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12:01 AM
The way SELF was done was particularly insidious. It was hardcoded into the bind routine.
        else if (selfish && VAL_WORD_CANON(value) == SYM_SELF) {
            VAL_WORD_INDEX(value) = 0;
            VAL_WORD_TARGET(value) = FRAME_VARLIST(frame);
        }
Getting that out is a very good thing but also a very big and complicated change... I've made significant progress on it but it shows there's going to be a bit more to do.
 
12:51 AM
@redbot
obj: make object! [f: does [probe self]]
obj/f
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
make object! [
    f: func [][probe self]
]
== make object! [
    f: func [][probe self]
]
 
I'm going to guess offhand that if Red doesn't have hidden keys, that there is no self key in that object. Hm, let's see.
Here self is made with symbol/make "self". After that point, it can access the symbol with words/self. It's hidden in the object with save-self-object.
There's mention of a self? flag which we might presume is the opposite of "selfless?"... and here we see the comparable test for symbol self with index -1
almost the same, except the "not a real index into a real thing in the frame" index is -1 instead of 0.
I am good at guessing.
 
 
1 hour later…
2:30 AM
Crash in Ren-c:
>> intersect/skip [1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3][2 2 2 2] 4
Assertion failed!

Program: C:\Users\kealist\Documents\GitHub\blah\ren-c\make\r3.exe
File: ../src/core/n-data.c, Line 1253

Expression: NOT_END(v)
 
2:43 AM
@kealist thanks, can reproduce...
 
various record lengths do the same
i.e. intersect/skip [1 1 2 2 3 3][2 2] 2
 
 
1 hour later…
4:10 AM
@HostileFork do you want an issue for that?
Is all Rebol3 testing just regression tests?
 
@kealist I've got it, starting looking at it now... just had to commit some SELF-stuff first...
@kealist Right now there are 4 tests I work with, basically. One is the core-tests.r. These are tests that had been around that earl and Ladislav were using, mostly to test things that were coming from bug reports.
After pushing it through to where the crashing ones didn't crash, and fixing bugs that seemed relevant, I took out all the tests that were Rebol2 only and moved tests that didn't actually ever pass and moved those to %pending-tests.r so that a "0" figure could be obtained and sought as a baseline, rather than the complex diffing scenario that existed before.
That alone being a lot of work, but certainly a more organized and focused test plan...with files for each category of test...would be of benefit.
Test #2 is building hostilefork.com. Outside of my mercenary interests of keeping that working, it's a reasonable exercise of some things the tests don't test for.
Test #3 is bootstrap...copying Ren-C around and using it as an R3-make.
Test #4 is getting through a build of the Red R3 port I did a couple years ago to produce a hello executable out of hello.red, running in <r3-legacy> mode.
I guess tests #5 and #6 being Shixin's qsort.r and gtk.r FFI demos, currently only half-working.
@kealist You would be welcome to contribute in any way to the tests. One thing that I'd like to see would be if the tests were adapted to be able to handle several different files... the monolith is not very approachable.
Another possibility would be to extend and adapt the Red test format
 
posted on December 14, 2015 by hostilefork

While billing itself a "language with no keywords" (in the sense of built-ins to the evaluator), Rebol had a hardcoded hack for the handling of a feature trying to offer something similar to what languages might consider a "this" pointer in objects. The feature was called SELF. As a hint of the hackishness, this is how SYM_SELF (the symbol ID for the word "self") was hardcoded into the

 
4:42 AM
@giuliolunati Why do you think the primes table starts at 251?? It is creating hash arrays of length 251 for arrays of length 2!
That list lives in %c-word.c so maybe what happened was it was thought that it would only be used for the word table, then Get_Hash_Prime() thought the primes table was a table of prime numbers that started from small ones...
 
