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12:00 AM
@HostileFork Just a quick mention, I am not sure how to resolve the offset problem if MOLD is always MOLD/ALL.
>> x: next [a b c] print [to string! x form x mold x mold/all x]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
bc b c [b c] #[block! [a b c] 2]
 
@MarkI What "offset problem"?
>> mold/all next [1 2 3]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== "#[block! [1 2 3] 2]"
 
What's the problem?
 
@earl Note beginnings of semi-organization: %sys-series.h, %sys-do.h, %sys-value.h ... not all lined up yet, but getting there.
 
12:01 AM
@earl Four different "to string" variants, without bare MOLD there's no variant that returns "[b c]".
 
@MarkI What do you need that returned for?
 
posted on December 15, 2015 by abolka

[Comment] To try to make up for the sloppy review, I pushed three very simple test cases to test for functions-called-via-path :) (https://github.com/rebolsource/rebol-test/commit/eca8da869a3d683dab38ec771e556a7d74ce89f4)

 
(Honest Q.)
>> mold/all copy next [1 2 3]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== "[2 3]"
 
When you absolutely need to ignore offset series positioning, there's always that.
 
12:04 AM
Because it is what MOLD of [b c] returns, which compares equal to next [a b c]. Honest answer. :)
 
Ok.
So because we have a sloppy comparison operator, we also need sloppy serialisation to match the sloppy comparisions. Is that a somewhat fair restatement?
 
Works for me ...
 
("non-strict")
Honest Q, because I really always wonder what these "lossy to varying degress" representations are used for.
 
Freedom?
 
I can understand that you want one of them that's supposed to be "human friendly".
If I now say "freedom from vs freedom to" @HostileFork will slap me.
 
12:07 AM
Construction-friendly? Capability-friendly? Flexibly friendly?
 
Freedom at the cost of a combinatorial explosion.
 
Lossy comparisons are intended to reduce complexity, er, maybe.
 
But I guess we can keep that explosion contained, if we keep a close eye on the mechanisms relied upon "internally".
 
@earl Slap you a high five, because I generally think "freedom from" is under-emphasized in software, because people get overzealous about "freedom to" without considering the consequences.
 
Well, it seems the well intentioned "lossy comparisons are easier" approach has mostly failed in practice.
"Say what you mean" can be well-intentioned too, I think.
 
12:11 AM
@earl Easier to read, definitely. Easier to write, possibly. Easier to provide, not really. Easier to debug, probably not.
 
Anyway. Thanks for clarifying.
I'd say even the "easier to read" only goes so far.
 
What? You'll give me it goes a distance? :)
 
You have to keep a big matrix of implied conversions in your head, to read somewhat accurately.
@MarkI Long or short, that's the Q :)
 
Yah, you are right. We already have that problem with TO, though.
 
Yes, we have tons of such self-inflicted problems :)
>> [b c] = next [a b c]
 
12:13 AM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== true
 
>> [b c] == next [a b c]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== true
 
Now where's the comparison operator that's strict + position-heeding ...
 
@earl I had a vague hypnagogic thought the other night that ~ might become the "approximately equal to" operator and = might be strict.
1 ~ 1.0 ; true
1 = 1.0 ; false
 
But thanks a lot, @MarkI. Based on "compares non-strictly equal" there's probably a good invariant to be made to help in the MOLD/all, MOLD, FORM, TO-STRING junge. For people like me, who like these pesky things.
@HostileFork Yup. Would match a vague long-term wish of mine. For the "green slate" dept.
 
12:17 AM
@earl Oh speaking of long term wishes, the handling of unset may or may not be closer to what you had in mind than historical.
 
@HostileFork Pointers to add to the stash of things to read?
 
Unset Changes on Rebol3 Porting Guide ("Ren-C" branch)
With Rebol already having a unit type in the form of NONE!, the existence of UNSET! at all seemed questionable. It had some "prickly" behaviors that helped cause some locality in errors down the l...
 
