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12:01 AM
@ShixinZeng You'd expressed concerns about the global used by the raise/panic trick. Since you haven't chimed in since I've defended the general technique a few times, I'll just make my final statements on it.
One is that having a place to inject a macro is good because it's a chance to snapshot the __FILE__ and __LINE__ without having to make every error generator itself a macro. So beyond the readability benefits of a "keyword" to draw attention to the frequent-and-atypical "function longjmps (or quits)", there's that too.
Although the error in the debug build doesn't currently put the file and line number in the object, that's something I'd like it to do so you can report where an error originated in the C code from Rebol.
The other point I'll reiterate is that if we need to eliminate global state, I think it's easy enough to just turn panic XXX back into PanicXXX(), because there just aren't that many of them. So panic wouldn't use the error machinery at all, and there'd be no need for conditional behavior... all errors would assume they were raising.
@Brett Maybe you have passion about breaks and continues in whiles. :-)
 
@HostileFork Not a big passion, but just thinking about that at the moment.
Interesting question.
 
I sort of prefer to think of the break in the condition as still being part of the body of whatever the loop is running in.
 
@HostileFork I think that's probably right.
 
The main point on that is if you don't think of it that way, you have to pick a behavior for CONTINUE and either behavior seems plausible.
So it eliminates what seems like a "random" decision.
 
I have a while loop in some code at the moment which does some processing in in the condition in readyness for the actual test.
 
12:12 AM
If the condition needs to break it already has a way to do it...evaluate to false.
 
The other way, doesn't feel right in any sense.
 
If it needs to continue to the body it already has a way to do it...evaluate to true
 
@HostileFork Precisely.
No sense duplicating that.
 
If it needs to re-run itself conditionally it has a way to do it...become a loop itself
I guess that's a pretty solid argument right there.
 
An alternative would be make break and continue meaningless in the condition. Do we lose something?
 
12:16 AM
An opportunity on each loop cycle to break or continue out of any enclosing loops.
Having statements act as no-ops isn't good in my view, they should at least error
 
Which if you wanted it would require setting a variable and testing outside. So it adds value.
 
I guess Rebol tends to go on the side that if there is a reasonable interpretation of something to do it, vs. error. It's kind of an assembly-ish mentality.
 
Trying to be expressive.
Or perhaps more power to your expressions.
It becomes simple to rembember the rule, break and continue relate to the loop block only.
 
12:36 AM
Looks good.
@HostileFork Added labels, so that it would show up in an appropriate search.
 
Yip.
@Brett Here's another one. How about the infix bitwise math versions of things be AND*, OR+, XOR-, and NOT~ (maybe?) That's their mathy counterparts. Then the non-symbol'd ones can be logic.
The NOT is the one I'm iffy on there.
In general I have wondered if tilde is one of those characters we might want to omit from naturals, along with &. It doesn't look that good in words, and may have higher calling.
One problem is that infix AND, OR, XOR etc. cannot be short-circuited boolean evaluators in Rebol.
They will evaluate both arguments and then run, and that is just how it works. If you want short circuit you'll need to use ALL, ANY, and (what I propose to be) ONE
if one [true false false] [print "this runs"]
if one [true true false] [print "this doesn't"]
Perhaps ONE could be a specialization of EXACTLY.
 
@HostileFork I have no strong opinion as I do not do this much. I like that they are specifically named, so I could look them up and learn about them if I'm doing bitwise operations. As for Not~, I tend not to use ~ in a name for a word, but if I did it would probably relate to parse pattern matching. Looking at the web reference NOT_ springs to mind as an alternative.
Even though it does not line up with a normal operator.
 
exactly 2 [
    (print "runs" true)
    (print "runs" true)
    (print "runs but causes false return, more than 2" true)
    (print "doesn't run, short circuit" true)
]
 
@HostileFork One and Exactly are interesting, but I'm struggling to think where I could have used them.
 
