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12:00 AM
@tereško You ever watch playthroughs of games? Be it Twitch or Youtube?
 
Abe
@Andrea lol
 
@tereško yeah. I'm not sure I'm a great storyteller, though :p
 
@Fabor on youtube. Few that I did not intend to play. But I cannot find the channel now.
still looking
 
Andrea, you're supposed to be a great Go player by now
 
hah
if I'd kept up with it :p
 
12:06 AM
@Andrea do it!
 
I'd feel like I'm lying, the real talk would be nowhere near that exciting :p
 
Just create WikiPHPLeaks, you could be PHPs Julian Assange.
 
Also, I'm still afraid they'll be made at me for having an Abstract under 250 words.
 
@Andrea don't worry about that at all...
@Fabor Wiphpileaks
 
should I use that line verbatim?
17 mins ago, by Andrea
"In this talk, you'll hear the TRUE STORY of how PHP defied its principles and became like Java. It's a story of big egos, backroom dealings, and public outrage."
 
12:15 AM
heh
 
@tereško Hmmm, not seen this guy before, got some good games in the repertoire though.
Basically any Lets Play with Bethesda games is good with me
 
@Fabor they are not "top let's players" but they have up to 4 people there talking bullshit and making fun of it
I watched their Mass Effect 3 (in which they managed to break the game at the very beginning)
 
@Andrea ensure that it is in jest. If it comes out too literal that will push people away
 
adding "Well, I am slightly exaggerating, but it did have drama."
 
12:18 AM
@tereško So you didn't play it?
 
@Fabor I still haven't got past ME1
it's not all that entertaining to play
 
I heard a lot of people who loved ME1 were disappointed with the direction the franchise took, gameplay wise.
 
@tereško ditto
A friend gave me it on Steam as a gift
 
I enjoyed ME2, not picked up ME3. Skipped ME1.
 
well, my problem is that I have started ME1 for 4 times now.
 
12:20 AM
@tereško I've tried it twice
 
Skip to ME2.
 
1st time the start was mildly bearable .. 2nd time it was annoying .. 3rd time I got pissed because it was not working with my 3440x1440
and yesterday I gave 4th try
 
Did you start with FC3 too?
 
huh ?
I had played FC1, didnt finish it but got close to the end
 
Oh, and 2?
 
12:22 AM
nope, have not played it
 
Ah good. 3 improved a lot on 2. Man so much travelling.
How did Crysis go?
 
@Andrea became like Java? o_o
 
it's not like FC games have a shared storyline
 
@bwoebi hyperbole :D
 
@Fabor it's functional, but looks like "delta" difficulty is too hard .. I feel like playing Flashpoint (the original one)
 
12:25 AM
Maximum Strength! Throws chicken
 
@Andrea I'd drop the "It's" and just say "A story of big egos, backroom dealings and public outrage" … Also… If that's really going to be your talk, I'd like to read or listen to that :o
 
Okay, actual draft for CFP: gist.github.com/TazeTSchnitzel/efb75b5675d991082962 @ircmaxell @tereško @NikiC
 
@Fabor that powerup UI is a new kind of terrible
 
There was a decent multiplayer community for it. And looking at the new style of CoDs, you could say it almost kinda inspired it. Titanfall too.
In the "Why we should accept your talk" perhaps include something about why it's important for developers to hear/learn about what you have to say.
 
@Andrea Looks good … This particular new feature is possibly the most high-profile addition. I just disagree with this. I feel like ?? and Exception/Error is going to have more impact… But yeah, highly subjective.
 
12:32 AM
well, it's one of the big ones
 
Why is it important I should learn about Scalar Type Hints?
 
@Andrea looks ok, but .. dunno .. the language feels a bit off. Like you cannot decide between serious and funny tone.
 
1) They're useful in writing better PHP code, and 2) Even if you don't use them, code you work with probably will
@tereško yeah
 
@Andrea So including that in the "why" might be good.
 
It's a bit too jokey
 
12:33 AM
or a bit too serious
 
@Fabor That bit's only shown to the organisers, but yes, I'll do that
 
basically, commit to one path (young padawan)
 
Depends on who reads it, I personally like Jokey. Phil does it well.
 
