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user1804599
8:02 PM
@fredoverflow because unlike clients I state my requirements
 
Annnd I'm not doing anything tonight. That's depressing.
 
@Morwenn Or relaxing. It's all about perspective.
 
@JamesAdkison When you spend your life doing nothing fun nor relevant, it's not relaxing anymore.
 
Another instance of someone saying "I could care less" ... sigh
 
@rightfold unlike clients you're not prepared to pay up
@JamesAdkison where?
 
8:07 PM
Is saying "I could not care less" too difficult for people to comprehend?
 
hehe
 
@JamesAdkison They could care less.
 
Just an NBA headline ... player was being mocked and responded as such (haha - unintentionally saying it does bother him some)
 
@JamesAdkison well played. I can assure you the subtlety is far from beyond me, but is so rarely required that I just assumed you had mistyped like 99% of the people
@JamesAdkison Oh. And there you go. You were just blurting random quotes without detaching it from context. :goodjob:
 
@Morwenn Yes, that's true but from the context I'm pretty sure that's not the case.
@sehe Well played to you.
 
8:10 PM
You know. I tend to try to make sense of what people say.
 
That's weird.
 
It's inconvenient, let me tell you.
 
It's because of people like you that we're an advanced civilization.
 
That's low. No one can be blamed for that.
 
Or everyone. Your pick.
 
8:13 PM
I'll share. No problem.
 
That's what she said.
 
Not to me. Mmm. Should I be worried.
 
Too many interpretations. That's when you need to stop trying to make sense of what I say ._.
 
Just remember the plural of sheep works like a fish
 
@sehe :)
 
8:20 PM
It's funny that vapor.js has 192 forks
 
I know nothing of JavaScript but that sounded pretty maddening in the speech (i.e., all the JS frameworks or whatnot)
 
nah
the JS guys basically had to invent actual programming from scratch since they were too silly to just use the existing actual programming knowledge
 
@sehe Is that a conceptual vaporwave work of art?
 
Yes
 
so I think they're getting caught up
recently with e.g. Typescript some of them realized that dynamic typing is utter shite
 
user1804599
8:24 PM
Use PureScript.
 
vapor.js has better commit messages than mine
 
so does my face
 
user1804599
Your face is a dog face and dogs are incapable of comprehending version control.
 
user1804599
8:39 PM
if isObstacle (getWorldTile x y s.world).tile
    then log "Your path is blocked" $> s
    else pure s { player = s.player { position = {x, y} } }
 
user1804599
Super rad.
 
nwp
@rightfold what is the advantage over s.position = {x, y}?
 
user1804599
That it actually works.
 
@sehe hey, they stole my language's name
 
user1804599
You can't reassign properties in PureScript.
 
user1804599
8:50 PM
You have to create new objects.
 
user1804599
Also, position is a property on Player, not on State.
 
nwp
@rightfold I got that. I just don't understand why that is good. It is supposed to make things easier, but all I see it doing is make you write inefficient and overcomplicated code.
 
user1804599
It is easier if you don't have the guarantee of at most one alias.
 
user1804599
There are very few type systems that actually provide that guarantee.
 
user1804599
One is Rust's, but Rust is not suitable for what I'm doing.
 
8:54 PM
It makes writing bottlenecks easier
 
user1804599
The perceived complication comes from the less readable code, which is due to not using lenses. With lenses, this could would read s $ player .. position .~ {x, y}.
 
user1804599
The perceived inefficiency comes from copying, but premature optimization is the root of all evil and you should optimize only those parts that are too inefficient.
 
nwp
@rightfold will purescript let you modify the array to avoid copies?
 
user1804599
You can use STArray and you get O(1) updates.
 
user1804599
You build a computation that constructs an array with STArray, and then you can safely acquire the array with runSTArray.
 
user1804599
9:01 PM
No more mutations are possible after runSTArray returns.
 
user1804599
The type system guarantees this.
 
user1804599
runSTArray do
  xs <- emptySTArray
  pushSTArray xs 1
  pushSTArray xs 2
  pushSTArray xs 3
  pure xs
-- => [1, 2, 3]
 
nwp
I wonder if one could look through every function in say C++ to list all variables that are read and written, stuff them in a world object that gets passed around and pretend it is now a functional language
 
nwp
what would be missing besides neat syntax and guaranteed lazy evaluation and tail recursion?
 
