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11:00 AM
@MarkGarcia No I'm serious
I'm tired of seeing questions on Reddit and SO that could've been destroyed before they were posted had there been better resources on the web
 
@Cinch I know. :)
 
That's me too.
Why not separate the two concerns--Stack Overflow becomes issue-based, Coder Cove becomes topic-based
That way, the two can work hand and hand and make sure that we have excellent resources for "beginner" programmers
(Like me)
 
interesting how your "example question" is not actually a question.
 
@Puppy They won't be questions
They'll be topics, damn right!
No questions, just answers.
 
that's an interesting proposal for a question and answer site.
"It's a question and answer site where there will be no questions, but there'll still be answers to ... something."
 
11:14 AM
@Puppy The fact is that questions are on Stack Overflow
The answers are there, but it takes a master to string the correct material together to produce something coherent that those at a lower level and digest
 
so you're proposing a new Q&A site where the questions will be on an existing Q&A site?
then you randomly also post answers to a separate site?
 
@Cinch Those "at a lower level" can also learn to learn.
 
@Cinch Which is exactly what SO is for. You just ask a good question and then the relevant experts do that thing for you.
 
@Puppy That's not the thing though. SO is not meant for programming tutorials.
SO is issue-based and basically "patchwork" or "aha! I see it now!"
 
the Q&A format is fundamentally unfit for programming tutorials and will never work that way.
 
11:16 AM
@Puppy Exactly
 
@Cinch In part because the format is horrible for such purposes.
 
That's why I think a central site in the form of SO can still fit the format
 
"I see your point that it's completely not at all what I want. Therefore, I'm going to recommend that it be used for what I want."
 
It would require links to an appropriate question and need aggregate momentum
Once evidence is given that the question keeps popping up or needs to be answered, a topic would be commissioned by a mod or an editor
A permanent subject would be opened up where answers could contribute sections to the final piece
 
11:18 AM
That's not how SE sites work vOv
 
unless you're going to pay answerers, nobody is going to answer on commission.
 
@Puppy No, I mean a "question" would be opened and upvoted
 
and certainly not on some random other site when they could just post answers on SO.
 
@Puppy That's not the thing, though
for example, someone needs to learn the true significance of smart pointers in a digestable way
 
then they should find an appropriate book or other online resource, not head for Q&A.
 
11:19 AM
@Cinch Then they pick a book and read about it.
 
SSCCE would still apply here, but we would do it in a more educational format rather than a peer-learning format
 
unless "How do i smart pointer" is a valid question which it probably would be.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Not everyone has the time to pull out a book, though
 
@Cinch Then they don't have the time to learn the subject matter.
 
@Cinch Not everyone has the time to learn?
 
11:20 AM
you can't just arbitrarily reduce the time needed to learn shit.
 
@Puppy Many college students don't have the time
 
FFS
Kids these days
 
some formats are more efficient than others, sure, but there's a big limit on how much you can compress information without loss.
 
@Cinch Then they fundamentally cannot learn.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes They are dealing with other subjects (like electrophysics or calculus) that need their time
 
11:20 AM
what you're proposing would be akin to an infinite compression algorithm, which fundamentally can never exist.
 
17 secs ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
@Cinch Then they fundamentally cannot learn.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I disagree.
 
@Cinch It's a fact of life that you can't learn everything at once.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Therefore, why not create resources that structure it in the correct way?
We create pathways to learning
 
@Cinch That's a non sequitur.
@Cinch You mean, like books?
 
11:22 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Books are often too long and indigestible and not always the most friendly
 
If books are so good, why don't more people just pick up a few C++ books and learn?
 
@Cinch Not really, especially with programming ones.
 
None of that is an inherent property of a book.
 
if you think the existing books are bad, then write another one.
 
11:22 AM
Why do people go to college or a coding boot camp?
 
@Cinch Because they are lazy fucks. That simple.
 
@Puppy I don't think that solves the problem.
 
because they're stupid and/or have no other choice.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes No. Not everyone can just learn from a book.
 
you can't learn C++ in 24 hours no matter what resource you use.
 
11:23 AM
@Cinch Why not?
 
in fact
I'd wager that if you wanted to learn C++ in 24 months, you'd probably need my personal attention.
 
You assume that people who can't learn from a book are "dumb." But alas! What if they have been poorly trained by their environment to learn from a book? It's not their fault. Even above average people in the wrong environment can be permanently gimped.
 