4:57 AM
@kealist ....aaaand my asserts catch yet another logic error in the implementation. :-/ What's happening here is that the skip count is not obeyed by Hash_Block.
(not to be confused with the "skip" for the hash, which is an unfortunate naming issue here that should be resolved... that should be called the "nudge" or something to avoid confusion with /skip)
It can be shown as simply as intersect/skip [11] [11]. Really, the way it's supposed to work is only the first element is considered in a skip group for hashing. But what's going on is that when the hash is built over the block for fast testing, it is hashing every element and then overwriting if it was equal. So 1 gets hashed as a key, saying to later code "Hey I've got a 2-element sequence starting at the first position under the hash of 1".
Then it bumps by one unit (++) and hashes the second 1. It gets the same hash, looks in the bucket, finds the same value (1), and then overwrites in that bucket something later interpreted as "Hey, I've got a 2-element sequence starting at the second position under the hash of 1".
Of course it doesn't have a 2 element sequence... the block ends there. It now hash looks up 1 to [1...end], which is no good with a /skip 2... although I don't know what the precise error case should be when you use a bad skip.
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== []
 
>> intersect/skip [1 2 3] [1 2] 2
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [1 2]
 
>> intersect/skip [1 2 3] [1 2 3] 2
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [1 2 3]
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [1 2 3]
 
5:04 AM
>> intersect/skip [1 2] [1] 0
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-out-of-range.html
    *** ERROR
** Script error: value out of range: 0
** Where: intersect
** Near: intersect/skip [1 2] [1] 0
 
@kealist If you want a project, or maybe @giuliolunati or @MarkI, or maybe a little from each...the set operations are a reasonably contained one to hammer on. I really want to get the objects and SELF and those things sorted out. But basically this stuff should have a good clear definition and tests...it seems it never got that.
This particular bug can be addressed I think by adding a skip count to Hash_Block
I'll give it a shot and see.
>> intersect/skip [1 2 1 3] [1 4 1 5]
 
5:20 AM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-no-arg.html
    *** ERROR
** Script error: intersect is missing its size argument
** Where:
** Near: try load/all join %/users/try-REBOL/data/ system/script/args...
 
>> intersect/skip [1 2 1 3] [1 4 1 5] 2
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [1 2]
 
>> intersect/skip [1 2 1 3] [1 1 1 5] 2
 
Sometimes these skip refinements are somewhat confusing as to what behavior is ideal
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== []
 
5:23 AM
maybe most of my experience with them is with somewhat buggy behavior
 
There's a reason for that. :-)
I'm going to throw an error in on if you try and hash something at a skip length that it doesn't evenly divide to, for starters.
That will get some of the bugs under control and only annoy a small number of people.
More often than not, probably catching a bug in the caller.
Then take the skip length into account in the hash of full existing blocks, as opposed to doing it one element at a time which does take the length into account.
 
I, for one, would like to know if my records don't "line up" or whatnot
 
Good, there's one vote in favor of the change.
 
5:43 AM
what is unique/skip [1 1 1 2] 2 supposed to do?
just take the first key and result in [1 1]?
 
@kealist It's not clear if there's a defined "initial instance with key is picked as result" rule, but it's only comparing the first element I think.
e.g. I don't know if there's a guarantee that [1 2] isn't an equally valid answer.
red> unique/skip [1 1 1 2] 2
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [1 1 2]
 
huh
red>> unique/skip [1 1 1 2] 2
== [1 1]
Must have been fixed
Redbot using an old release version (on tryrebol)
 
@kealist Well, here is a quick modification... if you give that a shot see how it goes. If you just type in the things you try and the results, then that could get pasted directly into a section in %core-tests.r
 
@HostileFork when there is a crash in Ren-c, does it create a file in the current directory?
I got a empty intersect file after the crash
 
5:55 AM
@kealist That's bizarre. No, it shouldn't.
If you delete it and it crashes does it come back?
 
let me try
maybe I did something funny
nope, didn't do that again
not sure where it came from
 
 
1 hour later…
7:16 AM
Well, GET_VAR_INTO is deleted and that is good. Another artifact of the tyranny of the self hack gone...
 
7:44 AM
There is currently an inconsistency in the terminology in the code. A variable is LOCKed when it cannot be changed (e.g. protect 'foo/bar, bar in foo would be said to be "locked"). It is hidden when it cannot be reflected (e.g. protect/hide 'foo/bar, bar would be said to be "hidden").
However if you do ser: [a b c] protect ser, the flag on that series says it is PROTECTed. LOCK on a series is said to mean just that it's size cannot change; its data pointer stays fixed.
These could be shuffled various ways. The LOCK on SERIES could be called FIXED, then LOCK could be used to mean the same thing as for variables in the sense of "cannot be changed".
The reason I bring it up is because I can imagine these being things that leak to the user, because they probably will... foo: func [x [<lock> integer!]] [...] for a kind of "const" var (not so important for the body of the function, but maybe you want to pass it in the body to someone else and don't want them to change the variable out from under you...)
And perhaps same with objects, to hide fields from the outside. foo: object [x [<hide> float! integer! string!]] [x: "string to start with"]
So under this we'd be arguing that <protect> wouldn't be a good word for <lock> itself... because protect is a more general purpose function. But that makes me wonder if protect should be a dialect in charge of all matters protection-oriented... e.g. there's no unprotect.
 
