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7:06 PM
@LucDanton posted it in cpp, fingers crossed for the scums and villains to like it
 
@Columbo I see no evidence to the contrary.
 
@Puppy Of course not, you moron. He was a composer.
 
knw that much
 
user1804599
> gay antidisestablishmentarianism
 
@Puppy No, but in all seriousness: Wtf?
 
7:11 PM
what precisely are you WTFing about?
 
@Puppy You calling Bach a retard, perhaps? That's about YT commentary level from a twelve-year old.
 
I merely stated that there was no evidence to the contrary.
 
@Puppy There is no evidence against you being a retard either.
 
also, there is a particular case of retard who shows ridiculous skill at some particular task.
I forget what they're called now.
 
@Puppy Autistic persons?
 
7:12 PM
no.
Bach could easily have been one of them even if you assume that his music was particularly great, which I haven't really observed.
 
@Puppy idiot savant
 
Yeah, savant!
That's what it was called.
 
user1804599
Lopado­temacho­selacho­galeo­kranio­leipsano­drim­hypo­trimmato­silphio­parao­melito­katakechy­meno­kichl­epi­kossypho­phatto­perister­alektryon­opte­kephallio­kigklo­peleio­lagoio­siraio­baphe­tragano­pterygon is a fictional dish mentioned in Aristophanes' comedy Assemblywomen. It is a transliteration of the Ancient Greek word λοπαδο­τεμαχο­σελαχο­γαλεο­κρανιο­λειψανο­δριμ­υπο­τριμματο­σιλφιο­καραβο­μελιτο­κατακεχυ­μενο­κιχλ­επι­κοσσυφο­φαττο­περιστερ­αλεκτρυον­οπτο­κεφαλλιο­κιγκλο­πελειο­λαγῳο­σιραιο­βαφη­τραγανο­πτερύγων. Liddell & Scott (LSJ) translate this as "name of a dish compounded of...
 
user1804599
lol
 
well I can safely state that I have never met Bach and can't really speak either way.
all I'm saying is that a) assuming that his music is great is effectively an appeal to authority, and b), even if it's great, he could be an idiot savant and therefore could still be a retard.
therefore there's no rational basis for concluding that he is not a retard just because you like his music.
 
7:14 PM
@Puppy "even if it's great" lmao
 
I didn't realize you had such a personal attachment to Bach.
 
And saying Bach might have been a Savant while there is basically tons of evidence against that is idiotic as well.
 
@Columbo Let's consider a few others, such as Einstein and Donald Knuth.
 
people discussing Bach's mental state is the last thing I expected to find here
 
7:16 PM
@JerryCoffin Einstein was not religious. That's an idiotic myth.
 
@StackedCrooked ch
 
This whole "discussion" is just another proof of how ignorant this bitch is.
 
@Puppy Bach was not an idiot savant
 
@Columbo Rather the contrary--he specifically stated that he did not believe in a "personal god", but did believe in a "pantheistic god".
 
@JerryCoffin Source?
 
7:18 PM
@StackedCrooked Never met him so I can't really say one way or the other. I'm merely pointing out that any perceived musical quality doesn't really qualify as evidence against.
 
I mean, he once stated that he was fascinated by the harmonic structure of the universe, IIRC.l
@Puppy Fortunately, thousands of people have met him, and wrote down what they saw.
 
@JerryCoffin Godel, too
(and he did believe in a personal god)
intelligence and religiousness are orthogonal things
 
I didn't know that they were highly skilled at spotting mental health issues in 1710.
 
@Columbo His autobiography. A quick glance shows at least a few quotes from it sprinkled around the net. For example: godandscience.org/apologetics/einstein.html
 
@AndyProwl Depends on the definition of religiousness.
 
7:21 PM
besides
 
@JerryCoffin Wtf? A site with the title "evidence for god" is immediately questionable in every respect, especially on where they got that interview from.
 
the number of people who met him and gave their opinion on his retardedness or not and the quality of their evidence is a markedly matter to simply stating that he was not a retard because he made subjectively appealing music.
 
