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6:00 PM
but why?
 
hard assumption to make
 
Dom
Isn't jQuery's .find() method a bit intensive?
 
in what sense?
 
Dom
It looks through the whole DOM, no?
 
It's a thin wrapper around querySelectorAll
and no, not necessarily
 
6:02 PM
if you scope them properly, selectors can be cheap
if you scope them wrong or make really complicated ones, lol good luck
 
Dom
How would I compare the performance of .find() vs LS vs globals? Or is that entirely context-specific?
 
Why would you want to?
Compare the performance, that is. They're different shit.
find runs some stuff, variables store some data
 
Dom
In case I ever have a similar situation
 
Similar to what?
 
Dom
Although I'd probably do it much differently
 
6:04 PM
@Dom you can't really compare those three
 
I'm confused
And tired
I probably shouldn't be here
 
don't use the DOM for generic data storage, ever, at all
localStorage and sessionStorage are fast key-value stores, use those if you want data to stick around for ever/the session
 
You kinda have to in a userscript
 
globals aren't really very much good, so they don't really matter very much
@JanDvorak userscripts are dirty hacks already, so it won't make them worse :D
 
Or IndexedDB which is async and tons better than LS, but with a terrible API :(
 
Dom
6:07 PM
Hearing about a few things I haven't encountered yet
I wasn't aware there was more than one way to persist data locally
 
Sometimes I try imagining what would have gone through the mind of spec people while they wrote the IndexedDB spec. They must have had an extremely rough night and would have been meaning to burn the entire world.
 
Dom
I know what session is but not much about it
 
Can it be worse than the DOM?
 
Dom
I think you guys are what's called JavaScript Engineers?
 
Is there anything called that?
 
Dom
6:09 PM
bunch of job postings lol
 
@JanDvorak I haven't tried imagining what would have gone through their minds while framing the DOM API yet :P
 
I call myself a front end dev
 
@AwalGarg it's pretty clean for a DB API
 
you got to be trolling
 
@JanDvorak it's far better, just vaguely JDBC looking
you'd be hard-pressed to put together a better database API
 
6:10 PM
yeah, not as sucky as DOM ofcourse. that'd be a feat
 
JDBC connection wizards in netbeans are bad, but the JDBC ORM isn't terrible.
 
@Dom Only @SterlingArcher
 
that's just netbeans :(
@Dom Release Engineer. It's halfway between Software Engineer and Systems Engineer.
 
@KendallFrey hey, my primary language right now is NodeJS and FreeFlyer script :P
 
wtf is freeflyer
i hate free flyers
 
6:12 PM
> FreeFlyer® is a commercial off-the-shelf (COTS) software application for space mission design, analysis, and operations.
the fuck
 
Luckily I'm not using Netbeans but Visual Studio. I know, six of one, half a dozen the other.
 
sounds contagious
 
@ssube like the first thing you talked good about in here, and it is the IDB API :P sigh
j/k, not first. but... eww
 
@JanDvorak VS is the best all-in-one editor I've used
@AwalGarg find a DB with a better interface. You won't. That's the standard API layout for any kind of DB.
because it works and fairly well
 
@ssube one? I'd give you three: redis, memcached, rethinkdb.
 
6:14 PM
@KendallFrey freeflyer is the software I use to model out satellite orbits and viewports
 
@AwalGarg the first two are not databases
 
VS is really good for an IDE, but I prefer more basic code editors for JS, like Atom
 
Dom
@ssube At first I thought it was just another name for 'person who does javascript' but then I get dazzled by you guys talking complex topics and I see there are many levels to JS
 
Clearly they've never heard of KSP
 
@ssube they are as much databases as IDB is. key value stores.
 
6:15 PM
lmao
 
@AwalGarg IDB has, among other things, indexes.
 
!!xkcd ksp
 
and cursors
 
It's really hard actually.. but on the bright side, I've learned a lot about Satellites
 
6:15 PM
@ssube redis has too
 
@AwalGarg plus, rethink (and mongo and anything behind knex) are just a fluent/builder on the same API.
@AwalGarg redis is still not a database.
key-value stores have very different semantics
 
IDB is by definition a key-value store
 
Any database can be used as a KVS
 
and a KVS can be considered a very simplistic type of DB, sometimes
 
@MadaraUchiha you still having a beer?
 
