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2:02 PM
Saying "Chinese is not a language" is wrong because when Abyx used "Chinese" he was clearly using it to refer to the official language of China. "The official language of China is not a language" is blatantly false. A better correction would be "Chinese is not the preferred name for that language".
 
Next I bet you'll try to claim Scottish isn't it's own language
 
@GundolfGundelfinger good job you succeeded in starting a good bikeshed here
 
@thecoshman I don't know what you mean with "Scottish".
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes You realise I never said it wasn't a language?
 
@thecoshman You insisted on the same correction.
 
2:03 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes The language of the savages Scottish people
 
Yeah, still not enough to know which one you mean.
 
 
"Chinese" is commonly used to refer to Mandarin, not to any of its relatives. I don't know what people usually refer to with "Scottish", but I'm guessing they just mean Scottish English.
 
there are other sorts of Scottish? Oh dear :S
 
@thecoshman There is Scots, and there is Scottish Gaelic.
 
2:07 PM
I mean the drivel people mostly residing in the lump bit u north of GB (the no wet thing)
 
I'm guessing if someone says "Do you speak Scottish?" they probably mean Scots, though.
 
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes I would think Scottish Gaelic
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes You've not been to Scotland have you?
What they speak is clearly not English like they claim it to be
 
Ell
I've only ever heard people meaning Gaelic when they say "Scottish" but ofc its not very common to refer to anyway
 
Speaking of languages, I'd love to learn Brithonic
 
2:09 PM
@Ell Strange, since almost no one speaks it (1% as opposed to 30% Scots).
 
Sam
@thecoshman How about Sanskrit?
 
@Sam was tempted to learn Lebaneese Arabic... but too hard :S
I think I best stick to trying English
 
Sand Script
 
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes IME, it's the only "real Scottish language" people have heard of :P
 
> "the most frequent speakers are least likely to agree that it is not a language (58%) and those never speaking Scots most likely to do so (72%)"
 
Ell
2:12 PM
But I have a very small experience in that so you're more likely to be correct obvs
 
Sam
@thecoshman hmm Arabic sounds too out of this world
 
Is that saying that those who speak it don't think it is a distinct language, but those who don't do?
 
@Ell I was just guessing and wouldn't be surprised if that guess was wrong. People have weird assumptions sometimes.
@thecoshman Yeah.
 
Sam
but dunnow about Lebaneese Arabic
 
But any way... can we get back to businesses... Slagging the Scots
 
Sam
2:14 PM
What did you find interesting about it? pronunciations?
@thecoshman ha ha
 
@Sam It's more a dialect really... from what I can gather
@Sam Just thought it'd be cool to learn
 
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes I might be biased because I had never heard of Scots until now too
 
@thecoshman To be honest, I find the speakers of both English and Scots are biased when determining mutual intelligibility, since they understand both.
@thecoshman Everything is a dialect.
 
Sam
@R.MartinhoFernandes woah!
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes sure... but it's not really distinct enough to be considered it's own language
 
2:17 PM
It's hard to argue that the speakers of English exclusively are wrong when they say Scots is not intelligible to English speakers.
@thecoshman Distinct from what?
No dialect is distinct enough from dialects of the same language to be its own language. By definition.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes from other Arabic speakers
 
@thecoshman But it's mutual vOv.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes yes, but at some point a dialect can become so different that it's better to be classified as a separate language, it's like speciation (can't spell that one... when species ~split~)
 
If you mean "it's not Modern Standard Arabic", then yes, but what you said would also apply to Modern Standard Arabic.
 
well obviously, when things diverge, you can't really say one is more original than the other.
just that they both came form the same point
though I think you'd generally consider the large group to be the ~origianl~ and the smaller one to be the off shoot...
at least, that's how I would think about it
 
Sam
2:22 PM
A little out of topic question... but I herd that Sanskrit is taught/spoken in Germany
Right after India... may be in some areas..? Is it so @R.MartinhoFernandes?
 
¬_¬ you know it's rather common for countries to teach languages from other countries
 
@thecoshman Often the criterion making something a "language" is political.
 
Sam
@thecoshman but Sanskrit isn't that common
 
> "A language is a dialect with an army and navy"
lol
 
It's not far from the truth.
 
2:23 PM
 
@thecoshman Arabic is particularly interesting in this context because the varieties at the ends of the intelligibility spectrum are not mutually intelligible, but there exist varieties in between that are mutually intelligible linking them.
Suppose that all those varieties in the middle die out and we're left with only the two unintelligible ones at the ends. Are those languages? They are mutually unintelligible, but at some point they formed intelligibility pairs with the same (now dead) variety.
 
