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4:00 PM
ye
 
@Ell :That sounds like a useless label. Doesn't everyone try that? Utility is helplessly vague.
 
Goodness implies a moral framework. Utility doesn't.
 
@slaphappy Gzkl for short.
 
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes Not everybody tries that, no
some people think that honesty is good by definition
 
@Ell So? They attribute it infinite utility.
I'm thinking like an AI now.
 
Ell
4:01 PM
You can't get infinite utility
it is a commodity really
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes no
 
What's different?
 
Ell
If honesty had infinite utility, you could murder people, as long as you were being honest about it, right?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Take a look at the trolley problem
The trolley problem is a thought experiment in ethics. The general form of the problem is this: There is a runaway trolley barreling down the railway tracks. Ahead, on the tracks, there are five people tied up and unable to move. The trolley is headed straight for them. You are standing some distance off in the train yard, next to a lever. If you pull this lever, the trolley will switch to a different set of tracks. However, you notice that there is one person on the side track. You have two options: (1) Do nothing, and the trolley kills the five people on the main track. (2) Pull the lever...
 
@Ell So if there are no people like that, replace "infinite" with "very high value".
 
4:03 PM
(I think the whole article is a great read BTW)
 
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes but a utalitarian doesnt attribute utility to characteristics or values in the first place
 
@Ell That was never described to me. I don't know what utility is.
 
Ell
it doesn't make sense to say "honesty has a high utility", I don't think
 
you know what would have great utility
 
@Ell Why not? Some people feel genuinely bad about lying
 
4:04 PM
if you brought me a cold beer right now
 
It hurts them.
 
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes Right. Some people feel bad about lying, even if it caused a good outcome
 
@Ell What's good mean now?
 
Ell
that would be somebody who says that the decision itsself determines the morality, not the outcome
@R.MartinhoFernandes sorry, I mean, even if it caused an increase in utility
 
@Ell it does, in the sense that we would be talking about (utilitarian) societies which sole or predominant purpose would be to be honest (as in your murder example)
 
Ell
4:06 PM
let me find a good definition of utility :P
 
obv. utilitarianism philosophers were not aiming for that
@R.MartinhoFernandes depends on the society
 
Ell
I think utility is generally "combined happiness of everybody in the situation"
 
@LucDanton Exactly why I don't understand what distinction the label tries to draw.
 
Ell
the distinction I think is where in time you can decide whether something is moral or not
 
Maybe I was primed by Etienne's mention of AI, as a goal-seeking AI can be programmed to pursue any goal you want by setting the right utility values.
 
Ell
4:08 PM
egh
lemme try again
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes it’s not a label, utilitarian philosophers argue that moral societies should govern themselves with the of maximising a global 'something'. what that something should be is its own discussion though.
The trolley problem is a thought experiment in ethics. The general form of the problem is this: There is a runaway trolley barreling down the railway tracks. Ahead, on the tracks, there are five people tied up and unable to move. The trolley is headed straight for them. You are standing some distance off in the train yard, next to a lever. If you pull this lever, the trolley will switch to a different set of tracks. However, you notice that there is one person on the side track. You have two options: (1) Do nothing, and the trolley kills the five people on the main track. (2) Pull the lever...
 
see
that's what happens when you plonk people Luc
 
@LucDanton Yeah, I don't understand why the utilitarian view is the one where you save people.
 
the utilitarian solution to this problem is that if the utility is number of lives saved, then activating the switch is the moral decition
@R.MartinhoFernandes category error
 
you should tell him that I linked to it just before
he should feel the pain
 
4:10 PM
@LucDanton But the article says that.
 
and the shame
 
TIL "Klingelstreich" is "ding dong ditch", that's hilarious
 
Perhaps trolleys crossing the tracks has tremendous utility.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes oh, I’m linking to make sure we all know the problem. as for the solution I’m going with what I remember from philosophy classes
 
Maybe they're carrying paperclip building materials :P
 
4:11 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes and that would inform a different, utilitarian moral decision
 
Right. So what's a non-utilitarian choice?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes "abstain of action that does harm"
(even if abstinence will cause more total harm)
 
e.g. in contrast a non-utilitarian ethicist might consider that deliberately causing (let's gloss over 'deliberately causing' right now) the death of people is immoral to the extent that even in that precise situation not acting would be moral whereas pulling the lever is not
 
@BartekBanachewicz Er, perhaps not acting has tremendous utility, i.e., you could use that energy to produce paperclips.
@BartekBanachewicz I really don't understand how I can't just formulate any choice as a specific utility distribution.
 