user1804599
9:04 PM
No, you also have to note all library calls and thread creation.
 
nwp
hmm
 
user1804599
But indeed, in Haskell I/O is implemented like that.
 
user1804599
In PureScript, effectful computations are implemented as nullary JavaScript functions.
 
user1804599
exports.log = function(s) {
    return function() { console.log(s); };
};
 
user1804599
Here, exports.log is a pure function: it has no effects, and given the same argument it always returns the same value.
 
9:10 PM
what header file we should include for sleep()?
 
bed
2
 
boring_class.hpp
 
@Morwenn could be pillow?
 
nwp
so you effectively build up a stack of functions that print stuff. Does the runtime print before the end of the program or does it actually build up that stack and then evaluate all the functions?
 
ok i am serious, please say!
 
9:11 PM
@JohanLarsson Nope, that's for drawing stuff.
 
calling sleep() is undefined if you import smartphone
 
user1804599
@nwp There is a function that you can use to compose effectful actions. It is called bind and it works as follows (a value of type Eff is an effectful action, i.e. a nullary JavaScript function):
 
user1804599
// bind :: forall a b. Eff a -> (a -> Eff b) -> b
exports.bind = function(a) {
    return function(k) {
        return function() {
            return k(a());
        };
    };
};
 
@nwp i tried the things given on main site of SO but i am getting error
 
user1804599
So bind prompt (\x -> log x) would be compiled to bind(prompt)(function(x) { return log(x); }).
 
user1804599
Which through beta reduction evaluates like function() { return log(prompt()); } (a = prompt, k = log).
 
nwp
@DeNiSkA then you should tell us the error message and show an example on somewhere like ideone.com
 
@DeNiSkA "error" is not very descriptive to say the least
 
user1804599
As you can see, the result of this bind call is still a nullary function, so no effects have taken place.
 
user1804599
9:16 PM
main is itself such a nullary function. Invoking it will trigger all the effects, and is done outside of PureScript.
 
nwp
@rightfold this stuff is way over my head, I should spend some time learning about it some day
 
error message is simple :
`error: Sleep was not declared in this scope`
 
user1804599
The gist is: you don't perform effects. Instead, you compose actions that perform effects. This composition is itself free from effects.
 
@rightfold So in a sense, PureScript compiles a list of effects, then executes them. A functional interpreter!
 
nwp
@DeNiSkA well, thats because it is sleep and not Sleep. Unless you meant to use the winapi function for which you would #include <Windows.h>
 
user1804599
9:17 PM
@Aaron3468 Yeah.
 
@DeNiSkA Sleep != sleep...
 
@nwp this one worked!
@Borgleader my bad!
 
user1804599
Instead of using JS functions, you could actually use something like this if you had GADTs, but it wouldn't be extensible:
 
user1804599
data Eff :: * -> * where
  Pure :: a -> Eff a
  Log :: String -> Eff Unit
  Prompt :: Eff String
 
@DeNiSkA note that your code will only compile to windows if you use #include <Windows.h> unless you have black magic
 
9:20 PM
@Aaron3468 what's that 'black magic'
 
Alcohol.
 
-_-
one more thing! textcolor(); is not working even though i have included conio.h
 
user1804599
Include <coño.h> instead.
 
@rightfold ?
 
@DeNiSkA There's a nice library if you want nice colors in your terminal.
 
9:28 PM
@DeNiSkA A compiler that has a library to convert windows api -> other operating system calls. More trouble than it's worth tbh, so defining a sleep macro that switches between unistd.h and Windows.h is a decent option. Using thread::sleep_for() is one of the better options. Including an external framework/library like boost is probably the best option, if you know how to set it up.
 
and if you don't, that's a thing you should fix
 
@Morwenn i don't know how to use things from github
 
Step 1: learn.
 
@Aaron3468 ::*noted*::
@Morwenn yeah i will after learning c++
 
@DeNiSkA Uh, see you in ten years then.
 
