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9:03 PM
I've got 6 hours of car travel ahead of me tomorrow. Any suggestions on what to listen to?
(As in software development resources, not music)
 
9:16 PM
nope, sorry
 
In case you didn't already, why not brooks?
 
I agree, Mel Brooks is quite funny
 
Yeah.. audiobooks. Buit I don't really have an idea what to look into
The only things I can think of is Discworld and Software Development :P
 
@edorian well, it doesnt make much sense to look into audiobooks anyway
 
A Song of Ice and Fire is a series of epic fantasy novels by American novelist and screenwriter George R. R. Martin. Martin began writing the series in 1991 and the first volume was published in 1996. Originally planned as a trilogy, the series now consists of five published volumes; a further two are planned. In addition there are three prequel novellas currently available, with several more being planned, and a series of novella-length excerpts from the main Ice and Fire novels. The story of A Song of Ice and Fire takes place in a fictional world, primarily on a continent called Weste...
granted, 6 hours would only likely take you through book 1...
 
9:27 PM
@ircmaxell Did you read all of them?
I read most of it I think but didn't finish it
 
yes
I read all 5 in about 1.5 months
 
in germans is twice as much (really fat) books
and the translation wasn't good in my eyes
anyways, did you like it?
 
Ah, yeah, they are long books to begin with
@NikiC Absolutely. One of the best books I've read in a really long time
 
Hm, interesting
Personally I didn't find them as spectacular as everybody says
 
No?
 
9:32 PM
No. Seemed all very longish to me with the story becoming more and more complex, introducing more and more new characters and never really coming to an end
 
it's a series. It's not supposed to come to an end yet
there's 2 more books to come
 
hum
maybe
don't know
 
@edorian Hörbuch - Frederick P. Brooks junior - (2002) Vom Mythos des Mann-Monats 4CD [ogg, cue]
 
@hakre I actually never bothered to fully read that one iirc . Good idea :)
 
Duration 3:50:26
 
@ircmaxell oh my
oh my
oh what the fuck
 
well, PHP goes into the wrong direction then. register globals is off by now and the magic quotes are gone :/
 
damned I just started hating this guy I don't know at all
 
lol
 
The agile manifesto at least didn't contradict its self at least 4 times
 
9:41 PM
yeah
 
Since when does every single line in a manifest starts with "I" ?
 
It doesn't. But this is PHP
I WANT is php
the only other acceptable statement is GIMME GIMME GIMME
The guy from the video talking to UB
 
I 1x am; 1x think, 1x need, 3x like, 5x want.
 
@edorian Jim Coplien
@hakre 0x2B | ~0x2B
 
(like came from Gordon through the backchannels)
 
9:46 PM
@Gordon I'm so bad with these ;)
 
@hakre its a quote from Hamlet ;)
 
The chances of you dying on the way to get your lottery tickets is greater than your chances of winning.
 
Well if you beat the odds once
Oh wait.. that's not how that works.. -_-
 
@Gordon okay, thanks, now got it :D
 
I regularly see factories using static methods. Kosher or not?
 
9:52 PM
@hakre :)
@LeviMorrison religious layer
 
@LeviMorrison Not a factory then...
 
Not kosher but an evolutionary step
There are 5 or 6 steps of "Well THAT surely can be static"
Until you end up saying.. Well does my main method that only the phar stub calls really need to be procedural? .. I'll do it just in case
@ircmaxell Elaborate? (I mean.. they complicate things and so on but well.. it doesn't seem like a valid statement.. Pattern != implementation)
 
@edorian I know, was just messing around
 
All right. Couldn't tell
 
Me neither
 
10:00 PM
@CharlesSprayberry: pendantic note: Remember, MVC is a design pattern, free to be changed and iterpreted differently. actually, that's the whole point of a pattern, that it's not changed or interpreted differently, but is universally applied so as to make communication far easier. It's just a pedantic note, I don't disagree with your post so far...
 