New lease on life! Heresy!
:)
I'll be sure to have a look, thanks.
And will refrain from uninformed remarks until then :)
So I get 4 test failures with the ren-c fork of the tests.
Two are the usual rounding failures, because of my libc. So ignore.
 
@earl You should get 2 in the source formatting checks.
 
[not find source-analysis [line-exceeds 127]] "failed"
[not find source-analysis 'malloc] "failed"
That's the source formatting checks, I guess?
 
12:21 AM
Yup, that's source-analysis. It's there as a background task.
 
So "zero-except-for-not-zero".
Can we disable them, somehow?
 
@earl I would be glad to assist and/or collaborate upon such a proposal in any way I could.
 
@earl Sure, for now it's fine to put a semicolon in front of them, and I'll just run them myself.
 
@MarkI Do you think that hint of an invariant alone could be enough for "human-friendlyness"? Or do you have an idea on how to quantify that as well?
@HostileFork Ah, right, sorry. Stupid me. Still the plain core-tests format, right? Nothing mixed into the results file from external tooling.
Yep.
 
@earl Yes, nothing but tabbing has changed in the stuff that runs the tests, although maybe I did check in some change at one point or another.
Note also all the Rebol2 tests are gone. Extracted into their own file also (for historical review if interesting)
 
12:24 AM
So no changes on the test runner yet?
 
Can't promise but certainly nothing materially significant.
Maybe a literal unset got taken out, back when I was thinking of prohibiting literal unsets.
 
I have long planned to whip up a basic alternate test runner.
Without crashes and a working CALL, that should be even simpler than before.
 
Perhaps a foreach became a for-each. The Rebol2 tag taken out of the tag list.
If anything changed, it's that.
 
Btw: git merge -Xignore-space-change
Helps a bit, with whitespace conversions.
 
@earl It's a good start I think. Ideally I would like the notions of "equality" and "form" to get refined in parallel, and this would be a step.
 
12:30 AM
@earl One thing to notice is that APPLY is now deprecated and userspace, and the new lease on life for unsets is why it can be.
 
@HostileFork If you don't mind, I'll merge up ren-c-test with rebolsource/rebol-test. There's only a few additional tests gone into rebol-test since ren-c-test diverged, and some additional docs you're probably not interested in.
I could cherry-pick the "meaty" tests as well, but it's easier to just stay merged while it's still possible.
 
@earl Sure, merge away.
 
All that said, I haven't yet checked if the merged runner or tests still work :)
So, just a note for now.
Ok, looks like it still works.
[0 = do "quit"] "failed"
Is a new "regression". Added that along with [42 = do "quit/return 42"] when we last talked about the nested scripts and return value semantics.
In Ren/C:

>> mold/all do "quit"
== "#[unset!]"
 
@earl UNSET! default (matching break, continue, etc.) and the conversion to 0 is done in the exit status translation.
Preferred refinement for value returning: /with
 
Either is fine, I guess.
unset! more Rebol-centric thinking, 0 more exit-status-as-integers-OS-centric thinking.
>> mold/all do "quit"
 
12:37 AM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== "0"
 
>> mold/all do ""
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== "#[unset!]"
 
Well, unset! the better default, then.
 
Yip.
@earl do "quit/with 42" => 42 is easy if DOs actually wish to catch quits implicitly. QUITs are thrown, so just a check to see if that was thrown inside here But not catching is the more flexible option, because then you can choose to let a called script exit or not... if it always catches, no choice.
 
@HostileFork That seems works in Ren/C already, yes.
Ren/C build as of today:

>> do "quit/return 42"
== 42
 
12:44 AM
That probably only works because it's top level.
I dunno. Not in a buildable state. But long story short, I am not the person to ask about it, because the scripting scenarios that involve one automation calling another are not things I do a lot of.
 