@Cinch I didn't.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well you assume they're lazy.
 
You assumed that there exist people dumb enough to be unable to learn.
 
11:24 AM
Welp, from Q&A to books.
 
1 min ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
@Cinch Because they are lazy fucks. That simple.
 
@Cinch If they don't pick up books, yes.
 
Some people cannot stomach books.
It's that simple.
Don't tell me everyone can.
Because they can't.
 
@Cinch That is complete bullshit.
 
I would not say that books are the optimal format for all learners.
 
11:25 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes I disagree.
 
but what I will say is that trying to shoehorn Q&A into something that it's completely unfit for is a terrible plan.
 
@Cinch The thing is, the thing you propose isn't fitting for SE's format. <-- Period
 
@Cinch Please elaborate on what makes books different as a medium.
 
@Puppy Sure? But then what? Do we wait along for somebody else to create the resource, then?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Can't grep dead trees :P
 
11:25 AM
Can one man create a better resource than an entire community?
 
yes.
 
@Puppy Books are not necessarily made of paper.
 
fair enough.
 
Mar 23 at 20:01, by milleniumbug
@DonLarynx I tried that approach once ("teaching stuff to people by writing stuff about programming"), and then found the people that needed it most didn't read it anyway, so yeah.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Pure text is almost an entirely non-visual and non-audio format
 
11:26 AM
@Cinch Exactly which characteristic of books makes them impossible to stomach?
 
if you took a book, turned it into not-dead-tree, add some live compile environments, and then you'd be doing better.
 
@Cinch WTF
@Cinch Have you ever picked up a book?
 
@Cinch Often as I've seen in programming book authors, most actually base on what's already accepted in the community.
 
Have you ever noticed that you can have whatever visual content you want in them?
 
@Cinch Why do you need audio for learning programming?
 
11:27 AM
"Pure text"?
 
@MarkGarcia Yes, but if the community itself is the stable source, make the community write it
@R.MartinhoFernandes Books often include pictures and the sort.
Some even include disks and compilers
But the bulk of many books are pure text
 
@Cinch You're proposing a wiki! There! That's it!
 
@Cinch So how does that make them impossible to stomach?
 
@MarkGarcia That seems more realistic.
 
makes me think "pure information" is formless - it could be in the form of text, sound or visual. But that's the manifestation, not the information itself.
 
11:27 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes The other factor is school itself.
 
no, it really isn't.
school is completely immaterial to this discussion.
 
@Cinch Technical books? Yeah, please actually look at some. You seem to not have an idea of what they are.
 
At least where I am, there is an increasingly widening division between "smart people" and "dumb people" due to how our society is structured.
 
obvious joke is obvious
 
Schools fail to properly incentivize their learning and media demonizes misunderstanding.
 
11:29 AM
@Cinch How is that a factor that affects books and not other media?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Many educational books are also intimately tied to the college system, at least here in the US, which is seen as stagnant and almost malicious with how they scrunge money out of their students.
 
@Cinch You're only spewing out complaints against complaints, what are you proposing as a whole?
 
@Cinch Blah blah blah blah what?
Malicious?
 
@Cinch Last I checked, books written by Stroustrup contain the same content in the UK as in the US.
 
@MarkGarcia I'm proposing that books are too thick as a format and many have the stigma of school and "learning" attached to them.
 
11:30 AM
@Cinch And that is relevant to your proposal... how?
 
People react badly to books sometimes.
 
@Cinch Which they should do, because learning is exactly what they'll do when they pick up an educational book.
 
Tough for them.
 
@milleniumbug Because I believe books are a bad medium for learning programming.
 
@Cinch You mean badly to learning?
 
11:31 AM
@Cinch That's still a complaint/some synonym of complaint.
 
I can read all of the major C++ recommendations, but I will learn nothing without application
 
They don't use the decent resources because they're prejudiced against the fucking medium?
Just fuck them.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Then you're not helping the problem.
The problem is social.
 
@Cinch That is true for all media.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Wrong, I can learn about history without application.
 
11:31 AM
@Cinch Then you won't fix it by slapping a different label on the media.
 
