there's a (somewhat complicated, unfortunately) build farm running building every commit to Ren/C on FreeBSD/x86, Linux/MIPSBE, Linux/x64, Linux/x86, OSX/x64, OSX/x86, and Win32/x86.
4
No regression testing, no publishable binaries.
And I still have to figure out a way of how to expose this.
Nevertheless, it's running. And it's all green, in case anyone wonders.
 
posted on December 15, 2015 by earl

Reproduction: blk: reduce [:add :subtract] blk/1 10 20 ** Script error: incompatible refinement: 1 Fix is to basically fall back on the old logic of making up an identifier for "unnamed" functions based on type. "Basically", because this is now much more stable and shaken out than it was in mainline. Compare Ren/C with this fix: >> b: reduce [:add] b/1 ** Script error: action! is

 
@earl Will be great to get binaries...of course still the question of things like that duplicate PNG decoding and other things to address. In general, modularizing and having the tickboxes... "which features do you want or not want"...
And then the inevitable "when to git-flow" question, which I think in general will come right around the time of any Atronix integration, so basically master would advance whenever Atronix sync'd.
 
4:29 AM
@HostileFork Yep. I wanted to have a play with CMake again to provide a solid story for these tickboxes.
 
4:57 AM
@fadelm0 If you're still around... I didn't get notification of your comment here on Trello. Comparison and how it relates to the hash-based operations is kind of fuzzy right now. There's a one-size-fits-all-hash and multiple kinds of equality, and the hash doesn't really directly correspond to any of the equalities AFAIK.
One answer to your question would be that in an ideal world, intersect [...] [...] would perform equivalently to if you wrote a naive implementation yourself and used = to compare the elements, whereas intersect/strict [...] [...] would give you the result if you used == to compare them. If that were the case, we'd already be a step ahead of today just in consistency.
If I'm not mistaken, today you get something along the lines of a hypothetical third operator hash-equal?, where two values that are = may not be hash-equal? (but where two values that are hash-equal? will be =)
So it's certainly not an ideal state of affairs. To see this non-idealism in action, see:
3
A: Remove duplicate objects from series in Rebol

HostileForkThe implementation of the equality check in UNIQUE and the other set operations appears to be Cmp_Value, and the way the comparison is done is to subtract the frame pointers of the objects. If that subtraction is zero (e.g. these are the SAME? object) then the comparison is considered a match: ...

I'd like to see across the board a shift in focus to bringing everything into alignment with the strict-equal? and equal? distinction. As mentioned earlier, the language may be better served making strict equality the default for = and then perhaps using ~ as an operator for "similar to**. if a ~ b [print "A is similar to B."]
So perhaps then, it would be intersect/similar vs intersect
Given that "strict-equal" sounds a bit like a contradiction in terms. Equal is equal.
I think in terms of principle of least surprise, the ~ idea with = as strict does have a lot going for it. Typing-wise it's a little bit of a pain, but reading-wise it's easy on the eyes.
(first "aaa") ~ "a" => true
(first "aaa") = "a" => false
It could be combined, also. >= and >~
Not remains controversial. People don't like !, I don't like <> (that's an empty tag to me, today and forever). not= and not~ are a bit odd looking for infix operators but in Ren-C there are now other hybrids... and*, or+...
Though they modify things that were already infix. not is prefix, so then you've got not= as infix and it's unusual.
 
 
1 hour later…
6:44 AM
Hi, where I live this is wrong:
>> sort/case [a C]
== [C a]
is it correct somewhere?
 
@Ladislav It is correct where C is numerically before c in the ASCII table
>> to-integer #"C"
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 67
 
>> to-integer #"c"
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 99
 
(As well as the unicode codepoints table.)
 
7:48 AM
@HostileFork What I am after is the question whether some nation would sort it this way, not whether some computer would do it.
 
@Ladislav Well, I'm all for tackling problems of what is intrinsic or natural. There may be some things that are just essential and true beyond what words we give to them. semiotics, e.g. Bouba/kiki.
I don't know if attacking the codepoint sort order of unicode is task one. There are those other things... like "11" vs "2", I forget but that has a name
sort/natural might not be a bad thing to have in the box, but... like I say, priorities.
 
@HostileFork, do I understand correctly that your commit rebol/rebol/#231 resolves a compiler warning?
 