>> do {do "quit/return 42"}
== 42
>> do {do "quit/return 42" 99}
== 99
Looks good.
 
Hm, maybe because it's a string
Try a block
 
Shouldn't work in a block :)
Using a string is supposed to be a shorthand for do %script.r.
 
I do not know why it would be different, but if you do, be sure to write up a "theory of quitting".
Which would probably wind up being half an article that just cuts off in the middle.
 
... :)
Well, there's supposed to be a difference between running code blocks and "scripts".
 
12:48 AM
posted on December 15, 2015 by abolka

[Comment] As mentioned above, this works "properly" for Windows as-is. It's just slightly harder to observe the exit code in GUI-mode builds (see my 2010-11-05 comment). As the open source code-base can be now built either way, the remaining concern from BrianH is addressed as well, so I'll close this.

 
If you have the latter (a "script"), you can get to the former (a code block) by adding a LOAD.
This whole notions is certainly debatable. Just trying to frame how it was.
I have no pressing need to change that. Especially that with "modules" added to the mix, the notions probably will diverge further instead of drifting closer.
But for scripts calling scripts, there's this question of how to stop the currently running script but not the whole interpreter.
 
I could see the filename perhaps being a cue to catch quit, less so a string I guess.
 
1:03 AM
@earl In the "proposals to think about" bag, you said once that we shouldn't worry about things like <transparent> being a tag because it's a string and takes up space "per copy" because they could be interned, and I have some rather progressive thinking on this matter...which leads to (among other things) getting rid of symbol table in entries in favor of an extension of the REBSER node with copy-on-write abilities, as well as being able to store short enough series data in the REBSER itself
Leading up to the ability to bind ANY-STRING! regardless of its evaluative behavior... with WORD!/SET-WORD! etc. becoming any string. Binding effectively turns it into a protected series. Operations like copy/part quote some-word: 4 => some: would be possible.
 
@HostileFork Did you happen to do any benchmarks on the "immediate series" idea?
That's a long-standing idea about Rebol perf opt, would be interesting to see how it turns out.
Given that we indulge in this piggy business.
 
@earl Haven't yet. Just laying foundations. The trick of having end signaled by a 0 in the low bit allows a pointer to terminate the data when it lives in the REBSER, so the misc. can do that.
 
It'd of course need additional checks necessary for series access to discern between immediate and external series.
 
Yes, flag check in the info.
 
And that has the potential to kill and performance benefits.
 
1:08 AM
Locality is a lot of the performance story these days, and less memory consumption means more locality. We will see.
 
But that's fighting with the TLB and jump stalls vs fighting with memory indirection. Generally needs solid benchmarks on modern architectures to fight out.
Yeah, but locality is only one part to the mix.
Blowing the I$ or the TLB or killing the branch predictor are similarly nasty.
 
Well the other big timing you save is the timing of the allocation and freeing themselves
Accesses aside
 
With incredibly huge 3-level caches, locality ain't what it used to be. On the other hand, with increasingly more cores and increasingly difficult cache coherence protocols, there's that.
 
But as we generally agree, there's not much point in performance or memory optimizing something that doesn't work, so hopefully the Big Problem Solvings like definitional return and SELF and the others will be on the radar.
 
@HostileFork Certainly, right. If that matters is a question of creation vs access ratio. Intuitively (insert buzzer here), I'd lean towards accesses dominating, significantly.
@HostileFork Yep, exactly.
On the contrary, performance optimisations at this point are typically actively harmful.
They constrain your design space ("if I just drop that there, I can squeeze that bit free here and it will be oh-so-much-faster").
 
1:12 AM
Yes, which is why I don't do that kind of optimization.
Until it is an appropriate time.
 
Which is probably just about never, in Rebol :)
Granted, there is a level of basic performance work that is well warranted.
 
Some things it's about opening up space so optimizations and degrees of freedom are possible.
 
