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6:04 PM
So I am high, then.
Awesome.
 
> Could you perhaps do it instead of me? Unfortunately, explaining how terrible C++ is cannot be made into a career the way explaining how wonderful C++ is can be.
 
> So maybe you'll do better than me. If you do, you might contribute to the sanity of many a young idealistic programmer – these tend to get sucked into C++'s sphere of influence, either emerging old and embittered years later or lost to sanity forever, stuck in an internally consistent but absolutely crazy way of thinking.
 
Well, now most of the almost valid points of FQA are no longer true, explaining how terrible C++ is sure got harder...
> Imagine someone mocking C++ for two char pointers comparing "wrong" with ==. Immediately they'd be told that casting to std::string (more verbose than ===) would work just fine, and that "you just don't get it".
AHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
 
> Just like I don't give a damn about people with so much time on their hands to actually have thousands of karma points at StackOverflow explaining just how lame C++ FQA is.
Hahahaha
 
6:12 PM
I mean
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHHAAAA
> Why is PHP – a language full of quirks which at least gives you memory and type safety – is universally ridiculed and the developers, while defending the language, never ridicule back, while C++, an absolutely insane language, is ridiculed often enough but C++ developers always counter-attack viciously? For that matter, why isn't Lisp ridiculed for EQ, EQL, EQUAL and EQUALP, if comparison operators are so funny?
> In this sense, C++ is fine and a worthy achievement of a lifetime. Especially in a world where Putin is a candidate for a Nobel Peace prize and Obama already got one.
 
> at least gives you memory and type safety
 
Yes.
That's the part I bolded.
 
nice, how many things I can miss by reading things just once
I should read things like multi-pass compilers do.
 
@Griwes And yet he's become much better known and probably made more of a career out of exactly that than the vast majority of people who've acted as cheerleaders (even though many of the latter clearly knew more and were more honest than he is).
 
@JerryCoffin Yeah.
 
6:21 PM
> X& obj=a.b().c()
 
Bashing things is always easy and gets you famous.
 
if a.b().c() returns a temporary object then there's no problem, right?
 
Mostly because people having no fucking clue about the thing being bashed are SO GLAD to hate that thing because they believe everything someone said on the internet.
 
Average reader:
 
@Griwes Not really :v
 
6:23 PM
C++ is hard because it solves a hard problem so I don't understand it => Let's like and love and article bashing it because screw those people <3 php
 
@CatPlusPlus Yes really.
 
@Jefffrey b() makes a temporary and c() returns *this.
 
Tools are still horribly broken, the language is still a clusterfuck
The most terrible things about it (like the fucking complexity of the grammar and semantics) only got worse, and quality of life improvements don't offset them nearly enough
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes So a.b().c() returns an X&, correct?
 
So no, I have no problem mocking C++ all day still
 
6:25 PM
oh wait
I get it
 
And yet all the other practical languages are far worse in almost all regards, usually.
 
@Jefffrey Except that you can't bind lvalue ref to rvalue.
 
@Griwes No, it's true. To retain backward compatibility, nearly all the same crap that was ever true remains so today. The problem with the FQA is that in most cases they didn't matter, because nobody ever encountered them except by looking (hard) to find them. All that's changed is that their relevance has shrunk still further.
 
@CatPlusPlus I think we all think C++ is a clusterfuck, that article is still a funny piece of shit though.
 
@Puppy But if a.b().c() is an lvalue reference (because c() returns (*this)) then we have al lvalue ref binding to an lvalue.
 
user3010322
6:27 PM
C compatibility is the only reason C++ survived.
 
C++ is like AMD64.
 
@Jefffrey Yep.
 
user3010322
And with it, all the same problems came too.
 
@Puppy Which is legal, no?
> Just like I don't give a damn about people with so much time on their hands to actually have thousands of karma points at StackOverflow explaining just how lame C++ FQA is.
 
perfectly.
 
6:28 PM
and well-formed?
 
user3010322
Perfectly well-formed.
 
that's what "legal" means.
 
user3010322
That can and should and will compile, without warning.
 
user3010322
(Bar compiler inspection.)
 
c() itself should, anyway.
but the use of it should warn if you have a smart compiler.
 