6:18 PM
IDB is just async localStorage with multiple tables support, and not limited to strings as values.
 
You with people there? I'm on my way from Beit Shemesh
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum No one went with the beer idea
So no
 
Dom
Is there a way to get more than 5MB of storage locally?
 
@AwalGarg that covers maybe 50% of it
@Dom you sometimes can with the user's permission, but not always, so don't expect to have much.
 
@MadaraUchiha is the meetup over already?
 
6:19 PM
@Dom Why do you think there is a limit?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Yeah
 
@JanDvorak localStorage has a cap between 5-10MB, depending on the browser
 
Started at 18:30, so no wonder
 
@MadaraUchiha and everyone went home?
 
Dom
@JanDvorak local storage limit is 5MB I think?
 
6:20 PM
@Dom yeah, IDB has a higher limit.
 
You weren't invited to the beer after :P?
 
and there is appcache and the new caching api part of the SW spec
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Yup
 
Dom
Is IDB basically just sitting on the page but acting like local storage or a DB?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Yeah, no, they all scattered
 
6:21 PM
2 mins ago, by Awal Garg
IDB is just async localStorage with multiple tables support, and not limited to strings as values.
 
@MadaraUchiha we'll see about that :P
 
there is more, like ssube said about the coverage, but nobody uses it
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I'm already home, but I'm still up for it
 
Naa, knowing the parties involved they're probably all old ladies and want to go to bed, I'm checking
 
the biggest user of IDB from chrome's metrics last fall was devdocs. sorta funny if you think about it
 
Dom
6:22 PM
@AwalGarg I don't understand where it's actually located? Is it just in a JS module/code or is it using LS? Or something else?
 
@Dom "something else"
 
@Dom totally different API
 
Dom
@AwalGarg I assume in a special browser dungeon lol
 
localStorage/sessionStorage is an extension to the browsers, IDB is another one, canvas is one, etc
 
6:23 PM
they're all attached to window, though
or some other element, occasionally
 
How many are attached to navigator?
 
except fetch which is attached to a special object of its own. cap was vulnerable for a time due to this.
 
!!mdn navigator
 
@JanDvorak Navigator
 
SW interface is on navigator
 
6:24 PM
@AwalGarg but nobody uses fetch. Stop trying to make fetch happen.
 
and there is that bacon API
@ssube I am afraid at the pace browsers have adopted fetch, it has already happened
 
geolocation
 
has anyone poked on chrome to reveal the usage of that beacon/bacon API? I seriously wonder if anyone even knows about it
 
Dom
Most of this is sailing over my head. I just use JS to make the fingymajicks. :)
 
@AwalGarg lol it's not a secret
 
6:27 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum it feels like one, though. have never seen it used in production ever.
 
@KendallFrey how much do you have to do with inclination, eccentricity, perigee.apogee points in KSP?
 
all of it
 
twitter does synchronous xhrs in onunload in mobile in 2016. period.
 
Nice
I just learned what mean anomaly means lol
 
it means your eyebrows
 
6:28 PM
Everyone will know about Beacon when synchronous XHR gets removed from Chrome.
 
trueché
 
!!define anomaly
 
@KendallFrey anomaly A deviation from a rule or from what is regarded as normal; an outlier.
 
@JanDvorak lol
 
in case you were still thinking of the orbit one
 
Dom
6:28 PM
Cool bot by the way guys
 
just don't overuse her here.
 
Dom
Will she explode?
 
She doesn't really like providing you with private pleasures in public
 
Dom
Can we get a room? :P
 
6:30 PM
Or rather, the public wouldn't be amused
!!tell dom sandbox
 
@dom Please go and play in the Sandbox
 
The public is never amused, huehuehuehue.
 
Dom
I meant a private room....
 
!!urban hue hue
 
@AwalGarg huehue A odd laugh commonly thought as the laugh of a retarded troll.
 
6:31 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum well??
 