As you very eloquently once explained, the whole internal stack in R3's impl is a performance opt.
And your rewrite to pass return values for natives not explicitly on the stack but tell natives via a pointer where to put the return value (if I remember that correctly; please correct me, if that's wrong) is a similar optimisation.
Those are things I consider warranted.
 
I consider warranted that the fixed size portion of the call frame is actually just the internal variable state of Do. Reb_Call
 
Sounds like I'd consider that warranted as well :)
 
1:16 AM
Which includes said "out" pointer.
 
And even more so, because it sounds like it would make it even easier, to do some wide-ranging changes to the core interpreter model.
Like I've been thinking quite a bit about how to get some basic coroutine/generator facilities into Rebol. Mostly to get rid of the callback madness and replace it with something async/await-like.
 
The former "chunk stack" is now a generic REBVAL array allocation service used only by the variable-sized portion...and only if it's not a CLOSURE! (which goes ahead and makes the series)
But we have some recent thinking that may do away with the FUNCTION!/CLOSURE! distinction...and not necessarily in the way one would think. In fact, a new way.
 
And then I know how to actually implement delimited continuations in order to get what I want in a very nice and reusable way. But retrofitting an existing interpreter which was never designed to cater for this is a whole different beast :)
 
I imagine you will find that Ren-C is superior along basically any axis of measurement.
 
So, thinking on and off. And you Reb_Call refactoring looks like it could be of great help.
 
1:20 AM
And not to be underestimated: in its debuggability
My general hope is that what can happen is, Ren-C gets to a sort of stabilized point with the major features of the evaluator sifted out. Then Atronix uptakes the core. Shixin is on board with death to RXIARG and all that, and just using the same primitives that the core does to pick apart series or whatever when it has to.
 
Hm.
I think limiting the API exposed to external consumers has very significant merit.
 
I call it "Ren-C++"
 
posted on December 15, 2015 by abolka

[Wish] Currently, in Rebol 3, when using one Rebol script to run another via DO, the called script can return Rebol values to the calling script. In the simplest case, the returned value is the last evaluated value in the inner script, similar to the implied return in functions: >> do {10 + 20 3 + 4} == 7 ;; Good (NB: I use strings instead of files in these examples. Currently code

 
Doesn't have to be RXIARG, certainly, but exposing all of the core to third-party consumers sounds like it imposes an unmanageable burden on interface stability.
 
This isn't any third party consumer, it's R3-View.
 
1:24 AM
Which is a third-party consumer.
Hopefully it'll be one even more so, on day.
And external as well, hopefully.
 
Well I have no qualms about there being a library layer that is RXIARG-based or RXIARG-evolved based being over Ren-C, that is neither Ren-C++ nor inside the Ren-C code.
 
As is Ren/C++, and if this core thing picks up, hopefully one day a whole bunch of other consumers.
@HostileFork A proper, well-maintained library layer. Right. That's what I'm saying.
 
Ren-C++ is happy to be implemented over top of Ren-C and adapt to a new version if Ren-C changes.
 
@HostileFork That's you saying it now, because you are the only one changing Ren-C.
 
Okay, GitHub.com rebolsource/rebol-stable-api... we'll begin moving the RXIARG stuff over to you promptly. :-)
 
1:27 AM
Well-maintained library: documentation, API stability guarantees, careful maintenance and evolvement.
@HostileFork Don't pull that trick on me.
 
I am comfortable with people who want that level of abstraction being willing to use C++, in my measuring of the concerns and resource allocations that I have at my disposal.
 
Just saying that a well-maintained, manageable C API is a good thing.
 
I cannot personally be responsible for RXIARG as it is, and I cannot schedule time in this lifetime for an alternative C API to the one used internally. That's just speaking from what I can realistically believe. I have enough lack of realism driving the work as is.
 
Exposing all of Ren-C as this "API" doesn't sound like a manageable thing at all.
Basically you'd have to either freeze most of the core almost completely, or continually break things for your external consumers.
 