12:52 AM
It's rare to use XOR logic in general, hard to say when you would do something when one thing or the other is true, but not if both. Usually an error condition.
unless a xor b [print "Either a or b must be set (but not both)"]
 
Possibly validating a dialect
 
one [option1 option2 option3]
 
Radio button
 
I do like AND*, OR+, and XOR- ... and NOT doesn't really need a name because it's not infix, I guess. So you only use the prefix form.
Prefix forms of AND, OR, and XOR are: INTERSECT, UNION, DIFFERENCE
Bitwise NOT is COMPLEMENT
It seems to tie up that puzzle pretty nicely if you ask me.
Prefix forms of logical infix are AND?, OR?, and XOR?
How's that for tidy?
 
@HostileFork As in [this AND? that] ?
 
12:58 AM
>> print [{"Greetings} reverse {tw3r@} {... it's the [Rebol and Red] room."}]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
"Greetings @r3wt ... it's the [Rebol and Red] room."
 
what manner of sorcery is this!
3
 
red> print ["we has the bots: stackapps.com/questions/3960/…
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
we has the bots: stackapps.com/questions/3960/…
 
@Brett Prefix. and? this that. The AND logic infix would just be normal and, if bitwise becomes AND*.
@r3wt Red overview if you haven't heard of it. (textier page here: red-lang.org/p/contributions.html )
@pekr As Red has moved to Gitter fully, they should take the link to the separate Red SO chat page off the "contributions" page.
 
1:03 AM
@HostileFork Seems like a neat package.
 
@Brett I'd like to see CC#1879 go ahead.
 
1:35 AM
@HostileFork And and Or would be useful.
 
@Brett Sometimes it's the more literate thing to say, but one has to enter it knowing that you don't have short-circuit evaluation.
The hard part in Rebol is that if your expressions are complex you basically need parentheses, at which point you've got two extra blocks, at which point an ALL or ANY would be better at just one extra block.
 
Yep.
 
But in Rebol's bean-counting philosophy, one would think that a good working AND plus an OR would be desirable for the micro-optimizers. No block at all.
One place it would be good for...but can't be used for yet...is testing refinements.
And my move is to make refinements evaluate to their word if true. Fairly meta, but think about this one, as I've liked to point out:
>> source collect
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
collect: make function! [[
    {Evaluates a block, storing values via KEEP function, and returns block of collected values.}
    body [block!] "Block to evaluate"
    /into {Insert into a buffer instead (returns position after insert)}
    output [series!] "The buffer series (modified)"
][
    unless output [output: make block! 16]
    do func [keep] body func [value [any-type!] /only] [
        output: apply :insert [output :value none none only]
        :value
 
@Brett Now imagine if the line assigning output were instead output: insert/:only :value. How bout that?
NONE! would be ignored by path evaluations as a no-op, and if something evaluates to a WORD then it can be used as that refinement. Then make refinements equivalent to the word.
 
1:42 AM
@HostileFork Handling refinements has always been awkward.
I need to get my brain around your idea.
 
Today the refinement is either NONE! or a LOGIC! true
 
But it sound like it has merit.
 
Based on whether the callsite invoked it.
This simply changes it so that the refinement is either NONE! or a WORD! of the name of the refinement itself.
 
Ok that sounds good.
 
Path dispatch is being beefed up in general to be smarter, and the idea that you can do things like apo: :append/only and get specializations. So effectively, each step of a path evaluation can be suspended as a product you could store in a variable.
(under the hood it would be inefficient if there weren't "tricks" used to avoid creating wasteful intermediates most of the time... so append/only/dup doesn't necessarily create a function object "append/only" and then create another refined object from that for "append/only/dup", with the need to GC and manage those intermediate objects.)
You'd only pay for actual intermediate objects if they "escape the evaluation", as in the apo: :append/only case. There's no way around making a new function for that.
Anyway, not really required for this feature, of for instance using get-words or paren calculations to make a refinement (instead of being literal)
 
1:49 AM
I guess proof might be in the pudding for this...
(no idea where that expression comes from)
But refinements have always been awkward so making them work would be great.
 
There is a second step in making APPLY nearly obsolete.
That is to make it so that passing a refinement argument as none!, in the general case, un-asks for the refinement.
append/dup [a] [b] if condition [3]
 
Seems fine to me.
And your example shows it can be more powerful.
 
You'd get an error if it takes more than one argument to a refinement and there's a none but not all of them are.
So they must all be none, or none of them can be.
 