6:28 PM
guys
this is fun
If the OP is intending to solve a problem, why would they not look into a way of saving time and processor cycles. That code WILL generate loops, conditionals, and control statements. Please remember that the CPU cannot just assume you want to stop when said register reaches zero. Please stop acting like a Java programmer and begin acting like a well informed, well educated, and respectable engineer. — phyrrus9 2 mins ago
 
user3010322
Guise
 
user3010322
How do you mark a Lambda in C# as... aync?
 
"Please stop acting like a Java programmer and begin acting like a well informed, well educated, and respectable engineer." :V:V
 
@ThePhD async () => ...
 
I've never come in contact with Java. Apparently this is a perk?
 
user3010322
6:29 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum Ooh, I need the () there?
 
user3010322
Well, that explains everything then.
 
@ThePhD I think so.
 
@Jefffrey No Hypocrisy there. "When I waste hundreds of hours explaining how lame I think X is, it's completely justified and generally wonderful. When anybody else does the same, it's horrible, wasted, and stupid."
 
@Jefffrey Java has virtues. It's a horrible language but it does some things right.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Please do name them.
 
Ell
6:31 PM
@Griwes you can have variables n that
 
@Griwes You know Java?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Irrelevant; please do name things Java does right.
 
Ell
You can make lists
and do if statements and things
it's a functioning programming language
 
@Griwes it does everything right, it's the best language
 
@Griwes Spoken like a true fanboy, good job
 
6:32 PM
attack!
 
Java is very good at getters and setters.
2
 
@CatPlusPlus Name one practically useful and used language that is better.
 
Little story: I've recently tried to explain boost::any to a friend of mine. He nodded the whole time and when I finished he said: "So... pretty much like auto, right?".
 
:D
 
@Jefffrey Welcome to me from today.
 
6:33 PM
@Griwes Well, for one thing I like how enums are real types that can have methods. I like how you can implement anonymous classes for interfaces and still get type safety without having to implement a concrete type. I like the tooling - the editors and analysis tools for Java are of very high quality. I like <?> in the generic type system. To name a few.
 
Ell
@Jefffrey aww bless him
 
@Griwes Python, C#, Java, Haskell, Go
 
user3010322
I'd take Python, C#, and Haskell from that list.
 
And a lot more I don't really think about too often so I don't remember them
 
user3010322
Java, I'd rather just use C# to be honest, since it gives me value types and Java doesn't.
 
Ell
6:34 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum I like the enum thing
 
Haskell is like a Jolly card, in the "what's a better language for <x>" game.
 
Scala
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Tooling is not part of the language. Enums - point kind of taken. I'd have to look <?> up, I forgot how it worked.
 
Ell
Scala is much better than java imho
 
Python.
@Griwes All of Java's generics is just totally broken.
 
6:34 PM
Language without tooling is nothing
 
If we put tooling aside then Haskell with extensions is very high up there :v
 
Ell
meh lack of static typing sucks imho
 
@CatPlusPlus Python is better than C++? C# is better than C++? Java is better than C++? Haskell is bett--. Go is better than C++?
 
@Griwes For example ArrayList<?> means "I have an ArrayList but I don't care what's the type of what's in it, I just care that it has something - I can for instance get its count."
 
@Griwes Yes
They're all simpler, they're all have better tooling (yes even Go)
 
6:35 PM
I think if C++ did not have enums someone would have come up with "the enumerator idiom" and it would have been better than enum.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum nice
 
@CatPlusPlus Your view on the world is broken beyond repair.
 
They're just good at different things. C++ does some things very well and in some contexts it's hard to replace it.
 
@Griwes :laffo:
 
lol
 
6:35 PM
I tend to agree about Python and Haskell being funnier to work with than C++.
 
@CatPlusPlus Who cares about tooling? I asked about languages, not about tooling.
 
Because tooling is fucking essential
 
user3010322
I wish enums in C++ could have methods.
 
user3010322
I'd wanted that for years.
 