Well, you think the stable C API is of great importance. I don't especially.
 
1:30 AM
At which point, the question is: what would you then claim to want external consumers anyway?
@HostileFork Oh, interesting. That then goes in stark contrast with what I thought to understood your ideas about Ren-C to be in the first place.
 
I feel that the down-to-the-wire nature of someone who would be motivated to interface using C to the interpreter reflects a personality and interests that likely wouldn't want any layer in the way about as often as wanting the stable one.
 
A nicely embeddable and reusable Rebol core.
"Rebol as a library"
Well, maybe try to put yourself in Shixin's shoes, to make it less abstract.
I imagine that spending a lot of time to run after the hundreds of renamings (which are certainly for themselves a very good idea, to add clarity) in what is supposed to be an "API" is not much fun.
Neither is the RXIARG interface as is, before that straw man comes up again.
 
Ren-C's guts should not have to change as often as you may think, just because it has been changing a lot recently. If its design were grounded on principles of why it had the types it had then having a numbering scheme where REB_BLOCK is 13 and RXI_BLOCK is 7 (or whatever) would be an unnecessary concern.
I think that the idea of being stable against recompilation is different than being stable against binary interface, and the binary interface stability doesn't move me very much.
 
@HostileFork That's just what Carl thought, probably, and yet you refactored it completely.
Designers disagree, knowledge evolves, aesthetics do too.
Freezing the core hasn't done much good once, and I fear it won't do much good if it is tried again.
@HostileFork Even if it's just stable against recompilation (though binary interfaces can go quite far, if desired), that means only very conservative progression over all internal functions.
Without backwards compatibility shims: no shuffling in parameters, no renaming of functions, no memory layout changes, etc.
 
Well, I'd prefer more productive pursuits than debating this. If you're going to be around and want to champion for this C layer, then let's try and see something come out of it better than the likes of this
 
1:40 AM
@HostileFork I'm sorry that you don't consider this feedback productive.
 
Well, I just don't want to worry about hypothetical clients, there's a lot to do and it requires more structured and orderly thinking than what came before...
And the agility to actually build significant and thought-out layers means being uncuffed from bending over backwards to maintain junk.
 
The relative badness of the past RXIARG interface (which was created at a time when it was still believed that the core would be kept closed) doesn't invalidate the general idea, in my book.
To the contrary, there being multiple known working external clients building to something even as bad as the RXIARG interface, which still work with open source R3 and at least early versions of Ren/C only illustrates how well such a clear separation works.
 
Perhaps but it's a priority question. As I say, who are these clients? Do they need binary compatibility or are they willing to recompile? I say if they are willing to recompile then for now, the routines that Ren-C use...for these very few clients, is a good one for those who demand C. And Ren-C++ will be the stable, maintainable, you don't worry about GC or any of that interface.
I think these clients don't actually want to deal with the ever-evolving nuances of the C implementation, it's just too twiddly.
And getting twiddlier.
 
Ren/C++ is a separate beast. It's C++. No go for almost everything, except C++ consumers.
But If you build a plain C interface on top of Ren/C++, certainly.
@HostileFork Right, they certainly don't want to deal with this evolution. That's the raison d'etre for a limited, stable API :)
 
Well... I have to think about my market. If you want to be in the market and you have demands for your extensions you're going to write or use, and you're not going to join the Peace Corps and live in the Himalayas, that is one thing.
 
1:47 AM
@HostileFork One of the pesky issues about external APIs, is that we will never know these clients.
At best, you'll know by suddenly appearing angry customers.
At worst, you'll just know indirectly by lack of adoption.
And we have both in Rebol already :)
@HostileFork Sure, understood. Your priorities are of course yours to set.
 
My market right now consists largely of: @Brett, @rgchris, @johnk, @kealist, @giuliolunati ... mostly all user concerns... and coordinating with @ShixinZeng. Shixin leans on the side of thinking RXIARGs are bad, doesn't mind C++ AFAIK.
 