I don't know if I do, which is a problem, possibly
@tereško Trying to do two things at once may present a challenge
Previous idea suffered from that as well
 
@Andrea I know but it's convincing them why they need to accept your talk which is ultimately the benefit of the developer using it.
 
12:35 AM
@Fabor Right
 
@tereško Actually, when I read it, it has a nice touch: In the end things ended up well… but it was a long way until there.
 
@Andrea how much time do you have?
or is the 1st august the last day ?
 
"by 2nd August"
 
of course it is
 
which I would assume means I can submit on the 2nd, but no later
 
12:37 AM
True university student fashion
 
hah
 
@Andrea add more to the abstract about how you will talk about why it was a difficult issue. Not just that it was
 
I think I made my tea too thin
 
@ircmaxell Good idea
 
@Andrea Also, thinking about it… I'm a bit annoyed that we have return types being weak by default… Especially because we might have a hard time to change it in 7.1 or similar.
 
12:38 AM
@bwoebi Yeah
You can go from strict to weak, but it's a one-way street.
 
yep
It feels like 7.0 is the time where that needs to be fixed, but I fear a lot bringing it up on internals may rise a lot of discussion with the end that RMs say it's too late for 7.0 :-/
 
Yeah
Might be worth a shot, but I imagine RMs would be rather upset with you
 
user895378
I never understood the point of having weak types in the first place.
 
@rdlowrey all your incoming data is strings
 
^ taht
 
user895378
12:45 AM
Well, I understand that part of it :)
 
user895378
It's the same "I use php as a templating engine and not a programming language" approach that has always been used to justify the WTF behaviors.
 
user895378
I understand that those people don't want their templating language to become more difficult to use just to accommodate folks who want to use it as a programming language.
 
No, it's not that, it's very much a programming thing
C is weakly-typed, by some definitions anyhow
 
user895378
If it's a programming thing then it's just pointless.
 
user895378
Types are either useful or they aren't.
 
12:48 AM
It's not pointless, really
 
user895378
It is.
 
Implicit type conversions save you time
 
@Andrea because it's up to compiler?
 
user895378
If you can't rely on the type then there's no reason to have it.
 
user895378
@Andrea then you don't need the type
 
12:48 AM
@rdlowrey no, you do
 
user895378
no, you need a scalar type
 
You may not need explicit type declarations, if that's what you mean
 
user895378
so don't add them
 
@rdlowrey as long as typing is optional, weak mode will make life easier
 
Well, for people used to weakly-typed code, dealing with strictly-typed libraries would be a pain
 
user895378
12:51 AM
@ircmaxell which was kind of my point in saying "people don't want their templating language to become more difficult to use just to accommodate folks who want to use it as a programming language."
 
user895378
It's easier and "probably" correct most of the time
 
@rdlowrey well, I think the optional typing is a strongpoint of PHP, not a problem
hence that weak mode will always be a thing
 
user895378
@ircmaxell Completely agree
 
user895378
Which is why I think the types should be strong lol
 
user895378
12:52 AM
you already have the option of weak types by not specifying them
 
> Well, I am exaggerating, but it did have a little bit of drama
^^ feels forced
@rdlowrey fair enough :-D
 
Hmm
Any suggestion how to rewrite that part?
 
@Andrea except for that one line, I like the overall abstract
 
user895378
Anyway, Friday is not the preferred time to pull off all the scalar typing scabs :)
 
That's mostly there to make it not too jokey. I could remove it, but I want to avoid hyping it too much.
 
12:54 AM
@rdlowrey It's Saturday in UTC, so … ;-D
 
> It's a story of big egos, backroom dealings, and betrayed principles; but mostly just political bullshit.. More importantly, you'll also learn about the end result:
not sure there, but an idea
 
I'd be a little cautious about using the word 'bullshit'
 
sure
but you know what I'm trying to do there
 
hmm
 
/me is a bit intoxicated
 
12:58 AM
> It's a story of big egos, backroom dealings, and betrayed principles; but mostly just playing politics.
perhaps?
or 'political nonsense' I suppose.
'BS' avoids saying the S-word directly
 
I like the nonsense word
 
what, 'political nonsense'?
 
