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3:00 PM
> "Use spaces rather than tabs" I love tabs - but I've been out-voted in every place I've ever worked in on this. Oh Well.
Robert Ramey on the boost mailing list
@MadameElyse I wonder what the runtime cost is
 
user1804599
PostgreSQL is free of charge.
 
Ven
: ^)
 
@MadameElyse go. There's a lot of door-to-door evangelizing to do before the second coming
 
user1804599
> The system period is a column (or a pair of columns) with a system-maintained value that contains the period of time when a row is valid from a database perspective. When you insert a row into such table, the system automatically generates the values for the start and end of the period. When you update or delete a row from a system-period temporal table, the old row is archived into another table, which is called the history table.
 
user1804599
Seems fun for revisioning.
 
Ven
3:03 PM
It's basically revisioning implemented at the postgre level?
 
@BartekBanachewicz what are you using atm?
I think we're about to move to jenkins
 
@nick CircleCI
 
hows circle?
 
very good
I love it
except
 
but?
 
user1804599
3:04 PM
Install TeamCity.
 
a) no matrices
b) build fails now
@MadameElyse that's expensive :(
 
user1804599
No, it's free of charge for small teams.
 
lol maybe your code is bad
 
@MadameElyse oooh
 
user1804599
And also free of charge for FOSS projects if you contact them for each project.
 
3:06 PM
woah jetbrains has a new website
> You will download free Professional edition by default.
hmmmm maybe I could get a VPS and install TeamCity on it
 
@BartekBanachewicz Maybe you just suck at configuring it?
 
@wilx I've used and configured numerous CI tools
And the OS tools just fucking suck
hmm well maybe it's an option
but dunno how much time I'd spend configuring it
circle is great because it's super easy and someone else maintains the whole infrastructure
and I'm not very good at maintaining servers
 
@Ven databases have had that for the longest time. I think the temporal comes in when there's a set end-timepoint for validity at insert
 
Ven
@sehe oh, I see. I'm clueless about this stuff
 
user1804599
I found the ideal way to do revisioning in relational databases.
 
user1804599
3:12 PM
Nicely normalised.
 
@BartekBanachewicz now that's expensive
@MadameElyse warning: the emperor has a new hammer
 
@sehe why would it be? I mean it doesn't have to be that powerful
 
right. It's java, remember. Also, it's a VPS. It doesn't need to be powerful to be basically expensive
 
user1804599
@sehe You can do it with old hammers.
 
3:14 PM
> Many people do not know that males can develop breast cancer.
includes me
 
@MadameElyse That was my point. Glad you see it
@AlexM. You have to try hard enough. Or be a damn sinner
 
I just wish the build magically fixed itself
 
@AlexM. watch Archer
 
user1804599
CREATE TABLE ts (id int NOT NULL, PRIMARY KEY (id));
CREATE TABLE t_revisions (id int NOT NULL, revision int NOT NULL, PRIMARY KEY (id, revision), FOREIGN KEY (id) REFERENCES ts(id) ON DELETE CASCADE);
 
@LucDanton Archer? the javascript guy?
 
user1804599
3:15 PM
With values common to all revisions in ts and other values in t_revisions.
 
> For Haskell projects, env and ghc can be given as arrays to construct a build matrix.
hmpfh
maybe I could at least give travis a try
yeah well Travis doesn't give you ssh
 
@MadameElyse I had that, basically, once, but with multiple entities linked to single revision IDs. You quickly want to split the relation tables. You can also partition some large-volume entities into more than one relation table to help scaling. But really, a welltuned schema (that is, beyond standard db requirements) should cope well enough
@MadameElyse How come you never realize you're just madly in love with simplicity. Nothing about this is special, except for the minimalism
 
user1804599
I just happened to never have tried this approach in production before.
 
Ven
yay minimalism
lol "elyse in love with simplicity. but only when using perl"
 
user1804599
3:21 PM
Perl <3
2
 
on time and on point
 
@Ven I truly think his obsession with languages stems from the same: to see what languages make expression what abstractions minimally simple.
You can hear him rave about all the sweet points in all languages.
Perl has many sweet points.
 
Ven
Oh, no, I agree :-). I'm very much the same...
 
I think being open to this is really helpful for any programmer.
 
Ven
But maybe "being in love with simplicity" sometimes becomes "being in love with brevity", so you need to stay on the Light Side of the Force™
 
user1804599
3:23 PM
I try to find equivalences between techniques used in different languages so I can instantly transfer my knowledge from one to the other.
 
Ven
and never learn what actually makes another language unique! :P /joke
 
> t looks like pandoc is being linked against unix-2.6 and unix-2.7 at the same time?
OH HEY
hey hey hey hey
 
user1804599
I chuckle when people say they know many programming languages, where "many" means JavaScript, PHP, Python, and Ruby; or C#, D, Dart, Java, and Vala.
 
user1804599
Because s/, (and )?/≈/g.
 