@AwalGarg it's how frenchmen laugh
all snobby and surrendery
 
That... agrees
 
Dom
jajaja :)
 
!!urban jajaja
 
@JanDvorak jajaja Oftenly used on online games, "jajaja" is a form a laughing used by Spanish people. Just like "San Jose" and "Jalapeno" the "J" is pronounced like and "H".
 
6:32 PM
Anyone use TFS?
 
TFS = team-fucking-speak?
 
@Plummer we try not to
 
@ssube don't we all
 
@Plummer Most of us live in 2016, so, guessing not?
 
6:34 PM
@MadaraUchiha I don't use it by choice.
 
@MadaraUchiha Lets not discriminate against Benji who still lives in 2004 with Windows XP.
 
!!urban tfs
 
@JanDvorak TFS I've heard it stands for team foundation server, but having used team foundation server, I now know it stands for Total Fucking Shit.
6
 
@AwalGarg Nah, he deserves it.
 
Dom
:D
 
6:35 PM
fair enough
 
Dom
Is there a consensus on Angular in here?
 
Yeah. It sucks.
 
Yeah. It sucks.
 
Yeah. It sucks.
 
Dom
that's kind of where my opinion on it is heading
 
6:38 PM
Angular is ok. I'd wager the same people who dislike Wordpress also dislike Angular.
 
@MadaraUchiha everyone is either a grandma or wants to do lame stuff
:(
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Figured
Welp, maybe we could do smth tomorrow (cc @Zirak)
 
@Plummer because they're sane?
 
Dom
Any particular reason it sucks? (for me it just doesn't seem like normal JS)
 
Yeah, Israeili night on the town; gonna get crunk!
 
6:39 PM
Hey fuck you guys I like angular
 
you also like php
 
^
Your opinion is invalid.
 
> I have to write a chrome plugin to get a desktop notification for merges and pulls on a gh project
 
I don't recall ever saying 'like' ;)
 
6:39 PM
Anyone knows how this could be done without a server using Service Workers/Push API/whatever new bleeding edge API you can think of. (and without polling)
 
@JanDvorak because they prefer more mature frameworks over the easy shit
 
Dom
lol the Python guys also rip PHP
 
@AwalGarg You'll have to poll GH for changes
 
@Plummer go home, you're drunk
 
But yeah, sounds plausible without a server
 
6:40 PM
@MadaraUchiha I know you like it too!
 
Especially since GH has an API that can probably help you
 
@MadaraUchiha no polling whenever I mention service workers
 
@AwalGarg GitHub has web hooks, which means it can POST you, but you don't want a server
 
@Plummer I like Wordpress, because it's a decent hosted blog, but loathe Angular (because it tries to make JS act like the worst parts of Java).
 
@MadaraUchiha how? It is a JSON based REST API. no events or webhook api
@MadaraUchiha right... the server part is the issue
 
6:41 PM
I don't think it exposes a pub/sub stream (although, how awesome would that have been)
So you're reduced to polling every few minutes
 
@ssube all the dudes I work with are ex-Java devs
 
Best I can think of.
 
@ssube it's … decent enough as long as you don't have to touch its internals
 
@MadaraUchiha anything with an updatedSince search has pub/sub
 
@bwoebi I'll be completely honest with you, I used to
 
6:41 PM
@ssube so that makes a lotta sense
 
@MadaraUchiha does it have webhooks but not a websocket endpoint?
 
Internals made me hate it.
 
@Plummer yeah. Angular is Spring for JS.
 
@JanDvorak I think so.
Although, I'm not sure, worth checking.
 
It is the worst big piece of tech I've seen lately.
 
6:41 PM
It is basically one of those things that Service Workers and the Push API should have solved. It is strange that I can't think of a way to do this with them.
 
@MadaraUchiha you never were really engaged on internals?
 
@bwoebi I got the concept pretty darn quickly.
 
PHP is now obsolete. Use JSHP.
 
^
To be fair, I don't hate PHP
 
kick awal pls
 
6:42 PM
how bout you not use either
 
Dom
I heard PHP was originally made for personal blogs?
 
PHP is the reason I know most of the stuff I know today
 
be the bigger person, use a real language
 
@MadaraUchiha hmm , I find some mails from 2013 from you
 
oh btw, github.com/awalGarg/jshp opinions on my ultra-professional enterprise friendly readme?
 