4:13 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Negligible.
 
I can probably formulate all of them in terms of paperclip production.
@BartekBanachewicz Who says?
 
The experimental conditions, I presume?
 
Real life is deep and complex
 
4:14 PM
This example is deliberately singled out
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes there could be utilities where the mental anguish that the subject of the problem, the accident victims, and all their relatives etc. would suffer mean that pulling the lever does not necessarily result in higher utility
 
What's the difference between using a class to model an object and using class to model the collection of objects?
 
Even if you assume that pulling or not pulling the lever doesn't have any other implications whatsoever, it's still a hard problem
 
utilitarianism means min-maxing is moral
 
@LucDanton Right, that's where I'm trying to argue from.
 
4:16 PM
@0x1000001 A class can be a model of anything. class Cars { vector<Car> cars; }; models a collection of cars.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes arguing the choice of utility and arguing that utilitarianism is an ethics are different though
 
@FirstStep can you stop?
 
yes
I could
 
But why?
 
4:16 PM
oh look the troll came back
 
@LucDanton I just feel that we're all utilitarian.
 
@FirstStep Because you're taking a lot of vertical space in the middle of an interesting discussion
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes which is fine, although that’s the sort of assumption that’s best presented early in the open. and here we are.
 
@LucDanton Well, I didn't presented it as such, but I questioned why that wasn't the case.
 
Ell
4:17 PM
I wouldn't call myself utilitarian
 
@Ell Why not?
 
Ell
because though I am slightly (as I think everybody is)
 
okay sorry
@BartekBanachewicz
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes sadly that philosophy course didn’t last very long and I don’t remember much of it, and not much personal study either
utilitarianism is probably the go-to intro to ethics, at least in an historical perspective
 
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes because I hold certain values as good and others as bad, and I think that to decide whether a choice is good or bad you look at which values it upholds, not what the outcome of the choice will be (ie, what the utility will be)
I think some values are good by definition, not in order to maximize happiness or some such utility
 
4:20 PM
@Ell Er, you appear to be ignoring some of the outcomes.
 
Ell
What like?
 
Like violating or following your values. Those are outcomes, too.
See example above about honesty.
 
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes hmm.
 
tweaking the utility like that feels like adding epicycles
 
Ell
I guess you could say that.
I don't like it
@R.MartinhoFernandes maybe that's where the distinction lies vOv
 
4:24 PM
@LucDanton I'm just thinking in terms of programming AIs.
 
Ell
a "utilitarian" might always assign "their values" zero utility
 
If utilitarianism is minmaxing, then any paperclipper-like AI is an utilitarian.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes for the funs, here’s a meta-counter-argument (let’s vainly call it Kantian): you come up with utility tweaks whenever you encounter a situation (i.e. a mini trolley problem) which computed moral outcome you find unsatisfactory, at least given the current utility. why and how you find that unsatisfactory demonstrates, and proves, that you are a moral being irrespective of utilitarianism. ergo utilitarianism is unnecessary and impractical.
 
And (assumption, though not farfetched) I think you can program a paperclipper to do anything by adjusting its goal function (i.e. tweaking utilities) (theoretically, probably not always practical).
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes sure
 
4:29 PM
-17
Q: We want some students in Year 12 to learn Android

Stuart WalshI just need to pick some developers brains. Our students learn HTML/CSS then JavaScript, then Python and PyGame. We want a fourth string, we would like them to continue on with Android and make an app with that program. But, it states that a grounding in JAVA is needed before diving into Android ...

/cc @Borgleader
Why would you do this to children? It's not right.
 