9:32 PM
lol
 
@Morwenn i am good at learning!!
 
@Morwenn Only 10 years? C++ is a bit of a moving target at this point.
 
@DeNiSkA which is why Morwenn said only 10 years
 
Haha, that sounds about right. I've used C++ nearly ten years and I still can't link anything more complicated than a headers only project without following a tutorial xD
 
@JamesAdkison Well, you can get to my level in < 5 years. I guess it could be worse.
 
9:34 PM
C++ is complex on the surface of it, and then only gets more complicated the further down you go
the spec's 1300 pages aren't diagrams and smiley faces
 
Red or Blue pill?
 
I'm glad to hear C++ is adopting modules, because that will take us a step away from poking the compiler, even though we'll probably still do it
 
i am learning c++ only for my high school not for earning, i guess i am safe!
 
that's not C++
 
oh well C with classes is much simpler
 
9:36 PM
C++-for-school and C++ are two completely different things; don't get them confused
11
 
but don't say you know C++ at the end of it. Someone who actually knows C++ will be able to tear your understanding to ribboned spools
 
@Puppy lol
 
C++ is pretty much the only language I've been using for years but still need a reference book for coding and debugging ^^;
 
Then you're not very good
 
yeah.. you should really be able to link Boost without needing more than like, a year or two of experience.
 
9:38 PM
@CatPlusPlus Don't beat around the bush ... :)
 
By that I mean that I can do I/O, algorithms, and software architecture, but really can't get a cmake library to link properly
 
pfft weakling
spend some time using Clang as a library in a cross-platform project
 
Thanks folks!
 
nwp
@Puppy I'm doing that right now, minus the cross-platform part
I hate cmake so much
 
if you don't curl up into the fetal position and rock yourself to sleep while crying in a corner at least once a week you're not learning c++ hard enough. :)
 
9:43 PM
damn
I wish C# had a boost::variant equivalent
 
@jaggedSpire Well, I do that sometimes but it's pretty much unrelated to C++ .___.
 
@Morwenn aw bby
 
In other news I'm too lazy to finish writing the article I started yesterday.
 
I believe in you <3
 
I guess I'll do that tomorrow. By introducing that bit vector set, I guess that I can finally find a sane way to explain how the parity function is different from the parity of an integer.
 
9:48 PM
:)
 
Why do I keep trying to explain things while I feel like I'm not good at it? ._____.
 
so you'll get better at it. Practice makes you better, after all.
 
nwp
@Morwenn maybe add a discussion thing so people can give you feedback
or maybe that is a bad idea, too much work moderating
 
@nwp I'm even worse at web stuff.
 
nwp
but it does help motivation when people say they learned or liked something
 
9:52 PM
where are you posting these articles?
 
nwp
I should also learn how to use a console
I'm just trying to loop over the output of a command and don't know the syntax
 
@jaggedSpire GitHub pages, with Jekyll.
 
nwp
revenge of growing up with windows
 
@nwp To be honest, I don't think I would even read my articles if I wasn't the one writing them.
 
nwp
9:54 PM
well you understood them and don't need to present the topic in a class or apply it when your area of expertise is elsewhere
 
What console are you using?
 
nwp
zsh
need to do something like this but can't quite get it to work
zargs -- "${(@f)$(git ls-files --deleted)}" -- ls is just completely unreadable to me
 
you'd think "do this action for every line" is such a common action it deserves its own builtin, but no
you have to use a while loop
 
nwp
@milleniumbug yeah, thats what I'm trying to do
 
How about this syntax‌​?
 
10:00 PM
@nwp ls | while read x; do echo $x; done
795
A: Looping through the content of a file in Bash?

Bruno De FraineThe correct syntax is: while read p; do echo $p done <peptides.txt Exceptionally, if the loop body may read from standard input, you can open the file using a different file descriptor: while read -u 10 p; do ... done 10<peptides.txt Here, 10 is just an arbitrary number (different fro...

 
nwp
@Aaron3468 for x in ls; do echo $x; done just prints 'ls' -.-
@milleniumbug that one works, thanks
 
of course don't run this over ls, this was only an example
parsing ls is a bad idea
 
ls is for humans, not for scripts. Your mom should have taught you this.
 
nwp
nah, it's for my libfinder to find which lib defines clang stuff
 
How do you clean your displays? I have a laptop as well as a 24"16x9 + 24"3x4 that needs cleaning.
 