Oh hang on. Where is the 3 going there.
 
dup's argument.
 
1:54 AM
Ok I misunderstood.
 
If condition is conditionally false, the IF returns a NONE! and it is effectively append [a] [b]. If condition is conditionally true, the IF returns 3 and it is effectively append/dup [a] [b] 3
 
@HostileFork Isn't it reasonable to have an argument to a refinement that is none!
 
As reasonable as having an argument be an UNSET!. So it's reasonable to make it that you can add it as an explicit type.
If you do then you don't get the nice invariant. Because a lot of code would like to use its refinement arguments and if they are not none, assume the refinement was not provided.
I'd suggest discouraging it in the same way taking unsets is discouraged by being off the default.
 
Hmm. I did have some code somewhere where passing none as a refinement argument was meaningful. Can't remember where though.
 
The cases I've used it for were generally to facilitate the pattern above. ("none" means "nevermind the refinement")
 
1:58 AM
But maybe if we had your better refinement scheme it wouldn't be required.
It might have been to override a default behaviour.
Explicity saying I don't want this rather than naming a refinement /not-this
 
FALSE is another option for that, if it's not in-band.
 
If I come across it, I'll bring it up.
 
The combination of the two changes above really gives a good thrashing to APPLY.
 
No false was meaningful too, in my particular problem.
 
@Brett We have that issue with /WAIT on CALL right now, where we want it as the default but don't have a good name for no wait besides /NO-WAIT really
Well, not the same issue, in that FALSE isn't meaningful.
But we don't want it to be /WAIT with TRUE or FALSE really.
 
2:03 AM
Mmm.
Is there another meaning for a wait refinement that could be useful? Call/wait ... 00:01:00, call/wait ... off?
Don't see a way around this where English suggests one direction and the needs of refinements perhaps another.
 
With the NONE control, it's nice to be able to have a way of saying one-way-or-another or default.
yes/no is the more natural expression. I've been thinking that LOGIC! should use bits to preserve which form it is, so that when you print it out it remembers.
off: make logic! [format: 'off] ;-- preserves "I'm formatted as OFF" bit in value header.
You'd lose it any time you pass through a medium that doesn't keep it. I guess people might not like the canonization of getting a LOGIC! and having it sometimes print as TRUE and other times print as OFF.
 
It's a nice idea. Without something like that there's not a lot of point supporting ON/OFF.
 
If you had a non-off formatted thing, and you said all [on true] you'd get TRUE. I'm sure many routines aren't designed to honor it.
true and on => true? on?
 
True would be more general.
 
Similar questions exist for character codes, which you can specify via number or by the character itself. It could preserve memory of that.
 
2:15 AM
But an app could coerce to what it wanted.
@HostileFork Would provide less gap between other languages and Rebol.
When wanting to translate/port.
 
There are certainly enough bits in the values to use for purposes of formatting. The only thing preserved at the moment is that values remember newline-ness
 
@HostileFork Oh it's on the value? Always wondered about that.
 
Yup.
I think various operations clear it when you pick it out and insert it elsewhere.
 
Ugh.
I always thought it was a property of the block slot. Silly me...
 
Well, mechanically speaking, a value instance always lives in a block.
The same string, referenced in two values in two blocks, has an opportunity to have different formatting bits in each block.
So "value" here means "Rebol value", e.g. the implementation unit of a cell.
 
2:21 AM
Ok.
 
We always have to speak about a value distinctly from its underlying series, with the unfortunate terminology problem that SERIES! are values that are pointers to the underlying series plus position.
x: next "foo" takes a Rebol value that points to the series "foo" at its head, passes that to a function next which returns a Rebol value pointing to the same series one character later, stored into whatever context x points to in a value sized cell there.
 
The terminology issue presents itself at the Rebol level too.
 
That's three Rebol values at play.
Then there are the two other values... the set-word! x: value and the next word! value.
We've been looking for a term for the "underlying series"
 
Yeah. Makes rebol interesting :)
 
For a time I was suggesting SERIES! should be POSITION!
 
2:25 AM
No longer?
 
