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1:00 PM
I downloaded a web browser long ago for browsing the web
 
I haven't used a single really good IRC client, that's probably why I hate IRC.
 
You don't get people actively wanting to join the mailing list, so that they're willing to go through a convoluted process and download extra software
You want discussion to be as open as possible and as easy as possible to join
If you don't, well, you are not open source. Not really anyway.
 
@MadaraUchiha Do you have some examples of large projects that are exclusively GitHub issue based?
 
@NikiC iojs
nodejs
 
Any more?
 
1:01 PM
@MadaraUchiha Yeah. But you also need a good medium for discussion
GitHub Issues are inappropriate for internals' needs
 
I know Rust uses discourse next to github
 
ooh
 
@Andrea I don't mind a decent forum either, if threading is that important to you (hint, it's not really)
 
@MadaraUchiha Have you ever been in an internals thread?
 
A decent forum that's intractable from the browser is much better than the mailing lists.
@Andrea I have.
It's not hard to follow because of the lack of threading
 
1:03 PM
In fairness: my current mail client doesn't support hierarchical threading, and I survived internals with that
 
It's hard to follow because it's constrained in plain text with semi-comprehensible formatting, and everyone cutting the quotes in the middle.
Gtg for a meeting
 
Abe
slightly related: what client do you use for mail? thunderbird is so slow now that it's going backwards
 
user895378
@MadaraUchiha completely agree
 
@MadaraUchiha huh? inline quotes are helpful, especially when responding to longer emails
 
@Andrea Great, but that kills threadability.
 
1:06 PM
@MadaraUchiha Seriously… I don't even have any tool to open news:// protocol?!
 
@MadaraUchiha what? how, exactly?
 
@MadaraUchiha Inline quotes are really helpful, more than everything else. It starts getting worse if the mail client doesn't recognize plain text quotes and formats them incorrectly.
 
Meeting ttyl
 
@kelunik thankfully all good mail clients do recognise them :)
 
how create a table made of two tables ? (two tables has the same column)
 
Abe
1:13 PM
@Sajad JOINs
 
@Abe I have not any equal content for ON in join
 
Abe
then how you think to match rows, with magic? :P
 
@Abe I don't need to match, I just want to mix them !
maintable = table1 . table2;
 
@Sajad full outer join
 
Abe
@Sajad UNION
 
1:17 PM
So no foreign key (excellent database schema :P )
 
@NullPoiиteя Id is foreign !
 
Abe
he just wants to concat two tables, i believe
 
@Sajad than join with that ;)
 
@Abe why would you need to do that
 
table1:
+---------+
|col1|col2|
|-----|-----|
|111|222|
+---------+

table2:
+---------+
|col1|col2|
|-----|-----|
|333|444|
+---------+

I want this:
+---------+
|col1|col2|
|-----|-----|
|111|222|
|333|444|
+---------+
 
1:21 PM
@Sajad why do you have two tables with the same columns?
 
Abe
@Andrea i don't know, ask him :P
 
@Andrea I don't know how should I explain the reason ! long story !
 
@Sajad maybe you should read the book teresko suggested?
 
@RonniSkansing that book is english :) that is not useful for me
 
user895378
Question: is it possible to use reflection to get all the exposed constants for an extension (like ext/pcntl, for example)?
 
1:31 PM
@Sajad you are using English here :D
 
user895378
 
@Sajad maybe there is a similar book translated to your language?
 
@NullPoiиteя I use of translata.google for writing here !
6
@RonniSkansing yes there is a similar, I will read it.
 
sounds horrible, learning English isn't hard nut though my grammar skills sucks)
 
Am I the only one who think this would be nice?
class Foo
{
    public function set(DateTime $datetime = new DateTime())
    {

    }
}
 
1:40 PM
hii
@PeeHaa yes.
 
Abe
@PeeHaa not only u
 
Why would you want it as a parameter when it could even be inside the parenthesis?
 