@LucDanton Yes in fact you did. Thanks for the link :)
@Rerito It's called a constructive discussion
 
user1804599
Chinese Arabic is a nice language.
 
@Sam Sand Script is a hip language in many places these days.
 
@GundolfGundelfinger I was just amazed actually :D
 
2:27 PM
The only problem is writing it when you're out of sand
 
there should be a bikeshedding badge
 
I nominate Luc
 
Sam
@R.MartinhoFernandes ohh really? I mean are there a great deal of people understanding it?
 
No.
It's just a silly fad.
 
Sam
"many places" you mean in Germany I assume
 
2:29 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes well that would be silly, nearly all languages can trace back to a few common langauges
 
@Sam No, I mean all over.
@thecoshman No, it's not tracing back.
 
@GundolfGundelfinger or it's windy
@R.MartinhoFernandes but these 'distinct languages' were once mutually understandable...
 
Not, they never were.
I'll make it clearer.
Consider three varieties A, B, C, and int(x, y) is the "mutually intelligible" predicate. We have int(A, B) && int(B, C) && !int(A, C).
 
I know what you mean
 
int(A, B) implies A and B are dialects of the same language X, and int(B, C) implies B and C are dialects of the same language Y. But !int(A, C) implies that X and Y are not the same language.
This would mean that B is a dialect of two distinct languages.
 
2:33 PM
o_0 what happens if you had a situation where two languages are so well known by both speakers that you have very few people who only know one? Like if everyone started to learn Spanish and French together?
 
Sam
@R.MartinhoFernandes which is not possible
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes oh that is interesting point...
 
We could reason under such definitions if we allow a variety to be a dialect of distinct languages, but I find that that reduces the usefulness of "language" as a taxonomic category.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes one would presume though that all three languages did come form a common ancestor
 
@thecoshman But that's irrelevant. English and Sanskrit share a common ancestor too.
 
2:35 PM
and so we have three 'dialects' of originating from the same language, but were not all of them mutually interchangeable
 
@thecoshman Well, depending on how you define "language".
 
but programming languages are mostly constructed languages
 
It's all rather fuzzy....
 
I don't think you can define "language" in a way that doesn't leave undesired properties.
 
they don't necessarily have the same rules as natural languages
 
2:36 PM
Either B is a dialect of two distinct languages, or A and C are dialects of the same language without being mutually intelligible.
 
yeah... strange either way you spin it
 
Either option makes the "language" classification less useful than desired.
@thecoshman It gets worse if you leave the confines of this highly simplified model.
 
Or you say A and C are distinct languages, and B is a common root for them both?
 
@thecoshman No. For my example suppose they are three different descendants of another variety, D.
 
Because if you only have 'dialect' B, all can communicate
 
2:39 PM
They're "siblings"; no parent-child relations.
 
don't forget the timing of it as well
would you really claim all four dialects arose at the same time?
 
@thecoshman In this example they all exist at the same point in time, except perhaps D which is not needed.
 
I guess you could
but at some point there was just the one common root that they all stemmed from?
 
@thecoshman Yes, but how that does help you define it?
If you use "they have a common ancestory" then English and Sanskrit are the same language.
Which is a clearly bogus proposition.
 
Well, it helps you classify them as from a language "family" at the least
 
2:41 PM
It's the same issue as defining species @thecoshman. You can have more or less useful definitions but none that is "clear cut".
 
@thecoshman Yes, but "language family" has exactly that definition: a group of "languages" with a common ancestor.
 
Sure... I guess dialects are to languages are breeds are to species
 
The problem is with "language".
@thecoshman In the species metaphor, it's stronger than that.
 
URGENT: Britain stops taking child #refugees from Calais ‘Jungle’ at request of French police… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/790558875397357569
WTF?
 
so in your example, whilst you have A, B and C all in use, then they are simply dialects, but once B dies out, A and C are now left as isolated groups of speakers, they are now speaking their own languages
 
2:43 PM
UK transfers kids from one country to another?
 
@Abyx Where do you think the UK ministers get their fresh meat from
 
Sam
have to go now...
Good night guys
 
@Sam it's not night
 
Sam
good whatever!
 
@thecoshman And while they all live it's different?
 
2:45 PM
@Sam it's not good.
 
Now what is and what is not a "language" varies with time.
 
