« first day (1771 days earlier)      last day (3194 days later) » 

10:00 PM
@Puppy They aren't, I would have to use sprout for a constexpr standard library.
 
yeah those two whole curly braces must be killing you
@Morwenn Well, they're also not range-based, so...
 
user1804599
stop playing counter strike
 
user1804599
it's not for dogs
 
@Puppy Yeah, that.
 
Ell
I am in Prague woop
 
10:03 PM
Well, honestly I find T...[N] confusing as syntax
Nothing against the concept per se, but the syntax is terrible
 
@Ell Nice.woop
 
@Morwenn So really it seems to me that the language isn't the issue here, it's the lib
 
[N] means C style arrays
 
@Puppy On the other hand, there will be a language solution too with the fold expressions.
 
meh I'm not really feeling those.
 
10:05 PM
so...if we get T...[N], can we also get indexing into a pack with []? :D
 
user1804599
fold expressions are really stupid.
 
Fold expressions could be replaced by std::rightfold and std::leftfold functions without a problem.
 
user1804599
another shitty feature you have to learn all the details, edge-cases and traps of, and which has almost no benefits
 
user1804599
and one which doesn't work with, say, vectors
 
Worse: they go against DRY.
 
10:07 PM
@Morwenn constexpr?
 
user1804599
Is a constexptr another smart pointer type?
 
And the count is in, over the past two decades, the GTA series has sold 220 million units.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ constexptr, yeah.
 
user1804599
kontsexpr
 
user1804599
kontsex is Dutch for butt sex
 
10:08 PM
@elyse I guess just don't use them v0v
@Morwenn Is there something that you could do with fold expressions but not with fold functions?
 
user1804599
Pass operators without a lot of boilerplate.
 
shit... i need to create a font atlas
 
@elyse That.
You'd need function objects to work with fold functions.
 
user1804599
You can't say f(operator+, xs...).
 
user1804599
You need to create a lambda, which is a lot of code.
 
10:10 PM
rfold<std::plus<>>(xs...)
 
std::plus<T>()
 
user1804599
right
 
That's not too bad
 
std::plus<>, not std::plus<T>
 
Well, both work, but one deduces the type
 
10:11 PM
The only additional thing they offer is for operator,.
 
well, it also mandates the return type.
 
user1804599
@Morwenn how about lazy && and ||?
 
@elyse You can have that
 
@elyse Good point I guess.
 
user1804599
How?
 
10:12 PM
The body can be first_element && std::rightfold(..., rest)
With recursion
 
Ell
@andyprowl I may ask you for a little help in translation tomorrow if its okay. I'll type up a draft and send it to you somehow if its okay :)
 
Yeah, but rest will be fully evaluated.
 
They will? Why?
 
user1804599
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ eh, no
 
user1804599
Arguments in C++ are evaluated before the function body is executed.
 
10:14 PM
Also C++ doesn't have tail recursion optimization AFAIK
 
user1804599
C++ has no lazy or by-name arguments.
 
user1804599
TCO is irrelevant as fuck.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ It most certainly does.
 
user1804599
f(std::cout << 'x'); will always print x before calling f.
 
@elyse Would make a recursive version of said function non optimal
@Puppy It does?
 
user1804599
10:15 PM
We're talking about evaluation strategy, not about optimisations.
 
yes.
 
sdl doesn't have support for getting physical screen dimensions
 
TCO is a basic feature of pretty much all compiler optimizers, ever.
 
rip
 
@Ell Sure, no problem. What do you need to translate? English -> Czech?
 
Ell
10:15 PM
Yes :)
 
@Puppy Oh ok, nevermind.
 
Ell
I could use google translate and send you it for corrections, or I could just type up the situation and English and you can write a translation for me. Either would be greatly appreciated :)
 
@elyse Yes, and I proposed a version that I thought would solve the problem. But then I realized that without TCO that "solution" could not seriously be considered.
 
user1804599
No, it won't.
 
Ell
I need to write it up in English clearly first though so it will be tomorrow at some point, early afternoon likely
 
10:17 PM
Why do I always have to explain obvious things to you
It's so tiresome
 
user1804599
eh
 
user1804599
f(xs...) will evaluate all xs, then call f.
 
1 min ago, by ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ
@Puppy Oh ok, nevermind.
 
user1804599
Whether the body of f uses short-circuiting operators or not is irrelevant.
 