Good night now
 
Good night
 
@hakre Did you mass upvote me?
 
oh, Michele Bachmann's no longer running? How come? She had so convincing arguments and theories. </sarcasm>
 
Just to brag about it again: I'm silver on yaaay stackoverflow.com/badges/1564/phpunit?userid=285578
2
 
10:03 PM
She was a nut-job that gives a bad name to conservatives
 
@edorian Congratulations
 
@CharlesSprayberry You appear to have burst into flames
 
396 more on and you'll get gold
 
@ircmaxell actually all I read so far about the conservative candidates is that they are nut jobs :)
 
10:04 PM
What I like about my tag list is that it tells me I have experience at "Mocking Netbeans"
 
@hakre If yes, thanks very much I got five badges from that óÒ
 
@Gordon Ron Paul is made to look like a nut hub, but he's not really that crazy. And Mit Romney isn't really that far out there either
 
@ircmaxell can only tell from our media here so i wont argue :) lacking information for a qualified discussion
 
that's just my take on it.
I know a lot will still call them nuts
 
@edorian nice :)
 
10:06 PM
@ircmaxell I understand your point. However, I believe MVC goes beyond just a simple design pattern that can be shoe-horned into one definite implementation. I guess that was the gist of what I was trying to say.
 
@CharlesSprayberry I'm not arguing the intent, just the wording which you expressed that with
 
@ircmaxell Perhaps I can go back and look at it and try to come up with a better phrase
@ircmaxell I appreciate your feedback though!
 
I'm not sure if you can (which is ok). It's more of a nitpick that I have with patterns...
 
@NikiC nah, only some votes here and there. some answers I always wanted to vote up still lurking on my to-vote list :)
 
I like the article and on a whole agree with the points you made
 
10:10 PM
@ircmaxell thanks :D
 
@edorian congrats & well deserved.
@NikiC cool :D
 
@ircmaxell I hate election time. I'm highly patriotic, and that's why I hate it so much. I hate the fact that the guy I elect, no matter the candidate, will likely do everything wrong for the country I love so dearly.
 
Thank you. And just because I didn't answer you in the comment: No there is no "SimpleTestSomething" in phpunit
 
Hmm, I have some simpletests in a pear lib
 
@LeviMorrison yeah, I feel quite similarly... All candidates suck because they are politicians.
 
10:11 PM
not touched for ages^^
 
@ircmaxell Agreed. The skills to become president are not the same skills you need to be a good one.
 
Tyrael showed me around in PEAR and It's kind of interesting to see .phpt, simpletest and phpunit mix in there
 
@LeviMorrison which is sad
 
.phpt as in real php phpt not as in phpunit.phpt/pear.phpt
 
It creeped in my mind that this isn't simpletest at all... .
 
10:14 PM
@ircmaxell It's really sad because I don't know what to do about it.
 
@LeviMorrison run for president
 
Hello, First time in chat room.
 
@Shiplu Welcome :)
 
Thanks @ed
Thanks @edorian
 
@ircmaxell I'm busy trying to improve things I have a hope of trying to achieve. Keep in mind I am redoing PHP datastructures. . .
 
10:15 PM
@LeviMorrison Exactly, if you can tackle that, President should be easy
 
Is this room logged ?
 
@ircmaxell lol
 
OMG. Its completely live
Sometimes I wonder how people find answer so quickly on SO
But when I ask something I dont get answers. :(
 
@Shiplu 90% of the time, it's about being the fastest gun in the west.
Eh, some questions are easy.
 
10:18 PM
@Shiplu Typically, it's about knowing how to write and word your questions well
 
For example,
1
Q: Unexpected T_PAAMAVIM_NEEKUDOTAVIM, expecting T_NS_Separator

SidCI moved an application from an Ubuntu Narwhal Server to RHEL server over the weekend. My error log is full of the PHP errors in the subject line referencing the following function: function wfTalkHereArticleFromTitle( &$title, &$article ) { global $wgRequest, $wgTalkHereNamespaces; if ...

 
yeah,
 
@ircmaxell And formatting well.
 
That is the first time I've ever seen a T_PAAMAWHATEVER error that was interesting.
 