Ven
well, yeah.
 
3:31 PM
Well, I think I have moved and deleted like 150 GiB out of the drive I want to replace with the SSD. 403 GiB in use seems manageable.
 
Ven
wtf is that DELETE macro available with MSVC?
 
@Ven Some Win32 API symbol?
 
Ven
:[
 
// begin_wdm
//
// The following are masks for the predefined standard access types
//

#define DELETE (0x00010000L)
 
Ven
Well, thanks.
 
3:39 PM
WinAPI helpful as usual
nuke <windows.h> from orbit
 
@Ven Why is it a problem for you?
 
Ven
HTTP verbs :P
huh, boost::string_ref doesn't provide a way "back" to std::string? Doing an actual copy. like std::string(ref.data(), ref.size())
 
user1804599
Is there a secure string class for C++? With stuff like volatile zero reset on destruction, swap disabling, and possibly encryption.
 
Xeo
prolly somewhere
 
@MadameElyse TBH I would settle if all programmers never knew more than any set of these. That would be a huuuuuge improvement
@MadameElyse Yup. It enables you to deal in abstractions and just /do the work required/ in the language you have
 
user1804599
3:43 PM
Also fun: to minimise the chance that a password is accidentally logged:
 
user1804599
newtype Password = Password String

instance Show Password where
    show = const "********"
 
@wilx Because it's a macro...
 
user1804599
@sehe None of these languages are well-suited for some problems.
 
@sehe That's obvious. I am asking how does it affect him.
 
@Ven yes. .str() iirc. Could be .to_string().
@wilx Well. That's asking the obvious too
 
3:45 PM
Man, I am scared of tinkering with the working PC just to move to the SSD :(
 
Ven
Went ahead and looked at the source, because the docs for string_ref are from .53. Thanks @sehe, that was it indeed
 
@MadameElyse ikr, did you see what I stated? Do you disagree?
 
I want somebody else to do it so that I have somebody else to blame when it breaks.
 
@MadameElyse Smart
@wilx I love lvm2 for just that. I'm attached to live-migrating a system - while running - onto different hardware
Requires a bit of foresight. But I had that ~10 years ago. It's paid back many times.
 
I probably would have had a hard time getting LVM setup at first place.
 
3:47 PM
These days, though, I admit to simplifying to /just/ ext4/btrfs for root and /just/ ZFS for anything else
 
user1804599
@sehe I don't really see it.
 
@wilx Debian/ubuntu installers have supported it OotB for ~10 years ("alternative install iso")
 
user1804599
Some languages that are not in those sets are necessary for solving some problems, and people who solve those problems must know them.
 
@MadameElyse It would be an enormous improvement if people who knew one out of either set also learned the rest of the set.
 
user1804599
It would be more helpful if they learned one of the other set instead of one of the same set.
 
user1804599
3:49 PM
If you already know Java, prefer learning Ruby over learning C#.
 
@MadameElyse That's where you're wrong. They're not necessary. You admitted it yourself. That you happen to /like/ learning paradigms and abstractions from evaluating languages that have them as core features, doesn't mean it's required to acquire them
 
user1804599
@sehe They are. None of the languages I listed are suitable for hard real-time applications.
 
@MadameElyse I agree. I was putting out a baseline. You were belittling the knowledge inside these sets, and I disagree.
It's not chuckle-worthy. It's encouragement worthy. Perhaps with a mild frown and a tilted head
@MadameElyse Absolutely
@MadameElyse I think you're being absolutist again. It all comes down to ye olde "you can do anything in assembly" bottomline in the end. We've been here before (as lounge) and I know you realize it.
 
If I already know C++, what is the best way to learn Java?
 
plonk
 
user1804599
3:54 PM
Write programs in Java and post them on Code Review.
 
@SashaMN forget about the useful bits: you know java
 
@SashaMN you don't know C++
 
Ven
@sehe You also know elyse likes to be absolutist for the sole reason it's a thing
 
nobody does really
 
@BartekBanachewicz Nobody knows C++
 
3:55 PM
so why are you asking questions based on false premises?
 
@SashaMN what
 
except Bjarne Stroustrup
jk
 
this is the bullshit they teach you in uni
 
Ven
Bjarne knows how to twinkle and sparkle for sure, but is that enough to code in C++?
 
@Ven lol
 
Ven
3:56 PM
.oO( You twinkle my inner bjarne )
 
user1804599
@sehe Wait, I'm confused now. With this message, did you mean to say everyone should know either one of JavaScript, PHP, Python, and Ruby or either one of C#, D, Dart, Java, and Vala?
 