6:35 PM
@CatPlusPlus I still only asked about languages themselves.
 
I wish that for C++
 
user3010322
Because there's lots of functions I just want to work on enums.
 
@Griwes Aren't you one of those that dislikes "academia" and stuff?
 
@ThePhD Methods are overrated.
 
You can't evaluate a language without tooling, because tooling is what implements the language
 
6:36 PM
Hope I'm not misremembering.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Sure I am.
 
@ThePhD Swift enums are actually very powerful in theory. You can have an enum Either<T,U> for instance.
 
And if you disregard implementations
 
@Griwes I find it quite funny then.
 
@CatPlusPlus Yeah, you need at least an interpreter!
 
6:36 PM
Then C++ loses with absolutely everything save for borderline shit like PHP or Perl
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I still am only asking the languages, though.
@CatPlusPlus lol
 
Tooling and ecosystem are really important aspects for developing in a language.
 
Right.
Like an academic would.
 
The grammar is unimplementable clusterfuck
 
@Griwes This does point to something Sun did very well though: the definition basically guarantees that you'll have a Java compiler as part of every JVM, so anybody who wants to write code that examines or manipulates Java code has quite a few tools available to do that (and do it well) as part of the base language definition.
 
6:37 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum Yes, of developing in it. I am still only asking about the language itself.
 
The semantics have so many corner cases you could hide elephants in them
 
@Cat So basically your only real argument is "the tooling is worse".
 
UB proliferation makes reasoning about the code extremely hard
 
Nice.
 
No, you fucking fanboi
 
6:37 PM
@Griwes argument for what?
 
There are many non-political reasons C++ tools are terrible.
 
If you want to discuss language design then C++ has no redeeming qualities whatsoever
 
lol
 
well, I disagree with that.
 
Ell
@CatPlusPlus what about raii? o.O
 
6:38 PM
C++ sucks for writing music programs. You can have identifiers named after notes (do, re, mi..) because do a keyword.
 
Maybe except for RAII
 
@CatPlusPlus Funny story, the Concepts-lite paper still mentions ‘template introductions’, e.g. Regular{Element} struct vector { ….
 
I'd take C# over C++ for anything that isn't extremely memory constrained. If I have more than 2x the memory I need I'd choose C#.
 
@Griwes He is telling you about the language itself. "The semantics have so many corner cases you could hide elephants in them", "UB proliferation makes reasoning about the code extremely hard", etc...
 
user3010322
Macros ruin code inspection.
 
6:38 PM
there's no question that C++ is fucked up in many ways.
but it has some advantages.
 
user3010322
So hard.
 
@StackedCrooked c, d, e, f, g, a, b.
 
Ell
RAII is definitely awesome
 
user3010322
Reasoning about those is the nightmare of my life.
 
Am I agreeing with Puppy and disagreeing with almost everybody else?
 
6:39 PM
RAII is great, but other languages do RAII
 
Value semantics are debatable, but there's so so so so many wrong things about the language
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes c, d, e, f, g, a, h.
 
D does RAII.
 
Ell
I love value semantics too
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum It doesn't.
It allows it.
 
6:39 PM
@CatPlusPlus value semantics is awesome, value semantics in C++ otoh..
 
@Griwes Your screen is dirty. That is an h.
 
@Griwes :lol:
 
But it doesn't enforce it - you have to explicitly enable it on a per variable basis.
 
@Griwes meh, that's like saying C++ "allows" it.
 
@Griwes Yes, and he has been right already once this year. Ain't going to happen again.
:)
 
6:39 PM
C++ doesn't ~~~enforce~~~ it either
 
@Griwes That's like saying C++ doesn't do templates. It allows them.
2
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum No, C++ is enforcing it.
 
No it isn't
 
Yes it is
 
how? :v
 
6:40 PM
@Griwes no it doesn't, it's an idiom.
 
You have to write types to use it
 
Ell
@Griwes you don't have to write a destructor that closes a file
 
You can write code that doesn't utilize RAII quite easily.
 