@Cinch Which is why you want to solve it with a website?
@Cinch You cannot read.
@Cinch Or you don't know English.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes For programming, the medium closest to the most helpful one, actually programming, is online tutorials
you can have them side by side and they're easily accessible
 
Programming is often issue-based, which is why SO is so popular
 
@Cinch What makes online tutorials so much better?
 
11:32 AM
But some people need help on the higher level
 
user1804599
haha
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes 1) You don't need to buy them. 2) The time and effort exerted from reading-to-coding is greatly reduced.
 
user1804599
You don't need <html>, <head> and <body> tags in HTML 5 documents.
 
user1804599
They're optional.
 
@Cinch We don't have yet a single, unified, perfect medium that fits all people's needs, so a diversity of sources (books, wikis, Q&As, web stuff) are there. If you complain about quality in a source you prefer then that's where you should put your effort on.
 
11:33 AM
> //do not delete, a default CTOR will be always created
//this way we at least know something is wrong
 
@Cinch #2 is nonsense. How did you reach that conclusion?
 
user1804599
<!doctype html><title></title> is a valid document.
 
0
Q: Template that uses another template

GalB1tI'm coding a toy calendar. It contains this template meeting type: #include <string> #include <iostream> #pragma once using namespace std; template <class T> class Meeting_t { private: T startTime; T endTime; string subject; public: Meeting_t(){ ...

 
Other than prejudice, I mean.
 
@rightfold Seriously? That's nice.
 
11:34 AM
@rightfold I like your avatar.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Take a book. Read it. How do you practice the topic?
 
user1804599
Thanks.
 
@Cinch s/book/online tutorial/
 
@rightfold In HTML, everything is a valid document!
 
From my own personal experience, I like reading math books because I usually write out my practice problems are exercises.
 
11:34 AM
@Cinch Will you start making sense at some point?
 
@rightfold You just created that avatar to be wanked off for it, didn't you
 
user1804599
No.
 
I apply my math skills by hand, and so I want to have a medium that's the fastest to transition from
 
@Columbo return NULL; will that even compile?
 
@Cinch What makes an online tutorial different in that respect?
 
11:35 AM
@rightfold Ok, not exclusively, but primarily
@milleniumbug Of course not. Isn't that the point?
 
@Cinch I'll answer it for you: absolutely nothing.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes For programming, you practice on the computer. You don't write out your code by hand in most situations.
 
user1804599
@Columbo No.
 
9 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
@Puppy Books are not necessarily made of paper.
 
Therefore, I want a medium closest to the environment I'll be practicing in.
 
11:35 AM
@rightfold Oh wait, you got a vagina, I forgot
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes E-books can be good as well, but again, they're not the smoothest experience either.
 
As usual, you clearly lack fundamental understanding of the subject matter, and yet are already dead set on your solutions.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes What's yours?
 
@Cinch What you're proposing is an e-book with a slightly different name.
 
@Cinch Yes, please elaborate on what makes them less smooth.
 
11:36 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Lag time for some PDF clients can be higher
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ebooks are shit.
 
Are. You. Fucking. Kidding. Me.
 
Formatting for certain file types can be less nice or comfortable than the nice web pages we have nowadays
 
@Cinch PDF != ebook
 
"Lag time for some PDF clients"?
 
11:37 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes No, I'm not.
 
Is that it?
@Cinch I don't even.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Not quite. Unless I have to quickly jump around in a document, and/or it's large, I prefer it in paper.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes It may seem like something small, but convenience can be a big factor.
 
You have no idea what you're talking about.
 
@Cinch What about EPUB, MOBI or even .txt or .html documents?
 
11:38 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Imagine if Google was just half a second slower. That's convenience.
 
@Columbo Didn't mean you. Sorry.
 
@milleniumbug I think I like EPUB. But even that takes extra effort. Never heard of MOBI. TXT lacks much formatting to create constructive aesthetics. HTML is what we have anyways, but that depends on what you use with it.
 
@Cinch Let's assume for a moment the reason you gave makes any sense whatsoever. So some people find it impossible to learn from books because some PDF readers are a bit slow?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes lel
 
clearly the solution is to create a better PDF reader then.
 
11:39 AM
@Puppy This can be one
 
Kids these days, really.
 
This could change a lot of things
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's a recurring pattern
 
@AndyProwl I agree.
 
however I doubt that anybody who can't cope with a half-second of lag on a PDF reader could possibly have the patience to program.
 