10:06 PM
clear
 
@nwp is your libfinder on github? I'm a bit curious about it
 
@Shoe I find that only to work in a very limited memory region.
 
nwp
it is unable to find the symbol clang::Decl::getAttrs, but I don't know if that is because I don't have the lib or it just missed it
 
compiler or linker?
 
nwp
10:09 PM
I installed libclang-3.8 but none of the libs in there seem to define that symbol or anything starting with clang:: for that matter
linker
 
libclang is the C interface.
if the linker can't find it then probably some bullshit about library linking order
 
I just brought the IBM laptop into the shower. It is squeaky clean and works wonderfully.
 
nice
 
@Puppy Just a few hours ago we got a questioner from a university asking about borland 6. How does this even happen?
 
@CaptainGiraffe wow that's new
 
10:18 PM
Borland 6 is actually pretty new IIRC, based on a new-ish Clang.
 
It's flopping 14 years old. Can I say fucking around here?
 
usually it's Turbo C++ 3.1 or Dev-C++ 4.9.9.2
 
or maybe that's a newer Borland
 
We should have a Wiki to recommend IDEs with excellent debugging capabilities.
 
nwp
@Puppy do you know which lib the clang::-symbols are defined in?
 
10:22 PM
if only that list would contain more than one item.
@nwp Many.
 
JSON does not solve XML's problems - s-expressions do.
Bryan Edds is Lobster's Alter Ego
 
nwp
clang doesn't come with libs, llvm doesn't include clang symbols, libclang only has the C symbols... I don't get it... did debian just not package the C++ clang libs?
 
what did you install
you could try installing everything that has clang in the name
 
nwp
I did
 
good boy
 
nwp
10:32 PM
I just found out that the executable clang defines a bunch of clang:: symbols... am I supposed to link to the executable?
 
user1804599
@sehe what are XML's problems?
 
user1804599
XML is fucking awesome.
 
> What would you prefer to have happen to you: go out and clang a robot, or having your consciousness transferred into the machine and clang/get clanged by humans or other robots? I relish the idea of being put into a qt [censored, just in case] chassis myself.
Everything with "clang" in it. Really?
 
10:33 PM
@Morwenn Ghost in the Shell much?
 
@sehe json can't handle Windows file names, end of story
 
handle what
 
wut. That's like saying my grandma's shoes are incompatible with wavelet transforms
 
how are file names relevant to json
 
Json is really good for networked messages between client-server. xml is really good when you are storing data in a file and need lots of attributes.
 
10:35 PM
> good
> good
mmm
 
They kind of overlap in what they do, but they seem useful for different reasons
 
Good Koolaid
That's exactly what they do! "Seem useful" :)
 
@Aaron3468 "If you want to turn data into big data, encode it in XML" -someone on twitter
 
twatter
 
10:37 PM
@milleniumbug The anti-social network?
 
@Morwenn Teaching something is one of the best ways to truly learn it yourself. That's why I would guess you do it.
 
@Morwenn You have to send messages of at least 128 characters :P
 
@JamesAdkison Not really. It's more like I have exclusive knowledge and it would be a waste not to share it, even though it is pretty useless.
 
@Morwenn Said every university lecturer ever
 
@Morwenn It's what makes people happy. Discovering, inventing, helping
 
10:39 PM
@Aaron3468 Ha. Not everyone is necessarily good at teaching others regardless of how well they know it themselves.
 
@sehe In my case, I guess that you can mostly strike the « helping » part x)
 
@sehe hehe, I guess it's JSON encoded in XML, and not vice versa, because that one was simpler to do
 
@milleniumbug Windows file names need to be escaped in JSON which means you can't directly edit them without adding escapes. This problem doesn't exist in XML.
 
user1804599
I want to eat a pizza.
 