Thats the famous token in php.
 
10:19 PM
@LeviMorrison yup
 
Yup.
 
@Charles yeah, not the usual one
 
Most questions about it are "why am I seeing errors about a :: in Hebrew, wtf"
 
@Charles I was about to hit close, then I read the quesiton and was surprised
 
@ircmaxell Yeah, seeing the T_NS_ thing in there was what made me pause as well
 
10:20 PM
i think we should add that to the operator reference
 
::, or namespaces?
 
:-D
 
Today I answered this, stackoverflow.com/questions/8733415/… . Starting with "You suck"
Then its edited. lol
 
@Shiplu Because there's no reason to tell somebody that they suck in an answer.
 
@CharlesSprayberry No matter how much it might be true.
 
10:22 PM
@Shiplu That's not normally a good thing to do
 
@Charles Indeed. Its just inflammatory and probably means they won't pay attention to you.
 
Right. I should not do it. But it couldn't resist.
 
And mostly because at some point every single one of us sucked. Hell, I still suck quite regularly.
 
Moreover, the us of X years ago sucked even more than we suck today.
 
@Charles I think back to my very first app and shudder at the spaghetti and crap
 
10:26 PM
sucking is nice.
 
@CharlesSprayberry just the first one?
 
@hakre We wouldn't ever learn not to suck if we didn't :P
3
@ircmaxell No, just that the first one was the worst
 
@ircmaxell YOu are ware that people can't join here without an active SO account ?
 
@CharlesSprayberry There are still about 1.5 million google results for my "first app," despite being discontinued seven years ago. That is scary.
 
@Charles name please
 
10:27 PM
@edorian yes, but he should have one if he calls himself a dev
 
really? ...
 
UBB.classic (formerly Ultimate Bulletin Board or UBB) was an Internet forum software package originally written by Ted O'Neill of Social Strata, Inc. in 1996. It was written in Perl and used a flat file database. The last version of the software was 6.7.3, and was maintained by Charles Capps until he left Social Strata (then known as Groupee) in early 2006. End of life At one time the hallmark of all message board software, UBB.classic has seen its market share steadily decline, largely due to the growing number of database-driven forum software written in PHP, such as the UBB-like propr...
 
no, but just poking fun
 
You spend to much time one reddit
 
It's a shame that npov rules prevent me from improving that article...
 
10:27 PM
We already have a house troll here
 
@Charles that's you?
 
@ircmaxell Yup.
 
very nice
 
We're to blame for what modern forum software looks like.
 
@edorian I'm not on reddit much at all though, which is what's weird...
 
10:28 PM
Deleting question or answers or even comments. Is it good?
 
@Shiplu Subjective.
 
okay, I'm here, you can start the abuse.
 
@Funkatron Your mother was a hampster and your father smells of elderberries?
 
well done
 
@Funkatron He there :) Was just writing a Mail
 
10:31 PM
oh, the micro manifesto guy?
 
neat
ah yes, 36 years on this planet, and I'm that guy 8)
 
@Gordon Twitter semi-dramed him in :)
 
Ah, welcome to our cozy little house of horrors.
 
:tipshat:
 
@Funkatron thanks for usurping my position as the oldest participant here ;)
 
10:33 PM
@Funkatron Well as PHP developers we all are "Those People" anyways. So being refered to in singular is an improvement isn't it? :)
 
@Charles, I recently deleted 1 closed questions of mine and 2 answers which might bring more down vote.
 
possibly
anyway, what's to discuss?
 
hey there @Funkatron
 
@Gordon You still look older if that's helping to make up the small difference :)
 
@edorian *shakefist*
 
10:34 PM
hello sir
 
People think I'm 40, so... :-D
 
@Funkatron Well I don't really know if/what there is to discuss.
My first reaction to your post was "What a nice rant" and then I got more and more annoyed with people talking it up way beyond what I felt was 'in it' so I mainly tweeted to state my point on the matter
 
@ircmaxell your ZCE logo is gone in your profile
 
@Gordon It's there for me
 
10:36 PM
Again: I hope you didn't take this personal in any way or something
 
@edorian And a lot of what's in the Reddit thread as well goes along those lines
 
@edorian oh, it's far to easy to take things personally. I'm very good at it.
 
