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user1596138
3:00 PM
Iso-latte
 
i-so-late
 
user1596138
Latte
 
ur a latte brah
 
@Jhawins the good reason not to, is that those who'll be teaching me, know nothing about the practical aspects of what they are teaching. that's how we manage in here. I checked the books, they teach php-mysql, no word for escaping user input, sql injection, xss etc.
 
user1596138
We don't have a coffee shop...
 
3:01 PM
and sorry if my tone right now is rude, I am actually crying (almost)
 
@AwalGarg wait... why?
 
user1596138
@AwalGarg Those aren't the things they need to teach you :P.
 
> Game Over: You hacked 2 RAMs today
 
@Jhawins why? what else would they teach me?
 
user1596138
You need to learn syntax tricks. General logic, how to use the more complex operators etc. Not how to escape user input. They need to give you a foundation to learn on your own from. They should teach you the fundamental aspects. The rest is on you because you'll be able to
 
3:03 PM
your best teacher is trial and error. when you fail, don't get down on yourself. realize you just learned one new way not to do it.
 
and michelle obama
 
Bruce Willis taught me how to die hard.
 
he taught me I'm too old for this shit
 
die hard and never flaccid
 
@Jhawins ok. but don't you think I don't need to goto an institute for that purpose? I have an internet connection.
 
user1596138
3:05 PM
@AwalGarg Things like sql injection and xss techniques aren't 100% essential to programming. The good programmers do this but the not so good ones don't. You're going to be an awesome programmer so you're going to go learn all that shit on your own whether or not someone teaches you it.
 
@RalphWiggum A good way to do that is to get bitten by a Brazilian Wandering Spider.
 
Hi @Jhawins
 
user1596138
@AwalGarg Maybe you don't. I have a full time job, sure, shitty pay, but I'm definitely a competent developer. And I never had any instruction at all
 
s/competent/flaccid/
 
@rlemon instructs me on all of the bad things that I do.
 
user1596138
3:06 PM
But if school was financially feasible I'd still be interested in it. Just not for the programming aspect, I want the rest of the program :P
 
user1596138
@AbhishekHingnikar yo
 
(like extending native objects)
 
DON'T DO IT!
 
@KendallFrey I hope I get bitten
 
@rlemon just do it
 
3:06 PM
@Jhawins I'll goto uni when I retire
 
Nike
 
@Jhawins ahh I get it. yeah you are right there are other things in school, leave aside studying.
so, node or php? //I don't know node, and I know PHP
 
node4life
 
So, I don't even know what this is, because their font is bugged the shit out on my screen: teslajs.com -- way too thin. It got all choppy.
 
@AwalGarg everything but PHP
 
3:07 PM
@Jhawins sup matey ?
 
@rlemon you're going to be that old ass man in the freshman dorms?
Impressive
 
user1596138
@AwalGarg I read one book that actually got me started. It was "beginning C by Ivor Horton from Novice to Professional". I have never actually programmed in C, and I didnt do the examples in the book. But it is the sole reason I could go pick up the rest because it taught me the fundamental parts that apply more-or-less to every language.
 
@NickDugger that's pretty much illegible on my screen
 
Indeed
 
!!s/ass /ass-/
 
3:08 PM
@SterlingArcher @rlemon you're going to be that old ass-man in the freshman dorms? (source)
 
@Jhawins to every imperative language
 
!!s/ass /ass-/
 
user1596138
> more-or-less
 
less than more.
 
3:08 PM
D:
 
user1596138
@BartekBanachewicz Actually no. Not entertaining that at all. You're wrong.
 
user1596138
:P
 
@RalphWiggum It works on a mac -- better font AA
 
user1596138
The fundamentals are the same
 
3:09 PM
@Dystroy @RyanKinal @BartekBanachewicz ... ls fill the form then i will remove it
 
@BartekBanachewicz depends on which count. By popularity, usage, or sheer number of languages?
 
@Jhawins of imperatvie languages
 
user1596138
You need to know how a block of code is processed
 
@AbhishekHingnikar on it
 
got about 50 on it. :-)
 
3:09 PM
@Jhawins nonsense
 
user1596138
You're nonsense. The very core is the same. It's just how computers work.
 
