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11:00 AM
I'm software developer primarily, not web designer (or whatever).
self-called one, that is.
 
who do web design for you?
 
@Gordon Well, it's quite interesting but IMO it didn't work with the company I was in: most employees were doing internships and there was only 1 developer helping
 
me
 
Sem
@HamZa If you're using an opensource CMS, combined with plugin licenses and templates. You're not really much of a developer are you.
3
 
@Sem Word.
 
11:01 AM
@Sem I shall star that !
@Sem heh, I was even ordered to get ride of "copyright" notices, please don't remind me of these days ...
 
I am looking for good online billing system.. does anyone know? got landline customers.
 
@Gordon I see, well that scrum guy actually "translated" those units and divided a day in such units. So this is a wrong approach ?
 
@Gordon is that scrum thingy applicable in every team/task? Or it has specific purpose.
 
@webarto IMO not applicable with kids who try to not get the job done
 
@HamZa it's not wrong but it should be clear that there is no such thing as 3 points === 3.6 hours. It's an estimation after all. See mountaingoatsoftware.com/blog/…
 
Sem
@webarto I heard you can be a Scrum master in only 2 days if you have the cash :D
 
@Sem lol
 
@HamZa I have had issues with that methodology (or not), we spent more time discussing how should 3 persons implement something (in pieces), and it would be way faster and consistent if one person did it. Hope it makes sense.
 
@webarto exactly
 
@webarto Scrum is an agile methodology/framework. it fosters certain workflows and qualities that are supposed to improve the project. You need a team for it and discipline and you should have dedicated people working as scrum master and product owner
 
11:08 AM
@Gordon Exactly, was going to write that second sentence, that's the key.
 
I use use 2.5 hours on 5 points
 
@Sem getting the certification is indeed rather easy and the Scrum Alliance feels a lot like a sect or snowball system. However, just because you can do it in two days doesn't mean you'll be a good scrummaster
 
@Sem Paypal accepted? :D
 
I know this is a newbie question, but it's something I have never fully understood: when dealing with UTC, at what point should I convert the data to the user's timezone?
 
@webarto Is that like, a modern version of rock, paper, scissors?
 
Sem
11:09 AM
@Gordon How big do you think your team needs to be to see actual benefits of any type of agile framework?
 
@Greg output
 
@Greg Whenever it needs to be displayed
 
@webarto it would be a solo effort then though and scrum fosters cohesive teams which are supposed to perform better and leave the project in a better state in general. Also, the implementation would only rely on one person's skill then which could prove suboptimal then
 
Sem
@webarto I think so :)
 
11:12 AM
@Sem the suggested number for most of these is 5 +/- 2 which afaik is based on Miller's Law
 
On the moment I got : $timema = date('Y-m-d',strtotime($input));

Which basically outputs 2013-08-19. now its possible changing the value with a textbox but now I want when pressing an image that day goes +7 every click
Hows that possible?
 
hm.. that chrome cv-pls plugin is quite handy
 
@Tredged with JS ?
 
@HamZa Do you have an example rather then 'With JS?'
 
@Tredged Well my Question was more like are you doing it dynamically with JS or are you actually refreshing the page and doing it with PHP ?
 
11:15 AM
jQuery
 
@webarto hahaha
 
@HamZa Sorry didnt get that, the inputbox currently is with PHP enter (YEAR)W(WEEK) (2013W33) and I want it with the image part.
 
@Sem on a side note, you don't need an agile framework as long as you got skilled professionals with an agile mindset because they will figure out how to work through and improve through the project on their own.
 
@Gordon YES
 
@Tredged 3 options: 1. do some date manipulation with javascript and update respective dom object. 2. redirect to some page that will calculate date on php side and render UI. 3. combine 1 and 2, i.e. xhr
 
11:18 AM
"image part" o_O ?
Any ways you could do:
$timema = date('Y-m-d', strtotime("+7 day", strtotime($input)));
or
$timema = date('Y-m-d', strtotime("+7 days", strtotime($input)));
 
@webarto finding them is difficult though because of the Dunning Kruger effect
 
@HamZa I understand but I want on-click to change the current $timema to $timema +7
 
@Gordon "skilled professionals" two aspects which are very rare these days ...
@Tredged "on click" so javascript ?
 
@Gordon I don't have an issue with that, I don't mind saying to myself that I suck.
 
@HamZa <a href=""><img src="'></a> ?
 
11:20 AM
@Tredged ok just follow what @Leri said
 
Sem
@Gordon I'm in a two man army so it's not going to be that efficient anyway. I do want to know more about how managers and developers could communicate efficiently aside from time indications.
 