I thought about it for a while and in the end decided that really, that's not much help, since you'd wind up having to make BLOCK-POSITION! etc. for the types you actually use.
Yeah, it's not enough of a win, you'd have to change too much. The thing that has to change is the underlying thing.
earl and Ladislav wanted to call it the "payload", I'm opposed to that one.
Could be a "stream". :-/
sequence isn't good in terms of any meaningful discernment from series.
We've run through a lot of words but there's always time for more, it takes a long time for these things to settle out.
Calling it a series definitely is a big conceptual tax, though.
Both in the implementation code and out.
 
Yet series is close.
as an abstract description
The clash of contexts...
 
"Rebol values have enough room to carry an index, as well as the data into which they are indexing. So every time you pass a series value around, you're passing a position too."
 
Mmm. Data...
Data, Pointer, Reference.
All good heavily loaded terms.
In my rebol programming I usually think of Reference.
 
Renaming SERIES! to try and be REFERENCE! or POSITION! or ITERATOR! all has the problem of that being longer and changing the way it has been, as well as not helping any with BLOCK! and STRING! and everything else.
 
2:52 AM
@Brett If you noticed earl's comment, he said that he was in favor of the lighter non-asterisk'd form of comments, and that he also thought it would be better to come up with a lighter spec format than going with the indented form from natives.r
//
//  foo: native!
//  {Description here}
//  arg1 [type! type!] {arg description}
//  ...
//
I'm not sure what's best, and the spacing issues become tied in with the "no blank lines until ordinary comments begin" idea. Without tabs it looks cramped. :-/
 
3:23 AM
@HostileFork The function I coded (though not incorporated in the tool yet), was instead "load rebol values until you hit two newlines or end of string". Where a value could be a multi-line block as long as it has the begin and end square brackets.
 
@rgchris @Brett The underscore.js page is very clean and familiar, and its list is one that indicates things that Rebol should have covered.
@Brett Right, two newlines when all values are closed.
 
@HostileFork Yep. So in theory one could call the function multiple times while a dialect was not finished.
 
some_.some(list, [predicate], [context]) Alias: any
Returns true if any of the values in the list pass the predicate truth test. Short-circuits and stops traversing the list if a true element is found.
I wonder if SOME should be a synonym in DO for ANY as well. :-/
I suppose the subtlety would be that ANY would evaluate things in short circuit when you hit false, but always return true, even on []
any [(print "A" true) (print "B" false) (print "C" true)] => prints A, B, == true
any [(print "A" false) (print "B" false) (print "C" true)] => prints A, == true

some [(print "A" true) (print "B" false) (print "C" true)] => prints A, B, == true
some [(print "A" false) (print "B" false) (print "C" true)] => prints A, == false
That actually isn't as useless as it looks.
In PARSE, the ALL is implicitly how a block is interpreted, unless you specify otherwise.
That's something that would best be introduced in a two step process (deprecate ANY replace to SOME, wait for existing uses of ANY to die out, introduce ANY later)
Seems it couldn't hurt in PARSE to allow ALL if you felt it expressed your intention more clearly. :-/
Well, actually ALL would mean in Parse's case "rule matches all the way to the end", I guess.
[all rule] => [some rule end]
parse "aaaa" [all "a" (print "The input was all a")]
You're counting different things, but the question of whether any means "zero or more" or "one or more" should be consistent.
In one case you're counting the results of expressions that are conditionally true, in the other you're counting number of times a rule matches against input.
 
4:33 AM
@rgchris Hate to be pushing back on ideas, but we're trying to do things right... so every seems like it might be useful for testing a predicate on things. every x [1 3 5] [odd? x]
>> map-each x [1 2 3] [print "map each with unset... substitute for FILTER?"]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
map each with unset... substitute for FILTER?
map each with unset... substitute for FILTER?
map each with unset... substitute for FILTER?
== []
 
I don't know it would be the worst idea to just borrow from underscore. filter [1 2 5 8] [odd? x] => [1 5]. It seems that Rebol's baseline set of operations and underscore's are pretty similar.
I wonder about the idea of using _ as the name for lib. Would look pretty weird. _/filter [1 2 5 8] [odd? x]
It might be worth pushing on that interpretation of /filter for that, a path headed by NONE! I dunno.
 