@Jhawins dude now you sound like zigi, just letting you know
 
Computers don't execute things one at a time
 
!!>'You need to know how a block of code is processed'.split(' ').sort().join(' ')
 
@adeneo "You a block code how is know need of processed to"
 
3:10 PM
@Jhawins high-level languages have nothing to do with how computers work
they model things in an abstract way and whatever underlying implementation is used is irrelevant
 
user1596138
@BartekBanachewicz Pfft. Stop taking things for face value.
 
@Jhawins what?
 
user1596138
Of course they have nothing to do with silicon and electricity.
 
user1596138
So low-level ones don't either
 
they also have nothing to do with hardware instructions
 
3:12 PM
Really low-level ones do
 
silicone is great in boobs, electricity, not so much
 
low-level ones do
 
user1596138
You're nitpicking. There's no need to make sure I worded it perfectly fine, @AwalGarg knows what I meant.
 
@adeneo Silicon doesn't belong in boobs
Silicone is fine though
 
hey JSers, my IDE is saying that this line is wrong but *it is* a valid regex, what gives?
`/\w.*\@\w.*\..+{2,}/.test($(this).val())`

gave up on formating.
 
user1596138
3:12 PM
@adeneo silicone
 
@Jhawins no, you just worded it poorly and I don't agree with you.
 
@Jhawins sure I do, thanks for your support Jhawins. very much appreciated. :)
 
Especially with that "you gotta know low-level stuff to understand high-level stuff"
 
!!urban silicone valley
 
@KendallFrey silicone valley the area between two breast implants.
 
3:13 PM
!!slidepoop
 
Mar 13 '13 at 1:40, by rlemon
(Random Fact, when rlemon was 13 he pooped on a slide. he isn't proud of it, but he felt it was time to confess. I'm sorry slide.)
 
user1596138
@BartekBanachewicz I didn't say that. Nobody did. Link
 
the best valley ever
 
3 mins ago, by Jhawins
You need to know how a block of code is processed
 
user1596138
@BartekBanachewicz This is an extremely broad statement.
 
3:13 PM
what did you mean by that, then?
 
@BartekBanachewicz I agree with that
You got to know low level stuff to understand high level stuff.
2
 
@BartekBanachewicz your picture reminds me of Andy Dick and I don't know why
 
As a general statement, it is correct.
 
user1596138
What kind of "block"? In what language? How much arbitration is going on? You know nothing at all. There's not enough context to make that sentence actually mean anything
 
3:14 PM
You can still be effective with high level stuff, but you won't understand it, which is perfectly fine for most cases.
 
You have to know high-level code to write high-level code. You have to know low-level code to write amazing high-level code.
 
user1596138
It was just advice for AwalGarg, not a dick. Don't take it so hard. // reaching but I used it
 
@Jhawins Then why the hell would you even write something like that.
 
user1596138
@KendallFrey Yesssss, good way to put it.
 
I can drive a car without understanding how it works. can't fix it without understanding how it works.
 
3:14 PM
you're writing meaningless words and even admit it.
 
@BartekBanachewicz you enter rooms to pick fights and even admit it ;)
2
 
@KendallFrey disagree, mostly because of varying definitions of "amazing"
 
I can eat food, but I can't cook it, because I suck at cooking.
 
@rlemon that's not a good analogy imho since the user is the driver and the mechanics are developers.
 
user1596138
@BartekBanachewicz Seriously dude, what the hell are you smoking? I gave him advice and it helped, cause he's looking at being in the same boat as me. Just move on.
 
3:15 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum eh, you got the point. stop throwing your logic at me!
 
You can fix a car's engine without understanding mechanics, but you won't really understand how/why the fix works and you'll be better at it if you do.
 
You can fix a car without knowing how to make the parts
 
@Jhawins You're wrong. vOv. And giving wrong advice, no less.
 
user1596138
I have no interest in being pedantic with you over this. It's pathetic. I will admit I didn't say things perfectly, but did I need to? The person I was talking to understood.
 
you're spitting out of a lot of nonsensical words, granted.
 
3:16 PM
Oh my god, what are we even doing, arguing about this?
 
user1596138
On top of that... It's actually necessary to not be too specific. AwalGarg is 16, he is still learning. He doesn't need things worded the perfect way, because he doesn't understand the perfect way yet.
 
