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11:00 PM
that's interesting. I wonder if your perception that "pretty much everything is components nowadays" is based on the social group of devs you're in?
 
so subjective is the new system of objective, I can see, but it's hard to communicate along that line.
 
There are people making pretty websites with wordpress and maybe there are some people left that actually like working with cake (I'm exaggerating, I know it has quite some users) or kohana or lithing or any of the other big balls of stuff
But at least with ZF1 "having components" started of and people build small useable packages
44 secs ago, by Funkatron
that's interesting. I wonder if your perception that "pretty much everything is components nowadays" is based on the social group of devs you're in?
 
another thing that is quite misleading btw is that you now published it at microphp.org and removed the context. My assumption is people will simply ignore that it says Micro and think you are talking about PHP in general.
 
Based on my personal experience of course, yes. I've been to .. +10 .. maybe 20 php conference so far and I think I've met quite a lot of people that do php
Of course there is a massive observer bias in that but what can I do
 
@Gordon: decent point about removing the context. some people asked for it to be available on its own. While I think we know what assuming does, I suppose that's a possibility.
I did think about adding a link to the original post from there
 
11:02 PM
(..cont:) And SF2 as the first thing that maybe called a 3rd gen framework in php really has gone "Components" all out.
 
@Funkatron that cant hurt
 
Given the crap we see in the tag every day, I'd find it hard to say that most people are using a component-based framework.
 
There is a lot of room to improve there. Usage and doc wise but that is where it's at imho
@Charles I didn't say framework
I said components
 
@edorian Ah, point.
 
well, yeah, I think that gets back to the thing where it's hard to make general statements about PHP developers
I know the teams I've worked with, and folks I speak with at conferences and on IRC and such
I'd say it's fairly mixed there
 
11:04 PM
another thing that I personally dislike is how the thing is laid out, not visually, but how it develops. first you state you are a developer, then you state you like to build small things and there is this list of I want I want I want. When I read it my mind went "I went a pony". It read rather whiny to me. Isnt a Manifesto supposed to state principles?
 
but for example, most of them aren't fans of Symfony (1 or 2)
so, hey
 
user1385191
question:
 
user1385191
is this MicroPHP stuff inspired by the MicroJS quasi-movement?
 
Just to be clear, which manifesto are we talking about? @Gordon
 
Apart from that I agree with gordon that naming it "manifesto" is well.. asking for drama (and I didn't want to add to that. Honestly)
 
11:05 PM
@gordon yeah. I wanted to talk about how I got there. I did feel that sticking it at the end was abrupt
 
@matt to some extent, yes
 
user1385191
don't make the same mistake fuchs did (making a specific size dogmatic)
 
The other term to induce that would be "Big libs considered harmful" or something
 
@edorian: yeah, I had somewhat mixed feelings about that
 
11:07 PM
@edorian In that case, I think my statement stands, modified appropriately. The average questioner still hasn't grasped, say, separation of business logic from presentation, no less component-ish-like construction of code.
and now, afk to talk our engineering manager out of making me document things that aren't mine to document, yaaaaay
 
@Charles Doesn't mean people grab Zend-Pdf if they need a pdf for example. Or monolog if they need logging (ok, they would their own loggers mostly :P) but pdf or cache seems to work out as a "I'll just use it however i want"
 
@matt well, the actual file size is more of an issue there, as you're transporting it. For me, file size is (much) more loosely related to complexity. but it's a consideration, not a hard and fast rule
that's why I said I need to justify the code I add to a project. there's lots of criteria to consider.
rather than OH THIS IS TOO BIG FUCK THAT
 
user1385191
the problem MicroJS ran into was a hard cap on "module" size and an ego-maniacal maintainer who rejected whomever he pleased
 
well
I guess anyone could start their own thing if they wanted!
shrug
 
user1385191
the other big problem was questionable code quality
 
11:11 PM
yep. you have to evaluate these things on your own criteria. If you just listen to what some schmuck with a blog says (like me), you're missing out
 
user1385191
there are very few developers I actually trust enough to use "modules"/"libraries" from
 
I think you are not alone in that
anyway. @edorian glad we could chat a bit
and @ircmaxell
et al
 
You mind me linking the chat history on twitter?
 
if you like, sure
 
Dunno, just wanted to ask "in case" :)
 
11:14 PM
yeah, I hear ya. I would expect it's all public in here, but I appreciate you asking 8)
 
Was fun to talk to you
 
awesome, you too
gotta go hang with the fam
 
Feel free to drop by and time for .. well we mostly close questions, talk design or bash php :P .. if we are not asnwering mysql, js issues :)
Have a good time
 
appreciate it. talk to you guys latah
 
@edorian we can bookmark dialogues and link them as transcripts
 
11:15 PM
@Gordon You can, I could
 
@Funkatron cya. thanks for stopping by
@edorian let me see how that works
 
Is programmers.stackexchange.com a better place to ask code design questions than StackOverflow?
It seems like it is, but I know SO has design questions.
 
I understand it as, ask programming questions on SO, ask questions about programming on programmers
 
done
 
11:20 PM
@Gordon but are you "done done"
 

Talk with Funkatron about the PHP Micro Manifesto

51 mins ago, 43 minutes total – 185 messages, 11 users, 1 star

Bookmarked 1 min ago by Gordon

 
Very nice
 
I didnt know there is four other bookmarked convos btw
@ircmaxell did you create those others? Oo
 
Ahoy everyone
 
Just a question: from a OO point of view: a class representing data from a database, how should one implement mutating the data it represents. Should this be part of the class itself or does it make sense to make some form of a subclass that is allowed to do that, as in MutatableX extends X?
 