Ell
@sehe haha, that was 100% true before this summer when I became disciplined :P
 
Also, goddammit, I had finally managed to stop framing everything in terms of paperclippers. Damn you, Lounge.
 
I think I want a portrait of Tesla
that would be a cool thing to have on a wall
 
Hmm, why is there a move here?
Nevermind
 
4:38 PM
@EtiennedeMartel heh
would be funny if it wasn't true
 
Ell
man I get vector plane questions wrong because I keep getting confused between lines and points :V
 
Zugverspätung :<
 
> The trend of opinion among eugenists is that we must make marriage more difficult. Certainly no one who is not a desirable parent should be permitted to produce progeny
that's 100% right
It's easier to have a kid than to adopt one. Hell, it's easier to have a kid than to adopt a dog.
This is one of the things where I believe human rights impact humanity rights.
 
4:53 PM
@BartekBanachewicz yes, it is, but for tautological reasons.
"desirable parent".
I feel like I'm having the utility discussion again.
 
At least show that you can support your basic income
Are you an alcoholic? Chronic drug user? Jobless?
Fix that before making kids.
If you need support of others to sustain yourself you shouldn't try to support your kids
because in the end you're just bringing more burden on other people
But in most of western societies it seems that they want as many kids as possible literally regardless of the conditions they are brought in
 
And who gets to decide what those rules are?
 
I don't know which western societies you've been living on.
Birth rates in the west have been on decline for a while.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Germany has already been saying that without the immigrants they're not gonna have enough people
@R.MartinhoFernandes which is why they are trying to get more kids to be born, duh?
@EtiennedeMartel The lawmakers?
 
Do we know anybody from Munich?
 
4:58 PM
it would be a law, after all
it should be established like any other law
 
@BartekBanachewicz that only makes sense if they will be a bonus not a burden.
"Duh."
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Which all statistics seem to show is true
 
@BartekBanachewicz I don't know which of those you mean is true.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes that in total, countries do benefit from immigrant influx
 
5:01 PM
I'm confused. You seem to be contradicting yourself.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's partially true.
 
guys i think i just did I/O In freacking two tries!
 
I do acknowledge the fact that more people means overall gain for a country.
 
What I don't agree with is that pursuing this gain this way is the best way
if you aim to remove jobs and replace people with robots instead, you won't need more people, you will need more professionals
 
5:03 PM
I don't think you aim to do that.
 
you could, theoretically, achieve the same GDP by shifting the job spectrum towards high-income professionals
 
not really
that's simply an insufficiently detailed theory.
 
well, for one, the country doesn't benefit from people who are unemployed
so that's the extreme end of the spectrum
then you get the people doing administrative jobs for unemployment
 
well, they can do
 
@BartekBanachewicz Replacing people with robots is an instrumentally-convergent goal.
 
5:05 PM
then you get the people who support aforementioned ones
 
it's not a very big benefit, and not necessarily outweighing the costs, but they do bring some benefits.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, there are countries with lower population and higher total income
because of the higher GDP, obviously
now this thing comes from something
now if you can achieve greater money flow with less people, why necessarily attempt to do it with more people?
I guess the answer to that is that it's easier
and I just don't think it's necessarily better
 
er, why not do both?
Just scale it up.
Do the things that work, but more.
 
that's a good point indeed
 
Ell
it's impossible to grow forever
I guess that's the flaw of capitalism
 
5:11 PM
@Ell You'll run out of paperclips.
 
Ell
I really need to learn about these special powers of paperclips
 
Btw, @Puppy, @Ell what you guys think of "technicality Brexit", i.e. leaving the EU, but not any other related agreement, in particular not the EEA?
 
@Ell what?
@R.MartinhoFernandes er, damage control?
 
@BartekBanachewicz I see it more like the only way to compromise.
 