8:03 AM
@Ladislav Yes, but the warning is about something regarding guarantees made by the compiler, so the warning is there to tell you that the code may or may not compile to what you think. sequence points and undefined behavior
Explanation in #230
 
8:35 AM
@HostileFork (and @earl) I guess that the issue in this case actually is that the Copy_Block(REBSER *block) function is not declared to not alter the block...
 
2
Q: Assignment and sequence points: how is this ambiguous?

EspressofaConsider the C code a = a = a. There's no sequence point for assignment, so this code produces a warning when compiling about an undefined operation on a. What are the possible values that a could have here? It seems like a couldn't possibly change values. Is there actually undefined behavior he...

 
@HostileFork you are missing the point, see my explanation above, please
 
I don't understand what your point is in light of the explanations. = is not a sequence point. Hence you may know that Copy_Block the function must do whatever evaluation is entailed by the expansion of VAL_OBJ_FRAME(value) before it is invoked. However this doesn't tell you whether VAL_OBJ_FRAME(value) = obj ran before or after that.
Rightly or wrongly, that's just how they made the rules. Notably different from the rules of (say) Rebol.
 
@HostileFork As I explained above, the Copy_Block is not declared correctly. Therefore, the compiler does not know it does not modify its block argument, and issues a warning. You did not correct the real cause of the warning.
The similar problem can be found in your commit #230, where the issue is related to the declaration of the VAL_BLK_DATA() function.
 
VAL_BLK_DATA() is a macro.
I'm not looking at the warnings you're looking at, and I don't know what you are compiling with. But when I compiled it the sequence point issue was raised. And making it const doesn't change anything (regarding the sequence point)
I'm not sure what part of the sequence point problem you believe would be solved by changing Copy_Block(). The problem is for any foo = bar = Baz(foo) you will have problems. The reductive case of a = a = a is just a demonstration of that. Baz can take a const parameter foo or not.
It's not afraid that Copy_Block is going to change value or any F(value). It's afraid that F(value) the expression appears twice in a chain of ='s.
 
9:10 AM
@HostileFork Ah, indeed, the #230 is different
 
 
3 hours later…
11:54 AM
posted on December 15, 2015 by Ladislav

[Comment] Thank you.

 
 
2 hours later…
1:38 PM
I know that it isn't in the priorities, but vectors can easily improved to support basix matrix algebra. Branch coming soon.
 
@earl Thank you for your efforts (and compliments)! Scan-phase-1 was my first commit, and was too ambitious. But I would like to re-commit its changes one at a time myself, both for the exercise and because I've slightly adjusted my priorities on what should be fixed now versus later. So, I hope to be able to handle it, and my plan is to do so by the end of the year.
@earl I like your version best of all. I wonder how many years it will be before I have collect/keep in my toolbox :/ Great stuff!
 
do form collect [until [empty? keep input] [keep newline]] would be e'en better.
THROW is something that I am having to do a mental shift toward thinking of as cheap, good, and handy.
@giuliolunati It's... definitely not in the priorities! But as vectors do not get a lot of use it cannot especially hurt to have them be exercised. I do not have an especially strong opinion about them except to say that maintaining such things and the code surrounding them when big changes are afoot can be frustrating.
I've not had to do a whole lot of vector maintenance, but some with the series shifts toward making it possible to fit small series into the series node. Hopefully they should be insulated beyond the changes done thus far when that happens.
 
 
2 hours later…
3:39 PM
@RebolBot
foo: make bitset! 1
probe foo
poke foo 0 0
probe foo
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
make bitset! #{00}
make bitset! #{00}
== make bitset! #{00}
 
@RebolBot
foo: make bitset! 1
probe foo
poke foo 0 true? 0
probe foo
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
make bitset! #{00}
make bitset! #{80}
== make bitset! #{80}
 
@RebolBot
foo: make bitset! 1
probe foo
poke foo 0 []
probe foo
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-invalid-arg.html
    make bitset! #{00}
*** ERROR
** Script error: invalid argument: []
** Where: poke
** Near: poke foo 0 [] probe foo
 
3:41 PM
@RebolBot
foo: make bitset! 1
probe foo
poke foo 0 0.00001
probe foo
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
make bitset! #{00}
make bitset! #{80}
== make bitset! #{80}
 
@RebolBot
foo: make bitset! 1
probe foo
poke foo 0 0.0000
probe foo
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
make bitset! #{00}
make bitset! #{00}
== make bitset! #{00}
 
Am I the only one who thinks this is kind of... silly?
I propose that bitsets only accept TRUE and FALSE for poke. You are then free to use TRUE? or ZERO? or whatever you like.
 
yes
 
3:52 PM
I guess I could be optimistic and think that you are saying that "yes you like the proposal" or I can be realistic and assume that you're saying "yes I am the only one who thinks it's silly"
 
no, I like it. I don’t see a reason why you should put 0.00001 in a bitset.
 