Because php is not javascript where you manually have to check for undefined?
 
@PeeHaa meh:
function set(DateTime $datetime = null) {
	if ($datetime == null) {
		$datetime = new DateTime();
	}
}
 
33 secs ago, by PeeHaa
Because php is not javascript where you manually have to check for undefined?
 
1:41 PM
YE MAN!
THAT IS BEAST
@PeeHaa Please put commas in the right places for us to get the correct interpretation.
 
?
 
I refer the honourable gentlemen to be earlier 'meh'.
 
:-)
 
It could be like:
'Because php is not javascript, where you manually have to check for undefined?'
or
it would mean
 
Why google doesn't serve more than 1000 results
 
1:43 PM
javascript is where you manually have to check for undefined
lol
@NeelIon Cuz idk
I searched: "l0l" and got About 573,000 results (0.28 seconds)
 
@HassanAlthaf If you cannot read the sentence I just wrote I feel bad for you son. I've got 99 problems but that comma aint one
 
I think there's a lot of syntax we could have.....but a lot of it really doesn't allow anything new to be done, and confuses beginner to intermediate programmers......just to allow people who know that syntax to save a bit of typing, or a line of code.
 
@PeeHaa Sorry, daddy.
 
user895378
Question: Is it ever a good idea for a library to define things in the global namespace?
 
@Danack I could agree with that. It's just that it clutters up my method body :(
 
1:45 PM
Hmm
 
I prefer having a Singleton class for defining stuff
 
To submit to the PHPNW15 CFP, I need a photo
 
@rdlowrey Imo nope
 
I wonder if I can include an ElePHPant in it...
 
@rdlowrey I define stuff in a singleton class.
And access it whenever I need.
 
1:46 PM
@rdlowrey that's the wrong question, haha.
 
user895378
@PeeHaa I'm having a disagreement with Bob about this and I need to know if I'm just being ridiculous.
 
Should be…
 
Without further info I would say hell no. Keep your crappy lib stuff inside your crappy namespace please :D
 
@rdlowrey Answer: Yes.
 
user895378
Okay, then perhaps I should be more specific.
 
1:47 PM
:P
 
echo "escapes is the best library evarr!", \r, \n;
 
Question: Is it a good idea for a library to define global constants (which usually are defined by an extension) in case they don't exist? [pcntl signal constants in this case]
^ that's the right question…
 
user895378
PHP only exposes signal constants via ext/pcntl ... We handle signals with any one of pecl/libevent, pecl/ev, ext/pcntl or php-uv. Of these only php-uv defines signal handling constants.
 
@bwoebi What happens when at some point I install said extension?
 
@bwoebi Answer: Yes, polyfilling is fine.
> in case they don't exist
 
1:48 PM
Does it check it?
 
@Andrea Ah, that's the word.
 
user895378
It's my opinion that it makes more sense to define MyLib\SIGINT, etc instead of putting them all in the global namespace
 
user895378
Because ext/pcntl isn't part of php the standard library
 
user895378
And those constants shouldn't be treated as part of php in the first place.
 
if (!defined("PHP_INT_MIN")) {
    const PHP_INT_MIN = ~PHP_INT_MAX;
}
 
1:49 PM
@Andrea Pfff yeah I should read...
 
@rdlowrey well, it isn't, but it's bundled and enabled by default.
 
user895378
@bwoebi which isn't reliable as we know
 
Well if only a single ext does add them I'm not sure @bwoebi
 
@rdlowrey and hence, I'm saying that polyfilling is fine.
 
user895378
I don't see any drawback to MyLib\SIGINT ... but I see potential confusion about global namespaced constants
 
1:50 PM
Now if it was some standard thing that all but one ext does that would be another thing
 
user895378
I don't think a polyfill for extension constants makes sense. I think they should be defined as namespaced constants since they're only intended for use in my one library.
 
@NullPoiиteя learning any new language is difficult. Talking about programming with it even moreso.
 
user895378
It's not a polyfill library.
 