And you have to use automatic variables explicitly
 
Ell
6:40 PM
you might just have a .close() method
 
it doesn't exactly enforce it, but it certainly automatically enables it.
 
I like defer in Go, I'm sure I'm outnumbered in that opinion though.
 
Ell
whereas D allows it
 
/me gives up and goes back to writing practical code
 
having to explicitly scope every variable would be hideously unpleasant and a long way from actual RAII.
 
user3010322
6:40 PM
struct Enforcer {
     char* meow;
     Enforcer () : meow(new char[80000]) {}
}; // ENFORCED
 
Ahahahahhaha
Fucking programmers.txt
 
(Which implies I am not going to write Haskell anytime soon.)
 
Oh, now it's "practical".
 
:lol:
 
"I WANT TO DISCUSS PRACTICAL THINGS" "BUT NOT TOOLING" "BUT NOT DESIGN EITHER"
 
6:41 PM
I'm liking Haskell more and more and hating it more and more as time goes on.
 
A few minutes ago you were pleading to ignore the practical aspects of C++.
 
"BUIT C++ IS THE BESTESTSST"
 
no need for the all caps, cat.
 
Sometimes I feel that meaningful type inference is still a decade ahead.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes lol nope read again
 
6:42 PM
Ok, maybe 7 minutes is not "a few".
You're right.
 
@Griwes yeah "practical". Now that you've mentioned that: how many years does it take to train a new developer to be proficient at C++ and a C++ framework you have at your current project? Divide that by 10 for other languages :| If C++ is not absolutely necessary because of some of it advantages every company doing software will use other language
 
Ell
I'm going to leave because it's not fun when everyone argues
 
This isn't arguing this is calling a fanboy out
 
A public service if you will
 
6:43 PM
@Ell Heh - it's a wonder you ever got here then:
 
Who's arguing this time?
 
did you feed Bailey.
 
@Puppy Yup - good job he likes popcorn:)
 
lol
 
You know what's practical?
The zombie disposal system I'm building.
 
6:44 PM
@Puppy Why do you always remind him? Did he forget sometimes?
 
But arguments about language design are not ~~~real~~~
But I want to discuss language only
 
Ell
okay okay okay we get it
I came back :(
 
@CatPlusPlus In here, they're double
 
Cat got agitated :D
 
@Jefffrey A couple times.
I used to say that I was going to feed Daisy, and he was like, "Ohfuckshitballs"
 
6:45 PM
@BartoszKP Wait till he reaches the spin cycle...
 
hmm I need to eat
but I've taken my oven apart
oops
 
lol
 
@Puppy He fed shitballs to Bailey?
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit sounds like a night on the pub
 
6:46 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yes. He took a shit right in Bailey's bowl.
 
Wait
 
@MartinJames hope I'll leave by then ;)
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Hmm.. not something I do regularly, (or ever, for that matter).
 
Bailey... like in Bailey's? The liquor?
 
Yes, it's code.
 
6:47 PM
@Griwes Anything ML enough probably has more niceties than C++, too. No reason to leave at just Haskell.
 
@MartinJames You alcoholic!
 
omg , this stupid shit miktex doesn't install packages again :|
 
@Jefffrey No, his mutt.
 
I have occasionally forgot to feed my dog when in the zone.
 
he's a terrible abusive owner who forgets to feed his dog.
and I pretty much always remember because Daisy barks at my door if I don't.
 
6:48 PM
@Puppy I blame the linker.
 
@BartoszKP about three weeks - to teach enough C++ to be effective to someone who has not written C++, but knows how to code.
IMO.
 
@MartinJames well I really mean it's soaking in supercleaner and all the trays are in a sealed bag soaking in supercleaner
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum :lol:
 
half the purpose of my fortnight off work is to catch up with a year of backlogged house chores -.-
 
Julia is nice (it doesn’t advertise itself as general-purpose but there’s nothing that prevents it). There’s the whole universe of Lisp-derived or Lisp-inspired if we go into that direction really.
 