You can part a car without knowing how to fix it
 
user image
3
 
@adeneo Designing and making the parts are different, you can fix a car without knowing how its parts are designed or why, you just won't understand why the fix actually works.
 
@Jhawins Let's teach every beginner using ambiguous wording, way to go.
He specifically needs things to be worded consistently, because he's a beginner.
 
3:17 PM
@BartekBanachewicz I'm actually for that, I don't mind teaching people incorrect but useful stuff.
 
user1596138
@Bartek you're trolling. Please cease trolling in room #17. I'm done with this.
 
@Jhawins I'd say you give a shot to low level languages like C
 
@Jhawins ew
calling people trolls is stupid
 
or a lower level language then javascript / php
 
@Jhawins Either you don't understand what trolling is or you are trolling now.
 
user1596138
3:18 PM
Either that or you were born at your current skill level and never had to learn anything.
 
@AbhishekHingnikar I love how C became a low level language, when I grew up it was a high level language :)
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum - so you're saying that if my clutch breaks, and I change it, I won't know why the fix works because I don't know how to make a clutch or mold a gearbox or whatever ?
 
Is there something even higher level than javascript?
 
@Jhawins nice ad hominem
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum my physics teacher in HS started out teaching us mis-information to better help us understand the real concepts. it was extremely helpful
 
user1596138
3:18 PM
Like others have said... You pick fights just to pick fights. We've all seen you do it.
 
@NickDugger How about REBEL?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I don't think C is very low level...
 
Oh GAWD lets not teach misinformation
 
@Jhawins and so I must be incorrect when saying that you're wrong?
respond to the critique, not to the person.
 
@KendallFrey you're a bit biased about that, aren't you? lol Googled it
 
3:19 PM
@adeneo no, that's exactly the opposite of my point. You can still fix your clutch and you shouldn't care how to make it, but if you don't understand the mechanics involved you won't really understand why it fixes, you'll have a rough idea though.
 
@NickDugger English
 
Ill have to know what time of the week it is.. do we yell at users who just need jQuery help?
 
@rlemon most of what we learn is misinformation :)
 
!!mute Jhawins 5
 
3:19 PM
@KendallFrey You probably didn't want to mute a room owner.
 
Or tell them its ok to use jQuery because they are new.
 
@rlemon nudge listen to dubstep
 
@CapricaSix thanks
 
In fact, it's extremely common in distributed systems to spread misinformation because it's useful
 
user1596138
3:20 PM
@KendallFrey ...? Wtf
 
I was gonna give you both a timeout
 
Computers send each other estimations or lies to keep things simple.
 
Everyone, just chill. I'm even getting irritated, and I'm an annoying shit.
 
Then don't look at the screen.
Its an internet chat room.
 
@Loktar - Blasphemy, jQuery must never be recommended
 
3:20 PM
@rlemon I went to this underground dubstep concert in NYC this past weekend if you dont' want to listen to main stuff I have some soundcloud links you may be interested in (less vocals, easier to focus on coding)
 
user1596138
@KendallFrey Pfft. Step down son. We aren't anywhere near that.
 
!!s/chat/whore/
 
@adeneo lol ikr!
 
@jAndy Its an internet whore room. (source)
 
@Jhawins No way, give it a rest
 
3:21 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum that was basically his point - I'll preset it in a way you can understand it right now... then really teach you how to come to that result properly
 
!!s/internet//
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum @jAndy Its an whore room. (source) (source)
 
user1596138
@KendallFrey Give what a rest
 
meh I agree with @BartekBanachewicz
 
@mrzepka sure but i'm going for lunch soon
 
user1596138
3:21 PM
I'm not even sure I was part of a dicsussion
 
ok I'll just link them and you can do with them as you please
 
!!s/a\s+whore/ /
 
@rlemon it's impossible to teach physics the right way at the very start, both because we don't know it yet and because it's extremely complicated mathematically.
 
@jAndy No matching message (are you sure we're in the right room?)
 
hopefully when I return the pissing contest is over and we can resume regular activities.
 
3:22 PM
bleh
 
WTH does ubuntu take 2 hours to dist-upgrade :/
This is what I get for installing ubuntu on a machine
What a joke operating system :/
I should have just installed Debian again.
 
