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nwp
9:00 PM
@caps how many of those will produce quality code under pressure from a deadline? Maybe the tests work.
 
@caps No, but if you want them to switch to a different method you'd also need to give them more money.
 
@EtiennedeMartel It's money down the drain if they're not also going to change methods.
@nwp Producing production code under a deadline is not the same environment as taking a test.
 
Ell
@EtiennedeMartel having older kids teach younger kids would be a much cheaper way
 
People who have low self-confidence about tests because of awful experiences in school (being labeled with learning disabilities, etc.) can still be good programmers, even under pressure from a deadline.
 
Ell
I guess it's too difficult to ensure they are good at it.
 
9:01 PM
Think of it this way:
- Candidate = SO help vampire
- Company = SO answerer
There's a point where you have to cut corners.
SO's problem is that it's dead-set on keeping the bar underground. Whereas most of the easy coding tests make sure the person can walk.
It's the ones that expect you to high-jump 6 feet that ticks me off.
 
@Borgleader Not really all that new. Maria Montessori was pushing this general idea 100+ years ago (though most current "Montessori schools" don't follow her precepts very closely).
 
@Mysticial There's a difference between "can you write a for loop to count these numbers" and "write sort in 90 minutes while we stare over your shoulder"
 
@caps Writing on a deadline isn't exactly unique to interviews though.
 
@nwp The reverse is also true. Someone could excel at test-taking and collapse under pressure from a real, actual work deadline.
 
@JerryCoffin Ok models maybe not, but the schools are... newly adopting them :P
 
9:07 PM
@Ell ...and does a lot of good in other ways as well. Treating the older children as semi-adults with real responsibilities often does them a world of good as well.
 
@JerryCoffin Not to mention, teaching a subject is one of the best ways to learn it.
 
Ell
yes
 
@caps I'm saying that most of the good interviewers don't ask those kind of questions. And if they do, it's not a do-or-die thing. But I stand by that basic coding tests are good tool to weed out the worst of the candidates. (i.e. You really shouldn't be applying to a programming position if you can't write a working for-loop.)
 
@caps True, but I'm not convinced that most of the material is all that worthwhile to start with, so learning a lot of it better doesn't necessarily gain all that much. This is one place that test-driven education has fallen down: the search for objective tests with answers that are clearly right or wrong has driven schools more toward teaching facts than ideas, but ideas are generally what have real value.
 
Ell
@Mysticial I just don't believe people applying can't write a for loopa
 
9:15 PM
@JerryCoffin I believe this test-driven development of kids is taken far more seriously in Asia than in the US. At least our college admissions do look at other activities besides SAT scores.
@Ell It does happen. But all the ones that I've seen are managers who haven't touched code in a while. So they can get past a phone interview, but will fail instantly on the code-test. And if the job is to actually code, then they wouldn't be a good fit anyway.
 
Two __ for compiler implementations... and one _ in front for std library implementation names?
 
I didn't interview anyone like that at Google because they give coding tests over the phone interview.
And those are actually pretty hard - hard enough to weed out other potentially good candidates. But given the sheer volume of candidates, they probably didn't have a choice.
 
nwp
@ThePhD You only need that if you have evil macros. If you have namespaces that actually work there is no point in that restriction.
 
@Mysticial How hard is the test? I have a feeling I'd fail it.
(not asking for specific questions)
 
@nwp I still would like to guarantee some subset of names for the standard implementation.
 
nwp
9:20 PM
reserve namespace std and namespace extensions and maybe another one
 
lib. is reserved namespace for standard library
 
@Borgleader I don't remember. But it was harder than reversing a vector, but easier than implementing a sort.
 
I need one for compilers though, I guess.
For any intrinsics.
 
nwp
though an argument can be made that not supporting extensions is smarter from a design point of view because you don't want your language to split up into incompatible dialects
 
It was done over Google docs. So the interviewer could see me code live.
Facebook also had a similar phone interview process with a similarly difficult coding test.
 
9:21 PM
compiler.
Nah, too long.
 
nwp
@ThePhD If people need compiler extensions to write code you as a language designer have failed.
 
@nwp I'm the compiler implementer. I'm going to be using internal stuff. I want to have a space where I can dump shit and let it be okay.
 