6:49 PM
where's that "learn C++ in 21 days" pic?
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Hmm.. I think I'll stick with a dirty oven.
 
at this juncture part of me wants to say it's a shame my ex-fiancée left because then I'd have someone to help with this shit while I hold down a full-time job and Lounge membership ..... but she was more lazy than me
 
@Jefffrey you don't think you could teach C++ to a Python programmer (or even easier, someone who uses a static language like C#) in 21 days?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum No if you have a real "enterprise" class business project. It takes months, or even years to have some benefit from a new developer in C++. edit: "new" as in "new to C++", not proficient C++ developer new to the project
 
I keep wanting to do something in Racket
 
6:50 PM
@MartinJames I think the moment I realised I had to get on with it was when I took the roast-in-the-bag chicken out of the oven and the bottom of the bag was all greasy and shit
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum No, because I've yet to learn it myself. And it's been almost a year now.
 
@Jefffrey I'm not talking about quirks, I'm talking about being effective in the language.
 
Fixating on C++-the-language is probably very unhealthy. There’s more out there.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum C++ is really complex thing, one month is well not enough
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit You only need to clean the trays/grilles.
 
user3010322
6:51 PM
Can you mark a System.Func<T> as async?
 
user3010322
... Wait, it just needs to be a Task.
 
@CatPlusPlus again, not talking about mastering every little aspect here.
@ThePhD why?
 
user3010322
Pattern based compiler, yay! \o/
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Of course not.
 
user3010322
@BenjaminGruenbaum Nah, ignore me. :D
 
6:51 PM
Not mastering, but you have to be aware of a lot of those little aspects to write correct and idiomatic code
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum If by being effective in C++ you mean lower the chances of a terrible bug being included in the project, then yes. Few weeks is not enough.
 
@MartinJames You haven't seen it
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Oh.. that bad.
 
It's too easy to trip and compiler won't help you
 
The inside of the door smokes after ten minutes at 200º
 
6:52 PM
@ThePhD yeah, async is just sugar. All you care about is that a function returns a task, and not a direct value - that allows all the "monad fun" like chaining tasks, awaiting tasks (do notation) etc. It's an abstraction over 'doing stuff'.
 
If you have a student on his first job writing C++ you will pay for his UBs and other mistakes for years (if you are lucky enough to discover them)
 
@LucDanton At this point I'm not sure whether lisp is still the uncrowned king of programming languages. I believe that recent FP languages are starting to show you can do better (be more expressive while being less rigid/cryptic syntax wise). I'm particularly thinking of F# and Haskell here
 
I saw many examples, and I was one of them ;)
 
user3010322
@BartoszKP Hey, I wrote my C++ code at a company and it was great. :c
 
Also fresh C++ projects and few and far between, and beginners will probably be put on some maintenance duty
 
6:53 PM
@Jefffrey @Cat , name two things an effective new C++ developer needs to know that isn't covered by an introductory book like "The C++ Progamming Language" or something similar.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Open the window, turn up the oven as high as it will go, wait an hour.
 
personally I'd like to think that will probably not be true if that first job writing C++ is mine
 
@MartinJames Yeah burn it on good move
 
I'm not talking about leading a huge project. Just working on C++ projects.
 
6:53 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum Never read that book, so I don't know what's there and not there.
 
If that worked then it would have been fine post-Sunday-roast
;p
 
@sehe I did not mention Lisp itself as such though.
 
@ThePhD you must be exceptionally smart then ;)
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Carbon does not smoke.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Think of it as learning how to ride a bike. Yes, you may be on the wheels in a minute or two. But that doesn't nearly make you qualified to enter city traffic
 
6:54 PM
Most books I've seen teach absolute garbage
 
@MartinJames Well, whatever's going on, it needs cleaning
then I can get a cleaner in weekly and not be embarassed on the first visit
 
user3010322
@BartoszKP The lounge had already torn me up by the time I entered my first C++ internship. :D
 
Also I haven’t kept up with F# but it never struck me as innovative—bar the comprehension thingy perhaps.
 