@Columbo Godel was religious in the sense that he believed there is a God that sees you and stuff. He did suffer from mental issues like paranoia IIRC, but that's something else than "being an idiot".
 
@Columbo: I will remember that.
 
@wilx Why?
@AndyProwl That supports my original point.
 
7:23 PM
@Columbo The interview is cited as being from the Saturday Evening post. Don't get me wrong: I don't think "Einstein thought there was a god" qualifies as real evidence that there was/is (obvious appeal to authority). I did, however, read his autobiography years ago, and this does seem to accord reasonably well with what I remember of it.
 
@JerryCoffin Well, alright then. Another +1 for my point.
> No, Albert Einstein was not a Christian or even a theist (one who believes in a personal God), probably because he failed to understand why evil existed.
 
well
 
My god, this whole site is a fucking joke.
 
I had to increase the timeout for Wide tests to 1000 seconds.
 
@Columbo Yep
 
7:25 PM
debug parsing with Clang is so slow.
 
It hell is
I have to run my unit tests in release if I want them to be reasonably fast
 
what project do you have built on Clang?
 
I'm working on a tool that parses some class definitions and generates some sort of proxy/stub files, it's a thing for work
My first impact with the API has been quite traumatic
 
heh
 
Ownership is particularly bad
 
7:30 PM
yep.
also their approach to error-handling and side effects is pretty awful too.
 
The idea of compiler as a service and modular design and stuff is awesome but the implementation is hell, at least from a user's perspective
A non-expert user like me in particular
 
part of it is C++ requiring the mixing of all the compiler phases.
but the other part of it is Clang being full of horrible side effects and shit.
 
Also there's no real documentation
 
yep.
 
Tutorials are mostly outdated or they don't explain the things I need
 
7:32 PM
you can of course refer to the Wide source if you want
 
I was thinking about it yes
 
@AndyProwl Why would you base that on Clang? Using Clang for parsing an IDL is like killing a fly with a nuclear weapon.
 
@JerryCoffin The IDL is clearly C++.
 
@JerryCoffin It's not an IDL, it's a C++ header which contains an interface definition, and that interface can use shared_ptrs, unique_ptrs, references to other such interfaces, etc.
 
the header should include all the other headers it needs, so if you just give Clang the right include paths, it'll handle that stuff
 
7:34 PM
The proxy/stub infrastructure I'm writing actually generates an IDL file which is MIDLed and classes that handle the C++ <-> COM translation
 
user1804599
C++ isn't nearly half as bad as LiveScript is syntax-wise.
 
@AndyProwl Sounding like a worse idea all the time.
 
@JerryCoffin lol, ok. It could be. Personally I think it's a good idea
 
user1804599
x =
    * 1
    * 2
// x is an array of two elements 1 and 2
f = ->
    * 1
    * 2
// f is a function that returns 2
 
It lets you use a C++ object as if it was a local object, but the object actually lives in a different process - with some restrictions on the interface, of course
 
user1804599
7:35 PM
This is just beautiful.
 
@AndyProwl Maybe I'm being too harsh--assuming you can get it to work, it's probably extremely useful, especially if you have a large existing base of code you'd like to distribute.
 
@JerryCoffin Honesty is always appreciated, especially if it is supported by experience and evidence. I don't mind that sort of harshness so feel free to bring forward your objections. They'll be valuable to me
 
There Z No Definition 4 Agud Day Or Bad Day....It All Dependz On U & Ur Thoughtz Dat, Either U Rule De Day Or De Day Rule U..,nyc Tym 2 Alk Ov U.
 
ATM it works quite well for the use cases I have. It is not the best solution performance-wise, because making multithreading over COM interfaces transparent to the user is tricky and requires marshalling/unmarshalling from the GIT every time a pointer is needed, but it does seem to work
So far I've been writing all the proxy/stubs manually, but it's a completely mechanical process so I thought I'd use Clang to generate them automatically
 
@Blob WTF? English, please!
 
7:39 PM
@AndyProwl GIT?
 