Debian ftw
 
!!afk have to log off every two hours, or the NSA can track me !
 
lol
 
3:23 PM
Thats when their cron jobs run
 
or Jhawins will [immorally] log your IP, and then you'll surely be screwed
 
> running trackusers.php
 
@NickDugger lol
 
user1596138
@NickDugger :D lmfao
 
user1596138
For the record... I didn't actually believe I could do anything with that. I was purely egging on a troll... It worked.
 
3:24 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum for me it was C++
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum there's a difference between simplifying things and making outright incorrect assumptions. That's one of the reasons C is still taught at programming 101, while pretty much everyone agrees it's not fit for the task. And hence the myth forms that low-level knowledge is somehow essential for every programmer. Which is then repeated in classrooms and SO chatrooms too, apparently.
 
user1596138
> morally incorrect
 
when we started they called C++ HIGH level, now in college they say C++ is low level :'(
 
C++ is mid level but definitely not low level
 
@AbhishekHingnikar c++ is a high level language.
 
3:25 PM
it's mostly a high-level language
 
10 years later developers with bug about javascript not having native support for artificial intelligence and machine ui.
 
The fact it's not managed doesn't mean it's not a high level language.
 
idk, our boooks call it low level.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I think that C is beneficial not because of it's low-levelness, but because of it's syntactic simplicity.
 
Assembly or die
 
3:25 PM
@NickDugger binary or die
 
@AbhishekHingnikar registers or die
 
@KendallFrey that's why I'm glad I learned C in my career
 
Series of tubes or die
 
@AbhishekHingnikar hex is really better
 
@Loktar electrons or die !
 
3:25 PM
@Loktar circuitry or die
 
@BartekBanachewicz C is decent for programming 101 imo. It doesn't really matter what language you choose for that.
 
@KendallFrey I can see that PoV; however, for me semantic simplicity is worth way more than syntactic simplicity
 
@AbhishekHingnikar virtual photons or die
 
@BartekBanachewicz I think C is simple semantically.
 
Die.
 
3:26 PM
@KendallFrey strings or die
 
@BartekBanachewicz It's also that
 
It's a lot closer to the metal than any other still used general purpose programming language.
 
die bart die
 
IMHO it's primitive, not simple
 
@AbhishekHingnikar LQG or die
 
3:26 PM
I hate C
I'm glad I know it.
 
Lisp is simple
 
@KendallFrey fuck everything .... Batman or Die
 
I think everyone should know it.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I most certainly don't think that.
 
@BartekBanachewicz you try explaining how the computer runs lisp :)
 
3:27 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum you're still on about that
 
user1596138
@BartekBanachewicz Bro... To clarify, and I seriously don't have a problem right now. I wasn't saying he needed the low level stuff. I was just telling him how I actually learned in the start because he seems to be in close to the same situation just not sure where to go. I never said he needed or even should read that book or any book on C. I just was saying that the amount of knowledge picked up from just 1 book on a language you don't even end up using is absolutely insane.
 
programming is not about how computers work :/
 
@BartekBanachewicz you can show C decompiled and show what part does what and explain how a computer works to people. C is also very small and simple semantically where C++ isn't.
 
@KendallFrey what was that quote you had in C# room that had like 11 stars that explained what programming was?
 
48 secs ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
programming is not about how computers work :/
 
3:28 PM
It was like programming is taking a problem so complex a human can't understand it and breaking it down into pieces small enough for a computer to understand?
 
Something like making complex problems really simple
 
You never have to read a 5 page linker error templates caused in C. You get one of those every time you put something you can't in C++ map.
 
@mrzepka pretty much
 
user1596138
It actually had nothing to do with high|low level programming, or any specific language, task etc. It was just "Hey this is what helped me, maybe it can help you"
 
@BartekBanachewicz of course it's not.
 
user1596138
3:28 PM
!!afk smoke
 
However, you have to understand how computers work to program well.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum why?
 
You still need to understand paging, caching, memory access times, memory addresses.
These things never went away.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum really?
Tell that to people using MatLab
 
Almost every "givemetehcodez" on SO is because of an inability to subdivide even the most divisible of tasks.
 