Ven
I think he meant he'd be happy if programmers knew at least all from one set
 
user1804599
I don't really care about the skillsets of other people unless I have to work or argue with them.
 
@sehe whats an absolutist o.o (in this context)
 
user1804599
care as in be annoyed if too small
 
4:00 PM
> 7:19 with a game-saving
7:20 and then when the game lags and I pause if I open the menu on a certain frame
7:25 it does a certain type of save corruption that
7:28 glitches out my sword menu and replaces it with nothing but short swords so
7:32 erm that's useful later on
His speed run is full of "exploits" like this. He's weird
 
@sehe that's the best part of speedruns
 
@sehe gotta go fast
 
exploits, glitches and so on
otherwise it's just one guy playing a game normally but fast
 
IDGI I'd hate gaming even more if that was required
 
speedruns aren't "gaming" they're about the challenge and for entertainment
 
Xeo
4:02 PM
@sehe That's what many speedruns are pretty much about
 
speedrunners don't have fun as their goal, they have beating others as their goal
 
Xeo
finding glitches and bugs that allow you to complete the game faster
 
user1804599
Man shot inside Paris police station. Just announced that terror threat is at highest level. Germany is a total mess-big crime. GET SMART!
 
user1804599
lol
 
@Xeo teehee // TIL
 
Xeo
4:02 PM
You should watch GDQ
 
since speedrunners have things like world records, beating a world record is a major draw :P
 
@MadameElyse Huh. Confuse and conquer I suppose
 
@sehe As long as you do it on original hardware with a real controller and no external device, it's legit.
 
@MadameElyse Wait, how does Germany enter in this picture?
 
user1804599
@TonyTheLion Paris is the capital of Germany.
 
4:04 PM
@sehe it is not required
 
@sehe Yesterday there was a 4 man race at AGDQ for Super Mario World. The goal was a "0 exit": namely, finish the game without finishing a single level.
 
Ven
Cosmo is amazing <3. If you like this sort of memory corruption bugs, check out the Pokemon speedruns (swaps the warp point in memory to the end of the game)
 
To do that you need to abuse a few glitches to cause a buffer overrun somewhere and write a value at the right memory address... which causes you to warp to the end credits.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Makes sense I suppose. I feel we are already living in separate universes, science just hasn't picked up on it
 
Ven
and the ocarina of time. Old runs had RBA (reverse bottle adventure?) which allowed you to swap items using memory shenanigans. Recent runs do the same thing as pokemon
 
4:05 PM
@AlexM. WoW leveling records are nice
 
out of all the AGDQ speedruns I liked HL2's the most
 
And there's the whole "beat Ocarina of Time in 15 minutes" where you make the game think that what's on the other side of the door is the end of the game.
 
Noir skipped a whole chapter in like 10 seconds lol
 
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz ..you really think that?
 
user1804599
 
Ven
4:07 PM
As someone who has maxed every class in the game: it's boring...
 
but really I think I like watching any game with bunnyhopping in
@Ven it's to break records
 
@AlexM. Watching a speedrun of Half-Life feels like watching a speedrun of Quake 2.
 
Ven
Yeah, sure, but a WoW leveling speedrun is 50hrs+ ...
 
it can't be boring since your goal is breaking a record
 
Ven
oooh, Half life speedruns are pretty amazing if you like bunny hopping
 
4:08 PM
Bunnyhopping, grenade boosting, those weird super far jumps with crates...
 
Ven
they also do crazy shit like flying on a cardboard or a plank
 
Xeo
@EtiennedeMartel SethBling was in that one, wasn't he?
 
@Xeo IIRC, yeah. Carl Sagan won though.
 
Xeo
IIRC he was the one that brought that glitch from TASing to "normal" people.
 
@Xeo New avatar?
 
4:08 PM
@sehe Check this out. Just don't look at the chat or you'll get eyeball cancer.
 
@MadameElyse it is the capital of the german empire since WWII
 
the most boring speedrun so far was age of empires :<
looked forward to it but it was not what I expected I think
not very exciting
 
... in red alert universe
 
Ell
there are so many programming languages :V
 
Ven
@AlexM. also, full of glitch: mortal kombat superplays. not really speedruns, just glitch abuse a lot
 
user1804599
4:09 PM
@Ell lol today. noob
 
Ven
@Ell yeah, but they're going to change this one up a lot soon
 
Ell
@MadameElyse is it good?
 
user1804599
I don't know.
 
kaizo mario was nice but since the guy knew the levels so well it was too smooth
 
user1804599
Never tried it.
 
4:10 PM
But basically speedrunning these days requires skills both in gaming and debugging.
 
anyone remember the shotgun madman in paris last year?
 
seeing people fail at those things is more entertaining than seeing them win :P
 
Ven
Lies, you had a project in Crystal, @MadameElyse. I remember it.
 
user1804599
Nope, I hadn't.
 