@Sem the best starting point would be if they'd communicate at all :)
 
lol
 
apart from that I believe communicating a clear intent as to what should be achieved and why are crucial.
but not how.
managers should not micromanage developers if they want to foster their creativity and initiative. Managers should set boundaries though for the devs to work in. Like "We need feature x to achieve y but it has to do in z whatever"
 
Sem
@Gordon They mostly start thinking about what they want when they have something to see and play with.
 
11:24 AM
@Gordon I'd say whether 'how' should be communicated depends on the level of the developers. Have seen some pretty hideous implementations.
People who decide to send 95 queries to a database in a foreach loop because IN syntax is too complex come to mind.
 
@SweetieBelle no. coaching juniors should be the effort of seniors. and seniors (hopefully) dont need to be told how to achieve the managers intent.
 
ORDER BY rand() LIMIT(1); is not as uncommon as you'd think either. :/
@Gordon By managers are we talking non-developers or lead developers?
 
@Tredged You can ask here.
 
Sem
@SweetieBelle I was referring to non-devs.
 
@SweetieBelle Non-devs. If the Manager happens to be the lead dev then he should see to it that the juniors get the support they need so they dont write code like that. after all he is called the lead dev for a reason then.
 
11:28 AM
@Gordon I've seen people who aren't juniors write horrible SQL. :(
@Gordon Devs who are comfortable in an area shouldn't be told how to do something. Here we tend to have a philosophy of asking others what they think of how we're doing something.
 
@SweetieBelle that might be but that doesnt change what I said :)
 
Though people who double check my code seem to just see my regex's and say 'Yeah it's fine' :/
 
@Leri Thanks, how would I fetch it into a variable then or so?
 
@SweetieBelle hey, how is that that you use a lot of regexes :O
 
@HamZa I use more than people want to read, usually. :P
 
11:30 AM
@Tredged E_UNCLEAR
 
want/can
 
@Sem as for communication from dev to manager. there is this technique called backbriefing. after the manager communicated the intent, the dev can inform the manager how he is going to achieve the goal. that could give the manager an idea whether the goal was understood.
 
@SweetieBelle lol, I could use 1 or 2 regexes in 4 months lol : no use cases:
 
@Gordon We do that too.
@HamZa I've used 2 this morning.
 
@SweetieBelle I shall say you have THE best job eveeer !
 
11:32 AM
@HamZa Well right now we're refactoring a lot of validation so regex's are useful. :D
 
Sem
@Gordon backbrieding == debriefing? I always see my time indication as some sort of debriefing.
 
@HamZa nah, he's doing Perl. He's got the worst job ever ;)
 
@Gordon I'm doing C++ :P
 
@SweetieBelle I don't always use regex, but when I do it's on stackoverflow
@Gordon lol
 
@HamZa I don't always use regex, but when I do I write 4 line megaliths.
3
 
11:33 AM
@SweetieBelle my condolences ;)
 
@Gordon I like C++, and perl. :P
 
Sem
@Gordon I'm not really a senior dev but we do have interns. I always teach them about SOLID principles and the pros and cons of frameworks. Also review the code from time to time. Other than that there is not much more I can do I guess
 
Anyone got any good horrible boss stories? Will accept client as boss replacement.
 
@Fabien I have a few about clients. :P
 
@Sem heh, do you need an intern ?
 
11:33 AM
@Fabien More 'useless client' than 'horrible client'
 
Do you think regex should be written to make more friendly and readable? :)
 
@user1246800 No, regex are readable.
 
@SweetieBelle Oh yeah? :)
 
@user1246800 That's easy using the x modifier :)
 
Sem
@HamZa Not only are they free workers, some stay as starters.
 
11:34 AM
@Sem you could pair with them. saves you the code review and gives them more immediate feedback
 
@Fabien Things like 'You didn't tell me I needed to install php on my server to host a php site.'
And 'Why can't you access my customer records without a database password?'
 
@SweetieBelle lol
 
@Sem well I worked for free for a long time, so I don't really mind :p
 
I'm not a senior in title or pay grade, but I get treated like one a lot of the time. :P
 
@Sem no, debriefing is more like a retrospective. backbriefing is before you start.
 
Sem
11:36 AM
@Gordon Mostly I give them a start by making a class that uses an interface. Classes are pretty isolated so most of the time I might just be using a couple of methods after it's done.
 
@Fabien Once we had a client, we had let him upload an image. We specifically told him to upload an image say 600x200 px. We got an email from the client that it doesn't work. We checked what the client did and we found out that he renamed the file to 600x200 instead of resizing it (facepalm)
 
My COO once came in and asked every (10) devs to listen to his great new idea.
COO: "We're going to send a marketing email... to our unsubscribed list"
 
@HamZa lol
 
Sem
@Gordon I'll look into it
 
@SweetieBelle respect
 
11:38 AM
Oh another awesome client asked me where he could get a pirate copy of Windows server to host his site.
 