 
1 hour later…
9:19 AM
@Ladislav In case you didn't notice, the native specs for natives in Ren-C live in the source itself, they are scanned out of the comments to generate the bootstrap files.
There you can see the adaptations to CASE, in alignment with what I believe you would think is the right behavior.
You can also see the LEGACY flags, which enable the old behaviors (currently enabled in debug builds only, and considered only as a transitional tool for those with R3-Alpha code they wish to migrate to Ren-C, piecewise it is possible to turn switches one at a time.)
Introduction on Rebol3 Porting Guide ("Ren-C" branch)
It was known that some changes were based on looking at hard foundational questions that would break existing code. Whenever an issue was under debate, a switch was left in. For instance at time ...
That CASE implementation is actually in need of some updating now to newer, better things...
 
10:11 AM
@HostileFork when size < MIN_DICT (== 8) no hashtable is created](github.com/metaeducation/ren-c/blob/master/src/core/…) and search is linear
 
@giuliolunati Maybe for hash tables, but the hashes created for the set operations don't use that heuristic. Also, that doesn't help much if it's 8 elements! It's more just the general idea, the prime table needs to have more entries.
Just seems to be a mistake/oversight
 
@HostileFork Another implementation is possible for hashtable, where length is 2^n, so no prime table is needed
 
The hash table implementation is not a fully core concern, at it needing to be that great... I am more concerned about the object model. And also the general interface questions (like whether something not being in the hash table is unset, or none, etc.)
I like it as unset, so you can write if set? val: :my-map/key [print [key "mapped to" val]] ... then if you know it's in the set, you can just write print [key "mapped to" my-map/val]... and you will get an error if it is not there.
It is helpful, I think, if the legal Rebol values you would expect it to be okay for people to use can be in the map. This is helpful in writing meta-code.
 
However, you can extend prime table: 2, 3, 7, 13, 31, 61, 127...
 
That is probably the easiest thing to do, yes.
@RebolBot
x: %foo
x/(<bar>)
 
10:27 AM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== %foo/bar
 
I don't see what the point of not forming that is, just for the sake of not forming things.
Regardless of the debatable utility, it's one of those "you're probably just making it confusing for people" situations when they think things look right...and later realize that they passed in a tag but it acted like it didn't have one. But how long until you figure out that's a tag and it's what is messing something else up?
 
 
4 hours later…
2:29 PM
@HostileFork If you really want to find out if a something is in a(n) object/map, you can always look in words-of/keys-of.
It might still be unset, and could even be protected (but not hidden, right?), but at least you'd know what's totally not even there (visible).
Keys-of could even return a hashed block so the search would be just as fast.
 
3:17 PM
posted on December 14, 2015 by Ladislav

[Comment] Where do you see a function in the o/b expression?

 
 
1 hour later…
4:28 PM
@HostileFork Because it is highly unlikely that you want angles in your file names.
>> x: %foo x/(form <bar>)
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== %foo/%3Cbar%3E
 
If that were the default for tags in file-paths, many people would complain loudly.
Same would go for urls as well, for the same reason.
@Ladislav Awesome to see you back!
 
Hi
 
We haven't met, of course, but I have slightly heard of you :)
I think join has the tag/string thing wrong:
>> join "foo" [<bar>]
 
4:44 PM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== "foo<bar>"
 
That's fine. But:
>> join <foo> [<bar>]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== <foo<bar>>
 
Wouldn't it be nicer if that was:
>> join <foo> [to string! <bar>]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== <foobar>
 
Then again, maybe I'm misunderstanding nested tags. I freely admit it's a misunderstandable concept :)
 
5:46 PM
posted on December 14, 2015 by RomeroMalaquias

Avoiding conditional directives that split up statements by RomeroMalaquias

 
6:05 PM
@Ladislav, hi - it's good to see you back around here. Do you think you'll want to join @HostileFork a hand with improving Rebol? I know that some people see what HF's doing as changing things just for change's sake, but I know how much thought he puts into all the details so I tend not to see what he does as frivolous. From what I've seen, you're equally thoughtful and meticulous.
 