6:43 PM
But I still won't use PHP in any non-trivial production app today.
 
@JanDvorak nah, you can't joke kick people who get real warnings. It gets messy.
@MadaraUchiha Can it really be called trivial if it went to prod?
 
Finding PHP developers who can comprehend the concept of the MySQL server being on a different machine than the PHP server is too hard.
 
lol
 
That sounds like you have an issue with PHP developers, not PHP
 
@SterlingArcher I have an issue with PHP hiring
 
6:44 PM
How do you provide security with a non-local database? Intranet?
 
Not strictly PHP
 
PRPG has a DB server separate from PHP
PHP Hiring, like the spam PHP developer job posts?
 
@JanDvorak SSH tunnel is my preferred method
 
ninjad
 
If the majority of developers of a specific language or library are really bad, who do you blame? Clearly that language or library perpetuates bad code and poor practice.
 
6:45 PM
Like jQuery?
 
Ekn
that is... too generalized
 
@SterlingArcher Bad developers can write bad code even in a good language, but a bad language prevents good developers from writing good code.
3
 
"Never blame the user" is a paradigm I'm trying hard to keep
 
Like Javascript?
 
If the vast majority of PHP devs is bad, I blame PHP, not the devs.
 
6:46 PM
@ssube but.. you can write good PHP code
 
PHP actively prevents you from writing good code, with the stdlib and scoping issues.
 
@ssube people can write good PHP
 
@MadaraUchiha it's true … for JS, it gets harder too find good devs, the older JS gets
 
Just like if the vast majority of "pure jQuery" developers is bad, I blame jQuery
 
It's like swimming upstream though.
 
6:46 PM
@SterlingArcher you really can't write good, clean, clear, modular, efficient PHP.
 
@MadaraUchiha why though? That's a poor statistic to go to, since I'm willing to bet a high % of PHP developers are noobs
 
@bwoebi Yes, that is the consequence of an easy-to-learn, easy-to-approach API
 
Dom
What are your favourite backend languages?
 
@MadaraUchiha how about pure vanilala in pre-jquery times?
 
@SterlingArcher And why is that the a high % of PHP developers are noobs?
 
6:46 PM
jquery
 
@ssube look at the code for the bot php room people made recently
 
@ssube I don't agree, it's very easy to write classes and APIs in PHP
 
@MadaraUchiha Indirectly. It's mainly a consequence of becoming mainstream
 
@Dom Ruby
 
@SterlingArcher PHP classes don't enforce half of the things classes are supposed to do.
 
6:47 PM
5 years ago you were insane if you programmed serverside JS
 
@MadaraUchiha because PHP is a good starter language, and most don't study it hardcore?
@ssube like what?
 
@SterlingArcher eh, no
 
@SterlingArcher And why most people don't study it hardcore?
 
They're a mushy late-night addition, like putting on a condom after sex.
 
Because they get the concept, try something else, figure it's better for them, and never look back
 
6:48 PM
Because coding is hard
 
Alternatively, they never try to progress because the basic, ugly PHP does what they need, and that's all they ever want.
Both are valid, but still won't make me put up a half complex system in PHP out there.
 
RIP Jordan 2016 -- He was once our brother in JavaScript, but he fell into darkness on the fateful day that he let PHP taint his heart. </3
 
I'm looking for specific reasons on PHP here, not consorting to the shit dev :P
 
Dom
@JanDvorak I had to choose between learning that and Python, I chose Python
 
@SterlingArcher Why aren't people using Common Lisp more?
 
6:49 PM
Hey I'm just playing devils advocate here. I'd rather use Python or Node
 
Why is it only the lunatic @FlorianMargaine that keeps yelling how great it is?
 
@MadaraUchiha because it's not a common language?
 
@Dom gratz for a great decision
 
Why does Bartek always rep Haskell?
 
@MadaraUchiha everybody else has gotten over parens
 
Dom
6:49 PM
@AwalGarg \o/
 
@SterlingArcher I think he's actually trolling us.
 