5:41 AM
Hm, I missed the open PR on multi-line. Sorry @earl, don't know why I didn't see it... or perhaps I did (and you said something like wait to merge it?) I don't remember. I will merge it now either way.
 
5:51 AM
@HostileFork It's very close to remove-each.
 
Close but non-mutating and maybe the way more people think.
 
rebol2> remove-each x [1 2 5 8][even? x]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [1 5]
 
At least I read it as non-mutating (would have to scroll up and reopen the link), maybe it does change it. Point wasn't so much about the specifics, just "there's a list, seems each thing should have an answer"
 
@HostileFork More like:
>> collect [foreach x [1 2 5 8][if odd? x [keep x]]]
 
5:53 AM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [1 5]
 
collect won't work with a function, however.
But it is important to remember that collect is there, and to push on ways of using it and making sure it holds up. The idea of being able to pass the "keeper" around is neat.
 
>> keeper: take foo: collect [keep :keep] keeper <hello> foo
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-not-defined.html
    *** ERROR
** Script error: output word is not bound to a context
** Where: apply keeper
** Near: apply :insert [output :value none none only] :value
 
Hm...
rebol2> keeper: take foo: collect [keep :keep] keeper <hello> foo
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [<hello>]
 
5:58 AM
Hmm.
Need closure?
 
6:11 AM
>> source collect
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
collect: make function! [[
    {Evaluates a block, storing values via KEEP function, and returns block of collected values.}
    body [block!] "Block to evaluate"
    /into {Insert into a buffer instead (returns position after insert)}
    output [series!] "The buffer series (modified)"
][
    unless output [output: make block! 16]
    do func [keep] body func [value [any-type!] /only] [
        output: apply :insert [output :value none none only]
        :value
 
@rgchris Yup.
Just goes to show that really, it's a misguided decision to have the function semantics, and especially as a default.
My idea of marking functions with <lite> seems like a good way to request it, if it continues to exist.
<broken> seems a bit heavy-handed for the name, but I'd accept that too. :-)
Working on things like the optimization of that is the interesting stuff, sad it takes so long to get to the interesting stuff by having due diligence on everything else.
But if you don't have a reasonably locked down system with no leaks or fiddly exceptions and "oh I guess it works in most cases but not that..." then you can't do the best kinds of optimizations.
 
 
1 hour later…
7:36 AM
>> a: [ 1 2 3]
forall a [ remove a ]
probe head a
hmm :(
 
@GrahamChiu If that was a RebolBot instruction, it's quoted... one too many > ?
 
>> a: [ 1 2 3 ]
 
Also multiline input now requires the @RebolBot syntax
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [1 2 3]
 
@HostileFork that's sad
just check the last line for >> and that will be pasted output
 
7:38 AM
I don't paste a >> terminal as pasted output.
 
@RebolBot
a: [ 1 2 3]
forall a [ remove a ]
probe head a
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
[2]
== [2]
 
If you want the multiline feature for rebol> that would be all right.
 
rebol2> a: [ 1 2 3 ] forall a [ remove a] probe head a
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
[2]
== [2]
 
7:39 AM
@rebolbot
a: [ 1 2 3 ]
forall [ remove a a: skip a - 1 ]
probe head a
 
forall's implementation advances wherever it is when the loop is continued
It doesn't have additional state beyond the variable you have.
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-expect-arg.html
    *** ERROR
** Script error: forall does not allow block! for its 'word argument
** Where:
** Near: try load/all join %/users/try-REBOL/data/ system/script/args...
 
A better name might be for-next
while/after [not tail? a: next a] [stuff]
There's a shortcut for not tail? or not empty?... hm what is it?
 
7:58 AM
@HostileFork multiline works using rebol3> and maybe rebol>
 
@johnk rebol can be a synonym for rebol3...
 