 
4 hours later…
10:31 PM
posted on December 15, 2015 by fork

[Comment] (Note: While attention to the tickets is great, the CC import data has been completed; that means it would take another scrape and process if this database grows. It would be preferable if we can get together, finish the GitHub import, and work there.) Yes, I think the problem that was actually manifesting here that I saw was that the function dispatch did not like "1" being the *la

 
@Ladislav Indeed, would be great to have you get back involved. The thing I point out in my CC comment is that we're looking to transition away from CureCode. It's been tough because earl has disappeared and one of our big pushes was to have the tickets imported under GitHub's rebol account, and he's the only one with privileges to do so.
Since he's been a long time out of the communication loop, and especially if you're ready to start going through issues and figuring them out, we need to go ahead without him...and will do so as soon as @johnk is ready.
 
G'eve everyone. Long time no see.
What's new :) ?
 
@earl Speak of the @earl!
Well there you are.
 
@HostileFork As it so happens, I'm about to reappear. A bit.
 
@earl Lots of new things. Solved definitional returns. Y'know, the usual.
 
10:43 PM
Let me give a bit to find my way around.
@HostileFork Cool. (Will have to read that later.)
 
Ren-C was beating Rebolsource a bit in performance, though a recent regression while doing something else seems to have messed it up, so I'll have to go back and see why. Likely some accident because nothing willfully performance killing has been introduced since.
But there are a number of new tricks in the box
 
A noes. Performance piggying.
 
It got kind of interesting actually.
 
At least with automated performance regression testing in place?
You know. Like the cool kids do. arewefastyet.com
And pros too!
 
It would be nice if there was. And in fact, we should be getting the test suite in run automatically.
It is now intended to be at 0 bugs, modulo our new source rules checker
Which hasn't had all its "lines less than 80 columns" checks and such met yet
 
10:46 PM
Zero bugs. Really?
 
Er, zero test failures
 
Lots of progress then. Good.
Really?
 
Tests that were not ever met are in "pending-tests.r" to be integrated when they pass
 
Ah. So you kicked out all the failures :)
Fair enough.
 
Source conversion done
 
10:47 PM
@HostileFork Got @johnk's pings about the CC import. So I guess I'll treat that with priority.
 
Sounds good as Ladislav has shown up and is asking questions and closing tickets
 
But one thing to note: as far as I could tell, the export from CC is still done using my exporter.
Which is fully incremental.
So CC changes do no harm at all.
 
Didn't know it was incremental
@earl The movement of SELF to definitional SELF has started, meaning the end of "selfish vs. selfless" frames and the binding hack. FRAME! as a REB_XXX type in Rebol are now gone, objects and ports and errors and such store a full value instance of themselves in their [0] slot such that their REBVAL may be fully reconstituted from a "frame". END! is gone, now a clever low header bit.
 
@MarkI Right. Known bug, unfortunately: issue.cc/r3/854 ("unfortunately", because long-standing).
 
Conditional falsehood is stored as a header bit. Logic false and none set this "I am false" bit to true, everything else leaves it clear. There is no "payload" for a LOGIC!, only a header.
(It actually wouldn't be hard to switch that around to "I am true" and probably will do so, but at the time it seemed like worrying with the bit would be easier for the false case..the opposite is probably true.)
(Not that it matters, really, just maybe a little clearer for readability.)
Everything that doesn't have a payload goes ahead and saves the filename, line, and "tick count" of which Do operation created it in the payload in the debug build, noting the point of SET_XXX(). This means it's easy to tell where a TRASH, UNSET, NONE, or LOGIC came from.
 
11:00 PM
posted on December 15, 2015 by abolka

[Comment] Thanks for catching my sloppiness, Ladislav. I originally tried to reproduce this with a simplified version matching my understanding of what @fork said in the summary and could successfully reproduce it. After that, I only superficially checked if @fork's code roughly looked like what I thought to be the case and fell victim to confirmation bias. Even more, trying to reproduce again

 
@HostileFork The general Q behind this, if string-like things should rather fall back to a "mold-like" representation when joined together, or a "spelling-like" representation.
>> to-string <bar>
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== "bar"
 
>> mold <bar>
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== "<bar>"
 
Whatever we choose, we should strive to be a bit more consistent about it.
 