@HamZa heh
 
@SweetieBelle hahahaha
 
I told him I have something better and installed Debian. :P
 
lol
 
@HamZa Clients should not be resizing images. :p
 
11:39 AM
@Gordon As long as you give the devs enough time to come up with a coherent report after the initial briefing. I know a lot of people who would expect it in the same meeting :-(
 
Heh, I work in a DIY shop, sometimes you'll get crazy with clients
@Leri lol, it's a CMS !
 
@DaveRandom there is a reason why Dilbert comics exists ;)
 
@Duikboot Let's think of an idea to make a billion bucks on the side. I could do with being filthy rich.
 
My Mum once informed me the links weren't working on the new site design I sent her. It was .jpg file.
 
@SweetieBelle I'm in. But I'm going to need tenure.
 
11:40 AM
@Leri Clients should be resizing images. It's the only way to have correct images in the end
 
I had another client who thought I was lying when I told him he can't read his user's passwords in the database...
 
@SweetieBelle just create a site named helpvampireoverflow.com
 
'You encrypted it, you must be able to decrypt it.'
 
I've had what I think to be a million dollar idea, but I lack the ability to produce.
 
@SweetieBelle Liar! Md5 / plain text = good customer service
 
11:41 AM
'You watched it, you can't un-watch it'
 
lol
 
@Jimbo Sadly I was using scrypt. :P
 
@PeeHaa You have not worked with clients who resize (actually crop) images in paint, have you?
 
What? You don't store plain password somewhere?
 
@webarto that should be the standard
 
Sem
11:42 AM
PHP 5.5 FTW!
 
@webarto I put mine in a file called password.txt in docroot
 
I'm assuming sarcasm :P
@Sem I wrote that site in perl :P
 
You guys read about the json crap happening in 5.5?
 
@Leri I have. And I also have had the pleasure of explaining cunstomers why their automagically resized and cropped images were so crap
 
I wrote most of my freelance sites in perl.
 
11:42 AM
@Jimbo nope ?
 
@DaveRandom I do to! I just named in passwords.dat.
 
@Jimbo Where?
 
@DaveRandom Make sure not to block in .htaccess.
Another client's site got hacked, he was convinced it was my fault. I asked for the admin pass to view the logs. '12345'...
 
@SweetieBelle I don't use Apache in production. I was hacked on a site running on Apache once, therefore it must be insecure.
 
11:44 AM
@SweetieBelle argh, that's why I don't want to interact with clients
 
Asking for somones password is apparently the #1 method of hacking.
 
He was convinced that the issue wasn't his password. -_-
 
Well I doubt it's #1 but it's an effective one.
 
@webarto BTW, is their any non-technical-person-friendly (huh?) article that (storing passwords as plain text) explains why that should not be done?
 
@Fabien Same guy made me turn off the validator to ensure secure passwords.
@Leri You don't need an article, tell them:
1. Websites get hacked
2. Databases get stolen
3. Idiots use the same password on multiple sites
 
11:46 AM
@NikiC actually it was a good question (about pointers arithmetic)
 
@Sem btw my first internship was: Installing joomla, creating a template (actually copying one and modifiying the html/css), installing modules/plugins, hacking the modules
later on it became interesting when I was responsible for developing Augmented Reality stuff with Junaio
 
@Jimbo uwotmate
 
On that note I hate when people say 'Oh this site doesn't need to be secure, it's not like we handle important data.' Grandmas use the same password on your custom CMS with MD5 password hashing as on PayPal/Amazon/eBay, it is your responsibility to make sure that password is difficult to recover in the instance of an injection attack or database dump.
 
wordpress is enough
I don't like joomla
I use wordpress for customer basic websites.
 
@user1246800 lolwut ...
 
Sem
11:48 AM
@HamZa What was the name of the study you did?
 
@zerkms Huh? (I think I'm missing some context here)
 
@user1246800 I use Catalyst::Runtime for customer basic websites.
 
@DaveRandom json licensing issue: bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=692613
 
I know this Lior Kaplan.
 
11:48 AM
ubuntu + all debian based dists for 5.5 will have removed json support
 
@Sem "applicatie ontwikkelaar", well I didn't study it at all when I was doing internship there :P
 
@Jimbo Don't use bundled php build.
 
@HamZa: Sounds like we did the same study :)
 
Debian has an obsessive free software purity mentality, unfortunately that mentality isn't compatible with the real world.
 