3:29 PM
Yep
 
CANIHAZCODE ?!
 
    for(var i = 0; i < 1024; i++){
        for(var j = 0; j < 1024; j++){
            arr[i][j] += 1;
        }
    }

    // vs

    for(var i = 0; i < 1024; i++){
        for(var j = 0; j < 1024; j++){
            arr[j][i] += 1;
        }
    }
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Pretty much everything you mentioned is only relevant in very low-level optimizations that are done beyond the scope of 99.99% programs written in the world
@BenjaminGruenbaum that's very low-level code
 
@BartekBanachewicz can someone who doesn't understand how computers work justify why the first version is an order of magnitude faster?
 
plus thats definitely not enough jQuery
 
3:31 PM
why don't you bring up assembly code while we're at it
 
@BartekBanachewicz perhaps, but most programmers have performance bottlenecks that they have to solve.
 
@BartekBanachewicz That's not low-level at all
 
@BartekBanachewicz programmers should learn assembly, they shouldn't have to use it but they should at least see it, and understand how the concepts work.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum and most of them are not solved by that
 
I'm not saying you should start with it.
 
3:31 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum why? where's the gain?
 
@BartekBanachewicz that's a very simple example, but a very common one too.
 
most of the bottlenecks nowadays is IO
 
No they're not.
And btw, that example is an IO bottleneck... just so we're on the same page.
 
it's really not the kind of IO I meant
 
I'd like to point out the number of votes on this:
 
3:32 PM
That for loop example is even a classic IO bottleneck problem.
 
12522
A: Why is processing a sorted array faster than an unsorted array?

MysticialYou are the victim of branch prediction fail. What is Branch Prediction? Consider a railroad junction: Image by Mecanismo, via Wikimedia Commons. Used under the CC-By-SA 3.0 license. Now for the sake of argument, suppose this is back in the 1800s - before long distance or radio communicati...

 
not even mentioning the fact that every reasonable compiler would do that for you.
 
^*2 branch prediction is hard, I'm not even talking about those levels.
 
even if I agree with @BenjaminGruenbaum (learning low level stuff, machine code), I'd disagree in saying "you have to do that in order to get abstract stuff problems"
 
yes, and that's all in low-level code you don't touch
 
3:33 PM
@BartekBanachewicz 10$ says clang under -O3 doesn't do it for you, nor does it give you a warning, nor does it unwind the loop in most scenarios.
 
@AbhishekHingnikar Is our email adresse about secure or will it be shown ?
 
12522 votes?
 
@jAndy I didn't say it (and I'm sorry if I did), I started with "You can be effective without it", but you won't understand why.
 
and seriously, again, if you write low-level code, you're responsible for low-level optimizations
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I was reading the 3-starred line of you
 
3:33 PM
FTR numerical for loop (nested!) is low-level
 
@BartekBanachewicz abstractions don't always hold, and sometimes you have to get your hands dirty.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum that's FUD
most of the programmers won't ever have to do that.
 
Only in veryh specific fields, like web development.
 
not really.
 
In web development, most programmers need a very different skillset.
 
3:35 PM
the more advanced the compilers and libraries get, the less of this stuff is relevant to everyday programmer
compare it with 80s or 90s era, where p much everyone had to know those
 
unfortunately (or fortunately?) thats also true in many "non web dev"-stuff too nowadays
 
Abstractions break, maybe less and less but they'll always break at some point and there will always be a win by knowing those - you'll avoid traps.
 
there's no guarantee they will break
 
like C#, .NET and such crap
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum oh wow I actually understand why the first is faster.
 
3:36 PM
there isn't much low-level understanding required in order to use a shitload of libraries
 
@BartekBanachewicz guarantee? No, but at the end of the day - you'll end up needing it - I did.
@mrzepka explain it.
 
and considering that typical applications don't handle that much data, faster libraries and faster computers pretty much remove the need for that knowledge.
@BenjaminGruenbaum You did, but a lot of people won't.
 
@BartekBanachewicz what is this "typical" application you speak of?
 
Why should they spend their time on this if they could learn reasonable design instead?
 
@BartekBanachewicz a lot of people are effective but shitty programmers, I dare say from my personal experience that most . I've also never argued that you can't be effective without it, but it's still a huge win imo.
@BartekBanachewicz because it's another skill you need to have, I'm not saying analysis and design - or algorithms are somehow less important.
 