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes I think a "technical brexit" will only do harm really
 
5:17 PM
just like regular one
so what else is news
 
Ell
It puts us at the mercy of the EU, I think we can only be in a position worse than before
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes It's pretty fuckin' dumb, but I think that Maximum Brexit would be even wores
 
Ell
In a "real brexit", at least there may be potential benefits
 
like what
 
Ell
5:17 PM
I think it's the worst of both worlds
@BartekBanachewicz like restoration of the fishing industry
 
user1804599
@fredoverflow yay the great wall
 
Ell
there are others, just google them and read some stuff
 
erm
 
Ell
5:18 PM
there are other problems too of course
 
you do realize that the fishing industry totally overfished and the EU quotas exist for a reason, right?
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz I don't want to get into this okay
 
@Puppy EU CRIMINALS HAMPERING GLORIOUS BRITTON PROGRESS
@Ell because your arguments hold less water than a fish net, that's why
 
Ell
well done bartek
 
also I cannot seriously imagine that the fishing industry would ever employ any substantial number of people
 
5:18 PM
@Ell sorry, that's pretty hard because there's a ton of garbage to sift through.
 
you don't understand puppy it's gonna be 300 million to the NHS each second
it's literally free money
 
@Puppy start practicing your net repairing skills.
 
fortunately, my company sells software to the NHS
 
plz keep the phishing puns coming
 
so all that extra money they were promised can come right to me
 
Ell
5:19 PM
well I think I've lost already
 
you've lost before you even started, yes.
 
Brexit lost a long time ago
 
now go and google about how much harm brexit has alredy done
 
the only difference is that now the UK is losing too
 
Ell
I'm not arguing pro brexit
 
5:20 PM
yeah no
absolutely
 
Ell
I'm arguing that real brexit is better than fake brexit
 
Brexit was to protect the UK against Polish dragons.
 
Ell
man you really know how to piss me off bartek
 
(There's still dragons in Poland, right?)
 
@Ell I have 24 years of experience
sure
 
5:21 PM
@Ell that aside, how likely you think it is?
 
I am more interested in brexit approval ratings right now
 
@BartekBanachewicz too late to be relevant.
 
yes and no
brexit always was about local uk politics
if the approval ratings are low current government could gain by doing the pseudobrexit
in a way, that would satisfy both parties
 
I think it would upset both.
Like a real compromise
 
reasonable people could sleep again, and fucking retards could boast how they left and are independent
 
5:24 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes watch CGPGrey's video on Brexit, I think he's pretty close
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes You have to factor in that brexit was favored by people who don't care about facts mostly
Do you think those people will actually get into details of trade agreements?
 
the problem is
 
They wanted to show the EU figurative middle finger, they might not even realize what other agreements than EU UK was in.
 
the Leave campaign had no plan
so now the winners don't know what to do.
 
but they are gonna have a lot of free money right
GNU/Brexit
 
5:26 PM
lol
 
anyone here know about Interupts? IDT? or ISR?
 
Yes. Not interested now.
 
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes I don't think a "technical brexit" is very likey because the cabinet is made up of what I see as more traditional conservatives
 
Yes to me @R.MartinhoFernandes ?
 
yes to you
 
5:27 PM
@user5600875 osdev wiki is your friend.
 
I told you there aren't many people interested in Osdev
here and in general
 
the ]problem is that a technical brexit doesn't actually get Brexit voters anything tey wanted
 
@Puppy but doesn't it?
 
no i have a awesome mentor, im just asking if anyone knows it
and osdev is the best
 
ask yourt mentor
 
Ell
5:28 PM
@Puppy exactly
 
im in thier channel and wiki
no no i was just asking
if anyone knows about it here
 
plz tell me what did brexiters want
 
Ell
one of the biggest reasons brexiters voted brexit was to be rid of the freedom of movement of people
 
im reading about it now
 
Ell
in a "technical brexit", this would almost definitely be kept IMO
norway style
 
5:29 PM
yep
 
" I got hired for the C++ workshop" LOL
 
@user5600875 what's so funny
 
Ell
and that would make the voters very unhappy indeed
 
along with membership fees
 
Wtf? Workshop lol?
 
5:29 PM
@user5600875 yes omg workshop lol XD
 
and EU regulations which is a good thi
 
am I doing this right
 
doing what right?
 
Ell
@Puppy depends which, they can't all be good
 
this room just went .....
 