@wilx random facebook post i just saw
 
@AndyProwl Well, basically two things occur to me right off. One is that C++ is a pain to parse, so it's just a lot of extra work. The other is C++ doesn't include enough information to really define an interface well--you'd have to look at quite a bit of surrounding code to figure out things like: "when Foo is passed by reference, we really only need to send members X, Y, and Z, but we have to return A, B, C and X."
 
it's probably a troll acc
 
@Puppy Global Interface Table, a COM thing
 
@JerryCoffin That depends on what the output interface needs to be like, because you could just translate "Pass Foo by reference" to "Pass Foo by pointer"
 
7:41 PM
@JerryCoffin Well, yes, I'm defining a few restrictions that narrow down the scope a lot and make the problem relatively easy to tackle
 
there's this dude calling himself Bobo Alam Mbire from Uganda that's an admin in my school's facebook "Confessions" group. He wants to be president by taking down current authorities. That post is from one of his friends.
 
So in fact it's not a general solution. But it's general enough for our use cases at work
 
@Puppy Not for distributed work, you can't--you need to serialize the pointee, the deserialize it on the other end.
 
I don't know if his outcome is distributed.
 
@Puppy Even on the same machine, an out-of-process COM server requires roughly the same.
 
7:43 PM
presumably you could also just serialize and de-serialize the whole object.
or perhaps simply use a proxy.
depends on the types involved I guess.
 
I cannot write too many details because it's work stuff, but basically I have a "server" process where certain objects live, and several other "client" processes access the objects in the server. Instead of using COM interfaces, I want them to be able to use regular C++ interfaces, with unique pointers, shared pointers, references, boost signals for event notifications, etc., and the mapping is done transparently by the infrastructure provided those interfaces comply with certain limitations
 
@Puppy You could, but it gets non-trivial as soon as the type contains a pointer. You need something to tell it what pointers to chase and what pointers not to. I've probably pointed it out before, but if you chase all the pointers, you've just created half of a garbage collector.
 
@AndyProwl What's not clear to me is why using COM is necessary. If you control both sides you could just boost::interprocess or something like that.
 
@AndyProwl Fair enough--and certainly getting (as far as possible) away from raw use of COM is a fine idea.
 
but I assume that you have a solid motivation for it that you can't discuss.
 
7:46 PM
@Puppy Using COM is required by our infrastructure/policy/whatever - we use that at work
 
@AndyProwl Out of curiosity, do you do Windows only COM or do you have COM support on other OSes as well?
 
@wilx We work on Windows only
 
@JerryCoffin Well I guess that if your source and target are both C++, you could say you only support some subset and then you only need to handle your own cases.
@AndyProwl Sounds to me like you're basically just dodging your work's bad policy.
 
@Puppy Pretty much
 
fair enough.
 
7:48 PM
@Puppy Right--and it sounds like that's pretty much what he's doing.
 
I'm still not used to my workplace not having such a bad policy.
 
Anyway all of this could be done manually and I've done it manually before, but I wanted to get to learn Clang anyway so I used this work thing as an excuse to become acquainted with the API
 
bet you wish you hadn't :P
 
lol, kind of. I imagined it much nicer to work with
 
yep
 
7:50 PM
@rightfold ClearCase sucks ass
 
well the only advice I can really offer you is to take a look at Wide's source and ask me when you run into a problem, since I may well have encountered it myself.
 
@thecoshman So much
 
user1804599
that condition
 
@AndyProwl you've suffered it too?
 
7:51 PM
@Puppy Will do that, thank you
@thecoshman Yes. Fortunately we moved away from it
 
and be careful about the ownership :P
 
Well, we're now using RTC which isn't all that different, but better than CC
About a month ago the SCM people sent over an email saying that we're going to migrate all of our codebase to Git. I was like super-happy, but it turned out it was some April's fool bullshit
15
So cruel
 
What would you name a structure that contains a bunch of data to render something incl mesh/geometry, shaders etc. Other than "RenderData" ofc
 
@Prismatic MeshGeometryShaderRenderData
 
RenderingShitData
 
7:54 PM
@Prismatic Renderable
 
hmm, I have a bad feeling that I'm missing something I need from my grocery order
but I don't know what it is.
 