@ircmaxell maybe cached?
 
@ircmaxell I didn't read that. To much drama
 
@Gordon perhaps
 
10:37 PM
@edorian oh god, don't read that thread.
err the Reddit thread.
 
@hakre Oh my gods, we need to get the site owner to put up some big red "NO, WAIT, DON'T READ ME" warnings.
 
@Funkatron If I have to put something together: It reads like: "I want my cake and eat it too"
 
@edorian and I RT'ed because I think we dont need a PHP Micro Manifesto at all
 
@Funkatron Please don't take anything that I said personally. I was just trying to point out the rationale behind the differing opinion...
@Gordon same here...
 
As for "write less, manage less" for is just saying: "I want a language with a bigger standard library"
 
10:38 PM
anyway. yeah. I just wrote about my personal preference, and a set of principles to help myself.
 
And that's not what PHP can offer (saidly if you ask me but well)
 
@edorian If our SPL concept takes foot, perhaps that may change...
 
whether you have similar preferences to mine, or find those principles interesting or useful, is entirely an exercise for the reader
 
@Funkatron I'd rather have PHP developers subscribe to the Agile Manifesto or the Manifesto for Software Craftsmanship to get out of the semi-professionalism image that PHP developers are usually attributed with
 
I never said you "pressed" those on to me or something
 
10:39 PM
@Gordon okay. I try to not tell people what to do.
@edorian nope, you did not. I'm just talking.
 
I just expressed my disagreement in a form that you might have not liked but as I NEVER expected you to so see that.. well :)
 
that's fine
 
And on the other hand I don't think all those values go together
 
but what are we disagreeing about? that I like a certain aesthetic?
 
which annoyed me a little when people embraced it :)
 
10:41 PM
well. I think it's entirely possible to accept that what you like is not what others like, and that their desires do not invalidate yours
 
@Gordon Semi? I would say that the image of PHP developers is really just a bunch of kids in their parent's basement
 
Disagree.. well.. personally I shouldn't subscribe to your statement as I don't think its coherent (is that the right word?.. Sorry .. It doesn't work out I think) but that's just my current though and nothing I would throw "at you"
 
that's fine.
 
@ircmaxell it has become somewhat better since I started 10+ years ago :)
 
Ha! I found something to disagree with :)
 
10:43 PM
If you find other approaches more productive for your given projects and your personal work style, then more power to you. awesome.
 
@Funkatron I guess what I usually disagree with is the interpretation that comes with posts like that. A lot of people will read it and think "well, those big frameworks are dumb, why would anyone ever use something like that. Smaller is obviously better". For someone who knows what they are doing (like you), that's fine. But for most beginners or mid-level devs, that's not really a good thing as it gives this false sense of skill. Then again, if we wrote everything for the junior devs,
 
why does it matter what I think?
 
nothing would ever be written... So I guess I don't know
 
That project size isn't related to complexity. SF2 (and I'm not sold on SF2 btw.) HTTP Kernel. For me thats a "I need a Request and Response and can't build it myself" (well I do that but maybe other people don't). Then I don't care about it's LOC or anything
@Funkatron It sure doesn't matter less than what I think and still here are talking? :)
 
@edorian Right, LOC is not the metric that really matters. Average Cyclomatic Complexity, NPath, Num of Methods, fanout, etc are really what indicates quality... (at least by my interpretation)...
 
10:46 PM
@Funkatron Semi-off-topic, but out of curiosity, what's your opinion of PHP, as a language?
 
@ircmaxell And I actually don't really care about that ether. If all I'm using from a lib are 3-4 classes methods and the thing doesn't have a god complex I don't care if its 20k LOC
 
@Funkatron: Are you aware of the PHP7 Framework project?
 
@hakre Oh my gods, could they have picked a worse name?
 
As a language? I think it's a mess
 
@Funkatron Good, then you're One Of Us(tm).
 