user895378
@ircmaxell \o/
 
user895378
I'm about to add another empty to the side of the desk
 
I wonder if PHP programmers drink more
(Would be depressing, but not entirely surprising)
 
user895378
1:03 AM
I find 9pm and later is by far my most productive time from a "good code" standpoint ... and it improves as I approximate the Ballmer Peak
 
@Andrea it's a race between JS and PHP
 
@tereško JavaScript is tolerable
It's bad, but in a few well-understood ways
 
PHP is tolerable too
 
Whereas PHP seems to have demons lurking behind every single corner
 
@Andrea I don't drink… But that's probably the reason why I work more on php-src than I'm actually writing PHP :-D
2
 
1:05 AM
For example, JS has a bad weak-typing system too. But at least different arithmetic operations don't use different rules!
@bwoebi hahahaha
 
@Andrea that because you have had very personal experience with how it is implemented. Do you think people who implement the JS engines for browsers think very highly of JS?
 
@tereško It's not the implementation, I mean that PHP really does have user gotchas everywhere
there's even worse stuff if you've worked on -src and know where to look
 
@Andrea yeah, even C code with compiler specific differences in assembly causing pointers in gcc to point to invalid addresses while it's fine with clang is better than PHP. (talking about __builtin_frame_address())
 
@ircmaxell how are you able to switch jobs over one weekend... there's no policy of like, giving your previous employers a month's notice before leaving?
 
@iroegbu he did? It's just today his last day at google.
 
1:09 AM
@iroegbu I did give them a month's notice
 
oh... okay
 
@ircmaxell okay, updated
 
@Andrea I like it
 
:D
I think I can fit this into 50 minutes. This is a much, much, much smaller scope than my previous talk idea
 
:-)
 
1:15 AM
@Andrea your abstract suggests that names will be thrown... It's not a wise idea imho
 
@Andrea "Had I more time, I would have written a shorter letter" :)
 
the throwing of names in a specific context is not good. But overall, there was a lot of drama
 
@FlorianMargaine Ah, no, I want to avoid that
 
@ircmaxell Yea, I adopt much of his same architect philosophies :)
 
In fact, if at all possible, I think I'll avoid using people's names
 
1:20 AM
@Sherif that presentation is amazing until he takes the function turn. Then it turns... odd
 
at least, not in any negative light
 
@Andrea feel free to use mine in whatever manner you see fit. Throw me under the bus. I can take it
I am not an innocent participant
 
heh
@ircmaxell I'm not either.
 
@rdlowrey I assume all your PHP 7 code will have declare(strict_types=1) :-)
 
But I don't really want to spend a lot of time shaming people, it's not really healthy
 
1:23 AM
@Andrea not arguing
 
The competing proposals would come up though
And their authors
 
user895378
@Trowski I guess ... it's such a PITA to add that everywhere.
 
Yeah, I haven't actually done it yet, but I should.
 
Luckily, IDEs make PITAs virtually non-existent these days ;)
 
There's no reason to have weak typing in a CLI app IMHO.
 
1:25 AM
I'm definitely not going to say something like "there was bad will on both sides", because I'm not a neutral observer
 
@Sherif Right, adding declare(strict_types=1) will only require replacing <?php with <?php declare(strict_types=1) (sorry about the multiple pings)
 
More or less
I'm sure someone will come up with some nifty <your favorite IDE here> plugin
 
@ircmaxell the only thing I'd get upset at you for would be allowing int->float, and I'm not sure on that one anyway :p
 
Probably even make it trivial to toggle it on/off on project/file level
 
@Andrea Wait, what's wrong with int->float?
 
1:29 AM
I also, on a completely off-topic note, I can't decide if this thing is actually a good gauge of anyone's programming skills or not hackerrank.com
I mean... once you start showing me typos in code and expect me to get excited about solving the problem... bleah
Even I don't make people fix typos
That's just stupid
 
@Trowski it might be considered an exception to the strictness
idk
 
@Andrea int->float is allowed with strict types.
 
@Trowski Yes. That's what I'm talking about
 
Yep, and maybe I missed something, but it seems like you disagree with that?
 
Well, sometimes I do object to it, sometimes I don't. On the one hand, it's an exception, meaning PHP isn't entirely strict. On the other hand, it could be considered a safe, widening conversion, which other languages accept here.
 