@Scarlet ok, thanks for the tip to skip Bratislava. We're going to the Baltics.
 
Potatoes
 
Milk, bread, nutella. Have all of them?
 
> grocery
 
7:55 PM
milk.
I don't require bread or nutella.
 
You are bread
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes never been there but I'm sure it's nicer :) there isn't really all that much to se e in Bratislava :-\ enjoy your trip :)
 
@Prismatic Eintopf.
 
perhaps I should purchase a frozen pizza.
 
renderable sounds p hot
 
8:01 PM
no, it sounds like an interface.
possibly a bad one.
 
@Puppy I wouldn't trust them to pick out the crappy items :\ or give terrible substitutions
 
@AndyProwl lol, so true. :)
 
Xeo
whoo, new desk is "up and running"
 
Should I use this as my nick name here? vh (  ̄┏_┓ ̄)
 
hi
 
8:16 PM
@thecoshman Never been a problem for me.
 
Xeo
man, using a proper desk feels nice. although I'll miss my "impromptu" desk.
 
@FilipRoséen-refp I'm both excited and horrified. Good job.
 
@chris well, stay tuned for the real horror/excitements in the upcoming posts - you've seen nothing yet
 
@FilipRoséen-refp Oh I can imagine
 
@chris thanks by the way!
 
8:20 PM
I would spend a ton of time experimenting, but I've been busier lately
 
@Xeo nice. proper desk sure does help
 
Xeo
ye. especially since I got space for 3 monitors on this one
gotta tweak he hight a bit yet, I think
 
@FilipRoséen-refp Now that reminds me of this.
 
> A constexpr function can be in either one of two states; either it is usable in a constant-expression, or it isn't - if it lacks a definition it automatically falls in the latter category - there is no other state (unless we consider undefined behavior).
 
@chris hehe, that's a cute little hack
@milleniumbug sarcasm or not sarcasm? I'm bad at this Internet thingie
 
8:31 PM
But now we have a working replacement for __COUNTER__ (although I still doubt it's possible in the general case)
 
@chris I've already implemented that, and the meta-type container, I just need to write the posts about them, or well.. everything stated as "what if" in the article has already been implemented
just gonna polish it up somewhat so that people can actually read it, currently it's a bit hackish (and every variable is named poorly)
 
@FilipRoséen-refp No, my mind was blown. Seriously. This is so much language abuse I don't even. You should be given an award for that.
 
This is like when I found out how Boost.PP does nested loops
 
@milleniumbug haha, well I'm happy to blow some minds!
 
it's well-done to shown that C++ isn't sufficiently pure.
 
8:41 PM
With the auto recognition of nesting level
 
no zings available for such a terrible joke.
 
Actually, come to think of it, this method is pretty similar to that preprocessor method
 
user1804599
LiveScript is awesome:
 
user1804599
ls> ^^[]{}@@=>->|..=><[]>+~>%"#@".>>.&*$~_?\\`°
{}
 
@rightfold Did someone decide Perl was too easy to read?
10
 
Xeo
8:57 PM
@FilipRoséen-refp Well done. I was going the same direction a long long time ago (before noexcept and constexpr were properly or at all implemented anywhere), and kept running into problems with friend functions being instantiated during inspection.
 
9:12 PM
TIL there's gonna be a semi-major CS GO event in my city this autumn :O mygarage.ro/attachments/gaming/…
I'm gonna go there and buy all the shit I can find
and get some autographs hopefully because why not
 
user1804599
Everyone on IRC is linking to your article @FilipRoséen-refp.
 
Why do all the Indian/Middle Eastern-sounding usernames write bad answers?
 