So not a real polyfill
 
@rdlowrey the drawback is confusion if the one code is using pcntl constants, the others library constants and then having a big WTF. But I don't see any drawback to global namespace polyfilling here.
 
1:51 PM
Ninja'd
 
user895378
@bwoebi It's not a polyfill
 
It is not indeed
 
@rdlowrey How isn't it?
 
user895378
People have to know how to use the library.
 
user895378
@bwoebi because ext/pcntl constants aren't standard functionality in all php distributions
 
1:52 PM
@rdlowrey It's as easy as forgetting one use constant import.
 
user895378
@bwoebi which isn't possible in php 5.5 which we support
 
@rdlowrey in the typicial Linux distros it's always present, AFAIK.
 
user895378
@bwoebi Windows is a thing
 
user895378
I refuse to put constants that only apply for my library in the global namespace.
 
@rdlowrey I have no idea how signals even work on Windows.
 
user895378
1:53 PM
@bwoebi very poorly. It's only possible for us to use them with php-uv
 
@rdlowrey that wasn't my point. I just mean that it's very easy to make the mistake.
 
user895378
that's why they shouldn't be in the global namespace
 
@rdlowrey do they even support POSIX signals?
 
user895378
@bwoebi you have to know how to use the library
 
user895378
@bwoebi very limited. libuv does a lot of voodoo to make it work
 
user895378
1:54 PM
And even then you can only use a handful of signals in windows
 
I would have to agree with @rdlowrey on this fwiw
 
mhmhmhm.
okay. not sure. … Any advice @Andrea ?
 
user895378
I don't see how it's difficult to say that if you're using Amp\onSignal() it expects an Amp\SIG* constant
 
user895378
IMO magically pretending global SIG* are the same across all environments is harmful
 
It's not difficult, it's just very easy to make the mistake to use the wrong one and have surprises on windows.
 
user895378
1:56 PM
@bwoebi no it's not?
 
Okay, what exactly is the problem, and what's your proposed solution?
Not sure I fully understand
 
4 mins ago, by bwoebi
@rdlowrey It's as easy as forgetting one use constant import.
 
user895378
9 mins ago, by rdlowrey
PHP only exposes signal constants via ext/pcntl ... We handle signals with any one of pecl/libevent, pecl/ev, ext/pcntl or php-uv. Of these only php-uv defines signal handling constants.
 
You're consdering polyfilling POSIX constants PHP provides that aren't always there?
 
user895378
@Andrea php doesn't provide them -- ext/pcntl does
 
1:57 PM
yeah
 
@rdlowrey same thing for my purposes
 
@Andrea Not just polyfilling. Making them up in (most?) cases
 
Hmm, okay, you can't safely fill that in
 
user895378
@PeeHaa yes, making them up
 
user895378
This is not something that belongs in the global namespace
 
1:58 PM
That's just not the same thing as polyfilling
 
user895378
ext/pcntl doesn't exist in windows
 
Oh, well. I'm confused now.
 
user895378
I'm not.
 
Filling in, say, PHP_INT_MIN is fine - you know what its value should be, you aren't breaking anything
 
user895378
There is literally no drawback to exposing Amp\SIGINT, etc. Putting them in the global namespace from your library is just lying.
 
1:59 PM
yeah
Though maybe warn people that they're only there for Amp's use?
 
user895378
@Andrea exactly
 
@rdlowrey well, I'm undecided now…
 
user3119231
Anyone knows what this means? Warning: symlink(): Could not fetch file information(error 3)
 
We can't avoid exporting constants for now, sadly
 
@Andrea enums would make it easier…
 
user895378
2:01 PM
Beyond this, the values of the constants come from different places depending on your extension environment. It really doesn't make sense to put them in the global namespace.
 
So long as that's true... it's the best we can do
 
user3119231
symlink(getenv("HOMEDRIVE").getenv("HOMEPATH")."\\Desktop\\".$company." sBusiness", "192.168.2.104/sBusiness/index.php");
 
(I don't know why Knowing me, knowing you came into my head when I said that, but it did. Damnit ABBA.)
 