Sam
@Abyx whatever!
 
just go
 
@Abyx It says they let some children enter the UK, those with family already in the UK.
 
Sam
@Abyx :p
 
2:47 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes and now they won't?
 
Seems so.
I'm not sure I understand the point.
@Abyx Seems more like now France won't let them go and will relocate them, within France.
 
poor kids would have to learn frogspeak
still better than german though
 
user1593881
@Abyx Pitty the Russian is not the official language eh?
 
@RawN nah, russian is no good
 
@RawN That would be cyrillic
 
2:51 PM
it's uselessly complicated
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes why not?
 
simple english ftw
 
@thecoshman And what if the other one gets revived? I don't think putting time in the definition is a good thing.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes yes, at one point in time, there were three dialects being spoken, then at some point in time, there were not. Your very proposition relies on travel of time, why can't the solution?
 
@thecoshman And what is it when all three are alive?
 
2:53 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes is it the same dialect? or just a new dialect that strikes an uncanny resemblance to one that died out previously?
 
wow a temporarily suspended room has a nice animation for the countdown timer
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes three dialects of one language
@Abyx link
 
@thecoshman Yet speakers of A can't understand C.
 

 Stack Overflow на русском

Генерал Дис Куссий несёт возмездие во имя ru.stackoverflow.com
85 sec left
 
@thecoshman IOW, speakers of the one language don't actually understand each other.
 
2:54 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes but whilst there is B, there is a flow of understanding
 
What's the point of classifying it as a language then?
 
@Abyx oooh
@R.MartinhoFernandes what when?
 
@thecoshman Yes, but only with translators, or by requiring everyone to learn B (at which point they'll just use B)
 
Neat, Russian kept the old name "Cathay" for "China".
I didn't know that
 
@thecoshman Under this definition of "language" what does it meant when someone says "I speak 'language X'"?
 
user1593881
2:56 PM
@Abyx Trololol at that automatic translation to Russian.
 
What's the benefit, as opoosed to them saying "I speak 'dialect A'"?
 
You could also argue that A B and C are both dialects of the same language and at the same time you have A and C as distinct languages (and B being a shared dialect for both). Both answers at the same time
@R.MartinhoFernandes oh, I see what you are asking
 
@thecoshman It matters. It's all that matters. Otherwise you're just putting around arbitrary labels with no use.
3
 
What about the fact that sometimes you can understand a dialect, but wouldn't speak it?
 
How does that change the definition of a language ._.
 
user1593881
2:59 PM
God forbid I ask a cpp related question at this point...
 
case in point, Irish English... I understand what they mean for the most part. A lot of their phrases etc, but I'd never speak it myself
 
user1593881
:p
 
Any way... I really should actually work :S
 
@thecoshman So you don't speak it :P But it means it is intelligible for English speakers.
If someone tells you they only speak French and Irish English, you know you'll understand them if they speak Irish English.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'd say it's mostly intelligible, but I think most of the things are not instinctive... you would have to learn what they mean
 
3:02 PM
If instead they say French and English (but only speak the Irish dialect), then you still know you'll understand them if they speak it.
@thecoshman Well, there are degrees of intelligibility.
 
for example "press" is used in Irish English in a way that I don't think any English English speaker would know what it means
 
(Which makes it all even worse; some pairs of "languages" are often more mutually intelligible than some pairs of "dialects of the same language")
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes So could you say it's some fuzzy line at which you stop considering two ~ways of speaking~ mutually intelligible
 
Which is why the adage about the army and navy is so popular.
 
Perhaps it simply is something that can't be defined in terms of properties of the language itself
 
3:09 PM
@thecoshman It can be, as long as you understand that the line you're drawing is somewhat arbitrary. Although much of what we speak falls into fairly distinct groups, language (in general) is roughly spectrum-like, and we're stuck with trying to draw a line to say everything on one side of the line is green, and everything on the other side is blue. Pure green and pure blue are easy, but the border between them is hard.
 
@JerryCoffin And some languages don't have words for blue so its speakers can't even fathom the concept of blue!
 
Im assuming any Pascal chat would be dead so Ill take a shot at asking here: Would anyone happen to know why Im getting an error for the variable x in this code when it's declared and given a value equally as with i?
 