5:30 PM
@user5600875 using your language
 
@Ell Neither can their British replacements.
 
@BartekBanachewicz what?
???
 
Ell
@Puppy I agree
 
@user5600875 well it's not English for one
 
Ell
but I don't think there is anything to say EU regulations are inherently better than the British ones
 
5:31 PM
@Ell you always agree with Puppy
4
 
Ell
@user5600875 lol are you kidding me
 
@BartekBanachewicz it doesn't. The only thing it gives is loss of sovereignty
 
@Ell We'd just have to follow them anyway to sell in the single market.
 
Under the guise of sovereignty, no less
 
@BartekBanachewicz im not understand you?
 
5:31 PM
ugh
 
@Ell I think British C++ is better than ISO C++
 
@Ell which goes both ways and as such is really no argument
 
dude just go away, you are achieving nothing in here
 
std::colour
 
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes I agree
I guess I was trying to imply that to puppy
 
5:32 PM
amanuel goes away
 
the main thing about having EU regulations instead
is that we have to follow EU regulations either way.
 
Ell
when he said "EU regulations are a good thing"
 
so we may as well not risk fucking them up by adding crappy British ones.
 
Ell
I'm going to a friend's for tea
 
@Ell fair enough
 
5:32 PM
One last sentence "Why are we talking about EU In a C++ Chatroom ?"
 
otherwise we'd have to deal with both crappy British ones and crappy EU ones
 
@Ell that's such a british thing to say
 
Ell
I also don't know how to use possessive apostrophes properly :V
 
@user5600875 it's not a c++ chatroom
 
Ell
Have a good night folks
 
5:33 PM
@BartekBanachewicz gaems
 
@user5600875 who are you quoting
 
@user5600875 because there are EU citizens in a chatroom.
 
@Puppy see turkey didn't bother with crappy human rights
 
yeah, they got a dictator instead
 
you got Mrs. May
logging in
 
5:34 PM
she's not a dictator
we can throw her out if we want to
 
@Puppy that's what a nation under a dictator would say
 
Boris is an orangutan, though
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah, he's a national international tragedy.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes oh ok didnt know... @milleniumbug im quoting that Bartek guy. @BartekBanachewicz its a C++ Chatroom please . im about to rest now.. Adios Amigos
btw i love osdev
wiki*
 
Damn, my code works but it shouldn't.
 
Xeo
5:40 PM
The fuck Munich
stahp
this isn't murica
 
user1804599
Indeed.
 
user1804599
This is Europe.
 
user1804599
@sehe even if there are 26 of them, there are 13 of them
 
6:06 PM
1 hour ago, by Shoe
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/munich-shooting-shots-fired-oez-s‌​hopping-centre-mall-germany-city-munchen-armed-police-a7151186.html
 
@Ell Of course there is. Specifically, the EU regulations themselves say so. :-)
 
@Xeo Also wasn't this yet another terrorist attack?
 
@user5600875 Far too much. Now I'm going to have to have a drink at lunch to try to drive out the memories you've dredged up. Either that, or it's my birthday. Either way, I'm having a drink with lunch.
 
@JerryCoffin Happy birthday :)
 
Strange Friday evening with noone around and nothing to do .___.
 
6:16 PM
@Shoe That depends. Do you feel more terrified than angry about it?
 
Just tired to be honest
 
I suppose that doesn't test whether they're terrorists, but it does give some idea of how successful they are at it...
 
6:43 PM
I’m not sure my graphics card with a jury-rigged fan is going to survive this summer
 
Is ethics about figuring out our own utility function?
(Deliberately not specifying whether "our" is collective or individual; thank you, English)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes from what I was taught, no (in the first-order)
 
Is it a branch of ethics, then?
 
I don’t know
> The claim that all humans are due dignity and respect as autonomous agents means that medical professionals should be happy for their treatments to be performed upon anyone, and that patients must never be treated merely as useful for society.
Excerpt from WP on Kantian ethics, which was the last thing we studied IIRC
didn’t understand much of it
 
6:59 PM
I'm just wondering about paperclippers again.
 

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