That's the ones you know, right.
Shixin seems to be regularly surprised about API changes, but so far seems to cope somewhat. No idea if they have internally fully ported to Ren/C already. But there's your first indications of "angry customers".
 
I do not think not doing it immediately has anything to do with being an "angry customer", it has to do with timing.
It's not ready to be done.
 
I was more thinking about the regular remarks in Github issues.
Or this slew of recent fixup commits: github.com/metaeducation/ren-c/commits/master
 
That looks like speculatively interested customer, who is adapting to the changes.
 
1:52 AM
Right. Anybody's guess how long such a customer is willing to follow along vs just fork.
But, no offense intended, in any way.
 
I think we understand the nature of the beast, and certainly if anyone is sympathetic to how opaque the source is and difficult to delve into, it would be him.
 
It's very hard for me to discern the things where you are honestly interested in having a discussion versus things where you just mention something but don't seem to have any real interest in someone following up on it.
 
So the illuminating modifications, while they may necessarily introduce speedbumps (esp. given that I am not building or testing against the GUI build at all), I imagine are quite the majority welcome.
Example?
 
This very discussion.
 
Eh. Well I'm a little miffed that you don't have time to absorb the rather epic solution to the foundational problem of definitional return, but have time to question my prioritization on RXIARGs and such.
 
1:54 AM
Eh?
Didn't I say above that I will read this?
 
Yes, at some point, but this is more pressing somehow.
 
May I have my own priorities as well, pretty please?
But that's precisely another example.
Real discussion about definitional returns still wanted?
 
I said I'm okay with a C layer which lets people work with the interpreter, and that layer is smart enough to help keep them from making the scary mistakes with the GC, and that it allows shufflings internally, then fine.
I am not going to work on it. Sorry if you feel that makes Ren-C false advertising.
I have an answer to that in the form of Ren-C++, it is an answer that I am happy with.
I am not going to rewrite Ren-C++ to use this other C abstraction layer.
It is up to the implementer of that C abstraction layer if they wish to code to Ren-C directly, or to build atop Ren-C++.
 
"[Ren/C] has many goals: [..] To create a library form of the interpreter, which is focused on providing the full spectrum of Rebol's internals to other projects."
 
So if that's not discussing it, I don't know what is.
 
1:58 AM
Yes, I strongly feel that is false advertising.
 
"The full spectrum of Rebol's internals"
How do you provide access to the full spectrum through an abstraction layer like the one proposed?
 
If the form of providing this to 'other projects' is by dumping objects on them and have them follow along with every whim of the upstream project.
Sure, that is a form of "providing". Engineering wise, I'd feel cheated ...
But then, we just source-dump zlib into our own tree, so it's I guess it's a question of engineering culture.
Wouldn't be funny if they changed their APIs around every other week ...
But then, this "hard-fork, import, maintain yourself" provision of internals to other projects was already totally possible with Rebol before that, as you so aptly demonstrated with Ren/C++.
Anyway. I think my point is understood.
Death to RXIARG, I'm all for it. Having something better instead, which external consumers can reliably depend upon would be great.
Having one aspect of that being Ren/C++ for external C++ consumers: obviously.
 
My hat is amazing
 
@earl Well, we can cut it up and make a third thing, Ren-Guts or whatever, and move RXIARG into Ren-C, and then think of what the new thing is I guess. I don't know.
 
Cool. Clock of long-now, not forgotten.
 
2:07 AM
I don't especially think that what the world needs is a C API to these services, and I would strongly encourage clients to look at the tremendous benefits afforded by using the C++.
 
There's hundreds of clients which can talk to C APIs. There's only a handful, which can talk to C++ APIs.
 
Use messaging and talk to Rebol code directly. :-/ I guess it still really is about "who are these people"
I can throw a rock a couple links from anywhere on the Internet and hit cool interesting ideas with known markets. So worrying about ones I don't know exist is definitely clock of the long now.
 