@Sem you might be interested in amazon.com/Management-3-0-Developers-Developing-Addison-Wesley/… and amazon.com/Coaching-Agile-Teams-ScrumMasters-Addison-Wesley/dp/… for some ideas on how to lead/coach/improve your team
 
11:49 AM
@SweetieBelle Nice try but... they don't really get how hash works and still want feature send password on email on password recovery.
 
@SweetieBelle That guy works at Zend actually.
 
@Sem HBO students were using MD5 for storing passwords, XSS everywhere and a lot more of horrible things
 
Sem
@HamZa Damn, you were abused. Sorry to hear that. :(
 
@Leri Generate a new password and send that. The user doesn't care if they get their old password, they care if they get a password they can log on with.
 
@NiekBergman heh, mbo4 is really crap. Let's hope the HBO have some good challenges :)
 
11:50 AM
Our CTO had a book "How to manage the unmanageable" on his desk :(
 
@Jimbo it's weird because that guy actually is working at Zend and Debian.
 
@Jimbo That is one of the weirdest arguments I've ever seen in the FOSS world.
 
@HamZa: I got a job in PHP right after MBO, so I'm currently not studying anymore.
 
Sem
@Gordon Looks great! I'll dive in to that after I'm done with amazon.com/SQL-Antipatterns-Programming-Pragmatic-Programmers/… which @tereško recommended me to read. Thanks for the help :)
 
@SweetieBelle Sure, users don't but some of clients do. I want to have some reference for them. Or, wait, I can explain that user does not care. Thanks for the diea.
 
11:51 AM
@HamZa: Though I will probably do Zend certification soon.
 
@user1246800 Read this and reconsider your choices: blog.ircmaxell.com/2013/07/…
 
The guy with the license is just being an asshole
 
Crockford is renowned for being an asshole
 
@NiekBergman heh, with MBO the salary you get is so low even if you're better than a senior. Of course there are exceptions ...
 
Sem
@HamZa I'm doing HBO Deeltijd Informatica right now at HvA. :) We haven't even touched the subject encryption yet.
 
11:52 AM
Hi people, i'm new here, can i ask here something about json? I don't know where to ask because i work everything with php?
 
@Fabien the review on Amazon says: "I find I'm getting crankier in reviewing computing literature in my old age. So it came as a delightful surprise to me that I really like this book. So much so, that I would put it on a par with some of the classical studies of software management, like Fred Brooks' The Mythical Man-Month and Tom DeMarco's Peopleware." That's pretty high praise then.
 
@Sem Duivendrechtskade ?
 
@zerkms hrm, maybe
 
Sem
@HamZa Yes, I live 200 meters away from it too. In the seacontainers
 
@NikiC voted for reopen. It's not a rocket science but for newbies it's a puzzle
 
11:53 AM
@MirkoSimic do you intend to do good or evil with the json? the license agreement for json states you may not use it for evil so we have to know in advance what you are up to.
 
mwahahaha we are near each other :D
I'm trying to attend the HvA in september (technishe Informatica - voltijd), but I'm waiting for my diploma
 
okay, I'll give it a reopen vote too
 
@Gordon LOL
 
@Sem my collegue lives there (seacontainers)
 
@Leri You can ask them whether they want to be on the front page of a newspaper in the event of a site breach, because that tends to happen when major databases are leaked. Plaintext passwords are a bad thing.
 
11:56 AM
@Gordon i get website data with json, and i must now develop i search filter, i have already configured the search form, but now request for results are my problem, i don't have experience with json
 
@webarto although I think that was for jsonlint only
 
I would refuse any freelance job that required me to store passwords in plaintext on ethical grounds, @Leri.
 
Sem
@HamZa Too bad you're doing fulltime, it's a waiste since you can already start with your other diploma. You even get the exact same diploma in part time. And if you do part time work as well you'll get 4 years of work experience and you'll be a senior developer in the same time :)
 
@Gordon i do only good things if know how to... :)
 
Do you feel that the security of a password is the job of the user or the developer?
 
11:57 AM
@MirkoSimic all you need to know about using JSON with PHP is php.net/json_encode and php.net/json_decode and how to access arrays and objects
 
Granted we still encrypt it, but you can do more to a persons password to make it safe.
 
@Sem Well "part time", I got to find a job then in C or Java ?
 
@Fabien I always suggest forcing >8 char passwords and no dictionary words, but I don't force it if clients don't want it. Also, don't encrypt passwords, hash them.
 
Sem
@HamZa It's easy really. 2 evenings at HvA and 3 days at work. Giving you enough time for other homework in the 2 completely free days.
@HamZa Whatever you want, PHP is quite popular as well ;)
 
Shoutout to @ircmaxell for stackoverflow.com/questions/4948322/…
 
11:59 AM
Well I'm quite fluent in PHP, but not with OOP ...
Also I though TI is more like coding for embed sys for example
 

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