Yes, I initially thought you were talking about short circuiting
 
user1804599
10:18 PM
bool f(bool a, bool b) {
    return a || b;
}

f(true, (throw 1, false));
 
user1804599
this will always throw
 
Which is pretty much the only way in which you can have "lazy evaluation" in C++, if at all
 
user1804599
Yes, but you can't provide it in your own API.
 
user1804599
Even overloading && and || causes them to be not short-circuiting.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Just do what everybody else does in every other language and pass in a function that returns the expression.
@elyse Yes, but there's pretty much no value to overloading them anyway.
 
user1804599
10:24 PM
Point is, std::rightfold<std::and<>>(xs...) will always evaluate all xs, no matter how the callee is implemented.
 
@elyse Haha, non, that won't compile.
 
user1804599
Why not?
 
@Morwenn that lone french word in the middle :P
 
user1804599
right
 
user1804599
10:25 PM
and is a keyword
 
user1804599
another trap of this wonderful language called C++
 
std::logical_and will work on the other hand.
@Borgleader I swear I only tried to write "no". But the N key is close to the comma one -_-
 
@wilx ?
 
@wilx eh, the pikachu one is better :P
 
@elyse Which is really completely fine.
 
10:28 PM
@sehe What do you not understand? :)
 
user1804599
Yes, but @ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ's example exploits a fictional by-name setting where this weren't the case.
 
Ell
What are the advantages of lazy eval?
 
user1804599
but he doesn't want to listen to me explaining why he's wrong
 
@Ell Laziness.
 
@elyse lol, I know I was wrong
 
10:29 PM
@Ell Occassionally it's pretty important to prevent e.g. infinite recursion or calculating things you don't need. It's not really important otherwise.
 
user1804599
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ good boy :3
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Beg forgiveness.
 
user1804599
/me licks @ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ
 
sometimes you see uses like p && p->x as well
 
BAM
 
10:31 PM
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ I know, she must stop beating yo' ass up. I am really glad you didn't file charges, it would place a strain on our friendship.
 
user1804599
@Ell just consider && and ?:, for example.
 
user1804599
Also, the ability to construct infinite sequences may result in more concise code.
 
Ell
okay cool
 
user1804599
There are more use cases of lazy evaluation.
 
Sometimes I miss Haskell. For a very brief period of time.
 
user1804599
 
most of the time that I've used &&, it didn't really matter if it short-circuited or not.
and ?: is really not short-circuiting at all.
 
user1804599
If ?: were not lazy, false ? throw 1 : 1 would throw.
 
that's not true.
 
user1804599
It would evaluate all arguments.
 
if statements are not lazy, and if (false) throw 1; else 1; does not throw.
 
user1804599
10:35 PM
Right. The arguments are lazy, not ?: itself.
 
not really.
there is nothing lazy about a simple branch.
 
user1804599
> Hitlers Müllentsorgungsgesellschaft
 
user1804599
> Müllentsorgungsgesellschaft
 
you could just as well argue that loops are lazy because they terminate instead of evaluating the body again.
 
Some misconceptions regarding eager/lazy, but Puppy is on point.
Them eager beavers.
I would like to send a nice greeting to you all from callback hell. Moving to the 4th closure... My god.
 
user1804599
10:41 PM
@Puppy loops are a much more generic concept than the ?: operator.
 
user1804599
Which is a concrete implementation of a concept.
 
that's not really relevant.
both exhibit exactly the same behaviour in this regard.
either they evaluate a thing or they don't evaluate a thing.
 
user1804599
Namely, a function that takes a strict Boolean and two lazy values, and evaluates one of the values only and returns it.
 
user1804599
a ? b : c isn't lazy.
 
user1804599
But ?: is lazy in two of its arguments.
 
user1804599
10:42 PM
Loops aren't functions or operators.
 
user1804599
You're confusing functions with function applications.
 
they certainly can be if you want them to be.
there's nothing different between a loop and ?:.
 
user1804599
There is.
 
with respect to this particular effect, anyway.
 
user1804599
[] (int a, int b, int c) { for (a : range(b, c)) { } } for example isn't a loop.
 
user1804599
10:44 PM
Similarly ?: isn't a conditional expression.
 
you certainly could express a loop in a similar way if you wanted to.
 
user1804599
show me
 
void loop(std::function<bool()> condition, std::function<void()> body) { while(condition()) body(); }.
 
user1804599
Yes, then loop is the operator.
 
user1804599
But it's not a loop.
 
10:47 PM
loop isn't any more lazy than writing the exact same statement inline.
 
user1804599
It forms a loop when applied.
 
Guys, splitting hair territory reached.
 
@RadAway Ssshh. Bring me popcorn.
 
user1804599
I have only got copporn.
 
pushcorn
 
user1804599
10:50 PM
korn
 
swapcorn - now it's all mine
 
@elyse Which is far too often an alias for gayporn. Or so I've heard.
 