@milleniumbug I guess it's just because their legacy systems don't consume anything non-xml harnessed
 
nwp
10:41 PM
@Morwenn maybe it's like sheldon doing "fun with flags", just need to get it documented so you can forget it
 
@Mikhail I call bullshit
 
@Mikhail Well duh
 
@nwp I don't watch the Big Bang Theory, so I don't know what you're referring to.
 
JSON and XML both use encodings. Both need escapes for different sets of content.
 
backslashes need escaping
 
10:42 PM
backlash is not escapable
 
@rightfold So did I ... but I resolved that.
 
Even csv needs escaping.
 
I guess you could use CDATA in XML, but that's a bit heavy
 
I read that in hippie intonation
 
10:43 PM
@sehe And special treatment if you're into std::locale::global
 
Depends. There's a standard and I don't think it cares about that.
Besides, the standard is never implemented
Besides, there are dozens of competing standards.
Welcome to information technology.
 
Yeah
 
I'm becoming cat.
 
that was inevitable
 
Yep. Information Technology is engineering after going 3 nights without sleep
 
user1804599
10:46 PM
@sehe my colleague parses CSV with split(',') because he's incapable of thinking
 
or: he's capable of pragmatism and recklessness
 
user1804599
lazy too look up how to properly parse CSV in Python
 
user1804599
which is literally import csv and a for loop
 
oh. python; that's unforgivable
 
UNACCEPTABLE
 
10:48 PM
there's really no reason to be lazy in a lazy language like python
 
NIH syndrome?
 
no, just being unfamiliar with what is commonly provided in standard libraries
 
Not at all there. The person who writes split(',') doesn't know about the rest of the world (beyond the tip of their nose)
 
(do you remember what it is?)
 
user1804599
@Ven lol PureScript has an unsound type system lol
 
user1804599
10:50 PM
main = (\_ -> main) unit boom
 
Python even has standard json and regex support for goodness sake. The more you learn about python, the less code you need to write in the first place.
 
which is fortunate, because Python code is shite
 
and a csv parser
 
@Aaron3468 And there's no excuse for writing any code before you do
 
user1804599
This evaluates to something that is not an inhabitant of forall e. Eff e Unit
 
10:51 PM
so it's fortunate you have to write so little of it
 
I'd write 200 lines of Python code tops
If it's any more I'd consider writing it in another language
 
user1804599
Have more than three lines of Python and it's already incomprehensible due to lack of types and incredibly complex APIs like the stream one
 
I like Python.
 
Not that python, young lad
 
Whenever I need to do something, there's already a library to do it.
Pragmatic as fuck.
 
user1804599
10:55 PM
And the library is probably shit
 
user1804599
Buggy as fuck.
 
My two biggest issues with python; it isn't fast enough for hardware emulation (without pulling in a c compiled version), and it has such a weak typing system that I sometimes forget whether I'm iterating list or string until the program messes up. But I enjoy the libraries and package system.
 
I'm mostly in oceanography. I have yet to encounter real problems with libraries.
 
They're all .... submerged!
 
Save for the lack of explicit units, but that's a problem common to more or less every programming language or library ever.
 
user1804599
10:57 PM
Just wait for a Python back-end for iron and an iron back-end for PureScript (i.e. forever).
 
user1804599
I guess I'll do some work on iron tomorrow.
 
I'd rather wait you finish an actual project.
 
@Borgleader ahaha
 
Hi Mysticial
 
I don't python because everything is passed by quasi-reference and the tab rule is bullshit. Also multiprocessing pickles everything and deep copies, killing performance.
 
user1804599
10:59 PM
@Morwenn iron is an actual project
 
user1804599
@Morwenn F# has units
 
nwp
@milleniumbug any comments?
 
Ooooh, shiny I like these units you speak of
 
user1804599
@sehe wanna learn some obscure trivia?
 
@rightfold Eh, good thing, I didn't know that any actual programming language had them out-of-the-box.
 
11:06 PM
@rightfold always
 
It looks like the kind of things people won't use if it's not in the standard library.
 