I changed the parse rule so that if the line starts with ">> " AND contains newlines then ignore
@HostileFork yes, it could (should) be but it is currently not.
Sadly I only have a couple of minutes to visit, but I am looking forward to testing rebolbot with Ren/C to see if the memory leak has gone (and the line handling changes). So much fun stuff and so little time
Doorbell ... ttyl
 
>> forall a: split "hello sailor" space [ print a/1]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-expect-arg.html
    *** ERROR
** Script error: forall does not allow set-word! for its 'word argument
** Where:
** Near: try load/all join %/users/try-REBOL/data/ system/script/args...
 
any reason why forall can't take a set-word?
 
8:04 AM
@GrahamChiu It needs to know the name of the variable to set through the loop. If you want an expression there, it needs to be parenthesized, and it would have to be able to give it a WORD!
It's a quoted slot, but if you give it parentheses and the parens eval to a WORD! it should be able to use that just as well.
(Assuming the word looks up to a series)
>> forall (lb: split "soy capitan, soy capitan" space quote lb) [print lb/1]
@RebolBot delete
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
soy
capitan,
soy
capitan
 
@GrahamChiu ^-- You can do that, because of the trick that some quoting things will still eval get-words, get-paths, and parens instead of giving you an error on them as literally incorrect for what they want. It evaluates and then looks at the result.
>> help intersect
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
USAGE:
    INTERSECT set1 set2 /case /skip size

DESCRIPTION:
    Returns the intersection of two data sets.
    INTERSECT is a native value.

ARGUMENTS:
    set1 -- first set (block! string! binary! bitset! typeset!)
    set2 -- second set (block! string! binary! bitset! typeset!)

REFINEMENTS:
    /case -- Uses case-sensitive comparison
    /skip -- Treat the series as records of fixed size
        size (integer!)
 
>> help and
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
USAGE:
    value1 and value2

DESCRIPTION:
    Returns the first value ANDed with the second.
    AND is an op value.

ARGUMENTS:
    value1 (logic! integer! char! tuple! binary! bitset! typeset! datatype!)
    value2 (logic! integer! char! tuple! binary! bitset! typeset! datatype!)
 
8:13 AM
The proposal on the table is to unify INTERSECT and AND's implementations so they're really just one operation. Then AND is the convenience interface for it that is infix.
However INTERSECT has refinements.
Should you be able to say str1 and*/case str2?
What should happen if you use /CASE or /SKIP on types that don't support it, like INTEGER!? Error?
Should AND* back off, and not offer the refinements...but still be able to be used on data sets?
 
8:58 AM
rebol> do http://reb4.me/r3/altwebform
to-webform reduce [ 'user[email] 1 ]
@rgchris how does one use to-webform where the word is not a legal rebol word?
 
9:38 AM
err/arg2/headers/set-cookie is a string! isn't it?
 
Poor Rebmu gets hit by changes. I? => IO now for INDEX-OF... O? => OO for OFFSET-OF. But what about IF/ONLY? Now IFO instead of IO. Alas.
It probably can't do that. TO would be TYPE-OF, then. I guess the "-of" has to be implicit.
IX for index-of and OS for offset-of I guess. OF as a word is possible to be used for something else.
 
Some of this code I write is not very satisfactory
@Cyphre Hi Richard
 
Hello there @Cyphre... long time no see. Lots of news and things in Ren/C.
 
Hello guys, just quickly checking in. Hoping Rebol/Red are still alive :)
 
Sort of...
Multiline console just integrated into Ren/C branch, FWIW.
 
9:51 AM
cool, got some info from Rebolek about the changes. I hope I'll get some time for "Reboling" again later this year.
 
@Cyphre is r3/droid dead?
data: collect [
	foreach [var val] reduce ["user[email]" user "user[password]" pass "user[remember_me]" "0"][
		keep rejoin [var "=" url-encode val "&"]
	]
]

data: rejoin data
take/last data
Is there a more elegant way to write this?
 
@GrahamChiu From what I know Saphirion put R3 developement on hold but things may have change...
 