Atronix, Saphirion, Maxim's place of work
 
And I would say that ideally, R3-View would become a Ren-C++ client
 
You know they exist.
 
2:10 AM
Saphirion doesn't use Rebol anymore.
 
Sure they do. A lot.
 
Well, don't develop on it. Saphir anyway
Sep 4 at 9:53, by Cyphre
@GrahamChiu From what I know Saphirion put R3 developement on hold but things may have change...
Or so said then.
 
Things may change indeed.
Still, they use Rebol a lot.
And in one years time or five or ten, they'll most likely have to think about how to proceed with their R2-based products.
Haven't seen much changing on the Carl front in this aspect, so one possible evolutionary path seems to be pretty obvious.
Anyway, I think we understand each others thinking now.
 
Okay, well, if you want to head in and prevent the "disaster of history" that would occur if R3-View starts doing VAL_TYPE( ) or ARRAY_HEAD( ) calls directly, then perhaps you should start on modeling RXIARG that does not suck.
 
Again, sorry if I offended you at some point. No personal offence intended.
 
2:15 AM
No, no big deal
Just been a lot of work, that's all.
 
Much appreciated, really.
 
Things that sound a bit like "you're not doing enough" grates
Even if it's not precisely what is said
 
Not what I'm trying to say.
You brought something up, I wanted to add a perspective to it. That's all.
There's no expectancy or pressure or ungratefulness involved.
 
Well, added. And we can perhaps take that point of view, that maybe Ren-C is the name for a "stabler" API than what it is currently thought to be, which is essentially "the core"
For now the idea being that C clients would work at the same level with the same API the interpreter uses, and you statically link it in.
 
Give me some time to look into it the other "lot of work" as well, then the appreciation will be more concrete.
 
2:18 AM
Yip
So if you don't like API changes, don't merge up. This model may be annoying some places, but if it bugs you, try using Node.JS libraries
 
But, have to pick up that joyless point again: I honestly don't know what to do with it.
 
"it"?
 
Sometimes I feel like "only cheers allowed".
 
Morale is important.
 
You know that e.g. definitional return and unsets are things that interest me deeply.
So I consider it likely, that I'll be very interested in actually discussing bits here and there.
Maybe elucidate a point, inquire about another.
How to do that, without giving you the feeling that all this questioning is ungrateful?
 
2:22 AM
Eh, dunno. Risk we run. Technical critique--given in non-reactionary fashion--is easier than process/priority discussions I'd say.
Usually told through examples.
 
"Don't open up a 100+ function set as API" is a purely technical critique.
 
Perhaps but just maybe not something to tackle on day 1. There's also a bit of latent irritation about the GitHub import holdup, etc. So it's not a full clean slate. Do some good deeds and all will be forgotten. :-)
 
You mean the Github import holdup which I wrote the first half of and then got held up for 2 years.
Seems good deeds are equally fast forgotten.
 
Oh, you know what I mean.
 
I'm not sorry that I have other things to attend to as well.
 
2:27 AM
You are thank'd in the definitional returns for the tests and such, without each piece in the puzzle the next can't happen, moves in fits and starts.
 
"The tests and such"
 
The Giant Twine Code Ball
 
If the only way that this works for you is by me having a similarly full-time commitment as you do, then that's simply not going to work for me.
 
"Also: a huge debt is owed to the smoke test suite and the efforts of @earl and @Ladislav, et al. Without those efforts this entire thing would have almost certainly never happened." trello.com/c/4Kg3DZ2H
 
"the tests and such"
 
2:28 AM
@earl I didn't say that, but as you just noted, creating the repository and giving the bot access isn't so much.
 
@HostileFork Yes, but it's so much that I simply didn't have time for it.
Sorry to @johnk, didn't ever intend to actively stall or disrespect your work.
 