11:40 AM
@Cinch Yeah, like nothing.
 
But I don't care if I don't know anything.
Many of you don't seem to be actively working on solutions to the problem anyways.
 
that's because there is no problem.
 
It's not your problem but if you're gonna criticize me, why not help me?
@Puppy There is no problem?
 
@Cinch However, most of us try to actually understand the problems we try to solve before we start working on solutions.
 
@Cinch Actively working to solve a problem you don't seem to understand isn't very wise
 
11:40 AM
My entire C++ class has a U curve. A U curve. A U CURVE!
 
@Cinch Acrobat Reader 5.0 was so slow on my 166 MHz P1 with 64 MB RAM. Loading a page was like 15 seconds.
 
@Cinch Nope, there is no problem with the medium.
 
@Cinch wat?
also, anecdotal evidence is no evidence at all really.
 
My C++ class at a 4 year is a second-semester class being taught by a PhD.
 
@Cinch That is clearly caused by the fact that some people cannot stomach books because they're prejudiced.
 
11:41 AM
@Puppy Given enough droplets, we can create a rainstorm or a flood.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I never said it was all part of the solution.
 
@Cinch True, you only need fifteen quintillion of them.
 
@Cinch Yes, but droplets don't spontaneously multiply.
 
what it really comes down to is that you're whining about the education system you're in.
I appreciate that it's shit, it's shit here too.
 
@Cinch You never thought about the problem in the first place anyway.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes The fact that CS courses can be taught with bad materials isn't a strange topic.
 
11:42 AM
but you can't say "Education is shit; therefore something else is broken"
 
@Puppy You "appreciate"?
 
@Cinch I went through an education system too, you know.
 
@Puppy Education isn't just the public school system or the social paradigm.
 
guess what? it was shit.
 
Education is learning, in essence.
 
11:43 AM
the fact that it was shit is not the fault of PDF readers or book authors.
 
@Puppy Sure, but often times if the material is right, we can create eureka moments despite bad teachers.
 
@Cinch Which apparently some people can't do because of prejudice against a medium or because of slow PDF readers.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes You'd be surprised.
 
@Cinch What makes the material right is the content, not the medium.
 
Some people simply have "blocks" due to some prior experience.
 
11:44 AM
@Cinch Not... really. Only the people who effectively don't need instruction can work that way.
 
For example, many people believe that they can't do math.
 
@Cinch It's a completely ridiculous proposition; of course I would be surprised.
 
Many people believe they can't write.
Why? Because of the "evidence" that has "shown" them that they "can't do it."
 
@Cinch They need to overcome them, not work around them.
@Cinch Those "blocks" will be a terrible hindrance on anything they ever want to learn.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes You know, you can just choose to go around the wall to "get over it"
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, duh! Sometimes these walls are built too high and are too strong to fall by the age of 13.
That's why, when they are set in their ways, we need to find clever ways to waltz around their own mental blocks.
 
11:46 AM
@Cinch You cannot get over it without making an effort either. And come on, we're not talking about the loss of a loved one or rape; we're talking about some failed learning.
@Cinch That is bollocks. Laziness.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Are you kidding me? Don't tell me that people do not have trauma because they're considered "stupid" or "failures"
 
@Cinch Yes, and leave them hindered forever.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes My impression is that he just wants to write online tutorials, that being the quickest/fastest/easiest way of being seen as a teacher, which for some reason gives him a boner or something. ICBW but this is what I've been observing for the last few months
 
@Cinch The way to overcome that is not to avoid learning materials.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes An analogy: have you ever dealt with a person with depression?
 
11:47 AM
@Cinch No, we need to not make the blocks in the first place or to break the blocks down, not just walk around them.
 
@Cinch what
 
@Cinch I certainly have and let me tell you that it is not sufficient to simply shove ice cream down their throats. You need to address the actual cause of the problem and not jjust work around it.
 
@AndyProwl Perhaps on some marginal level but that is not my conscious motivation.
 
This is actually kinda funny.
 
@Puppy It's also not sufficient to tell them to just "overcome it"
 
11:48 AM
I know.
 
@Cinch Who advocated that?
 
but you can't work around it either.
 
@AndyProwl My impression is that Cinch talks a lot but does little.
 
you need to tackle the actual root cause.
 
Then I'll shut up and start working.
 