@Jefffrey it's basically a giant "FOR THE LOVE OF GOD THIS IS NOT JAVA", goes on and on about using values whenever possible, using references properly - when to use templates and when to run, how important RAII is etc.
 
Ell
I've read code complete 2 which was nice
and C++ primer something^th edition
 
6:54 PM
@sehe Damnit, you are good at analogies.
 
@ThePhD good idea for new workers at my company ;D
 
Oh ffs, can't build 40-tile long bridges.
 
@LucDanton There's the many lisp deriveds, but I wouldn't count the most interesting modern FP languages lisp-derived
 
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes Is it a bridge over your tears?
 
@sehe I'm not saying do the Tour De France, I'm just saying work as a programmer. Most C++ courses and books I've seen are absolutely horrible and full of bullshit. However given access to someone who actually understands C++ for 3 weeks sounds enough to me.
 
6:55 PM
@Jefffrey I blame my violin teacher. He taught me a lot besides violin playing. I should contact him one day to tell him :)
 
Hmm there are strange noises outside. Must investigate..
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Ownership modelling, rule of zero, templates, not touching new, unique_ptr and when to actually use it and when it's not needed at all
 
It won't make you a committee member, but you'll get around doing your general purpose coding just fine.
 
user784668
@MartinJames Beer cans
 
Esp if they come from C#, new is a huge pitfall
 
6:56 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum been there, seen that: NO
 
@ThePhD Over a volcano. I want the zombies besieging the fortress to come through it and then some dorf will pull a lever and drop them to annihilation in the magma.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Still, I consider being effective in C++ also using std:: algorithms over home-made for loops when possible (see std::transform, std::rotate). And I'm pretty sure that's not taught in that book.
 
@CatPlusPlus book covers all that. It doesn't explicitly cover rule of zero but it encourages correct ownership management in collections and not implementing destructors/move/etc for no good reason.
 
Magma is the only way to be sure.
 
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes Is the mountain a huge face and the lava represent its tears?
 
6:56 PM
I was helping a friend with C++ assignments, and I came up with new things to tell him to avoid every time
2
 
what is it with you and tears
 
@Jefffrey get the pdf, look into it.
 
Ell
Has anyone here had experience with FPGAs?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Work as a programmer implies a "license" to engage in traffic on public roads. And no, that takes your month to get (feebly) started, and then either a year, or maybe 2 bigger, intensive projects (whichever takes shorter) to really get "safe enough". IMO
 
Don't mine butts
 
user3010322
6:57 PM
@Ell JerryCoffin does!
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Maybe later, I'm beginning to have an huge headache.
 
@EtiennedeMartel such trolling
 
The worst thing about C++ complexity is that listing all the possible traps is extremely hard
 
@BartoszKP I've seen student code, full of new arrays, pseudo GC on threads, lots of horrible stuff. I'm not saying anyone who will attempt to get C++ in 3 weeks will get competent in it - I'm saying I believe given the right training material and practice it's perfectly doable.
@CatPlusPlus you don't get even close to most of them though.
 
Because most of them is "when you see it, you should know what to do"
 
6:58 PM
Cats, making more cats:(
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum and infinitely times easier for C#/Java/Python
 
@sehe if "safe enough" is knowing all the hurt spots I'd say even more - if "safe enough" is to code well 99% of the time I disagree. I still discover hurt spots in Python or C# or JS every week.
 
@ThePhD I do no....well, okay, yes I do.
 
@sehe Modern covering what? In ML-land there are GADTs and effects, perhaps tweaks to module systems (I’m not up-to-speed on those); rank-n types are a bit more ubiquitous but I’m not sure ‘modern’ is what I would use. A lot of stuff is on the library side (e.g. iteratees), too, but that doesn’t seem relevant.
 
@BartoszKP Not argument there. I completely agree with that statement.
 
6:59 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum oh... seems I'm lost in the discussion then : D
 
C++ is more complicated than most general purpose languages today.
 
Ada is complex as well.
 
I wonder if I can anchor a bridge on another.
 
Tbh I don't know of a more complicated language than C++.
 
@VáclavZeman very, but people like it.
 

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