@Borgleader Interestingly, I never had a phone interview coding test for the finance jobs.
 
nwp
you probably want experimental. and it doesn't need to be short or convenient either
 
I would prefer short...
 
nwp
9:25 PM
I would prefer internal_compiler_functions_you_must_never_ever_use_ever
 
@Mysticial I've never had a phone interview period, they were all in person (granted thats because I never applied for a job/internship outside of my city)
When I got past the first round though they all had some sort of programming questions
 
@Borgleader Interesting. I had phone interviews for every single place I looked at.
Even if it's local.
Being local did speed up the process for the on-site interviews.
When I was job searching January, I had one phone interview, and the CEO wanted me to come in the next day for a short in-person interview. After that, they set up with a full-day interview.
 
@Borgleader My last in person interview was -"Welcome General Giraffe, what would you like to work on?" Yeah I'm still there.
@Mysticial Why not a shared tmux session?
 
@Mysticial Full day? Jeez, I guess its a necessity in big companies if you want only the best of the best.
 
@CaptainGiraffe Probably because fewer people know what that is compared to something like Google docs.
@Borgleader For most companies, hiring is a big deal and a big investment.
It takes months to train a new person enough to which they become productive. And they learn all your secrets as well. So a bad hire has a lot more cost to it than you would think.
 
9:32 PM
@Mysticial People yes, coders? I'm gonna need a poll on that.
 
@CaptainGiraffe I didn't know what that is. I had to google it. You can argue that I don't know C either. But a lot of web-developers don't know C either.
 
@Mysticial If it is web stuff I wholly agree.
 
@CaptainGiraffe And anyone coming from a Windows background. (which was me)
 
@sehe Because Joel Spolsky is our god, leader and savior.
 
@CaptainGiraffe I dont know what tmux is either
 
9:37 PM
sounds like audio mixing or something?
 
@fredoverflow Fred, you could have at least gone with multiplexing.
 
Hrm.
func () {}
 
> tmux is a terminal multiplexer. What is a terminal multiplexer? It lets you switch easily between several programs in one terminal, detach them (they keep running in the background) and reattach them to a different terminal. And do a lot more.
 
Is sort of an ambiguous syntax.
 
Okay, I was way off :)
 
9:39 PM
... Or, wait, no it's not, if you require that ; comes after the function call.
Yeah, okay, that works.
 
@JohanLarsson Sorry, I'm a Java EE programmer now, which means I'm mostly concerned with writing getters and setters ;)
 
@fredoverflow Don't you have a keyboard shortcut for that?
 
ee? enterprise ??
 
enterprise edition
 
@JohanLarsson No, Entity Encapsulator.
 
nwp
9:41 PM
@fredoverflow I thought that is what screen is for.
 
@fredoverflow you can write java in any language
he says so in the talk
 
Enterprise Java = Java Luc Picard
@rightfold Aren't getters and setters called "lenses" in FP?
 
@fredoverflow Bald, but not toothless.
 
dunno
@fredoverflow did you stop teaching?
 
Yes, about a month ago.
 
9:43 PM
@fredoverflow we have Java EE labs at our uni now
 
I dabbled in some C# and C++, and now my current project is Java EE.
 
what is the worst you have written this far?
 
Honestly, once you look through all the boilerplate, I'm somewhat impressed what kind of stuff is possible in Java EE.
@JohanLarsson Hm, nothing particular comes to mind. Also, nondisclosure agreements and stuff.
 
we're using lombok though so I don't have to write getters and setters manually
 
@fredoverflow What is your favorite magical annotation?
 
9:45 PM
I've only done it for a week, so... @Autowired?
 
@fredoverflow @Named is the entry drug.
 
@milleniumbug how does it work? what does it look like?
 
user1804599
@fredoverflow you can use lenses to read and write parts of a structure
 
user1804599
if this part may be absent, you're speaking of prisms
 
9:48 PM
@JohanLarsson you annotate the field (like @Getter private int id;), and the annotation preprocessor generates the getters and setters - I think IDEs call the preprocessor automagically
 
can you do public @getter private @setter int Value?
 
0
Q: How to actually make lombok annotations work for getters and setter

ScorpionI am trying to use lombok getters and setters annotations. As far as I know the annotated code is generated at runtime and not compile time so how can take the help of autogenerated getters and setters for writing code? for example I have a class like this @lombok.Getters @lombok.Setters public...