@sehe how did you get everything typed backwards? — ahorn 1 hour ago
Unicode still entertaining
@rightfold Oh. For a moment I thought you meant about language features across languages
 
@sehe wth
can you rewrite the web with unicode or sth
 
user1804599
9:26 PM
No *stream << offset << '\t' << and << "\n" appear all over the place.
 
user1804599
free tomorrow \o/
 
user1804599
King's day is absolutely ridiculous but I'm fine with it.
 
@sehe how did you make that backwards 'b'?
 
user1804599
d
 
user1804599
> If you have a pizza with radius "z" and thickness "a", its volume is pizza.
 
user1804599
9:31 PM
:(
 
I'm hungry but I need to keep myself away from food
 
user1804599
Eat pizza.
 
I can't
 
user1804599
With radius z and thickness a.
 
@rightfold Does look like a good candidate for retrieving the data you're going to print out from a unordered_map.
 
Xeo
9:32 PM
@rightfold national holiday on Friday here
 
user1804599
Speaking of which, time to get pie.
 
Xeo
And it's called "Day of Work" to boot.
Love it.
 
Man. It's tough to get to Riga.
 
Xeo
"Labour Day" is the proper word, I guess
@R.MartinhoFernandes Planning your world tour again?
 
Flights expensive, trains take longer than to the Arctic.
 
user1804599
9:33 PM
We also have labour day.
 
user1804599
But I don't know why and when.
 
@Xeo nah, just a spontaneous five day trip.
 
Xeo
I see
 
So we're hitchhiking to Amsterdam in the end.
It will be fun.
 
Xeo
Would be sad if it wasn't
 
9:34 PM
@Xeo It originated in the US, so it should really be spelled as "labor day", even in the UK.
 
funny, because the labor day is a day that a paid laborer normally would stop laboring
 
Lo
 
@AlexM. Haganai is a pretty decent anime :)
 
@rightfold hehe
@LucDanton it's on my keydoarb
 
9:58 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Will you be taking pictures?
 
Ven
@FilipRoséen-refp your article was good :). Though I didn't get the "Generation of class template specialization" part
 
hmm
just noticed that the BBC iPlayer's volume slider goes up to 11.
 
Xeo
@sehe Fancy special keyboards, pfff
 
user1804599
 
user1804599
top kek
 
10:16 PM
@Borgleader yep, this time I'll make sure to bring the camera and a proper lens.
 
@Ven do you have any specific question regarding it? maybe I can clearify the contents
 
Ven
@FilipRoséen-refp I actually got it now, but couldn't edit the message anymore :-)
 
@Xeo yeah, so did I back in the days - and then it just hit me about a week ago
 
Ven
@FilipRoséen-refp my mistake was missing the missing "::type" in main in said paragraph
 
@rightfold nice to hear, I'm really excited about it! :)
 
user1804599
10:18 PM
Somebody linked it in haskell-blah.
 
user1804599
@Ven linked it to me twice.
 
Ven
I'm ... still a bit confused, but I think I grasped the ideas behind it. was a fun read :D
 
user1804599
Some other guy posted it in another room as well.
 
what article?
 
Ven
@rightfold I linked it first just to show you, then to ask you something about it
 
10:18 PM
meh, never mind. i won't understand it anyways
 
user1804599
not again :(
 
I'm glad it getting the attention which it is.. getting
but I'm not sure whether I should feel good about the fact that C++ is currently split into two camps.. those who love the language because this mad hack is possible, and those who hate it because this mad hack is possible
time to hit the sack though, girlfriend is waiting
peace out folks!
 
@FilipRoséen-refp hey
waht article?
 
user1804599
@FilipRoséen-refp watch out that she isn't going to hit the sack.
 
user1804599
10:23 PM
That would hurt!
 
Xeo
@FilipRoséen-refp cue standard PR because this is actually unintentional behaviour
(well, it's obviously unintentional. more like "unwanted")
 
user1804599
no, it was intentional
 
user1804599
there's some troll in the committee who introduces all this crap fur teh lulz
 
user1804599
likely Herb
 
@Xeo Just my thought.
So this is gonna be subject of some core issue fairly soon, I reckon.
And then it's gonna sink into the realms of stuff that was cool in that time frame in which it appeared to be well-defined
 
user1804599
10:29 PM
 
@rightfold ...
"parents"
 
user1804599
@Jefffrey I love you!!!
 