@Maurize Do you know what a symlink is?
 
2:02 PM
I didn't ask for a link
 
user3119231
"creates a Symbol link"
 
@Maurize symbolic links are aliases for file paths. They're not like Windows links.
 
And what kind of path is this "192.168.2.104/sBusiness/index.php"?
 
user3119231
this explains much :D
 
user3119231
So I have to create a file -> .ink on desktop
 
2:03 PM
@Maurize What I think you wish to make is a Windows .url file. I think there's a way to do that with COM
@Maurize For some reason, Windows makes web links be .url instead of .lnk, but yes
 
user3119231
@Andrea yes, & yes. & I will find a way :D
 
@Maurize Apparently it's a plain text file, easy to make! :) lyberty.com/encyc/articles/tech/…
"CR and LF" means you put "\r\n" at the end of each line
 
user3119231
@Andrea easy going. thank you! This helps me a lot.
 
Glad to help!
Oh, you can probably omit most of the fields
You probably just need URL= and nothing more
$file = getenv("HOMEDRIVE").getenv("HOMEPATH")."\\Desktop\\".$company." sBusiness.url";
$url = "192.168.2.104/sBusiness/index.php";
file_put_contents($file, "[InternetShortcut]\r\nURL=" . $url);
I'm not sure, but I think that's all you need
 
user3119231
Yeah I know. got this already but with file write :D
 
2:10 PM
:)
 
user3119231
yep working perfectly! :D
 
Good to hear!
@NikiC Oh yeah, I was going to say earlier. If zend_string* is no longer a proper pointer type, you could make the typedef contain the pointer.
 
@rdlowrey If it touches php core, as in password_compat, then sure. Otherwise, hell no. Imho :-)
 
Is there anybody here that can temporarily remove my site from the Feeds list? I'm about to make a lot of changes to my blog and I don't wanna spam the room
 
Hold on
 
2:21 PM
rdlowrey has stopped a feed from being posted into this room
 
user895378
I win
 
> Oops! Something Bad Happened!
Goddamnit @rdlowrey. That is the second ninja you pull on me today!
:P
 
Thanks
 
I love writing libraries for myself. They are opinionated towards my personal goal and I don't have to care about what other people (think they) need
Closed open source FTW!
 
@NikiC, I think you told me that The Magicians sucked
you were right
 
2:25 PM
@PeeHaa That's exactly what Open / Closed principle is about.
 
what a depressive and annoying piece of slag
 
@Jimbo :D
 
Abe
@PeeHaa lol
 
Also heads up @rdlowrey @Jimbo @Danack I am going to give auryn another go for a new project. Expect stupid questions in 3... 2...
 
I <3 Auryn
It makes other container seem stupid imo
 
2:29 PM
@rdlowrey How many ninja tags did we have so far since v1?
 
@cspray it's not too hard to do, see what the competition is
 
user895378
@kelunik I did another one a couple of days ago for TimeoutException but that's all done now
 
@cspray It really does. Even Larahell now uses something similar apparently
 
@cspray Good. I have another victim to answer my stupid and urgent questions :P
 
user895378
@cspray ikr. Dependency injection is supposed to be simple
 
2:30 PM
@rdlowrey Yeah, I saw that there was at least another one.
 
user895378
If it's complicated you're doing it wrong.
 
@Jimbo Well man if the Larapukes artisans are using it must be good
 
Did anybody follow the mozilla (and others) SSL initiative?
 
@rdlowrey As a general rule I'd say that libraries should not be polluting the global namespace. The only reason I could think to do so is something like github.com/ircmaxell/password_compat
@PeeHaa Do you have a link?
 