1:33 AM
@Andrea 99.8% of the time it's a safe transfer
 
@ircmaxell yeah
 
and the 99.999% of that it's what you mean
 
I see where you're coming from. I would argue that int->float would still be considered strict, since languages that are strictly typed like C allow it.
 
Floats are not expected to have absolute precision
@Trowski "Strictly-typed" is a bit nebulous, like "weakly-typed"
There's a degree of leniency
 
Right, "strict" really needs a definition with it depending on the language.
 
1:35 AM
@Trowski C isn't strictly typed
 
damn, it's over 4AM already
I need to do some sleeps
 
@ircmaxell I was using strictly-typed interchangeably with strongly-typed, but I guess that's not really correct.
Is any language truly strictly-typed?
 
yes. many
 
Depends on your definitions, but yes
 
My experience doesn't extend much beyond C/C++, JS, PHP, Java, and similar, so I was genuinely asking.
 
1:40 AM
strict and strong are often synonyms, by the way
 
Java is pretty strict
@Andrea disagree
 
@ircmaxell oh?
 
strict is the opposite of dynamic, strong is the opposite of weak
 
static is the opposite of dynamic
 
strict/dynamic is about how types change, strong/weak is about how types interact
 
1:42 AM
the fact we say strict/weak in PHP is kinda weird and probably at least partly my fault
the traditional pairs are strong/weak and static/dynamic
 
yesh
/me is off, later
 
goodnight!
 
Night!
Hmm... I'm going to have to look at the book from my languages class again.
So much theory slips away when you're just writing code.
 
heh
 
I love the stuff that @ircmaxell has been doing lately, makes me miss college.
 
1:49 AM
:-D
@NikiC is among the prime speaker list, this is awesome: 2015.phpconference.es
 
as are you!
Anyway, I'm off. Bye/night.
 
 
3 hours later…
4:58 AM
quiet in here
 
5:29 AM
too quiet
 
5:42 AM
@tereško I asked a question (I think) two weeks ago, and you answered me, but I did not save it at that time I forgot it now. My question was: the structure of tables (in database) for voting system.
you show me the structure of 3 tables. votes , users , posts
now I need to the columns of these tables. can you show me again ? thanks
you showed me *
 
5:57 AM
You can search chat... it's fully logged
 
@Orangepill OMG !!! how did you find it ..!! really tnx
 
@sajad see the box labeled search in the upper right.....that's how I found it
 
@Orangepill stackoverflow is perfect ! really perfect ! I like to know its creator (founder) !
 
6:23 AM
you can thank internet jesus ...
 
6:35 AM
can you guys help me.. i am stucked in my php code
5
 
6:51 AM
@deepsingh how you got stuck in your php code :D
 
@deepsingh just return
 
or die() :D
 
@NullPoiиteя that always works
 
true die(PHP) always works :D
 
@deepsingh so what is your issue
cool site csunplugged.org
 
6:57 AM
good mornin
 
@SergeyTelshevsky good morning
 
mornin @Sergey
 
7:40 AM
@NullPoiиteя I did and that does not answer my question.
 
@user3692125 stackoverflow.com/a/9288945/1723893 please google first
 
@NullPoiиteя how do I test execution time of script? In other words, how do I emulate a really time-consuming php script? Sleep is not an option because it does not count towards execution time on Linux.
@NullPoiиteя Whenever I search on google, I get how to MEASURE execution time, which is NOT what I am looking for.
 
@user3692125 What problem are you trying to solve?
 
I have to run a script which I can't afford to stop mid-way due to execution time or whatever other bottleneck. So I am trying to run a dummy script first that will take as long as the actual script so I can see if there are any bottlenecks.
 
why you care about it ?
 
7:47 AM
Sounds to me like you need to re-engineer the first script so that it can resume whatever it's doing if interrupted. Assuming processes will never be interrupted is generally a bad idea.
 
@AllenJB @NullPoiиteя I am charging credit and marking it in database as charged if payment processor comes back as success. If script halts in middle of parsing the result from payment processor and marking it in database, I have the risk of re-charging the card.
@AllenJB I know accidents can happen and in that case, I'll get in touch with payment processor to remove a payment but I want to plan ahead.
Payment processor does not provide a capability to see whether credit card was already charged for that amount today.
 