11:02 PM
@earl In my canon, the answer is that mold and to-string are synonyms, and that the exception case of to-string of a binary be done with FORM, in that FORM-of-BINARY! interprets that binary as UTF8 input.
 
MOLD/all, MOLD, FORM, TO-STRING
And possibly more.
 
In my canon, MOLD is always /ALL
And a synonym for TO-STRING, which like TO-INTEGER, is allowed refinements.
Datatype Behavior on Rebol3 Porting Guide ("Ren-C" branch)
> Legacy switch: system/options/forever-64-bit-ints: true # Rebol2 >> to-integer #{FF} == 255 >> to-integer #{FFFFFFFF} == -1 # R3-Alpha >> to-integer #{FF} == 255 >>
✍ 3 comments
 
@earl good to see you back
 
@johnk Thanks :)
Linear probing is a scheme in computer programming for resolving hash collisions of values of hash functions by sequentially searching the hash table for a free location. == Algorithm == Linear probing is accomplished using two values - one as a starting value and one as an interval between successive values in modular arithmetic. The second value, which is the same for all keys and known as the stepsize, is repeatedly added to the starting value until a free space is found, or the entire table is traversed. (In order to traverse the entire table the stepsize should be relatively prime to...
 
A lot of things hash to 0 and the hashing is not lined up with any particular equality operator
 
11:07 PM
^^ That's the implementation approach Rebol is (trying) to use for the hash table. (cc/@giuliolunati, @HostileFork). @giuliolunati's analysis is spot on, I think.
 
Yup, looks right. I figured it was something like that, I just didn't immediately see where the proof was.
 
It can be deceiving if one hasn't heard of that approach before.
It's somewhat famous in some circles, where it is known to be Donald Knuth's "first" formal analysis of an algorithm.
 
I've seen similar things, though not a hash table implemented using it.
 
@johnk Do we have some backchannel to chat? Jabber? Skype? Something?
 
"I haven't seen background graphics and arrows like that since... 1997..."
 
11:30 PM
@earl I'm at work at the moment. I'll send you a skype address, but I'll be on my mobile only
 
@johnk No hurries.
I'm still very busy, but connectivity is good again. Will have slightly more time in two days.
I'm looking into the basic repository setup as we speak. But I guess getting it to work properly for @RebolBot may need some trial and error :)
@johnk Repository is set up, you and @RebolBot should be good to work with it: github.com/rebol/rebol-issues
So whenever you find some leisure time, please have a look if that works. If not, please drop me an email. I'll be around here again on Thu/Fri.
No worries about "mis-imports" or stuff like that, for now. We can always delete the repo and start afresh.
@johnk And just to be sure: please run incremental CC fetches every now and then (assuming you still use my fetcher), to be sure to pick up any spurious CC changes.
Anyone talked to Nenad yet about switching the Rebol 3 CureCode to read-only and/or adding some forwarding links or even re-directing?
 
11:47 PM
@earl I think read-only with a header with a link to the new location up top would be ideal for as long as it is left running; if the overhead of running the CC server is not something he does for other reasons then just a forwarding rule would be fine.
Preserving it just as a cache of history / link to the past, double-check on the data if it gets spammed, for the impression of "hey this has actually been around a while" vs. showing up overnight on GitHub, etc.
 
There's the code. Not sure if there's a read-only option and a "notice" facility already. If not, it'd probably help to provide that functionality.
Otherwise it'd still be doable through external means.
 
Hey, look, it's Rebol PHP. :-)
 
I could host a static HTML dump, for example. But that'd still need some proxying/redirection for the curecode.org URLs to keep working.
 
Well if it's any indication, Ladislav's recent activity of 4 comments is the only activity since you've been away.
I imagine not taking new accounts would effectively make it read only.
So really, a line in the RSP code that checked to see if it was the rebol3 DB and if so put an info box at the top using the issue # in the link would probably be enough if the CC server will be left up for other reasons, e.g. any personal projects he still tracks in CureCode.
If Rebol is the last CureCode project of interest then that's different I guess
One less headache to shutter it. But I'd imagine he'd have designs on a Red-CureCode someday, likely keeping the domain.
 
Someone will have to talk to Nenad :)
 
11:58 PM
I vote @johnk :-)
 
So, to do some fake coding as well, I think I fixed the regression in Ren-C based on the misunderstanding in the cc#2226 ticket Ladislav pointed out.
Good to see the tabs gone, and the native headers in place :)
 
Yes, very good
 

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