10:46 PM
it's also very effective at doing certain kinds of htings
 
As opposed to what? @Funkatron
 
@hakre Another unfinished something? Looks like it at first glance :)
 
@edorian well, isn't that what I just said?
 
As opposed to, well, Python, Ruby, Haskell, JavaScript, off the top of my head
 
As a language, as opposed to as a ____ ?
 
10:47 PM
it lists some small PHP libraries, so I thought it might be of @Funkatron's interest
 
but use what you dig, ya know?
 
@ircmaxell You said "num of methods" - I said "There can be 2k for all I care if it has the 5 i need and just works"
So .. maybe :) ?
 
What is PHP other than a language, I guess is what I'm asking. @Funkatron
 
Tbh, I think having a language specific Manifesto is simply wrong.
 
@Funkatron I think most people here agree with that statement btw.
 
10:48 PM
@Anfurny I guess I don't understand your question
 
Nevermind, it's not that important.
 
@gordon okay.
 
I agree that any coding practice should not only be dependent on language, that's too general @Gordon
 
hi all how are you?
 
Any real coding standard should depend on 1) the team, 2) the language, 3) nature/future of the project
 
10:49 PM
generally I think that the size of the PHP development "community" (for lack of a better word) means you're going to have a lot of different interests
 
And 4) the tools at your disposal
 
Personally, my interests are as stated in the post
 
Most definitly. And the majority of PHP users are never heard from
Just experiences of php usage I've been old of in india are extremely different from anything we do
 
PHP has no core leadership anyway, and has always grown organically, so… it's kind of the nature of the beast to have different groups doing different things
often at cross purposes
 
@edorian That statement gives me nightmares.
 
10:51 PM
(if I'm using that term correctly)
 
Well the php core (c impl) has leadership.
 
well.
 
But there is no php standards group or something .. well ok.. yeah.. PSR doesn't count
 
it's not the kind of leadership you have in, say, Python
 
@Funkatron That's one of the great and horrible things about PHP developers as a group. We don't have a central unifying thing we can group around (like, say, Perl's CPAN).
 
10:53 PM
yeah
it's the nature of the beast
maybe I could answer that, since I think I'm the one who wrote it, @gordon
because I mostly write PHP
 
Are making an implicit assumption that leadership is good?
 
and I enjoy working with simpler components
@Anfurny: I only mean what I say.
 
So, no?
 
@Anfurny: I did not mean to imply anything good or bad about it
so, simpler components
 
Leadership means nothing unless the followers do so willingly.
 
10:55 PM
and I have found far less enjoyment working with more complex, "full-stack" frameworks. I am capable of it, usually. But I don't find it particularly enjoyable.
 
One thing I don't like about PHP inheritance is that my constructor signatures have to match. Normally, it's nice but those other times are so annoying. . .
 
So, I wrote about my thoughts on that, as they relate to what I enjoy doing
 
The PHP development community doesn't lack leaders, it lacks coherent followers.
 
I guess some other people have similar feelings. shrug
anecdotally that was my expectation, speaking with the folks I know, but I am surprised that so many people seemed to get excited about it.
 
@Funkatron The funny thing is: Nothing of what you just said really, for me, relates to your blog post :)
Apart from the first statement maybe
 
10:57 PM
@edorian num/class?
 
So if that's your core point than I really didn't get it :)
 
@edorian okay. lots of stuff here so I don't know exactly what you mean. but also, I guess if there's a specific thing that you had a question about in the post, I could talk about that.
 
> and I have found far less enjoyment working with more complex, "full-stack" frameworks. I am capable of it, usually. But I don't find it particularly enjoyable.
 
gotcha
okay.
 
Ok. Full stack framework suck. Yeah. Most of the PHPeople are on track with that
 
10:58 PM
@Funkatron, it would be interesting to know where you draw the line.
 
oh I'd entirely disagree with the notion that "Most of the PHPeople are on track with that"
 
Thats why pretty much everything is components nowadays and why composer was born and so on
 
@hakre: I draw the line on what works for me in a given situation
 

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