3:37 PM
Every programmer using JS can be seen as "effective, but shitty", you know.
At least that's how it looks from my perspective.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum The way arrays are stored in memory essentially. The first accesses the data sequentially (which is less movements between memory and reduces access time) while the second jumps 1024 times back and forth between memory locations
 
knowing how low-level stuff works will help you not lose your dignity by yelling at a computer
 
And this room has taught me that it's not always bad to be a shitty programmer.
 
@BartekBanachewicz haha, now who's spreading FUD?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum it's not FUD.
 
3:38 PM
@BartekBanachewicz well if you're never a shitty programmer you can't become a good programmer
 
user1596138
> JavaScript programmers are effective, but shitty
 
@BartekBanachewicz It's always better to be non-shitty than to be shitty. Always.
 
@BartekBanachewicz there is a HUGE difference between being shitty and trading off purity for meeting deadlines.
 
@KendallFrey then why do you voluntarily choose to write js code?
 
user1596138
Ok. Yeah. Nice.
 
3:39 PM
the point is still also true for ECMAscript. Knowing whats going on under the hood on implementation level, will make you a much better JavaScript coder
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I think same things apply
 
avoiding leaks, creating more effective code and avoiding trouble in general
 
@BartekBanachewicz Because I find JS simple to use.
 
@mrzepka RAM access is much slower than CPU cache access, the first version makes a lot less page faults (or at the very least RAM accesses) than the second one, it's caching really.
@BartekBanachewicz how so?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum JS code compared to well-typed code is as shitty as high-level code of shitty programmers is ignorant of low-level performance gimmicks
 
3:40 PM
By the way, these "low level optimizations" helped me a ton with machine learning, sometimes the algorithms out there are just implemented poorly and are not fast enough and making a "low level optimization" was the difference between business value and rubbish.
 
that's exactly the same tradeoff, in a different area
 
user1596138
Not knowing about anything that isn't arbitrated for you is totally doable. But you have yet to make a case for it being better. No one is saying its required, but it's undeniably a whole lot better to know what's actually happening.
 
@BartekBanachewicz the fact you haven't learned that's not true is extremely disappointing in my opinion. I have expected better from you.
2
 
@Jhawins no one in this room knows what's really happening in V8
 
@BartekBanachewicz a) That's irrelevant and b) try me.
 
3:41 PM
@BartekBanachewicz What reason do you have to believe that being strongly-typed automatically makes you better than weakly-typed languages?
 
I've read the source, and I can also run to Esailija crying and asking him if I don't understand or remember something.
:P
 
hola everyone
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I have learned that untyped code might be of business value and hence untyped languages like js can be seen as useful. However, I still consider a well-typed program of inherently more value.
 
its not necessary for a ECMAscript code to know how V8 works underneath. Its only important for him to know how the implementation works on which his language is based.
thats like his universe
 
@KendallFrey being statically correct requires more careful model crafting and architecture.
 
3:42 PM
there is nothing what he can do outside that universe
 
@BartekBanachewicz valuable how? You're starting to sound like Bob Martin
 
wohoo! first proper JS thing complete and working.... I am so happy!!!
 
same goes for C coder, his universe ultimately is machine code
 
Never underestimate the value of working code, never.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Therefore it is slower to write?
 
user1596138
3:42 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Did anyone say they did?
 
@KendallFrey typically, yes. at least upfront
 
@IsaiahTaylor hi.
 
@AwalGarg nice!
 
@BartekBanachewicz How is that better?
 
@IsaiahTaylor sup
 
3:43 PM
@BartekBanachewicz do you really want to go into an architectural debate?
 
user1596138
@AwalGarg Nice lol what did you make
 
yay!!! hah, I can now forget all worries for sometime atleast.
@mrzepka thnx
 
grabs popcorn and notebook
 
@Jhawins check sandbox.
 
@Jhawins he made cookies, all over the sandbox
 
3:43 PM
0
Q: Is there a straightforward way to have a jQuery animation on a collection create a new promise?

natlee75When I call the promise method on a jQuery collection without any arguments I get a promise that resolves once all animations on the element in the collection are finished. Every further call to the same method on that element will just return the same promise. Is there a straightforward way to "...