11:24 PM
We had a little chat with @funkatron in the Stackoverflow php chat about his #microphp blog post. Read up http://chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/11/conversation/talk-with-funkatron-about-the-php-micro-manifesto if you care:)
@Willempie Does the class represent "fetched result sets" or do the objects just have data and that, at some point, come from the database?
Or is that some sort of active record pattern you are describing?
 
Single result set it represents, that is loaded from the constructor of said class
Sort of active record, yes.
( I'm having the same issue with deleting said data from the database, seems illogical to let the class that represents that data to handle such requests )
 
@Willempie if its an activerecord it should have that knowledge, shouldnt it?
An ActiveRecord represents a Row from the database and adds persistence and business logic to it.
 
@hakre Saying "data mapper" when someone says "active record" is not always helpful but always ok :)
 
@Gordon Well it isn't really a active record ( I'm not really sure if I fully comprehend that term ), but from what I understand from it it comes close to it.
 
@edorian yeah I removed that already, so not to throw with soo many terms around when it's about clarifying some things first.
 
11:33 PM
But in terms of deleting said data in the database from the class that represents that data, sure that's doable, but at that point, since the data is no longer there, the class should destroy itself, but obviously, I can't do that from within the class itself :D
 
@Funkatron Feel free to swing by any time, we're here pretty often
@Gordon I did?
 
@Willempie Each time after deletion the class could throw exceptions everywhere that it's in a disconnected state or something. So it's invalid to call a setter for example.
 
ok, I'm getting really confused...what's the right name of a time/value realtime graphing component?
 
monitor?
 
@ircmaxell i dunno if you did. maybe everyone can do. just wondering because I didnt notice there is bookmarked convos
 
11:37 PM
dashboard?
 
yeah, that's kinda the idea @Anfurny, but I don't think they're relevant enough in terms of Google :(
 
@hakre Yeah I could do that! Still seems like a ugly approach though. My current thoughts were to create a Handler class for let's say the BlogPost class that will handle cases where the data needs to be altered in some way, that Handler class can delete/edit said BlogPost without throwing too much try/catch blocks around.
 
@Willempie have a look at Row Data Gateway pattern and Unit Of Work
 
* off to Google *
 
@Willempie linked them for you
 
11:41 PM
@Gordon Yeah, just found the same link, gotta love first result from google :D
 
@Willempie Also keep in mind that you might have two record objects that represent the same row and you then call the delete method on one of them only.
 
If I have 2 objects that represent the exact same data, aren't I doing it wrong at that point ?
 
@hakre can use Repository pattern to prevent that case, though it doesnt work for simulatenous requests because the in-memory object is not shared across requests in PHP
Hello @MarkBaker
long time no see. how are you?
 
Hi Gordon, only popped in briefly so you wouldn't feel the oldest person here :)
(Just been reading the transcript with funkatron)
 
@MarkBaker thanks for that :D
 
11:45 PM
Is it typical when using the NullObject pattern, that the NullObject class extend the Object, or should it implement a common interface?
 
@Bracketworks might be a SpecialCase then but yeah, its basically the same so … yes
 
@Gordon So under circumstances where it is intended to be the NullObject pattern, a common interface is suggested?
Ok :) -- Thanks @Gordon
 
@Bracketworks since you want to code against an interface anyway, yes.
 
@Gordon I figured as much
 
gn8 folks
 
11:49 PM
@Gordon The Object should not have a dependency on the NullObject though, correct?
 
@hakre nite nite
 
@hakre Night
 
@Bracketworks it can have one. for instance you can make it a required depedency in the ctor to initialize the neutral behavior. but you might want to elaborate the question for me please.
 
@Gordon Sure -- I'm working on a one-way traversable tree structure (only up) To take advantage of polymorphism, rather than if(null === $this->_parent) everywhere, I figured a NullObject would suffice for a root node parent.
 
0
Q: Designing my password class(es). How to split it up?

Levi MorrisonI've inherited a custom made authentication system that needs some refactoring. I'm not quite sure what the best way to split it up the password section and could use some help. The password class(es) need the following functionality: Check to see if a password conforms to restrictions. It n...

 
11:54 PM
@Bracketworks sounds ok to me.
 
The problem is that, I don't keep permanent references to a given node's root (though maybe I should, we'll see) so when I call get_root() it recursively finds it's way up the tree. In my current implementation, it keeps testing whether the parent is null, if so, return the current node. However, if I use the NullObject pattern, now I'll need to test instanceof NullObject in lieu of === null since the NullObject doesn't know about it's child.
 
im looking for a good pdo tutorial, any suggestions?
 
@Bracketworks yeah, that's one issue. so its not really neutral behavior you are looking for
 
0
Q: include PHPWhoIs by default for all scripts

stevetherSo I have PHPWhoIs located in plugins/phpwhois-4.2.2 of the root of my server. I'm able to use the Whois() class in php scripts by including it like: include_once('../../../plugins/phpwhois-4.2.2/whois.main.php'); $whois = new Whois(); But I'm trying to make my server include this file by de...

 
@Gordon Under all other circumstances (thus far) it works like a charm.
 
11:56 PM
@Bracketworks but im too tired to really think about it right now. if it works, it works. then everything's fine.
 
@Gordon lol -- Alrighty, well much appreciated all the same. I'll keep readin', I'll find something somewhere I'm sure.
 
i dont trust google to be honest, so much bad info out there
 
nite nite
 
@Gordon Goodnight :)
 

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