@nwp for a moment I wondered why is there a separate thread, but then I realised you launch a process and you're getting the data from separate process
see, that's a project I'd try to use Python for
 
nwp
@milleniumbug yeah, that would have made sense
 
user1804599
@sehe If you want to execute files with shebangs (#!) on Windows, execute them with perl. perl will interpret shebangs if they do not contain the string perl.
 
wouldn't... that depend on the brand of perl you use
At least whether it /can/ interpret them and how it will map paths
Cygwin, ActiveState etc.
 
user1804599
11:09 PM
Lol do people use something other than strawberry?
 
Never heard of. I only think of that as of a flavour of condoms
 
The only time I had to install Perl for whichever reason I picked Strawberry.
 
ActivePerl was at one point recommended to build Qt
 
Back when I used Perl on windows it was either ActiveState oooor Cygwin
I'm dating myself badly.
I should practice more to truly become Cat
 
sounds dirty
 
user1804599
11:13 PM
Perl is so nice.
 
It strawberry six?
 
It has a bunch of bullshit error functions
 
user1804599
Larry Wall is a hero.
 
Croaking is not bullshit
 
an hero
 
user1804599
11:14 PM
No it's five. The six implementation works on Windows out of the box and is called Rakudo.
 
That's still quite a ways underage
 
user1804599
Perl 6 has contracts \o/
 
We need more of those. Eiffel needs to be resuscitated.
 
@sehe I don't like the names, for example, its not clear from the name the difference between croak and carp
 
RSpec is too damn cute
@Mikhail or die;
 
11:16 PM
[[expects: n != 0]]
 
Now we can tell 0 is not the Spanish Inquisition
 
C++ contracts don't have the same exposure than modules or concepts, but the discussion has been pretty heated too before reaching some design agreement.
I don't remember what was decided though.
 
It was decided that we can't have unpaid contracts
Just make them internships then
 
Xeo
> BUSH DID 7/11. 7/11 WAS A PART TIME JOB.
lol'd
 
11:19 PM
Hahah
@Morwenn Sorry. I may or may not be a little giddy because I'm watching this right now
 
Yay! Golang has Java performance and fixed width integers that I find myself needing often. I'll have to see what GUI frameworks are jerry-rigged to it :)
 
 
@sehe How do you manage to watch such videos? I... just can't.
 
I just... Try really hard.
 
@sehe sometimes they also throw in Color c to be scary
 
11:23 PM
Thank god that's only light red.
Someone think of the calories!
 
user1804599
colories
 
lol
 
coloroscopy
 
oh boy
 
user1804599
I'm a beautiful girl.
 
11:35 PM
I'm a... well, I'm not sure.
 
@Morwenn Hi not sure, I'm I'll see myself out
 
hehe
 
user1804599
You're a well? Amazing! What kind of liquid do you provide?
 
user1804599
@sehe do you read interesting blogs?
 
#include <bed>
 
user1804599
11:40 PM
programming or non-programming
 
Do you guys like the actor model?
 
user1804599
Because I only read GeenStijl and I want more.
 
@Shoe Worked well for a collaborator doing MPI many years ago. Whats the alternative?
 
Alternative for what? Concurrency? Distribution? Architecture?
 
user1804599
@Shoe I prefer Go-like channels as a concurrency primitive since they're more fine-grained.
 
user1804599
11:43 PM
But their boundedness makes them unsuited for general distributed programming.
 
user1804599
For distributed programming you typically want channels which drop messages when they are full, instead of blocking the sender.
 
user1804599
Because acknowledgement is sloooow and requires bandwidth
 
user1804599
Especially when the machine isn't available at all
 
user1804599
You use timeouts for that
 
What happens to dropped work? How do you know to re-do it?
 
11:50 PM
@rightfold loads of them. I gather them via Twitter. I basically stopped following RSS feeds on netvibes since I tried to replace it with inoreader. It's too damn much
 
user1804599
The problem I have with most blogs is that only few articles interest me
 
user1804599
And with feeds I quickly drown in all the uninteresting ones
 
That's basically what I just witnessed. So. Indeed. Twitter, lounge, some chats
 
user1804599
GS is one of them that rarely posts uninteresting things
 
GS?
 
user1804599
11:56 PM
GeenSehe
 
user1804599
Also De Speld.
 
user1804599
And De Gladiool.
 

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