 
I find it amusing since I always argue with @BartekBanachewicz about typing where I'm usually the one defending it and saying how much I love type systems :D
 
@KendallFrey how do you know? its a bot.. though
 
user1596138
@KendallFrey looks like you need a timeout for talking to Bartek ;) // I have to give you shit you tried to mute me! :P
 
@KendallFrey when the project grows, the maintenance costs drop. More things can be statically proved, and so less unit tests are required, and the confidence in correct behaviour is way bigger, which is very important in systems that can't fail.
 
I am back from the pit of math tests and ready to get going on some js. ive made a few js games... what are your thoughts on how to make js secure enough to use as a simple gaming platform?
 
3:44 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum you're the devil's advocate :P
 
@BartekBanachewicz So it's good for big projects. What about small ones?
 
@IsaiahTaylor best hint: don't use JS clientside for any reasonable security
 
@BartekBanachewicz no, no one else argues your stance that statically typed code is of better quality inherently. There are other good things about static code.
 
@KendallFrey the fault-tolerance argument still stands there. The maintenance costs are obviously much less important.
 
I think weakly-typed languages are just as useful in many situations
 
3:46 PM
There are so many things that are just so much more important than the language used for writing maintainable code.
 
wait why "weakly" now
 
it's the opposite of strongly
 
@KendallFrey are we talking about static languages or weak languages
@KendallFrey I was talking about static typing, not strong typing.
strong/weak typing is a completely different story
 
I was talking about both
 
@jAndy yes, it is not a secure platform by nature.... i was wondering if anyone has ever done any developement to make it more. it just seems a waste. js is a very efficient gaming language with great ui potential and reasonable processing power
 
user1596138
3:47 PM
This conversation is such a waste of time. No one is even arguing for an actual point.
 
@KendallFrey I... am not sure how you can mix those.
 
@IsaiahTaylor Yes, look into SES (secure ecmascript), Mark Miller's work, google Caja etc.
 
@IsaiahTaylor its not meant for secure aspects at present. There is nothing you can hide from any reasonable experienced web developer
 
@IsaiahTaylor Wait, what do you mean by "secure" ?
 
@dystroy its secure
 
3:48 PM
@jAndy not unlike any other language.
 
never disclosed .. no spam either
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum secure enough that it would be very difficult to manipulate an outcome
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I guess there's enough of those to make it kind of obvious, no?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum let me think about that :p
 
!!afk food
 
3:48 PM
@IsaiahTaylor outcome of what? There are trainers for compiled games too that manipulate the outcome. I don't see how you win or lose anything by using JS in this case.
 
@KendallFrey my bad, I misread there.
 
My coworkers code...

    <footer>
        <div id="footer-wrap">
            <div class="footer-container">
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum might be a true statement. But its a pretty much higher effort for any compiled language, js is like a present
 
omg I just saw the pinned Caprica sentence, you guys are crazy
 
I thought you were referring to statically typed code.
 
3:49 PM
@jAndy anything you execute on your machine can't be hidden. Not only JS programs, but any program (written in java/C/C++/whatever) ninja'd
 
!!nudge 25 reasons
 
@towc Nudge #2 registered.
 
The redundancy, it hurts
 
@BartekBanachewicz I was, partially.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum ill link you to a little game i scribbled up...
 
3:50 PM
@BartekBanachewicz obvious? Most definitely not. The problem with saying "static/dynamic code is better" is that it's a very very bad generalization. There are different problem domains and different problems that justify different solutions, languages have tradeoffs (which are often a lot more meaningful than static type checking). That's why I think it's important to learn and know both static and dynamic languages, so you make better informed decisions when choosing your tools.
 
@KendallFrey in short, universally strong > weak, and static > dynamic in most of the cases, except prototyping, small applications and applications extendable by non-technical users
 
There are things I'd never consider doing in Haskell, and things I would never consider doing in C++, and things I'd never consider doing in JS...
 
@NickDugger <div class="footer-container-wrap" id="footer-.. wait what>
 
@BartekBanachewicz again, bad generalization.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum if browsers had a different language than JS, would you ever consider using it?
 
3:51 PM
@BartekBanachewicz "universally in most cases" I'm not sure whether to agree or not.
 