@Dominico909 go away
 
@Dominico909 Go ask at a convenience store, perhaps?
(Missing semicolon)
 
user1804599
 
user1804599
3:10 PM
This car is great.
 
how did you even get to learn Pascal in the first place?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes let's not consider dog languages yet
 
Jan 30 '15 at 2:30, by Borgleader
"Hi I have a question about my retirement fund"
"Sir this is a convenience store..."
"I know but it's the only thing open at this hour"
 
I though it's being taught only in Russia
 
kms
Im in Prague at charles university being taught in this language and although its made me suicidal what has to be done has to be done
 
3:11 PM
@Dominico909 Prague ? what country is that?
 
In cz\
jesus
 
might be one of those ex-soviet satellites
meh
 
user1804599
learn Haskell
 
It's all the Russians' fault.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes How very dare you!
 
3:13 PM
Im going to go buy some bleach and serve it up in a nice wine glass
 
You blame the French for everything
 
see ya later mates
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes blame Jews. it's widely known that Soviet government was made of Jews.
 
@Abyx Jokes aside, is that true?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Jokes aside, partly
 
3:14 PM
I never heard that, but never heard otherwise either, so.
 
man USSR has many nations and so was its government
of course there were jews at some point.
 
Sure, but "was made of Jews" makes it sound like they were the majority.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Indeed--I was just listening to a show in the radio recently where they claimed they'd done some studies and found that in many languages, the last color-name they add is for "blue". Interestingly enough, they also found that people who speak languages without a word for that color often have difficulty perceiving it as a distinct color either.
 
I'd even say that "russians" always were a minority if you count ukrainians and belorussians as separate nations
 
@JerryCoffin It's not true that it is the last: brown and pink (and others) usually come after.
 
3:20 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes nah. it's just an antisemitic bullshit. how that even could be possible
 
Fuchsia, anyone?
@JerryCoffin And then this idea is highly dubious. English speakers have trouble perceiving fuchsia as a distinct colour, and yet they have the word for it.
(i.e. I was being sarcastic above)
 
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes distinct from what? pink?
 
@Ell From other colours.
Any of them.
 
user1804599
> Here are the color names most disproportionately popular among men:

Penis
Gay
WTF
Dunno
Baige
 
@Ell Like, you're given a colour sample of fuchsia (for some value of fuchsia, whatever the fuck that means), and you correctly identify it as being fuchsia, and not something else.
 
Ell
3:26 PM
There must be something I'm missing, it seems simple to me :P
but obviously there is a surprise
 
user1804599
Red cabbage is purple.
 
Does anybody know what happens if I call .lock_shared(), then .lock() and then .shared_lock().

Will the last .shared_lock() call be blocked?
 
@Ell The point is that colour names are a subjective spectrum.
 
Ell
Oh, I thought it was some optical illusion
but yeah
 
Having the word in your language doesn't change your visual cortex.
 
3:29 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes what... it's clear what it is :S
 
That's what everyone says.
You never had or witnessed an argument (no matter how short) about whether something is blue or green (or any other pair)?
 
though for an online survey it may depend on the color calibration of the monitor the test is taken on
 
And what about "blue and black" vs "yellow and white", anyone?
I hate to bring The Dress into this, but it's actually a relevant example.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I think they were talking about some approximation of primary colors--e.g., that "blue" is given a name long after red, green or yellow. Yes, when you get to "shades of women's makeup" or "colors of paint' and such, 1) new names are added all the time, and 2) almost nobody really knows the exact names.
 
nwp
@R.MartinhoFernandes we know it is obvious, we just don't know which one it is
 
3:32 PM
@KaareZ lock() will block until you unlock_shared().
 
@JerryCoffin But brown and pink aren't "shades of women's makeup".
(Well, they are, but what you meant)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes oh god yes
the amount of times I've had to sit through one of those
 
@Griwes What happened to US NB to produce over 150 comments?
Are they paid for the comment?
 
Fuschia (to use your example) may be part of the language, but it's not a word that most people really know--most have heard of it, but I'd guess the vast majority never really know for sure whether it's supposed to be a purplish pink or a greeenish yellow, or exactly what. Simply having heard the word clearly doesn't mean they perceive anything about it (except for a sound, and in most cases some notion that it refers to color color or other).
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes well that's more about optical illusion rather than what we like to call colors
 
3:34 PM
@Morwenn There's a shitload of them?
(As in, members of the NB.)
 
Maybe.
 
Like, try to count all the contradictory ones.
 
@thecoshman It's about human colour perception, which is the whole debate.
 
@Griwes No way, I even skipped every fs comment.
 
:D
Welcome to the club. :D
It's insane how many comments there still are to be made on the filesystem stuff.
After it has already been a TS goddammit.
 