@PeeHaa letsencrypt.org? I know of it, but it hasn't launched yet
 
2:35 PM
@cspray letsencrypt
@AllenJB IIRC they were going to build a cli tool to easily generate keys right? Because I kinda need something like that for my current project :)
* keys and certs I mean
 
15 mins ago, by Jimbo
@rdlowrey If it touches php core, as in password_compat, then sure. Otherwise, hell no. Imho :-)
;-)
 
^ is a real polyfill
 
I've actually started to believe that I should be prefixing a vendor onto my libraries
Cspray\LibName instead of just LibName
 
@PeeHaa Yeah - I think I saw somewhere that they may have already released (an early version) of that in a github repo
 
\o/ That would totally solve the problem I am facing now
 
2:38 PM
@PeeHaa Yes, there will be a CLI tool that automatically renews your certs etc.
 
@kelunik Only renew or also first validation?
I want to send out boxes that on first boot get a valid cert
 
@PeeHaa Both. I think they open a custom port and serve a small HTTP request or so.
 
Excellent!
 
2:56 PM
Has anyone ever created a project that may require a little extra setting up to get working, so included like a vagrant file or similar to get it working straight away?
 
@Jimbo Miaou
Ask @FlorianMargaine
 
Hmm, I just googled Miaou github and it looks like they include docker and vagrant stuff
 
@Jimbo php docs / php-web?
 
Anonymous
anyone has a good idea for a new github project?
 
Stupid
 
Anonymous
3:03 PM
@PeeHaa I did't get it.
 
Anonymous
what was it? just curious
 
Neh. I forgot how to read
 
Anonymous
If the idea was stupid, then I want it @PeeHaa
 
@samaYo Github project idea generator
 
> PeeHaa
3:01 PM
said: :24830685 new project or existing project?
@samaYo What about fixing feedr?
 
3:06 PM
@samaYo How about Laravel v 0.2? I heard 0.1 is having issues...
 
Anonymous
@PeeHaa I was going for new, but i'll take a look.
 
Anonymous
@Jimbo eww
 
Yeah I cannot really come up with something new atm
 
@samaYo Improved NNTP and web interfaces for news.php.net (web interface could allow posting for logged in users)
 
^ that's rather nice
 
3:08 PM
Maybe that'll stop people trying to insist the mailing lists should be moved to github issues
 
Anonymous
@PeeHaa I was thinking of a new logger with sms capabilities, that way I get to play with VOIP and stuff ... cool.
 
Anonymous
@AllenJB ehh, let the internals take care of that :D
 
Abe
question: should Iterator's constructor call rewind() internally?
 
@samaYo A full blown PHP upgrade checker / analyzer
 
Abe
or read: should calling rewind() be optional for the first iteration?
 
3:13 PM
@samaYo Nope, but you could help making other projects awesome. ;-)
 
Anonymous
@PeeHaa hmm, what's that? like an rpm package, or composer?
 
@samaYo An analyzer which finds deprecated / obsolete code with the extra bonus of the ability to automatically fix it with the extra bonus of sending github PRs with the fixes
 
Anyone knows a good book series? I am looking for something in fantasy or sci-fi genres.
 
Abe
@PeeHaa that exists already, github.com/skynet/model-101
 
@Abe 404
 
Abe
3:18 PM
#thatwasajoke
 
So, for the PHPNW15 CFP I have to include a picture
tempted to use the Christmas hat one
Ah, but it must be landscape
 
hahaha
nah, needs to be an actual picture of me
guess it's crappy-white-wall-selfie-with-an-ElePHPant time
 
Abe
i want an elephpant too O_O
 
@Abe occasionally you get a chance to buy them :)
sometimes there's a Kickstarter
 
Abe
3:22 PM
what was the site again?
 
Anonymous
@PeeHaa sounds nice, but no doubt would it would be quite a challenge. Specially connecting to github and authentication to which I am unfamiliar with.
 