@FlorianMargaine I know I would
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum this is a simple word processor im working on in js for fun. this program would be super easy to manipulate by just looking at the js code and messing with the html realtime
ipt.hostzi.com/creations/tools/editor ... btw that link is secure... it is my personal js test website
 
JS' dynamic typing trips me up, always
 
@mrzepka The point is, he only needs the <footer> tag, the other two divs are extremely redundant.
 
@BartekBanachewicz you really need to give js like 1 week not touching any strict language
 
3:52 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Let me tell you what one of the differences between a junior and a senior developer are in my opinion. I've come to see this in more than one place and it's a very good rule of thumb. When you ask a junior to evaluate a problem they always offer a single solution.
 
infact, don't confuse "dynamic" with "dynamic scopes" or something, dangerous wording here which ECMAscript infact does NOT support
 
@FlorianMargaine probably.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum but that was just an analogy, which is pretty nice, now that I think about it. Overly optimized high-level code can also be unreadable and worse than slower, readable code vOv
 
it still uses static scoping, even in ES6 I guess
 
@jAndy we've already discussed it and we've already concluded that it did (and you shouldn't use it) :)
 
3:53 PM
@AbhishekHingnikar and what makes you think I haven't done that?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum is it bad to provide one solution at first then come back to bring more solutions after a few minutes of thinking about it?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum touche !
 
you can probably fake around it, but underneath it has no such thing as dynamic scopes
like Perl for instance
 
@BartekBanachewicz I don't understand what that statement is about, of course slower more readable code can be better. The key is knowing when to write each.
 
thanks guys :-)
 
3:54 PM
@jAndy yes there are and we already discussed this.
 
i got what i needed :D
\
 
!!google Eric Lippert JavaScript Dynamic Scoping with
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum and my point was that the vast majority of people won't ever need to write optimized low-level code
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum no it hasn't. Which version ? At least not the way I define dynamic scopes
 
3:54 PM
so they should learn more important things instead
 
@jAndy No offense but I'll take the opinion of the guy who designed languages first :P
 
lexical scoping is one the the fundamental ES things
 
@BartekBanachewicz I disagree with that, and it has not been my experience.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum where did he say that ES has dynamic scoping ? Still which version are we talking about
 
@jAndy only in strict mode. I can agree with "There is no dynamic scoping in JS proper (there is in the DOM in browsers but meh) under strict mode"
 
3:56 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum you could grep github for commits that say "optimized | faster | more efficient". You wouldn't find a lot of that.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Lippert isn't exactly a language designer. Hejlsberg invented the language, Lippert headed the team that implemented it.
 
@KendallFrey fair enough, I guess "Language Designer" wouldn't describe what he did fully.
 
most of the time functionality > performance
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum and there is no faking with with-statements involved ?
 
3:56 PM
@BartekBanachewicz yet you called JS code shitty haha.
 
I read that later
 
@jAndy this is dynamically scoped
 
still don't believe it :p
 
@jAndy go for it.
 
its a question of definition
 
3:57 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum I don't get it now.
 
Perls scoping is real dynamic imo
 
@jAndy where you stand on one side, and TC39 as well as people from other languages like Eric Lippert stand on the other :P
 
in short, what I wanted to say is "learn what you need"
 
@jAndy lisp has real dynamic scoping too, but nobody cares about lisp :(
 
don't learn low-level things if you don't need low-level optimizations or you want do focus on doing them
 
3:58 PM
@BartekBanachewicz I think I'm done arguing. This is too time consuming, I think you agree with me anyway and just want a way out at this point since you don't want to appear less competent than @Jhawins although you said some things I can only hope you regret saying earlier :P
 
I need to learn how to brew beer
 
and yes, lisp has static and strong typing
 
Lisp sucks :D
 
you suck
 
3:59 PM
and btw, you had to learn lisp this summer
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I seriously don't have issues with my self-esteem terrible enough to be afraid that someone will consider me less competent than person X.
 
or was it last summer?
 
I'd still heavily agree with Dmitry Soshnikov there
 
user1596138
@BenjaminGruenbaum Pfft admittance wouldn't mean he's less competent than me.
 
user1596138
3:59 PM
@BartekBanachewicz let's talk about how you're a guru of C++. Would you actually call yourself that?
 
@Jhawins only to recruiters :)
 
user1596138
I think that plays an important role in the conversation at hand.
 
a DevOps Ninja
 

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