@Mr.kbok we're talking about games
is that a game?
 
Ven
4:11 PM
Then github must've messed up the tagging, because you had a repo with that language tag
 
@AlexM. well "shotgun madman" could be a game
 
user1804599
Yes, indeed.
 
user1804599
It was a fork of the Crystal repo.
 
Ven
ah :D
 
@Ven my favourite is link's awakening. he defeats the boss with a shovel
 
Ven
4:12 PM
Oooh, that's pretty good. How about a link between worlds? He just glitches into the void and is... inside both worlds at the same time :3
 
> TIL There was a Parrot named Alex that had a vocabulary of over 100 words. He was said to have the intelligence of a 5 year old. The last words he said to his trainer before passing away were "See you tomorrow, be good. I love you!"
plot twist, I'm that parrot's reincarnation
 
you do have a vocabulary of over 100 words
5
 
@AlexM. He said that every evening.
 
I also have the intelligence of a 5 year old
since any intelligence > 5 year old implies that I also have the intelligence of a 5 year old
I'm a parrot confirmed
 
Ven
Shittiest plot twist ever.
 
4:15 PM
it could be worse
 
lol this class has 80 member variables
oh well, make it 81
plot twist: alex actually the plot twist
 
@Mr.kbok build the classzilla
 
I'd like to have a real dependency graph between commits
like, what each commit really depends on
 
what does dependency mean in this context?
 
@AlexM. required ancestors to cherry pick it somewhere
 
4:19 PM
@Mr.kbok maybe you want Darcs
@Mr.kbok yeah sounds like that
 
@BartekBanachewicz I should take a look, yeah
@AlexM. In your branch you have like "improve A" then "improve B" then "implement A x B yaoi romance"
 
got it
 
okay cool because the explanation was going to be very shitty
the practical aspect is that sometimes you do a lot of yak shaving left and right before actually implementing the feature, and you want to deliver the yak shavings only
 
Ven
If it was gonna imply yaoi romance, it better not be shitty.
 
once the yaks are merged into the mainstream, you want to know if your feature is deliverable as-in or needs merge
@Ven tweek x craig
 
Xeo
4:33 PM
Fuck me, I'll head off to sleep. Head's about to burst.
 
funny thing is
if someone would fuck you, the headache would go away
:P
 
Ell
I need to switch to nouvea soon
but effort and risk
 
Ven
@AlexM. prolactinnnnnnn
 
> Et il ramona Lisa
 
@BartekBanachewicz I created an account :3
 
4:42 PM
> Elle ne s'est pas fait tirer que le portrait
 
@AlexM. Yet a headache is classic reason for not having sex.
 
@JerryCoffin: hi
 
@PravasiMeet Hello.
 
@JerryCoffin: May I ask you for a little help if you don't mind?
@JerryCoffin: what does it mean that templates in C++ lack good interfaces?
 
see concepts
 
Ven
4:48 PM
I need new music :[
 
@PravasiMeet You can always ask, but I'm fairly busy at the moment, so unless the question is particularly interesting or has a fairly simple answer, it'll probably be a while (at best) before I can post any sort of answer.
 
@milleniumbug: I know that quality of templates error messages improved very nicely due to concepts but why C++ template error messages are so horrible, long, unreadable & hard to decipher?
@JerryCoffin: ok. why C++ template error messages are so horrible, long, unreadable & very hard to decipher?
 

Why C++ compiler errors are bad

Sep 13 '15 at 13:41, 23 minutes total – 82 messages, 8 users, 5 stars

Bookmarked Dec 17 '15 at 13:38 by milleniumbug

 
Ven
because people don't use static_assert correctly :^)
 
I always think :^) is a pinocchio smiley
 
4:50 PM
@milleniumbug: thanks for that conversation link. It seems to be good & helpful.
 
but it doesn't look like it if you tilt your head like this
holy shit it's in 3d
if you tilt your head
 
Ven
I just rekt your mind
 
:°)
it's a clown
 
@PravasiMeet Basically because templates are open to being interpreted based on all types visible at either the point of definition or the point of instantiation, so when it fails the compiler typically lists everything it considered, and finally says (in essence): "but none of that worked".
@AlexM. It's actually a snowman smiley.
 
@PravasiMeet They're not too bad once you have enough years of experience of banging your head on them. :p
 
4:56 PM
Right
I need to make a special global_table class.
 
@caps Getting used to their being awful doesn't mean they aren't awful (though, in fairness, compilers have improved a lot in this respect, and people typically do a lot more to help them now than they did years ago).
 
reminds me of that uncle ben (sorry I just can't remember the name :<) talk
about being good at using a debugger being a bad thing
 

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