11:48 AM
@Cinch They have to overcome it. That's a fact, and it's not the same as saying "you just have to tell them they have to overcome it"
 
@Cinch I can't read your mind, it's just what I observe - just my impression. And I'm honestly sorry to sound mean, because I know you're a good guy. But this really needs to change IMO
Jan 24 at 11:42, by Andy Prowl
You seem to be after some kind of wisdom that comes from years of experience and is subjective anyway, but without going through that experience
 
@AndyProwl Wisdom comes from learning. Whether it's learning from your own or other's experience doesn't matter.
 
no, there are definitely some mistakes you just have to make yourself.
 
@Cinch Yeah but it definitely comes before teaching
 
Agreed. Like using Design Patterns for everything.
 
11:51 AM
IMHO we don't need to attract more people to programming, that'd create more badlets. Instead, we should improve the skills of the promising newbies, and don't let them become badlets.
 
@milleniumbug I want programming to be a literacy skill in about 50 years.
It will be relevant once robotics takes flight.
It's already extremely relevant to many major industries and IS a major industry.
I'm taking the "everyone should know programming in 50 years" route.
 
@Puppy wtf
Google going full retard
> References can be confusing, as they have value syntax but pointer semantics.
 
lol Google coding style
 
@Cinch Just like everyone should have learned to maintain and operate a steam engine in the 19th century, right?
 
> Do not use std::forward.
 
11:54 AM
@AndyProwl lel
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I think everybody should become a nuclear physicist.
 
> We do not use C++ exceptions.
 
They're essentially saying "All our developers are idiosyncratic lazy asses. We only get something done because we tell them to code in the most primitive and unupfuckable way possible, and we have a devils dozen for every project."
 
@Columbo The GSG is awful and we all already know it.
 
@Cinch How much programming should everybody know?
 
11:55 AM
@Puppy Why don't we ask @Mysticial on this?
 
@fredoverflow Everyone should be able to write a FizzBuzz.
 
Oh, wait. A devils dozen is 13. I meant a great hundred.
Which is 120.
 
@Griwes Good luck with that.
 
@fredoverflow Depends. I think at least some basic, yeah, FizzBuzz should be good.
 
@Cinch Why would we? He has the same GSG as the rest of us.
 
11:56 AM
Remember, regular literacy was once reserved for scribes and the elite.
 
@Columbo It's essentially Google dealing with its very large legacy codebase.
 
@Puppy On his opinion of it. and his former co-workers'
 
@milleniumbug In the worst fashion possible.
 
I think it's far more important that pupils understand how a sorting algorithm works in theory then being able to implement FizzButt.
 
@fredoverflow I was kinda sarcastic. I know it didn't have a chance to manifest itself from that sentence alone.
 
11:56 AM
@Cinch Regular literacy is a form of communication.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes How about math?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Found a place to stay yet?
 
How about it?
 
@milleniumbug Then they should separate those and any new code being written.
 
@Cinch His opinion is no more relevant than anybody else's, and furthermore, it's actually a bit less relevant since he'll openly admit that he doesn't really know C++.
 
11:57 AM
@Cinch wtf are you on about
 
@Cinch The majority of people have no clue about math.
 
@milleniumbug "Our existing code is shit. Therefore, we will make all future code shit too."
 
@Columbo Math beyond basic geometry used to be arcane.
 
@Griwes Yes, because they don't need to.
 
@Cinch Most pupils hate math. Why would they want to become programmers?
 
11:57 AM
People actually do algebra now. Some even get to trig.
@fredoverflow I still think people should have the exposure to it.
 
@Cinch .. yeah. What level are you on then, master?
 
@Columbo That's just some of them - the rest have no clue because they are too dumb to learn it.
 
@Griwes That's nonsense.
 
@Columbo Ask @sehe, I'm his padawan.
 
@Columbo Yeah, all booked.
 
11:58 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Cool :)
Near a tube?
 
@Cinch It still is.
@Cinch You just have to go out and see the world to realise that.
Hell, some basic geometry is arcane too.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes People are even confused by Monty Hall
@R.MartinhoFernandes E.g.?
 
@Columbo Perpendicularity, areas of basic shapes, etc.
 
Trigonometry and Geometry consist of fundamental laws and patterns that describe the way this universe happens to work.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Err, what
Hows is that arcane
 
Go out into the world and ask people about it.
 

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