Well, okay then. Good.
From an inside-the-code point of view it's bad, so it caught my attention to look at what it was doing
And predictably, I didn't like it.
I think that some of these things probably predate stuff like ZERO?
Too bad we don't have a better word than "nonzero?" for numbers that aren't zero.
Doing a large "boolean review" right now. C is very lax about integers vs. booleans, and you can wind up passing a boolean where an integer was expected or vice versa, so there are some mistakes in there. Found a bug or two, nothing too catastrophic yet.
Things like passing TRUE where a set of formatting option flags was expected, so you end up with whatever formatting option #1 was... when it intended something else.
if x not= y [...] ;-- Hm, I don't think it would be that bad if it weren't for the established position of not. One is very inclined to see not as being strongly bound to the right of what it operates on, not in between things.
Which makes one wonder if it's prefix not that should be symbolic.
A competing possibility for ~, perhaps, to "similar?". if ~ x [print "x is falsey."] Bah. Nah. I like ~ for similar better, it isn't weighted left or right, looks very "between" with the spaces. Maybe in languages where it would say if ~x [...] it could work, not here.
 
4:48 PM
posted on December 15, 2015 by hostilefork

R3-Alpha would allow you to poke numbers into bitsets, and checked to see if those numbers were zero or not (where zero is false). This behavior of zero-detection as logic is used no other place in the code, confuses the type handling, and isn't consistent with Rebol's "zero is not false" belief. >> foo: make bitset! 1 == make bitset! #{00} >> poke foo 0 0.000000000000001 ==

 
5:33 PM
FWIW make logic! 0 is also inconsistent with "zero is not false". Are we sure there isn't a good reason for this?
By which I simply mean to inquire whether there are other places that depend on this behaviour that also need this fix.
 
5:58 PM
Datatype Behavior on Rebol3 Porting Guide ("Ren-C" branch)
### Rebol2 ### >> if 0 [print "zero is TRUE? in Rebol"] zero is TRUE? in Rebol >> to logic! 0 == false >> make logic! 0 == false ### Rebol3 ### >> if 0 [print "zero ...
✍ 1 comment
> "Note that MAKE wasn't so much intentionally-not-changed as it was 'seems not as clear what MAKE means for datatypes'. (Not that TO is always that clear either, but...)

The behavior for TO is pretty reasonably correct now, but what make should do is up in the air."
In other news, heading up the "this is why I think much of the code outside the core bits being given attention to is headed for the bin...": github.com/metaeducation/ren-c/commit/…
How many mistakes can one function have? Answer... loooots!
This is why I went after stuff with names like VAL_LEN and VAL_BLK_DATA.
Those two, for instance... now VAL_LEN_AT(v) --arity 1, hints the AT index must come from somewhere-- and VAL_ARRAY_AT(v) --same deal--.
Additionally the cleanup of the question of "is it a block or not" when it's a path, paren, etc.
 
@HostileFork Right. I was just wondering, since to logic! 0 was made true in R3, was there a special reason the make was left alone.
 
Nope.
Other than a belief that MAKE is a universe unto itself with perhaps less preconception guiding it.
make block 10... empty block, capacity 10, okay. Well... I guess?
 
I mean, was there a special reason Carl and the R3 team at the time left it alone, I understand why you did.
 
>> to block! 10
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [10]
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [10]
 
6:08 PM
That's a neat trick ... how'd you do that? Just curious.
 
Should get in there and see what some of these botbugs are about. Surprising it wouldn't have good track of which message ID got edited properly.
Just a botbug. Or do you mean the neat trick of getting a PR accepted into rebol?
 
:) no, the botbug
 
That I don't think I can explain how it happened.
Cosmic rays
 
 
3 hours later…
8:48 PM
@HostileFork cherry-picked your commit. Great work, as usual!... some compilation issue (have you tried it? ;-) Error in my previous commit, however.
 
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