Python isn't actively bad, but it's still not as good as Ruby :-D
 
It's a self feeding cycle
 
Or just trying to start another fight.
 
@SterlingArcher ugh, PHP a good starter language? I still value Java over PHP as starter language
 
6:49 PM
Big community = high opportunity to hire
 
either C# or python.
 
Haskell is great
 
@JanDvorak python.is? _ {|better| than.ruby!}
 
Small community = low opportunity to hire
 
because screw your stupid every-symbol-anywhere syntax
 
6:50 PM
To big a community = flooded with low talent, and high talent is drowned in the noise
 
Lisp is used in higher Ed a lot, still
but it's not actually used out in reality, because people know better
 
@ndugger Lisp only lacks in tooling
 
@ssube at least we have a strong core lib :-D
 
Its capabilities aren't lesser than Java or JS
And lack of tooling is a function of lack of community which is a function of lack of tooling
Like I said, a self feeding cycle
 
ruby is all about confusing the developer. "you wanna do $thing x? you see how you did it in your previous language? you can't do that here. we have invented 73 different constructs to do the same thing though and you'd find them readable once you memorize all of them. very readable language"
 
6:52 PM
@AwalGarg huh what?
 
Dom
Python is pretty hot, I haven't looked at a single line of Ruby yet, and since I put ASP.NET MVC on my CV I've been getting contacted a lot
 
@Dom masochists like you aren't easy to find :-D
 
@JanDvorak with 1-6 versions of every normal function, each of which do semi-unrelated things
 
Ew, get away from ASP.NET
Unless you enjoy working on government legacy software
 
@ssube That's a question of naming, not of having too many functions
 
6:53 PM
@JanDvorak just trolling, I don't know much ruby. but my initial impressions were that it has many ways to do simple things which confuses newbies.
 
i don't put all those programming languages i use on my CV. I adapt it to the vacature. They don't need to know that i'm familiar with Javascript if they're not looking for it
 
@SterlingArcher Unless you want to wear a tie and have corporate hand holding events.
 
@JanDvorak ruby tries to do too much
but the syntax for lambdas/callbacks is also bad
 
@ssube It does a lot and that's what I like
first class blocks are cool
 
i gave up on ruby on rails :|
 
Dom
6:54 PM
@SterlingArcher I fell into it, and seriously, been contacted 6 times in 2 weeks
 
the lamba syntax is weird but it's a product of an over-filled parser
 
I get near daily front end recruiter contacts :(
 
@JanDvorak which is because the language tries to do too much
 
My linked in profile is apparently impressive. My brother said his company (AWS) is looking at me for my 3 year mark
 
y = ->f x{f f, x}
 
6:55 PM
the string/symbol/unquoted string thing is a mess
 
So that's kind of exciting
 
@JanDvorak my reaction: @_@
 
I would like to see coldfusion re-invented, where most of the logic/model-controller flow is done strictly in cfscript, leaving cfml to be used strictly for views.
 
@KevinB that's because you're a garbage person and you belong in the garbage.
 
you can try that
 
6:55 PM
I don't know why though, I'm nowhere near amazon developer level.
 
Dom
@JanDvorak Dom pukes uncontrollably
 
Do you mean percent literals? Use them sparingly and remember those that you use
 
and drop all the cfform/cfinput/cftable bs
 
drop all of coldfusion
 
it's so cold
 
6:57 PM
I think my experience with ColdFusion is warped by the fact that I never used CFScript, only the HTML-like tags
 
Dom
Python lambda p: p.score
 
Because nobody's touched it for years
@Dom too verbose
 
don't use adobe's version of cfml
 
@MadaraUchiha studying works easier on more deterministic systems (in regard to types)
 
I can do lambda {|f, x|f f, x} too
 
6:58 PM
I didn't really have a choice :P
 
but even lucee, is starting to become stagnant. the devs are moving on
 
I had to use CF7-9
The coolest shit I made at RAINN was with Python and Java
 
welcome back from hell
 
With Python I made a phone to browser texting server, and with Java I made a phone questionnaire for post service calls
 
i'm kinda stuck with cf atm
 
6:59 PM
The python project was the best
I don't think I've ever written such pretty code
 

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