@JohanLarsson @Setter(AccessLevel.PRIVATE)
 
ok, semi nice
c# wins though :)
 
user1804599
Haskell wins.
 
user1804599
No setters, IN YOUR FACE.
 
9:51 PM
Ready, set? oh...
 
user1804599
Profunctor lenses are all the rage these days.
 
@fredoverflow so if I understand correctly I could compile the code using lombok with javac and it will work
 
user1804599
type Optic p s t a b = p a b -> p s t
type Lens s t a b = forall p. Strong p => Optic p s t a b
type Prism s t a b = forall p. Choice p => Optic p s t a b
type Traversal s t a b = forall p. Wander p => Optic p s t a b
-- what's the problem?
 
Funny that you should mention profunctors, just a few hours ago I read about them somewhere on the Internet. Oh wait, that was here in the Lounge, and the one who wrote about them was also you :)
3
 
@rightfold think it should be -> ptsd there
 
9:54 PM
> Javac Just put lombok.jar on the classpath.
 
user1804599
@JohanLarsson :P
 
@milleniumbug seems so
 
i was browsing the clang/llvm git checkout with kdevelop and it kept crashing and slowing down. turns out it probably was a file in the clang testsuite which contains "#pragma clang __debug crash"
 
@fredoverflow I'm pro-functors
 
I want to define arbitrary-base literals.
I think I'm going to use the syntax 0b { digits } b { base = 2 }
So 0b0101 is a binary literal, but 0b0101b3 is a base-3 literal.
Maybe I need another number to start it besides 0b though...
 
10:01 PM
@Borgleader I'm amateur functors.
 
OH.
 
Oct 14 '15 at 13:25, by milleniumbug
if there are profunctors, then surely the usual functors are just noobfunctors
 
I can piggyback off the idea of user-defined literals, right?!
So, { integeral literal of any type } _ { base number }
250_7
 
lol are you planning literals for arbitrary base
 
260_8
I am!
 
10:03 PM
but why
 
Because fun.
 
user1804599
@ThePhD Erlang syntax is 16#123abc
 
@rightfold Ooh, I didn't think to use the hash sign.
 
@ThePhD As long as you're doing a base less than 10, you can just use something like 0101_b3 to get your base-3 literal. If you want a base higher than 10 (or something in the literal that's not allowed in a long long or long double, you'll need to start with a string, and convert from there.
 
That's actually a fairly good idea.
 
10:04 PM
Or are you talking about your own language, not C++ user-defined literals?
 
My own language!
 
user1804599
Bikeshedding
 
I haven't mispelled lambok. — Scorpion Jun 15 '13 at 3:27
 
I guess it's a toss up between 0101_b3 or 0101#3.
 
user1804599
10:06 PM
Stop bikeshedding and implement an MVP
 
> Hi Etienne De,
Well fuck you, Lucidchart.
 
@rightfold MVP?
 
@EtiennedeMartel "Etienne of <blank>"
@ThePhD Most Vexing Parse, I'd guess.
 
@ThePhD Model Vexing Professional
 
user1804599
> A minimal viable program is the smallest program that solves a particular problem. It is small and beautiful. It has no additional features.

If you removed a single feature it would be totally useless. If you added a new feature that feature would not be essential, you could use the program without making use of the new feature.
 
10:13 PM
I'm defining all that stuff right now.
And writing the introduction / hello world and stuff for the program.
 
user1804599
Other base literals are not minimal viable
 
@milleniumbug Maybe "Most valuable parse".
 
10:52 PM
I don't think character literals should exist in my language.
Everything should just be a string, and only a string.
 
decltype(3) -> string
 
This makes handling unicode easy because everything -- except external input -- will always be a string.
 
decltype(Some(TcpConn::to("127.0.0.1"))) -> string
 
nwp
a purely stringly typed language in the making
 
@nwp Sounds like JavaScript.
Or PHP.
 
11:01 PM
Question.
 
@ThePhD Answer.
 
In C++, do Hex Float Literals write directly to the underlying bits?
Or is it just specifying the decimal and exponent parts using hex?
 
@ThePhD The latter, IMHO.
 
nwp
I think the question is equivalent to "Does the value of a hex float literal depend on the bit representation of the platform?" I cannot imagine the answer to that to be yes.
 
11:07 PM
Ah, okay.
 
But if you know the platform's double representation, you can IMHO write it in hex float and get predictable result.
 
@wilx That is a stretch and a half.
 

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