@rightfold What's the article?
 
lol
 
yo lounge. If I find myself using std::list only because I want stable references to the elements, is that 'wrong'? I'd be using a vector if it didn't scramble iterators/refs when it was modified.
 
10:33 PM
No, it's not wrong.
 
It seems like from most things I read that list tends to be so slow its only really good for large sequences that you want to insert and remove data from
 
no.
 
@Prismatic Traversing a list is slow, so they tend to be at their best dealing with a small number of large objects.
 
Feb 6 at 21:14, by рытфолд
I love myself too.
 
user1804599
:3
 
10:37 PM
there's like a site where they list all of the inmates who were killed in some texas prison's last words
 
@Prismatic I think there's a talk that explains that std::vector is actually faster than other containers when it comes to things that should be faster on those containers. But if you want stable references to elements, then it's absolutely fine to use std::list.
 
and a site where they list all of the transcripts before plane crashes
 
Yeah, it was a Bjarne talk that showed even resizing somewhat large vectors and have the memory move around and all was still faster than a list
 
The talk was basically "caches are good, much more awesome than you think"
@rightfold Have you tried ECS?
 
@Prismatic Depending on the situation, there are some alternatives. One is an std::unordered_map<size_t, T>. Another is a vector, but with the stable_iterator I posted yesterday (basically, an iterator that keeps a pointer to the object along with an index, so dereferencing it accesses the element by index, which stays valid in the presence of insertion or deletion, as long as you haven't deleted so much that the index is no longer valid.
 
10:39 PM
Yeah, his talk and mike acton's talks and the whole data oriented design thing is stuck in my brain now and it bothers me any time I try to do something that I want to be fast
 
user1804599
What is ECS?
 
Entity component system
 
user1804599
No, and I am not interested in it at all.
 
@JerryCoffin I looked over that code but your index isn't valid when something is removed from the vector
Or rather, its valid but its no longer pointing to the same element
Yo I feel like a lot of people are implementing some kinda ECS
 
@Prismatic Right. Like I said, depends on the situation.
 
10:41 PM
we should all team up and make the best ECS ever
 
If you need to it to still point at the same element, I've found std::unordered_set<size_t, T> faster than list in at least some cases (but YMMV).
 
@JerryCoffin thats interesting... i'll try that out
 
@Prismatic In particular, unlike list, it supports (approximately) O(1) random access.
 
Ven
@FilipRoséen-refp I only learned c++ for this kind of stuff.
 
Also wrt all this talk about cache-friendly containers... thinking about how to lay out your data so it works out this way is tough. It seems like its only really good for PODs that have a fixed size
oh man im eating a toasted coconut tart with strawberry filling
so gud
 
10:50 PM
@Rapptz you've wanted to write a dynamic_array in the past, right?
 
no
That's just std::vector.
 
not quite
One uses dynamic allocation
the other does not
 
that's called static_vector.
I already wrote one.
 
ah
@Rapptz I've now got something similar - stack allocators. The only thing it can't do compared to static_vector is pass them around as values (unless you keep the arena alive)
 
Howard has a stack allocator.
 
10:52 PM
it's similar
mine's based on his
bit more feature rich
mine has a simple freelist
and the size of the arena does not leak into the allocator type
 
user1804599
&& and || in Nok will allow both functions and Booleans to be passed.
 
user1804599
When passed functions, they will short-circuit.
 
why not arbitrary expressions?
and short-circuit entire expressions?
 
user1804599
So && f! g! calls both f and g whereas && f! {g!} only calls g if f returns true.
 
user1804599
@orlp Because && and || are just normal functions.
 
10:58 PM
HI
my walk went well
/cc @Cinch
 
user1804599
s/walk/wank/
 
s/wank/spank/
 
user1804599
Sleep, bye!
 
rightfold is kill
'no'
 

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