How do I create a tag?
[this-doesnt-work]
but i want something like [morwenn-so-rebel]
 
[tag:this-works]
 
10:54 PM
like
p.s. Thanks.
 
this is good, death by @R.MartinhoFernandes
oh boy... i havent written python in a looooooooooooooooooong time
google all the things!
 
We're really just designers that know how to code
:p
 
11:12 PM
@Ell What is it for? Accommodation? I think most people dealing with tourists here speak some English so you should be fine sending an email in English, but sure, no problem
 
Ell
It's a police report, my brother did a robot :L
4
 
oh shite
what happened?
 
Ell
he left his passport and interrail ticket on the train
 
where are you now, in Prague?
 
Ell
yeah :)
 
11:14 PM
I'll do my best, actually I speak Slovak, not Czech, but Czech police hopefully won't mind
or I can try translating it to Czech but I'll likely make some mistakes
maybe @wilx could help better if he has time
 
@AndyProwl What?
 
@wilx translating a police report from English to Czech
 
Ell
I have never written a police report in any language though so I have research to do :S
 
usually it's police who writes the report
I mean, you go there, they talk to you, they ask you question, they write the report
at least it worked like that for me
 
Yeah, I think Andy is right.
Also, if you speak English, even our Police should be able to communicate with you.
 
11:17 PM
are you guys coming to Brno anyway?
 
Well, if you really need some help, I guess I can.
 
@Ell hah
 
> did a robot
:D
 
Ell
oh I thought I had to write it and get a signature
 
I don't think so, but I'm not really an expert
 
Ell
11:18 PM
we will be coming to Brno anyway yes
 
cool
 
@Ell Hmm... I think if you get to a police station, they will ask you questions and type it themselves on a PC or such.
 
Ell
I see :)
 
likely on a PC running Win 98 but yeah that's how it works
hm, maybe in Prague they'll be more up to date
 
Ell
I will probably have just a google translate version of the situation written out anyway
If they will likely speak English itll probably be fine anyway
 
11:20 PM
sure, send it anyway, tomorrow I'll be away for about 2 hours after lunch but as soon as I can I'll try to help
 
Hi everyone.
 
@Ell Also, your brother has left his passport somewhere and is without documents, you should have him call your embassy, I think. They can AFAIK issue temporary documents or such. In this country, if you cannot produce some ID, they can detain you until they ascertain your identity. Though it rarely ever happens because they should have a probable cause to ID you in first place.
 
Ell
Yeah we onyl arrived earlier , going to the embassy is on our agenda tomorrow
 
@AndyProwl Win 98 is #1.
 
user1804599
@Ell where are you?
 
11:26 PM
Now to wait for Vulkan.
 
Has anyone ever hooked up an android phone to a large display with like hdmi out
 
Ell
@elyse Prague
 
@Prismatic Why would you do that?
 
user1804599
Why are you there?
 
@Ell Exact address, please.
 
11:27 PM
@Nooble stalker D:
 
Guys
 
@Borgleader Hi Borg. Can I have the last 16 digits of your credit card number?
 
I don't know, to watch a movei or something. Im kind of curious as to how it works
 
@Prismatic Its mirrored
 
Time for a pool party update
 
11:28 PM
@Nooble 0123456789ABCDEF
:)
 
@Mikhail that doesn't make much sense to me
 
@Borgleader Thanks :)
 
Ell
@elyse omon horriday
 
@Nooble lol, tutorials for something that doesn't even exist yet from the public's perspective, a website by a 22 year old who hasn't even touched the API yet.
 
or maybe you want to use a projector for a powerpint
 
11:30 PM
"Late 2015" reads as Q1 2016 at best.
 
@RadAway It's on GitHub.
 
A lot of things are on GitHub, and like a lot of things, currently it is useless.
And to write tutorials, one first needs experience with something, even an hour.
Not -8 months of experience.
 
@RadAway Who said anything about it being useful? I said it was neat.
 
Ell
the API isn't going to be very complicated
 
^ and that to.
It's a lot like Mantle anyway.
So I doubt you'll need ~8 months.
 
Ell
11:34 PM
I expect it not to require many tutorials about th e api itssef
 
It won't be out in 8 months, is what I am saying.
Late 2015 is rather optimistic
 
Ell
why?
 
I'm just happy there's a website for it :)
 
Ell
It wa already written pretty much :P
Intel has drivers already
 
@Ell Yeah mostly theory I think.
 
Ell
11:35 PM
IIRC
 
@Ell They're public?
 