Well this is sidetracking. We can sidetrack or we can do interesting stuff.
Any contributions you elect to make are good, meeting your needs with Ren-C as a customer is important if you wish to be one.
 
Seems we can only do that, when stars and our interests happen to align.
@HostileFork I am one.
 
Well there's no huge disagreement here really, besides the fact that I don't see C clients for extensions as a high priority right now beyond those willing to roll with API changes.
And I'd lobby those wishing to embed Rebol functionality to take the small amount of time to learn the C++ way.
 
You know that C++ is simply not a sensible option, for many a customer, right :) ?
 
2:35 AM
Given that I don't know who these customers are, I do not know that about them.
 
Heh, you know. You just choose to ignore.
I think Maarten was around a few months ago, talking about embedding Rebol into Go.
 
To the extent that I don't know that if they insist on C, that they couldn't cope with a reasonably stable core API of 100+ functions, which we could break out and tone down.
 
No C++ there.
@HostileFork Cool. Let's break it out and tone it down to have a serious API. That's all I'm saying.
I think I also asked you about exactly these experiences back with Ren/C++, precisely to help defining such a more useful API.
We also know about Atronix and Saphirion having /View, SQLite, MySQL, and similar clients.
 
The API is getting smaller, clearer, sorted, cleaner ... per the %sys-series.h and %sys-value.h and %sys-do.h ... it will be easier to see what would need to be wrapped. I simply don't think that calling the APIs directly as being written would be that hard to port to a wrapped version, relative to dealing with RXIARGs and such
Porting clean, sane code written to the Ren-C evolving APIs to something that abstracts them will be way easier than RXIARG RXICAL whatever that is
e.g. Ren-C's own APIs are being tailored to be sane, at a level that within the core it feels reasonable and stable and literate.
They serve as a much better "interim" C API than RXIARGs do
 
Sane and stable are two different concerns.
Also one of these freedom from and freedom to issues.
 
2:42 AM
Better to layer Stable over Sane than try and layer Sane over merely Stable
 
Ren/C the freedom to evolve it's internal API freely, that is without having to worry about customers it can't know about.
And the freedom for these external customers to have a clearly defined set of things they have to worry about.
@HostileFork Absolutely, yes :)
 
@earl You're very much invited to be the Czar on it, and in fact, if you wanted to undertake the aforementioned separation... so that Ren-C and Ren-C++ were both the paralleled API fronts for this "other thing", I would not mind. Even if you wanted to say that what goes in Ren-C is just today's RL_Api and friends.
At present time, that would indeed make Ren-C++ a client of this Ren-C because it does (at the moment) depend on RL_Api, but only trivially so, and I'd be willing to eliminate that dependency.
Which I've been dragging my feet on because I didn't "have to"
Hmm, I guess indirectly dependent because of core-ext and those crypto things.
 
I don't think forbidding any external consumer that is ok with following the full internal API to also use the RL_* API (or any other reduced API) is necessary.
So if Ren/C++ is ok with following Ren/C's full internals, I think it's certainly also OK for it to use Ren/C's stable external API.
 
@earl You have familiarity in terms of building the R3-View and the workings of that code, as Atronix uses it today?
 
@HostileFork I'm vaguely familiar with the stuff that is openly available, yes.
 
2:57 AM
If you want to get in on the thinking of what-to-do-about-RXIARG it is around time to do it. As things in Ren-C change like how END is interpreted or logic not having a payload, it raises all those questions about whether there will be a parallel structure and a parallel unpacking... or if those will go through API calls (RL_Val_Logic() ?) or what.
The parallel structure macros bother me as an answer.
My answer, which you may not like, is use the same macros.
So if you don't like my answer, this is where to get involved.
 
Just to take this step back one last time, because I think we have discussed this sufficiently :)
It is not about me liking or not liking an answer.
I give my point of view, which is that "using the same macros" ultimately either imposes rather strict stability guarantees on these macro, or you regularly break external customers.
 
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