It sounds like you're trying to manually manage recurring payments / subscriptions. I would try to find a payment service provider that has that functionality built-in.
 
@Orangepill what this website is akll about dear
 
@AllenJB That's all long-term planning. I need to charge payments within a couple of hours.
 
I would use locks to prevent double payments - you lock (mark) an entry you're about try try charging, then if something goes wrong it remains locked and doesn't get retried until someone manually checks it
s/try try/to try/
 
7:55 AM
@AllenJB Very good idea... but do you know a way to mimic long execution time in PHP... using sleep is not an option on Linux.
 
bitbucket guys here?
 
I still don't get where the long execution time comes in - I'd expect making a payment to take no more than a couple of seconds. You then write the script so it works off a queue of payments - if it gets interrupted / restarted it simply picks up the next unlocked queue entry
and in particular why sleep doesn't help - sleep doesn't count towards process execution time according to "time", but the process is still essentially running
 
@AllenJB I'll implement your solution of locking and unlocking. However, I need to run payments RIGHT NOW...so I was hoping to find a quick script to see if I need to make any server tweaks.
 
Lol, Stas perfectly summarizied pho for me 😅 "if it doesn't make sense, do whatever and hope the
user is ok with that"
 
8:27 AM
mornings
 
8:59 AM
@RonniSkansing morning
 
9:56 AM
@Sajad you should be able to come up with a 3-table structure on your own
 
10:19 AM
@tereško yes, here is my structure:
Users (user_id | user_fname | user_lname | email | password | cookie | timestamp)
Items (item_id | item_title | item_content | item_type | tooal_votes | timestamp)
votes (vote_id | item_id | user_id | direction | timestamp)
I have a new question now, how store timestamp ? should I use of NOW() in sql ?
if yes, should I use of what column type for that ? (varchar ?) because NOW() returns both date and time
how store it ? (what col type)
 
for timestamps you usually would use a a default value
 
@tereško what is default value ?
NOW() function in sql ?
 
emm .. maybe you should go and learn SQL
seriously
there is a torrent for this somewhere on the internet
 
Or buy it
 
@Fabor I can not buying from amazon, my country is boycott
I have not pypal or credit cart
@tereško ha ha ha ! for undrestanding type column for storing time and data, should I read all of this book ? :)
 
10:32 AM
it's quite clear that you haven't actually learned SQL at any point
you have more gaps in the knowledge than there is knowledge
 
Oh, I detect onething: timestampe is a type in phpmyadmin :)
 
Morning
 
Morn, indeed
 
@PeeHaa good Morning
 
10:41 AM
so .. how many here have switched to Win10?
 
I'm going to wait a couple of months
 
not sure about "months" but I'm waiting too
 
can anybody tell me if there is any shelljs (github.com/arturadib/shelljs) like execution in cakephp? TIA
 
@tereško I still say Windows 7 was the best thing that ever came out of Microsoft.
 
@FFgTYnh no
also, please stop using that piece of crap
 
10:44 AM
@tereško, crap? which one, cake or shelljs?
 
Keeping in mind that I didn't upgrade my copy of Windows Server 2000 until they came out with Windows 7
 
@FFgTYnh of course cakephp
 
Everything in between was just crap
 
@tereško :)
 
@Sherif well XP was great too, for it's time
 
10:46 AM
@SergeyTelshevsky Yea fuck that shit
 
This is a pretty neat optimisation, I wonder if it would benefit PHP
PHP probably uses tiny constants strings even more than Objective-C does
 
@Andrea Nice
 
hello, i have a question, can anyone look at it? stackoverflow.com/questions/31678967/… it is realy importent for me.
 
The primary downside would be code bloat and an extra branch
 
10:52 AM
I hate what's wrong with my code questions.
 
But you reduce memory usage and save malloc() and free() calls
 
@Luïs there is an answer to your question.
 
A pretty weird answer
 
@SergeyTelshevsky: i know that but it don't help me, I have also the same problem
 
It doesn't help because his code is wrong, but your question is actually answered by the error message itself.
You cannot pass values by reference.
 
10:55 AM
@Luïs then you should comment that the answer doesn't solve your problem
 
But.. when all you're looking for is code you can copy/pasta ... :)
 

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