Nope, it's just an overview
And if the API is going to be useful at all, it will be rather complicated. At the surface easy, but when you get to using it, you'll find yourself quite easily uncomfortable.
The whole idea of the next generation of APIs is to let you do the work. If it's not complicated, it is not the API it's supposed to be.
 
Ell
@rad that is not correct. Libraries are for hiding as most complexity as possible
Its not complicated
It's simple and explicit
That doesn't mean its easy to use
 
For people who need complexity hidden, Microsoft (and their equivalents) recommend staying with DirectX 11 and OpenGL. These are not successors, they are alternatives for very advanced, low level graphics programmers who can and want to take the most out of modern GPUs.
 
Yes, and being a C style library its going to be painful
 
Ell
11:42 PM
Opengl is complicated
Opengl has a ridiculous amount of global state
 
OpenGL is ancient and has been dragging on its baggage for 2 decades.
 
Ell
Vulkan will be more simple than opengl imho
 
It will be better, but not simpler. It will dump all the work OpenGL did for you on your lap.
 
newer GLSL did that...
 
Oh, no.
 
Ell
11:44 PM
I disagree. It will be simpler
 
Synchronization between the CPUs and the GPU (and/or GPUs) and synchronization between the GPUs themselves if you're dancing explicit multiadapter. Explicit resource renaming, no hazard tracking, etc.
 
Ell
But we will have to wait
Getting multiple adaptors to work in opengl is complicated
I havent tried mind
I'm not qualified for this discussion
But my unqualified opinion is that it will be simpler
An API with less features tends to be a simpler API
 
@RadAway What is hazard tracking anyway?
@Ell Yeah. Easy to use or not, it'll be simpler I think.
 
Rachel McAdams is cute.
 
@Nooble Lifetime tracking of resources in GPU memory, you cannot willy-nilly let the runtime do safety precautions for you. Resource renaming is a part of it, making sure that the previous frame is done with the resources before rewriting them, usually done by the driver by carving out memory for you.
 
11:47 PM
Also, Red Eye film was not bad.
 
And orphaning the old one once it is done... Basically, a whole world of pain in a system like a game engine if you're clumsy.
 
@RadAway Sounds like manual memory management.
 
Yes.
DirectX 12 introduces heaps as a memory management primitive.
You make sure of residency in GPU memory, you make sure of eviction.
 
heaps and heaps of heaps?
 
@RadAway Manual memory management isn't hard though.
It's harder.
 
11:51 PM
It also almost always has poorer performance: see this research paper: dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1736059
 
Nothing is hard when you know what you're doing. But it does take a lot more work, especially as you have to synchronize between the cores, the cores with the GPU(s) and decide where stuff goes, verify if you can put somewhere etc. Evict stuff you don't need, introduce ring buffers to effectively circumvent alignment requirements etc.
 
@RadAway Synchronize with cores 0_o
What.
 
Concurrency is the banner of the unlocked performance with both DX12 and Vulkan. No more contexts, only command queues and command lists, you shuffle them off. Many times multiple cores can ignore each other, but sometimes, there are interdependencies, you have to wait and signal other cores so they can perform they work if they depend on the results of a previous command list.
With DirectX 12, one can for example render the scene on the main GPU and then trickle the data back to system memory for post processing on the internal GPU, starting the next frame on the main GPU (and maybe other GPUs, up to 4 today).
Unreal's experimental implementation gave a 4 frames boost with such an approach.
 
@RadAway An extra 4 fps?
Or 4 times?
 
4-5 frames a second
 
11:55 PM
Aww.
 
which is significant, once you compound it with other stuff.
 
There goes my dreams of perfect multiple GPU scaling.
 
oh, if you have 4 Titan Xs
you can get n times improvement, if you can figure out how to communicate effectively and enqueue work
if you don't care, of course, AFR is still an option
 
@RadAway Yeah wouldn't it be great if all the devs implemented that :D
By "cores" do you mean threads?
 
@RadAway any n with 4 titans? :p
 
11:57 PM
Yup, but the most useful threads are the ones running on other physical cores, along with HT benefits. This in turns helps generate a massive amount of draw calls.
4 with 4 titans, theoretically, one could get 25 TFLOPS out of 4 of those.
but that will have to wait because SLi is shit
NVLink and Pascal, 2016.
SLi and Crossfire were only meant to exchange sync info and other trivial data, about 1 GB/s bandwidth which is crap. Easier to send it back via PCIe and in again.
NVLink promises ~60 GB/s bandwidth
 
@RadAway What's with the lowercase I.
 
Wasn't it stylized like that?
 
Nope.
SLI and NVIDIA.
 

« first day (1771 days earlier)      last day (3194 days later) »