3:35 PM
it will also depend on the education, kids learn colors along with the names. To teach a color it helps to have an object of that color
so the time it takes for a color to get named may even depend on when the dye for it was invented
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Having the word, by itself, obviously doesn't. Things like discussing the concept, however, perfectly well might. But, most of "perception" doesn't really happen in the visual cortex, as such. It happens in the higher level processing parts of the brain.
 
@Griwes Can't be bothered to comment on TSs, it's not final stuff.
Better rush everything right before the IS x)
inb4 C++18
 
lol
 
I mean, with that amount of NB comments, they might as well delay everything another year.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes but the names of those perceived colors is another thing
 
3:37 PM
it'd be incredibly insane to miss the 2017 publication
after this insane rush to get everything done on the second last possible meeting
 
It's an exercise in taxonomic classification, with an arbitrary subjective taxonomy. I think it's totally obvious that someone unfamiliar with such a taxonomy would have trouble using it.
 
You can analyse the light coming of an object to give it an exact colour value, but what you call it is rather arbitrary
 
I mean I don't dispute the results of such a study, but I don't see many useful conclusions to draw from it.
 
don't forget that the human eye's color reception is essentially 3 frequency-response functions being applied to the spectrum of the incoming light.
 
@thecoshman There's more to it than just that. How you perceive a color is influenced (heavily) but things like what you see around it, and the color of light to which your eye is adapted at the time (one obvious recent example being "the dress").
 
3:41 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes well... it's mostly just interesting
@JerryCoffin oh yeah I know
 
Consider that those people who can't say "blue" know that the sky is a different colour from the grass.
 
Yeah, it's odd to think there are people who know something is a distinct colour but don't have a name for it
I like the fact that Japaneses consider green and blue simply shades or the same colour... and I regret saying that as shade/colour could be another entire debate like lanagues :S
 
:33669985 what did ya say?!
 
Ven
> Ukip candidate who claimed a gay donkey raped his horse is standing for party leader
UK, Ugay?
 
@thecoshman That's just because you're on the outside. Russians would say it's weird that English have no words for голубой and синий (basically just light blue and dark blue).
 
Ven
3:47 PM
@Dominico909 just add the missing semicolon
 
Why does this have 3 upvotes stackoverflow.com/q/40196775/85371
I read that question title like "using macros to <silver bullet>" or "using macros to <code monkey for me>"
 
@RawN After you've read Effective C++, and Effective Modern C++, sure.
 
@Abyx "Colleges around the world [think they] teach Pascal as part of their CS classes. Sadly."
 
@sehe thanks
 
3:52 PM
Pascal is nice.
 
Ven
@sehe I've seen a lot of people in school who think they teach C++. :)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Indeed
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes IIRC English has some weird stuff about order of color adjectives, e.g. white blue thing != blue white thing or something like this
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Strange... because as far as I know that's why Jenkins comes with 'blue' as the default good ball...
@Abyx yeah... the order sorts of implies one is more dominate
very subjective though
 
@Abyx Nah, all colors go together, but all after age and all before materials.
 
3:54 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes The Russians I've talked to about "words missing from English" inevitably griped first and foremost about having only "you" to refer to people, where Russian has one "you" for referring to a person with whom you have a close, personal relationship, and separate one to refer to (for example) a stranger on the train. (In fairness, this is from a fairly small sample of people though).
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes joke?
 
@thecoshman No. It's descriptive, not prescriptive.
 
@JerryCoffin I don't like that we don't really use ye
 
You can violate this order for effect, but most native speakers do speak like that.
@thecoshman Hows does "red old beautiful car" sound to you?
 
3:56 PM
Plus I think @Abyx was getting more at the order of colour adjectives specifically
 
@Ven I've seen a lot of people anywhere who think they (can) program c++
 
@thecoshman They were talking primarily about the singular, so at least vaguely similar to "thee" vs. "thou", when that was a thing.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes a little odd maybe...
@JerryCoffin yeah, I was just saying I think 'ye' should be used more
 
@thecoshman Maybe. The only thing I know about adjective order is this.
 
That's obviously "very old", like "red hot" Chili peppers are very hot
 
3:58 PM
funnily enough, the Irish use 'ye' a good bit, but tend to use it when they do indeed mean the singular
@sehe I was fine reading that until "green great dragons"
 
@sehe "green great dragons" makes me want to parse it as if "great dragon" was a specific kind.
 

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