@Cyphre oh .. okay
Who are you working for at present?
Gaming company? :)
 
Sort of :) I still have plans with R3/Red though so let's see.
Need to leave, see you later guys and keep Reboling!
 
later
 
9:58 AM
@Cyphre - in case you don't know, Red switched to more Altme like Gitter site. You can join us here - gitter.im/red/red
 
10:09 AM
@rgchris You'll be happy to know that since I've learned more about Rebol since the days of Rebmu formulation, I know that there's no point in having a separate function creator for closure (because closure semantics are the only ones Rebmu will want, and probably all of Rebol3 eventually). Hence CL for closure is freed up and given to CoLlect instead of CT. :-)
 
@HostileFork - not having enough of free time to watch all of the developments. Maybe once per month or two, you could create a new summary of changes, like you did initially with the Ren/C?
I refer to your August Rebolforum post ...
 
@pekr It's about time for an announcement I guess, I was thinking perhaps @sqlab might want to announce the multi-line console as the person who kicked all that off. So perhaps I would post a summary in response of the other things.
Someone can let him know that I merged it, I was waiting on earl for something (I thought).
I wonder what OF could be used for in the language.
 
If we have ren-garden, do we need any other versions :) ?
@HostileFork if someone posts in the altme announce channel, he'll see it
I don't know why we haven't got our altme client to post things as well for us via rebolbot
 
10:32 AM
@HostileFork I think there are still some weak spots.
 
@sqlab Well, he said he was going to be busy for a while, so let's find the weak spots and patch them up... no better way than to get test feedback. There's the "build it to use it" barrier still going, so people should expect to be "participating"...
Probably more likely to have a blocking problem to report that isn't related to the console anyway.
But, trying to fix things as they are found.
@rgchris And moving COLLECT to CL from CT means CATCH can be CT instead of CC. Improvements all around. :-)
Trying to solve one of the world's weirdest multivariable constrained writing exercises ever. :-/
 
11:02 AM
Q words are weird in Rebmu, because all words are QU words... QUOTE, QUIT... So does that mean QU doesn't get used? :-/ Alas, English!
 
11:14 AM
For completeness with AND?, OR?, XOR?, I guess there should be a NOT? as well...though as there's no "infix" not then it would be a synonym for NOT.
 
@HostileFork about "custom objects": you think we can establish that /spec is a "reserved" word in objects?
 
@giuliolunati It is my goal that /foo be a path with a NONE! and a WORD!, and /2/bar be a path with a NONE! INTEGER! WORD!. So bear that in mind.
e.g. "refinements" do not exist
To me, the existence of a spec is expressly to avoid reserved words in the body.
 
11:36 AM
@HostileFork I agree, but then we need a different C struct for objects (now are frames)
 
@giuliolunati I've thought about what it would take to eliminate the FRAME! type, and also about some other issues (like how to make a function have a SELF, and be able to get that back for binding)
@RebolBot
foo: function [x] [
    print bind? 'x
]

foo 10
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
true
 
"true" isn't a very useful answer, and it would seem you should be able to get something back which you could use for binding purposes.
 
11:52 AM
@HostileFork maybe we can use the extra union field of REBSER to store object spec
 
@giuliolunati There is space for the spec in the current object FRAME! value in that first slot, if you noticed (Reb_Frame)
Hm. Rebol could have an extremely broken GOTO if it wanted one. :-) There could be a value type which means "here" and evaluates to whatever series position it is at. label: ~here~ (or whatever). It could mark itself with an ID#. Then you could goto label. To make it maybe slightly less broken... if it went to that series at that position and found that marker, it could succeed... or fail if that marker wasn't there.
A source marker abstraction is useful in general, think of __FILE__ and __LINE__.
How many people ever really want to create names with vertical|pipe in them. :-/ Vertical pipe is another one of those characters that seems to have one purpose that it has wound up used for, alternates in parse... and then it has || for or, which it's terrible for so that needs to die (as OR is two characters and legible).
Other than that vertical pipe seems like this big waste.
It seems vertical bar might have some kind of purpose. [some |new| type marker?]
If it looks good anywhere, it's on the ends of words like that.
 
12:34 PM
@Brett @rgchris and others who care about such things: TRUE? right now doesn't mean is-a-logic-and-is-true. It just means "would you take the true branch in an IF statement". One might argue that having a function to test for logic true is unnecessary as you can directly test for equality against a TRUE, so it would be a waste. Still I wonder if it's confusing.
There is currently no FALSE? because NOT works. I would argue that the two make different suggestions to a reader. Kind of like how unless is the same as if not but reads differently. NOT feels like you're changing or flipping something, while false is just a matter-of-fact test. e.g. NOT is a sort of "moving part"
 
1:31 PM
>> probe rebol.com
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
rebol.com
== rebol.com
 
Among weird usages for words with dots in them, there's one for you.
 