@Abe there isn't one really, you just have to be around when one's made
 
Anonymous
i would also have to use a fullstack framework :/
 
@Andrea [except that your selfies aren't crappy, but okay ^^]
 
they're usually in limited batches, stuffed toys are expensive
@bwoebi this one surprisingly isn't, but the ones I take for use in portraits tend to be
 
3:23 PM
@samaYo Connecting to GitHub is pretty easy. They have really great documentation.
 
@samaYo That's why it would be a good project for you. If you only do things you are familiar with you make no progress
 
@Andrea ah
 
@bwoebi my passport and student ID photos are both pretty awful :p
 
Sorry three pings because stupid
 
@Andrea hehe, happens to me too^^
 
3:24 PM
 
Abe
@samaYo what are your options currently? i have several OS projects i want to work on and all relatively easy, but working all by myself is boring #foreveralone
 
@Andrea I sometime need to get a cute elePHPant too :-D
 
@Andrea What is that orange one from?
 
@Andrea Yay :-) How many do you have? I got orange, purple, and black for equal opportunities.
 
Abe
lol
 
3:27 PM
@PeeHaa php[architect]
 
An cool
 
@Jimbo I have the orange php[architect], purple PHPWomen and black AmsterdamPHP ones
 
Same as me then!
 
My orange one is named Sara (guess who I named it after!), purple one Jenny, and I still didn't name the black one
 
Anonymous
I would love to collaborate, but I can't keep up, E_NO_INTERNET_CONNECTION which is why I helped founded github.com/phparsenal (came up with the name :) but could not commute regularly, so I got left back. @Abe
 
Anonymous
3:29 PM
@Abe but let me know, if time is not a factor and the project is good .. then I'm in.
 
I need an elephpant for my keys.
 
Which pic should I use?
 
The first. The first ones looks like you are about it the latter looks like you don't trust it :P
 
I think the first was better
 
@Andrea the first
 
3:31 PM
@PeeHaa hahaha
 
Abe
@samaYo for example, i'm building a proper phpdocumentor/apigen documentation generator thingy using nikic's php parser. would that be interesting for you?
 
Also I issed a letter there
 
First one's slightly awkward, but eh. It has a cute ElePHPant.
 
^^
 
it's less boring than most photos used by conference speakers :p
 
3:33 PM
hehe
 
Abe
the biggest issue with that is that phpdoc is far from being standard. php-fig is failing again
 
@Abe php-fig is great to be annoyed about
 
I like this picture so much I think I'll crop it and use it as my avatar
 
Abe
@Andrea edit elephpant's eyes so that you stare each other :D
 
@Abe I could...
I'm not sure I should, though :p
 
Abe
3:35 PM
:P
he's avoiding eye contact atm
 
Anonymous
@Abe nope sorry. Not a priority for me, also this one seems good github.com/ApiGen/ApiGen
 
@Jimbo yes, miaou provides both vagrant and docker builds
 
Abe
@samaYo it's ok, but not as good as it could be
 
how to create drag and drop menu builder using php mysql jquery
 
Abe
throws garlic
3
also, i'm working on a data structures framework @samaYo that's way harder for a novice
 
3:41 PM
Avatar updated! :D
 
Anonymous
@Abe no thanks :)
 
Abe
what are you interested in, then?
 
Anonymous
@Abe A new router :P
 
Abe
there are a bunch already
 
Anonymous
3:46 PM
anything in php that helps you to get hired is fine by me @Abe
 
Protip: use your gravatar on your personal site. Saves you updating it manually :)
 
Weird looking parrot you got yourself there @Andrea
 
@Fabor it keeps saying "pieces of NULL, pieces of NULL"
 
lol
 
checks code
 
Anonymous
3:53 PM
despite hanging out in this room regularly, I am relatively a newbie in the programming world. I started html in 2011, and everything else followed after that .. I am still in the beginner phase :/ so make sure to throw me teh small bonez for now :) @Abe
 
Oh, I misspelled $kind
 
Abe
@samaYo well, it's not rocket science either :P i'm a noob too
as @PeeHaa suggested. you get your skills improved only by working on challenging stuff
 

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