1:50 PM
posted on September 04, 2015 by hostilefork

This is a step toward CC#1879 moving AND, OR, and XOR to be conditional, by providing the conditional forms of the operations in prefix form. The baseline version of NOT was renamed to NOT? o fit in with the group, and then aliased to NOT (since it has no infix form).

 
no-more-than 2 [
print 1 true
print 1 false
print 1 false
print 2 true
print "This won't get printed" true
]
@HostileFork What did you see as wrong with "basis" for this?
@HostileFork CL uses | for multiple escaping -- characters inside || are "alphabetic" -- so |word with spaces| is one word
 
@MarkI Didn't consider it. Don't know if it jumps out to me as meaning that.
@MarkI That's a fairly reasonable application. Looks better than construction syntax and probably covers a lot of the cases. Hm.
 
2:08 PM
@HostileFork It's not as clean as I would like. You still need single-character escaping in order to get a literal | inside them. Then you need to double-up on the single-character escape character in order to get one of them inside. But it does "just work" after that.
 
Not as a replacement for construction syntax, but an alternative for common cases perhaps.
 
I have been muddling over making || be the "escaping" syntax for | inside || -- I like it, but I have not yet considered all the ramifications.
Example would be |this||has||single|orbars||separating||the||words|
Ugly, but better than |this^|worse^|IMO^|example|
And, in keeping with Rebol philosophy (again IMO!), inside || ||| would be two orbars, |||| would be three, etc., with less escaping overhead.
Oops, I missed one orbar in my example. Probably proves the whole idea sucks ...
 
Well, zzz... need to break. But plenty going on above in the log, and in bugfix land. take a look at this one. :-/ Anyhoo...back sometime...
 
 
3 hours later…
5:09 PM
@HostileFork Sorry that I didn't respond earlier. I didn't have time to think it through. But I trust your judgment, so go ahead if that's what you think you gotta do. Yes, I tried to avoid global variables, but they are just two of the many globals we have. I can live with them.
 
 
2 hours later…
7:11 PM
@GrahamChiu I don't currently support that path notation. Wouldn't take much if you want it though...
 
7:28 PM
To-webform could just take pairs of values without needing the first to be a legal word?
 
 
3 hours later…
10:16 PM
@GrahamChiu Encoding—I suppose though I'm pretty sure it'd have to be specified, Decoding—isn't that what DECODE-CGI does? Also, doesn't [] have to be encoded with %5B5D? Would rather see support for the foo[bar] pattern, despite my not liking it.
 
I submitted my form without encoding [] and it worked fine
 
It is a special case though.
I'm fairly certain it's beyond the url-encode spec.
Not sure this should work, but it does work:
>> do reb4.me/r3/altwebform
to-webform reduce [to word! "foo[bar]" "baz"]
@RebolBot alive?
 
10:50 PM
so an error is occuring with this rebol3 instance
 
@ShixinZeng Cool, great. Will take some time for all these changes to shake out but I do think things are going to be better for them.
@GrahamChiu I was thinking for a time that FORALL should be named STEP. One problem is that could be seen as a noun. It then needs refinements like reverse... I wonder if for-next and for-back are better?
 
11:25 PM
@rgchris I am torn on underscore's use of EVERY, but maybe there is a compromise. Imagine EVERY as a non-short circuiting FOR-EACH that just has a different return result... so it behaves just like FOR-EACH, except it returns NONE if any of its results were false/none. every x [1 2 3] [print x x >= 3] would print 1, 2, 3 and return 3. every x [1 2 3] [print x x >= 2] would print 1, 2, 3 and return NONE.
So you get both meanings of EVERY tied in that one word. "visit every value" and "every value true". It's interchangeable with FOR-EACH in almost all circumstances, hence a useful non-hyphenated substitute...only mattering if you care about the return result.
Win-win.
 

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